>-----Original Message-----
>From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of Arne Vajhøj via
>Info-vax
>Sent: December-20-21 2:50 PM
>To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>Cc: Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
>Subject: Re: [Info-vax] Where is EISNER:: and who funds it?
>
>On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is
>>>>>>> a pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20? That's what it was
>>>>>> running on last I heard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably none.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>>
>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is
>>>> the advantage
>>>
>>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire
>>> protection, access control etc..
>>>
>>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would not
>>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>>
>>>> of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>
>>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is probably not
>>> one of the bigger concerns.
>>>
>>
>> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
>> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place in the
>> hands of people you really don't know and have no control over. Maybe
>> I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't really see a reason
>> to trust strangers whose only real interest is how much the can get
>> out of my wallet.
>
>Capitalism is build on the idea that vendors provide what customers want
>because they make money by doing that.
>
>Arne

Outsourcing of different layers of the IT stack has been around for decades.

Today, one flavour of outsourcing is often referred to as Cloud i.e., giving part or all your IT stack to some external company for a fixed and/or variable monthly service charge for the resources consumed.

Another form of outsourcing is called collocation i.e. hosting company provides space, access control, fire mgmt., Internet access, cooling, remote access and very reliable power - typically in a tier 3 data centre. The Customer supplies rack equipment and manages all the rack gear themselves remotely. You can put whatever you want in the racks as costs are often based on rack space and/or by KW's used - not what is in the racks.

This is still a big business today. While managing, maintaining, and monitoring the equipment might viewed as strategic to a company, being in the DC business (power, AC, cooling, access security etc.) may not be viewed as strategic to the company's future. Hence, collocation might be a good option to look at.

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

In article <j2bs48Fb9fbU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?

Not the data, unless you allow them access to the system or don't trust
them. Advantages: guarded around the clock, no need to worry about
fires etc. when no-one is there, maybe cheaper electricity costs.

In article <j2budkFboiuU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
<bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:

> On 12/20/21 12:30 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >
> >> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
> >> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
> >
> > They provide the
> >
> > building
> > mains power
> > generator backup
> > ups backup
> > fire suppression
> > backbone network
> > cooling
> > security
> > access control
> > ...
>
> Still confused.
> If you are a functioning business I would expect you already have
> most if not all of that.

Depends on the size of the business.

On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle wrote:
>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>
>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>
>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20? That's what it was running on
>>> last I heard.
>>
>> Probably none.
>>
>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>> DS20 will fit.
>>
>
> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>
> bill
>
>

Better internet connections

Better power

Someone else to do misc things

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 12/20/21 1:44 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/20/2021 12:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/20/21 12:30 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>
>>> They provide the
>>>
>>> building
>>> mains power
>>> generator backup
>>> ups backup
>>> fire suppression
>>> backbone network
>>> cooling
>>> security
>>> access control
>>> ...
>>
>> Still confused.
>> If you are a functioning business I would expect you already have
>> most if not all of that.
>
> > Well, I'll admit that "generator backup" might not make the list
> > of things you have covered.
>
> I don't think normal businesses have Inergen fire suppression,
> two separate electricity feeds or two separate internet
> connections either.

Do you really need that for the one DS20 that was mentioned earlier?

>
>>                             And some of it at the bottom of the list
>> better than you are likely to have at a site not under your own
>> control.
>
> On the contrary.
>
> In an office people have a legitimate need to get into the building
> all the time so access control need to be practical. At a
> hosting facility visitors are way rare and they can check the
> technicians very carefully.

Is the computer going to be sitting in the middle of the lobby (like at
Cray :-)? Or locked away in a small room where visitors wouldn't even
see it or know of its presence? A closet would do in many cases.

>
> In an office people tend to like windows. Computers do not care
> so a hosting facility do not need windows.

Windows? Afraid someone will see the computer? Can't see in
the closet.

We keep hearing that it's about the cost. I wonder how much real
work has been done to determine if it actually does result in a
worthwhile cost savings. I have seen too many cases of actions
being taken "in order to save money" that result in more money
being spent and only changing who's budget that money came out
of.

bill

On 12/20/21 3:54 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <j2budkFboiuU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 12/20/21 12:30 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>
>>> They provide the
>>>
>>> building
>>> mains power
>>> generator backup
>>> ups backup
>>> fire suppression
>>> backbone network
>>> cooling
>>> security
>>> access control
>>> ...
>>
>> Still confused.
>> If you are a functioning business I would expect you already have
>> most if not all of that.
>
> Depends on the size of the business.
>

