On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:57:12 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 12:21:27 PM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> > On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
>> > >> ID ...
>> > >
>> > > From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>> > > their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
>> > > Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>> > > Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
>> > > valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>> > >
>> > > First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a
>> > > good idea for America.
>> > >
>> > > Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
>> > > from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse
>> > > to let the government track our movements.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>> > 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>> >
>> > I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>> > identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>> >
>> > https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID system, if such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>
>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of America, much more than it is in the more
>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID is probably a driver's license, but those who can't
>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose physical capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>> do have a right to vote.
>>
>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever hoops are necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
>> That might include showing up at some remote office with - what? A birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people we're typically discussing, those documents may not be
>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of Elections may be tricky to arrange. The project is something
>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>
>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones most likely to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>> and those same people are more likely to face difficulties acquiring mandated IDs. It's just not an issue for, say,
>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their SUV and flash their driver's license. The poor old guy
>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the guy who has to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an hour,
>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told "Well, you should have started the process a month ago,
>> by applying for an ID" .
>>
>> And why is this now such an important issue, and overwhelmingly in states controlled by Republicans? Because five or
>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election? There's no evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases of individual
>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or dishonestly voting Republican. ISTM that the reason is strategists know
>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor people are statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>
>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar code system that identifies every voter plus their residence and
>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep government out of my Social Security" crowd?
>
>You can't make it through a single day without some blatantly racist comments can you? Do you also believe that the "Jews" are still trying to take over the world? Your unshakeable belief that blacks and Hispanics and Asians aren't smart enough to cash their own paychecks without you holding their hand and showing them how shows your charter membership to the Democrat Party. Rather than coming out and using politically incorrect term you label them as "poor"
>
>By the way poor people overwhelmingly elected Trump https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/
>
>Of course to people like flunky, he much prefers lies to the truth.

Your reference says that:

Highly educated majority-minority counties shifted toward Clinton
and
Low-education majority-minority counties shifted toward Trump

So your thrilling post should have read , in common, every day,
Americanese, "the Dumb Asses voted for Trump" (like Tommy?)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/24/2022 3:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> By the way poor people overwhelmingly elected Trump https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/

Tom, I'm sorry to say this, but you were apparently unable to comprehend
the point of yet another article you cited.

The point of that article was that people who were more educated tended
to vote for Clinton. People who were less educated tended to vote for
Trump. And the analyst says that education difference was much more
powerful than the effect of income levels.

How's your wife's reading comprehension? Can she help explain these
articles to you?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the papers to
>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the polls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt countries
>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts and
>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>
>>>
>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>
>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>
>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>> for America.
>>
>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>> government track our movements.
>
> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>

On 1/24/2022 5:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:21:26 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
>>>>> ID ...
>>>>
>>>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>>>> their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
>>>> Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>>>> Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
>>>> valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>
>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a
>>>> good idea for America.
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
>>>> from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse
>>>> to let the government track our movements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>>>
>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>>>
>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>>
>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID system, if such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>
>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of America, much more than it is in the more
>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID is probably a driver's license, but those who can't
>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose physical capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>> do have a right to vote.
>>
>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever hoops are necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
>> That might include showing up at some remote office with - what? A birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people we're typically discussing, those documents may not be
>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of Elections may be tricky to arrange. The project is something
>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>
>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones most likely to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>> and those same people are more likely to face difficulties acquiring mandated IDs. It's just not an issue for, say,
>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their SUV and flash their driver's license. The poor old guy
>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the guy who has to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an hour,
>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told "Well, you should have started the process a month ago,
>> by applying for an ID" .
>>
>> And why is this now such an important issue, and overwhelmingly in states controlled by Republicans? Because five or
>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election? There's no evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases of individual
>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or dishonestly voting Republican. ISTM that the reason is strategists know
>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor people are statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>
>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar code system that identifies every voter plus their residence and
>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep government out of my Social Security" crowd?
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Years ago... way back when people wrote checks to pay bills I used to
> get asked for my driver's license as proof I was who I said I was
> before anyone would accept a check and I had an awful time as at the
> time I had a New Hampshire driver's license which didn't have a photo.
> But in actual fact there are all sorts of identity checks available to
> the government. there is even a national fingerprint "library"
> https://www.fbi.gov/services/information-management/foipa/privacy-impact-assessments/iafis
> Pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 534, the FBI acquires, collects, classifies,
> and preserves identification, criminal identification, crime, and
> other records and exchanges such records and information with, and for
> the official use of, authorized officials of the Government, including
> the United States Sentencing Commission, the States, cities, and penal
> and other institutions. Since 1924, the FBI has collected, preserved,
> classified, and exchanged fingerprint records in support of its
> identification activities.
>
> Categories of fingerprints currently maintained in the Fingerprint
> Identification Record System (FIRS) includes: criminal fingerprints,
> federal applicants and employees, United States military, aliens, and
> those submitted to the FBI by persons desiring to have their
> fingerprints placed on record for personal identification purposes.
> Additionally, fingerprints of military detainees and other persons of
> national security interest are now being collected for national
> security purposes.
>
> So Tommy, who was in the military has his fingerprints in the National
> "Library"
>