Very true. Earlier in this discussion a single DS20 was mentioned.
But, IMHO, if the desire is to save money I really don't see how
that is accomplished. Reminds me of things like AT&T's computer
business after the Judge Green decision. AT&T had a really nice
collection of systems from Micro to decent sized Mini. All based
on the WE3200 family of processors. And then one day someone
decided it would be better to convert all the 3B's to something
offered by NCR (68K's I'm pretty sure). And the result. AT&T
was ushered out of the computer business. Pr1me went the same
path. Outsourcing is not always a good business decision. And
when it comes to real security and the risks therein, I don't
think it ever is.

bill

On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20? That's what it was running
>>>>> on last I heard.
>>>>
>>>> Probably none.
>>>>
>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>
>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>> advantage
>>
>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire protection,
>> access control etc..
>>
>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would not
>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>
>>> of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>
>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is
>> probably not one of the bigger concerns.
>>
>
> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place
> in the hands of people you really don't know and have no control
> over. Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't
> really see a reason to trust strangers whose only real interest
> is how much the can get out of my wallet.
>
> bill
>

Do you trust the military to protect the country, or is every home heavily armed?

Do you grow all your own food?

Do you have your own water treatment plant? If you live in town.

Do you trust congress, uhh, wait, don't go there ..

There is economies of scale in many things. Of all the possible advantages, I'd
rate good internet connection(s) at or near the top of the list. Power also.

Ok, if you're Sandia Labs, no, you don't outsource. But for many, the service
would be better, and the cost less.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>On 2021-12-19, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>>
>> $EMPLOYER runs warehoused sized data centers with temperatures in the '80s.
>>
>
>Interesting. Add another 10 to 20 degrees and you can boil water
>for free. :-)

If you run your data center in the 80s instead of the 60s, you get a
considerably shorter lifespan on your hardware. Great decrease in MTTF
mostly due to capacitor failures but also CPU failures to a lesser extent.

But, many facilities replace their servers on a three-year cycle anyway, so
the shorter lifespan isn't much of an issue for them. Their systems don't
need to last very long anyway.

In some climates the cost savings is dramatic and more than makes up for
the cost of a reduced replacement cycle.

Of course, this all goes wrong once you start talking about anything other
than commodity servers. HPC systems, big shared memory machines, or people
forced to run older hardware definitely want to keep the temperatures down.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/20/2021 6:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/20/21 1:44 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/20/2021 12:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/20/21 12:30 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>>> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>>
>>>> They provide the
>>>>
>>>> building
>>>> mains power
>>>> generator backup
>>>> ups backup
>>>> fire suppression
>>>> backbone network
>>>> cooling
>>>> security
>>>> access control
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> Still confused.
>>> If you are a functioning business I would expect you already have
>>> most if not all of that.
>>
>>  > Well, I'll admit that "generator backup" might not make the list
>>  > of things you have covered.
>>
>> I don't think normal businesses have Inergen fire suppression,
>> two separate electricity feeds or two separate internet
>> connections either.
>
> Do you really need that for the one DS20 that was mentioned earlier?

It was one DECUS server that was put together with VSI own servers.

I would think VSI own servers were somewhat business critical.

Making the above list somewhere between "nice to have" and "must have".

>>>                             And some of it at the bottom of the list
>>> better than you are likely to have at a site not under your own
>>> control.
>>
>> On the contrary.
>>
>> In an office people have a legitimate need to get into the building
>> all the time so access control need to be practical. At a
>> hosting facility visitors are way rare and they can check the
>> technicians very carefully.
>
> Is the computer going to be sitting in the middle of the lobby (like at
> Cray :-)?  Or locked away in a small room where visitors wouldn't even
> see it or know of its presence?  A closet would do in many cases.

It is possible to secure a room in an office building, but not cheap.
The typical internal door and internal walls are not intended to keep
people out.

>> In an office people tend to like windows. Computers do not care
>> so a hosting facility do not need windows.
>
> Windows?  Afraid someone will see the computer?

Windows are a very easy way to gain access for the bad guys.

> Can't see in
> the closet.
>
> We keep hearing that it's about the cost.  I wonder how much real
> work has been done to determine if it actually does result in a
> worthwhile cost savings.  I have seen too many cases of actions
> being taken "in order to save money" that result in more money
> being spent and only changing who's budget that money came out
> of.

It happens.

But I don't think that is the case here.

Companies wanting to have the right solution will save money.

Most companies will pay more to have their servers properly hosted
instead of in a random closet. In which case it is more money, but
also getting a way better solution.