I think it's even larger for prints and now we have DNA
libraries as well. When I owned a bar/restaurant, the liquor
license required (in person at the Clerk's office) photo ID,
set of fingerprints and $5.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/24/2022 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 2:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
>>>>> ID ...
>>>>
>>>>  From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>>>> their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
>>>> Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>>>> Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
>>>> valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>
>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a
>>>> good idea for America.
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
>>>> from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse
>>>> to let the government track our movements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>>>
>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>>>
>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>>>
>>
>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID system, if
>> such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>
>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of America,
>> much more than it is in the more
>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID is probably a
>> driver's license, but those who can't
>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose physical
>> capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>> do have a right to vote.
>>
>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever hoops are
>> necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
>> That might include showing up at some remote office with - what? A
>> birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people we're typically
>> discussing, those documents may not be
>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of Elections may
>> be tricky to arrange. The project is something
>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>
>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones most likely
>> to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>> and those same people are more likely to face difficulties acquiring
>> mandated IDs. It's just not an issue for, say,
>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their SUV and flash
>> their driver's license. The poor old guy
>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the guy who has
>> to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an hour,
>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told "Well, you
>> should have started the process a month ago,
>> by applying for an ID" .
>>
>> And why is this now such an important issue, and overwhelmingly in
>> states controlled by Republicans? Because five or
>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election? There's no
>> evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases of individual
>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or dishonestly voting
>> Republican. ISTM that the reason is strategists know
>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor people are
>> statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>
>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar code system
>> that identifies every voter plus their residence and
>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep government out of my
>> Social Security" crowd?
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
>> "... driver's license, but those who can't afford to drive don't get
>> those..."
> Every State offers equivalent ID card to non-drivers. AFAIK at zero or
> minimal cost. It's more about liquor and tobacco than voting but it's a
> policy of long standing.

That may be true. It does not rebut the points I made above.

> > " So they can apply ahead of time,..."
> So what? We used to require a citizen to drag his ass to the County
> Clerk's office 30+ days before an election to register as a voter. I
> have no problem with that and in fact it was a better system, less prone
> to the many and various anomalies we now suffer.

There have always been and will always be anomalies; there seems to be
no _real_ evidence that the last election was materially affected by
them. (As has been pointed out, Republicans not named "Trump" did rather
well.)

But if your "30 day in advance" system were to be applied, history hints
that it would be applied by Republican dominated states, and in a way
that would disadvantage darker folk. 100 years ago, it would have been
applied to disadvantage Italians, Poles and other suspicious ethnic
groups. Society has broadly decided similar tactics were unethical. One
party is now trying to turn back the clock.

> > "(oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!)"
> The currently publicized Statute is in direct response to flagrant
> electioneering in that State November 2020. And therefore, it's popular
> with voters. You don't like it? Run for Georgia Assembly or State Senate.

Andrew, that's an attempt to shut down discussion. Sorry, I did my time
in the Deep South. I'll not return.

Whatever the motivation, you'd prohibit giving a person a bottle of
water to someone sweltering in a long line waiting to vote? That's
inhumane and ludicrous. It deserves the scorn it's receiving.

> in re Japan:
>
> Although I look favorably to Japan and respect the general system of
> Singapore, I could not live comfortably in either place. For the same
> reason I haven't been even near a US airport since the middle of the
> Clinton administration; I would likely be arrested for one thing or
> another.

Well, we differ. I've flown many times, domestically and
internationally. My worst hassle was, once, getting two folding bikes
packed barely in time to catch a plane.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/24/2022 6:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the
>>>>>>>>>> papers to
>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the
>>>>>>>> polls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt
>>>>>>> countries
>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>>
>>>  From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>
>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>>> for America.
>>>
>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>>> government track our movements.
>>
>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>
>
> The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html