Arne

On 12/20/21 23:02, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/20/21 1:44 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/20/2021 12:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/20/21 12:30 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>>> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>>
>>>> They provide the
>>>>
>>>> building
>>>> mains power
>>>> generator backup
>>>> ups backup
>>>> fire suppression
>>>> backbone network
>>>> cooling
>>>> security
>>>> access control
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> Still confused.
>>> If you are a functioning business I would expect you already have
>>> most if not all of that.
>>
>> > Well, I'll admit that "generator backup" might not make the list
>> > of things you have covered.
>>
>> I don't think normal businesses have Inergen fire suppression,
>> two separate electricity feeds or two separate internet
>> connections either.
>
> Do you really need that for the one DS20 that was mentioned earlier?
>
>>
>>> And some of it at the bottom of the list
>>> better than you are likely to have at a site not under your own
>>> control.
>>
>> On the contrary.
>>
>> In an office people have a legitimate need to get into the building
>> all the time so access control need to be practical. At a
>> hosting facility visitors are way rare and they can check the
>> technicians very carefully.
>
> Is the computer going to be sitting in the middle of the lobby (like at
> Cray :-)? Or locked away in a small room where visitors wouldn't even
> see it or know of its presence? A closet would do in many cases.
>
>>
>> In an office people tend to like windows. Computers do not care
>> so a hosting facility do not need windows.
>
> Windows? Afraid someone will see the computer? Can't see in
> the closet.
>
> We keep hearing that it's about the cost. I wonder how much real
> work has been done to determine if it actually does result in a
> worthwhile cost savings. I have seen too many cases of actions
> being taken "in order to save money" that result in more money
> being spent and only changing who's budget that money came out
> of.
>
> bill

The real issue for many is none of the above, but security of data and
who has access to it. If the data is commercially sensitive, or for any
number of other reasons, the only way to be sure is to keep all the
data local. Less sensitive data may go to cloud, but they do go
down, sosing everything, so makes sense to keep a local backup at least.

I see Barclays Bank have recently signed a big deal with HPE for on
premises cloud. I guess they have their reasons...

Chris

On 12/20/21 4:55 PM, chris wrote:
> The real issue for many is none of the above, but security of data
> and who has access to it.

Where the data is located has little to do with it's security.

> If the data is commercially sensitive, or for any number of other
> reasons, the only way to be sure is to keep all the data local.

Compare and contrast fully patched system in a co-location facility /
Virtual Private Server in the cloud which is utilizing disk encryption,
can't decrypt anything (on boot) without (remote) operator interaction,
verses a server in an office that hasn't ever been patched and is
internet accessible.

I won't hesitate for an instance which system will keep data more secure.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 12/20/21 3:53 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <j2bs48Fb9fbU1@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon
> <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>> advantage of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>
> Not the data, unless you allow them access to the system

Allow them access? You handed it to them.

> or don't trust
> them.

What reason would you have to trust them?

> Advantages: guarded around the clock, no need to worry about
> fires etc. when no-one is there, maybe cheaper electricity costs.
>

I really don't see any of those as valid. Possibilities, maybe,
but not something I would put my trust in.

bill

On 12/20/21 6:08 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>> <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of
>>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>>>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20?  That's what it was
>>>>>> running
>>>>>> on last I heard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably none.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>>
>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>> advantage
>>>
>>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire protection,
>>> access control etc..
>>>
>>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would not
>>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>>
>>>>            of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>
>>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is
>>> probably not one of the bigger concerns.
>>>
>>
>> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
>> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place
>> in the hands of people you really don't know and have no control
>> over.  Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't
>> really see a reason to trust strangers whose only real interest
>> is how much the can get out of my wallet.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> Do you trust the military to protect the country, or is every home
> heavily armed?

I was a part of it for more than 20 years. I trust the military. A
lot more than I trust the politicians running this country. And, a
lot of homes are, in fact, heavily armed. A factor that is starting
to scare those politicians.

>
> Do you grow all your own food?

Nope.

>
> Do you have your own water treatment plant?  If you live in town.

Don't live in town. have my own well. When I lived in town
I bought separate drinking water. I once had my tap water tested
by the people who tested my pool water. It was unfit for use
in a swimming pool. I certainly wouldn't drink it.

>
> Do you trust congress,  uhh, wait, don't go there ..

:-)

>
> There is economies of scale in many things.  Of all the possible
> advantages, I'd rate good internet connection(s) at or near the top of
> the list.  Power also.
>
> Ok, if you're Sandia Labs, no, you don't outsource.  But for many, the
> service would be better, and the cost less.
>

And I still don't see how you draw that conclusion. It's really all
about trusting someone who has done nothing to win that trust.

bill

On 12/20/2021 8:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/20/21 6:08 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>>>>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20? That's what it was running
>>>>>>> on last I heard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably none.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>>> advantage
>>>>
>>>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>>>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire protection,
>>>> access control etc..
>>>>
>>>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would not
>>>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>>>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>>>
>>>>> of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>>
>>>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is
>>>> probably not one of the bigger concerns.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
>>> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place
>>> in the hands of people you really don't know and have no control
>>> over. Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't
>>> really see a reason to trust strangers whose only real interest
>>> is how much the can get out of my wallet.
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>
>> Do you trust the military to protect the country, or is every home heavily armed?
>
> I was a part of it for more than 20 years. I trust the military. A
> lot more than I trust the politicians running this country. And, a
> lot of homes are, in fact, heavily armed. A factor that is starting
> to scare those politicians.
>
>>
>> Do you grow all your own food?
>
> Nope.
>
>>
>> Do you have your own water treatment plant? If you live in town.
>
> Don't live in town. have my own well. When I lived in town
> I bought separate drinking water. I once had my tap water tested
> by the people who tested my pool water. It was unfit for use
> in a swimming pool. I certainly wouldn't drink it.
>
>>
>> Do you trust congress, uhh, wait, don't go there ..
>
> :-)
>
>>
>> There is economies of scale in many things. Of all the possible advantages,
>> I'd rate good internet connection(s) at or near the top of the list. Power also.
>>
>> Ok, if you're Sandia Labs, no, you don't outsource. But for many, the service
>> would be better, and the cost less.
>>
>
> And I still don't see how you draw that conclusion. It's really all
> about trusting someone who has done nothing to win that trust.
>
> bill

Ok, I'm beginning to think you're pulling a "Dave". Playing devil's advocate,
just for the fun of it.

Do you trust the grocery store to sell you edible food? Why? What have they
done to earn your trust?

It's the same for many things. Businesses provide services. What's so
different about some hosting company? It's just another business service, and
yes, some may be better than others, customer beware, check out your service
suppliers, for everything, not just computer system hosting. It's like avoiding
a grocery which always has rotten produce.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

I don't know what type of datacenter you guys are referencing when you say that they have access to your data. I have 2 clients using the same datacenter and neither has access to the other's equipment at all. There are multiple options available for clients. Either a locked rack (or racks) or a locked "cage" where your racks are surrounded by a literal cage. Yes, the datacenter operational staff has access to both using keys, but that is usually for changing tapes or drives with instructions from the system owners. Any additional access by terminal etc. is no different than it would be for any user.

The advantages of using a datacenter are usually around redundant power and internet. In the center referenced above, they have 2 separate power feeds from 2 different locations so that if one power circuit fails, the other is there. Add to that the on-site generator and you have power for almost all conditions. There are internet connections available from multiple carriers to cover when one carrier fails. One of the major cable companies had the entire eat coast access go down for a whle a few years ago. Access for my client's customers was not impacted at all, the other internet connections took over without any intervention.

No small company would be able to foot the cost of all of the redundancy required for a 24x7 operation. Yes, the datacenter costs more than the traditional in-house setup, but has more flexibility and the additional cost for all of that redundancy is far less than having it local.

Dan

On 12/20/21 11:32 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/20/2021 8:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/20/21 6:08 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>> <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker
>>>>>>>>>>> Halle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple
>>>>>>>>>>>> of years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>>>>>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20?  That's what it
>>>>>>>> was running
>>>>>>>> on last I heard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Probably none.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> advantage
>>>>>
>>>>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>>>>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire protection,
>>>>> access control etc..
>>>>>
>>>>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would not
>>>>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>>>>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>>>>
>>>>>>            of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>>>
>>>>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is
>>>>> probably not one of the bigger concerns.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
>>>> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place
>>>> in the hands of people you really don't know and have no control
>>>> over.  Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't
>>>> really see a reason to trust strangers whose only real interest
>>>> is how much the can get out of my wallet.
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you trust the military to protect the country, or is every home
>>> heavily armed?
>>
>> I was a part of it for more than 20 years.  I trust the military.  A
>> lot more than I trust the politicians running this country.  And, a
>> lot of homes are, in fact, heavily armed.  A factor that is starting
>> to scare those politicians.
>>
>>>
>>> Do you grow all your own food?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>>
>>> Do you have your own water treatment plant?  If you live in town.
>>
>> Don't live in town.  have my own well.  When I lived in town
>> I bought separate drinking water.  I once had my tap water tested
>> by the people who tested my pool water.  It was unfit for use
>> in a swimming pool.  I certainly wouldn't drink it.
>>
>>>
>>> Do you trust congress,  uhh, wait, don't go there ..
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>>
>>> There is economies of scale in many things.  Of all the possible
>>> advantages,
>>> I'd rate good internet connection(s) at or near the top of the list.
>>> Power also.
>>>
>>> Ok, if you're Sandia Labs, no, you don't outsource.  But for many,
>>> the service
>>> would be better, and the cost less.
>>>
>>
>> And I still don't see how you draw that conclusion.  It's really all
>> about trusting someone who has done nothing to win that trust.
>>
>> bill
>
> Ok, I'm beginning to think you're pulling a "Dave".  Playing devil's
> advocate, just for the fun of it.

No, I seriously believe all this cloud crap is a really bad idea.

>
> Do you trust the grocery store to sell you edible food?  Why?  What have
> they done to earn your trust?

Apples and oranges, but anyway.

They have nothing to gain from poisoning me. The cloud providers
have a lot to gain by acquiring my data. And access to my wallet.

>
> It's the same for many things.  Businesses provide services.  What's so
> different about some hosting company?  It's just another business
> service, and yes, some may be better than others, customer beware, check
> out your service suppliers, for everything, not just computer system
> hosting.  It's like avoiding a grocery which always has rotten produce.
>

One of the big difference is that in many cases you really don't have
an alternative to the grocery store. If you live in NYC your not going
to have a farm to grow your own. But in the case of the cloud, you
do have an alternative. And, it is one you can trust. Unless you don't
trust yourself. :-) I know it is mostly about cost, but just like the
constant argument about true cost of TCO I think more people need to
consider the true cost of outsourcing and that includes the risk. Much
more today than in the past.

bill

On 12/21/21 00:46, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 12/20/21 4:55 PM, chris wrote:
>> The real issue for many is none of the above, but security of data and
>> who has access to it.
>
> Where the data is located has little to do with it's security.

If you say so, but ridiculous comment really.

>
>> If the data is commercially sensitive, or for any number of other
>> reasons, the only way to be sure is to keep all the data local.
>
> Compare and contrast fully patched system in a co-location facility /
> Virtual Private Server in the cloud which is utilizing disk encryption,
> can't decrypt anything (on boot) without (remote) operator interaction,
> verses a server in an office that hasn't ever been patched and is
> internet accessible.

Cherry picking the most extreme cases as an example is hardly a valid
argument.

What was that date center that burned down recently ?, took weeks to
get all the customers back up and running and understand that some are
still waiting. Ok, rare event, but trust an external supplier like
that and you really need to understand the risks. That's why companies
with long experience of IT, like Barclays, choose to keep all data local
onsite...

Chris

>
> I won't hesitate for an instance which system will keep data more secure.
>
>
>

On 12/21/2021 8:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/20/21 11:32 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 12/20/2021 8:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/20/21 6:08 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker Halle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there is a
>>>>>>>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20? That's what it was running
>>>>>>>>> on last I heard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Probably none.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>>>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly is the
>>>>>>> advantage
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>>>>>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire protection,
>>>>>> access control etc..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would not
>>>>>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>>>>>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is
>>>>>> probably not one of the bigger concerns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
>>>>> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place
>>>>> in the hands of people you really don't know and have no control
>>>>> over. Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't
>>>>> really see a reason to trust strangers whose only real interest
>>>>> is how much the can get out of my wallet.
>>>>>
>>>>> bill
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you trust the military to protect the country, or is every home heavily
>>>> armed?
>>>
>>> I was a part of it for more than 20 years. I trust the military. A
>>> lot more than I trust the politicians running this country. And, a
>>> lot of homes are, in fact, heavily armed. A factor that is starting
>>> to scare those politicians.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you grow all your own food?
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you have your own water treatment plant? If you live in town.
>>>
>>> Don't live in town. have my own well. When I lived in town
>>> I bought separate drinking water. I once had my tap water tested
>>> by the people who tested my pool water. It was unfit for use
>>> in a swimming pool. I certainly wouldn't drink it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you trust congress, uhh, wait, don't go there ..
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is economies of scale in many things. Of all the possible advantages,
>>>> I'd rate good internet connection(s) at or near the top of the list. Power
>>>> also.
>>>>
>>>> Ok, if you're Sandia Labs, no, you don't outsource. But for many, the service
>>>> would be better, and the cost less.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And I still don't see how you draw that conclusion. It's really all
>>> about trusting someone who has done nothing to win that trust.
>>>
>>> bill
>>
>> Ok, I'm beginning to think you're pulling a "Dave". Playing devil's advocate,
>> just for the fun of it.
>
> No, I seriously believe all this cloud crap is a really bad idea.
>
>>
>> Do you trust the grocery store to sell you edible food? Why? What have they
>> done to earn your trust?
>
> Apples and oranges, but anyway.
>
> They have nothing to gain from poisoning me. The cloud providers
> have a lot to gain by acquiring my data. And access to my wallet.
>
>>
>> It's the same for many things. Businesses provide services. What's so
>> different about some hosting company? It's just another business service, and
>> yes, some may be better than others, customer beware, check out your service
>> suppliers, for everything, not just computer system hosting. It's like
>> avoiding a grocery which always has rotten produce.
>>
>
> One of the big difference is that in many cases you really don't have
> an alternative to the grocery store. If you live in NYC your not going
> to have a farm to grow your own. But in the case of the cloud, you
> do have an alternative. And, it is one you can trust. Unless you don't
> trust yourself. :-) I know it is mostly about cost, but just like the
> constant argument about true cost of TCO I think more people need to
> consider the true cost of outsourcing and that includes the risk. Much
> more today than in the past.
>
> bill

Uhh ... Bill ...

WE AIN'T TALKING ABOUT "CLOUD" !!!!!!!!!!

We're talking about a facility where you can install and run your equipment!

A facility that provides a service. Like renting a place with special
equipment, capabilities, protections, and such. Maybe like an apartment
building with multiple renters of apartments. Common services for each renter.
It's still your equipment. It's still your data.

Go elsewhere if you want to rant about "the cloud". Not here.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 12/21/21 9:21 AM, chris wrote:
> If you say so, but ridiculous comment really.

Is it?

> Cherry picking the most extreme cases as an example is hardly a valid
> argument.

The example I used isn't that extreme. I know many people that are
using disk encryption in the cloud and many people that aren't doing so
on premise.

Didn't you cherry pick an extreme case too?

> What was that date center that burned down recently ?, took weeks to
> get all the customers back up and running and understand that some
> are still waiting.

I think you're talking about OVH.

> Ok, rare event, but trust an external supplier like that and you really
> need to understand the risks. That's why companies with long experience
> of IT, like Barclays, choose to keep all data local onsite...

What difference would it have made for clients if the fire had been in
their own on-premise data center with the same state of backups? Would
the location of the fire have really made that much difference to their
operation?

I maintain that things (equipment gets stolen, fire, floods, etc) happen
and that what happens is somewhat independent of the location (3rd
party, 1st party, etc).

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 12/21/21 11:45 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/21/2021 8:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/20/21 11:32 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2021 8:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/21 6:08 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>> On 12/20/2021 1:00 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/20/21 12:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:16 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/20/21 8:12 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/20/2021 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 6:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/19/2021 5:32 PM, VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>>>> <a6553b0e-2769-49cd-9bf6-5e361524a8dcn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "alanfe...@gmail.com" <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 19, 2021 at 5:43:26 AM UTC-5, Volker
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EISNER is co-located in a data center of VSI since a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Volker.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you know what city? Whose data center? Just curious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, VSI is in Burlington.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Given the size of VSI and the fact that it is 2021 then there
>>>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>>> pretty big probability that they use external hosting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many external hosting sites offer a DS20?  That's what it
>>>>>>>>>> was running
>>>>>>>>>> on last I heard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Probably none.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But a lot of hosting facilities offer rack space where a
>>>>>>>>> DS20 will fit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you are providing the hardware and the software what exactly
>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>> advantage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You get a specialist to handle all the computer room / data center
>>>>>>> work: power incl. UPS, cooling, network connectivity, fire
>>>>>>> protection,
>>>>>>> access control etc..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A small company could do all that themselves, but either it would
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be done right or it would be way more expensive than paying someone
>>>>>>> that does it for thousands of customers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>            of putting your data in someone else's hands?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The risk that the hosting provide would steal data is
>>>>>>> probably not one of the bigger concerns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not just the hosting company's employees you need to fear.
>>>>>> I don't understand all the trust people seem willing to place
>>>>>> in the hands of people you really don't know and have no control
>>>>>> over.  Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age but I don't
>>>>>> really see a reason to trust strangers whose only real interest
>>>>>> is how much the can get out of my wallet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you trust the military to protect the country, or is every home
>>>>> heavily
>>>>> armed?
>>>>
>>>> I was a part of it for more than 20 years.  I trust the military.  A
>>>> lot more than I trust the politicians running this country.  And, a
>>>> lot of homes are, in fact, heavily armed.  A factor that is starting
>>>> to scare those politicians.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you grow all your own food?
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have your own water treatment plant?  If you live in town.
>>>>
>>>> Don't live in town.  have my own well.  When I lived in town
>>>> I bought separate drinking water.  I once had my tap water tested
>>>> by the people who tested my pool water.  It was unfit for use
>>>> in a swimming pool.  I certainly wouldn't drink it.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you trust congress,  uhh, wait, don't go there ..
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is economies of scale in many things.  Of all the possible
>>>>> advantages,
>>>>> I'd rate good internet connection(s) at or near the top of the
>>>>> list.  Power
>>>>> also.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, if you're Sandia Labs, no, you don't outsource.  But for many,
>>>>> the service
>>>>> would be better, and the cost less.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And I still don't see how you draw that conclusion.  It's really all
>>>> about trusting someone who has done nothing to win that trust.
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm beginning to think you're pulling a "Dave".  Playing devil's
>>> advocate,
>>> just for the fun of it.
>>
>> No, I seriously believe all this cloud crap is a really bad idea.
>>
>>>
>>> Do you trust the grocery store to sell you edible food?  Why?  What
>>> have they
>>> done to earn your trust?
>>
>> Apples and oranges, but anyway.
>>
>> They have nothing to gain from poisoning  me.  The cloud providers
>> have a lot to gain by acquiring my data.  And access to my wallet.
>>
>>>
>>> It's the same for many things.  Businesses provide services.  What's so
>>> different about some hosting company?  It's just another business
>>> service, and
>>> yes, some may be better than others, customer beware, check out your
>>> service
>>> suppliers, for everything, not just computer system hosting.  It's like
>>> avoiding a grocery which always has rotten produce.
>>>
>>
>> One of the big difference is that in many cases you really don't have
>> an alternative to the grocery store.  If you live in NYC your not going
>> to have a farm to grow your own.   But  in the case of the cloud, you
>> do have an alternative.  And, it is one you can trust.  Unless you don't
>> trust yourself. :-)  I know it is mostly about cost, but just like the
>> constant argument about true cost of TCO I think  more people need to
>> consider the true cost of outsourcing and that includes the risk. Much
>> more today than in the past.
>>
>> bill
>
> Uhh ... Bill ...
>
> WE AIN'T TALKING ABOUT "CLOUD" !!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Dave. When it leaves your control and goes to someone else's
it all looks like cloud to me.

>
> We're talking about a facility where you can install and run your
> equipment!

With someone else having complete access to your system and all its
data?

>
> A facility that provides a service.  Like renting a place with special
> equipment, capabilities, protections, and such.  Maybe like an apartment
> building with multiple renters of apartments.  Common services for each
> renter. It's still your equipment.  It's still your data.

Except that someone other than you has full access to it.

>
> Go elsewhere if you want to rant about "the cloud".  Not here.
>

On 12/21/21 6:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> No, I seriously believe all this cloud crap is a really bad idea.

I agree.

IMHO, "the cloud" is /just/ another data center /somewhere/. I probably
don't have any physical access to it. Thus I have to rely on other
people to do the physical part of the work. -- But I have to
administer servers in the cloud just like I have to administer servers
in my companies on-premise data center.

That's one type of "cloud", namely the (virtual) "system" level.
Another type of cloud is at the "service" level, a la. outsourcing email
to someone like Google's Gmail / Microsoft's Office 365.

IMHO "the cloud" is a marketing buzz word.

I will say, that cloud tends to have one very strong advantage, and
that's business / legal which is decidedly non-technical, in a word
"contract". More precisely "contractual obligations". Businesses can
hold other businesses accountable for things, meaning that they can sue
if the other business fails to uphold the contractual obligations.
That's something that is quite a bit more difficult to do with an employee.

Similarly, "the cloud" provides abstraction for physical problems much
like renting provides abstractions from property maintenance issues.
Much like renting a car and swapping for the newer model every 18-24 months.

> Apples and oranges, but anyway.

Not really.

Either you trust that someone does something; sells you safe food /
hosts your systems or data in a safe way, or you do not.

> They have nothing to gain from poisoning me.

Your repeat business and word of mouth poisoning their reputation seems
like something to gain from you.

> The cloud providers have a lot to gain by acquiring my data.
> And access to my wallet.

And yet, safe for a few specific cases, e.g. Gmail, almost all cloud
providers aren't accessing your data, much less the source of data
leaks. Rather it's almost all of the data leaks are from mis-configured
systems / services located /somewhere/. And that mis-configuration is
almost always based on the 1st party (not) doing something (they should
have).

There is very little difference in posting sensitive data to the website
document root on a local server verses a cloud provider server. Someone
in the company still did a dumb. Where the server is doesn't matter
much in this case.

> One of the big difference is that in many cases you really don't
> have an alternative to the grocery store. If you live in NYC your
> not going to have a farm to grow your own.

Buying your food vs growing your food, sure.

But I'll almost guarantee that you have multiple choices as to where you
buy your food from. There are probably multiple grocery stores within a
reasonable commute and almost certainly multiple, if not many,
restaurants and / or gas stations / vending machines that sell food.
Admittedly the quality and desirability of the food will likely vary
SIGNIFICANTLY. But there are probably many places that you can get
sustenance in your proximity.

> But in the case of the cloud, you do have an alternative. And, it
> is one you can trust. Unless you don't trust yourself. :-)

I know a bunch of people that have pretended to be computer people and
failed absolutely miserably. Yet hardly any of them will even attempt
to be a plumber / mechanic / carpenter / doctor / etc.

> I know it is mostly about cost,

Cost is just one aspect.

Convenience is another.

One of the bigger ones that I see people doing is outsourcing their
email to ... email professionals. Very similarly to how many small
businesses outsource their book keeping to CPAs or legal work to
lawyers. Nothing is preventing these same businesses from doing their
own book keeping or representing themselves in court. Yet they choose
to outsource. I wonder why that is?

Another big reason is (perceived) expertise. As in the outsourced party
is probably better at doing $THING than doing it in house.

> but just like the constant argument about true cost of TCO I think
> more people need to consider the true cost of outsourcing and that
> includes the risk. Much more today than in the past.

Cost is usually likened to fiduciary currency. But cost can be many
different things; time, corruption (data integrity), privacy (data
confidentiality).

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 12/21/21 10:31 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> Sorry Dave. When it leaves your control and goes to someone else's
> it all looks like cloud to me.

Cloud is a somewhat new term that tends to be all encompassing of
"someone else's problem / responsibility" read: "not my problem / not my
responsibility".

> With someone else having complete access to your system and all
> its data?

"Cloud" does *NOT* imply that someone else has access to my systems,
much less /complete/ access to them. Nor does anyone at the VPS
provider I use have /any/ knowledge of what my disk encryption keys are.

Some cloud offerings /do/ mean that level of access. But there are
other cloud offerings that are simply "rent this bare metal from us and
do with it what you want to we can't / won't log into it".

> Except that someone other than you has full access to it.

Not all rental properties come with full access. I've had many clients
that had explicit clauses that landlords were expressly forbidden from
being on the property / in the place /without/ the tenant being there.
So much so that the tenant replaced all the locks & keys at their whim
without telling the landlord. The only hard requirement was that the
tenant had to coordinate with the fire department to put a current key
in the Knox Box, which the landlord has no access to.

There are all sorts of rental agreements. Not all of them imply that
the owner / landlord has physical access.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 2021-12-20, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, I'm beginning to think you're pulling a "Dave". Playing devil's advocate,
> just for the fun of it.
>
> Do you trust the grocery store to sell you edible food? Why? What have they
> done to earn your trust?
>

I don't need to trust the grocery store or supermarket (unless special
cooling handling is required) because they are just a reseller of other
companies products (and any fresh food they may sell can be easily
inspected for quality). I place more trust (but not absolute trust) in
any well-known brands they sell because those brands have a reputation
to maintain.

It's the same reason I won't buy el-cheapo battery storage banks but will
spend more money to buy a well-known branded product. If the branded
product has a safety problem, that's instant massive reputation damage
for them so they are motivated to reduce the chances of that happening.

Even so, branded lithium rechargable battery fires do still occur, so
nothing is 100% safe.

> It's the same for many things. Businesses provide services. What's so
> different about some hosting company? It's just another business service, and
> yes, some may be better than others, customer beware, check out your service
> suppliers, for everything, not just computer system hosting. It's like avoiding
> a grocery which always has rotten produce.
>

Reputation matters. It's also the same reason why many people will not
buy an el-cheapo CAT off Amazon (for example) but will instead spend
more money buying one from a high-quality well-known medical supplies
vendor.

The problem is that some people seem to want to invest in el-cheapo
hosting instead of going to a vendor who builds business based on
reputation. Hopefully VSI selected the latter kind of vendor. :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2021-12-21, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> With someone else having complete access to your system and all its
> data?
>

Your operating system vendor has complete access to your data and your
secrets. Do you trust them ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Den 2021-12-21 kl. 19:54, skrev Simon Clubley:
> On 2021-12-21, Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> With someone else having complete access to your system and all its
>> data?
>>
>
> Your operating system vendor has complete access to your data and your
> secrets.

What do you mean?

Would VSI have complete access to our data, if it was stored on an
OpenVMS instance running at Azure or AWS? How would that work?

> Do you trust them ?

In this case, VSI? To not tamper with our data? Yes I do.

>
> Simon.
>