On 1/24/2022 6:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/24/2022 2:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
>>>>>> ID ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Â From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>>>>> their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
>>>>> Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>>>>> Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
>>>>> valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>>
>>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card
>>>>> is a
>>>>> good idea for America.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
>>>>> from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a
>>>>> ruse
>>>>> to let the government track our movements.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>>>>
>>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID
>>> system, if such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>>
>>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of
>>> America, much more than it is in the more
>>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID
>>> is probably a driver's license, but those who can't
>>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose
>>> physical capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>>> do have a right to vote.
>>>
>>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever
>>> hoops are necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
>>> That might include showing up at some remote office with
>>> - what? A birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people
>>> we're typically discussing, those documents may not be
>>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of
>>> Elections may be tricky to arrange. The project is something
>>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>>
>>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones
>>> most likely to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>>> and those same people are more likely to face
>>> difficulties acquiring mandated IDs. It's just not an
>>> issue for, say,
>>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their
>>> SUV and flash their driver's license. The poor old guy
>>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the
>>> guy who has to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an
>>> hour,
>>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told
>>> "Well, you should have started the process a month ago,
>>> by applying for an ID" .
>>>
>>> And why is this now such an important issue, and
>>> overwhelmingly in states controlled by Republicans?
>>> Because five or
>>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election?
>>> There's no evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases
>>> of individual
>>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or
>>> dishonestly voting Republican. ISTM that the reason is
>>> strategists know
>>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor
>>> people are statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>>
>>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar
>>> code system that identifies every voter plus their
>>> residence and
>>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep
>>> government out of my Social Security" crowd?
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>>> "... driver's license, but those who can't afford to
>>> drive don't get those..."
>> Every State offers equivalent ID card to non-drivers.
>> AFAIK at zero or minimal cost. It's more about liquor and
>> tobacco than voting but it's a policy of long standing.
>
> That may be true. It does not rebut the points I made above.
>
>> > " So they can apply ahead of time,..."
>> So what? We used to require a citizen to drag his ass to
>> the County Clerk's office 30+ days before an election to
>> register as a voter. I have no problem with that and in
>> fact it was a better system, less prone to the many and
>> various anomalies we now suffer.
>
> There have always been and will always be anomalies; there
> seems to be no _real_ evidence that the last election was
> materially affected by them. (As has been pointed out,
> Republicans not named "Trump" did rather well.)
>
> But if your "30 day in advance" system were to be applied,
> history hints that it would be applied by Republican
> dominated states, and in a way that would disadvantage
> darker folk. 100 years ago, it would have been applied to
> disadvantage Italians, Poles and other suspicious ethnic
> groups. Society has broadly decided similar tactics were
> unethical. One party is now trying to turn back the clock.
>
>> > "(oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!)"
>> The currently publicized Statute is in direct response to
>> flagrant electioneering in that State November 2020. And
>> therefore, it's popular with voters. You don't like it?
>> Run for Georgia Assembly or State Senate.
>
> Andrew, that's an attempt to shut down discussion. Sorry, I
> did my time in the Deep South. I'll not return.
>
> Whatever the motivation, you'd prohibit giving a person a
> bottle of water to someone sweltering in a long line waiting
> to vote? That's inhumane and ludicrous. It deserves the
> scorn it's receiving.
>
>> in re Japan:
>>
>> Although I look favorably to Japan and respect the general
>> system of Singapore, I could not live comfortably in
>> either place. For the same reason I haven't been even near
>> a US airport since the middle of the Clinton
>> administration; I would likely be arrested for one thing
>> or another.
>
> Well, we differ. I've flown many times, domestically and
> internationally. My worst hassle was, once, getting two
> folding bikes packed barely in time to catch a plane.
>

I can't overlook that racist crap right here on RBT. You
should know better. What exactly about a man's skin color
keeps him from functioning in civil society as any other
American? My son in law manages, and he's naturalized.
Christ give it a rest already. Racism reflects poorly on you.

Under five minutes with actual Americans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs

Besides, facts ought to matter:
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/record-high-turnout-in-2020-general-election.html

And a lot of your preconceived racist ideas run smack into
facts:

https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls

As I mentioned here recently, the 14th Amendment proscribes
States from statutorily violating individual civil rights.
Which is a good thing. And effective enforcement of that has
broken the democrat party's hold on the South.

I also lived and worked in the South. Nothing bad to say
about it. My experience may be different from yours in that
I was a minority at my workplace.

OK, I have one complaint; you can't get grits with breakfast
in Wisconsin. Plate always seems bare...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/24/2022 7:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >
> [Tom's] resume under Datum says:
> Provided customer service and applications interfacing
> for customers on the VME products line. Provided
> technical support to important customers such as NASA
> International Space Station Project and other NASA
> projects, Motorola, Ericsson Telephone, Lockheed
> Aerospace and others. Wrote technical manuals, reference
> manuals, corrected sales brochures, etc.
> Technical support, writing tech manuals, reference manuals, and sales
> brochures is not design engineering.

That's true.

Somewhat related: The first Robotics Programming class I attended (along
with at least a dozen other engineers, mostly from Ford Motor Company)
was taught by a very charming and rather sexy young woman. She did a
really excellent job, both in the classroom and out in the lab where we
worked with the robots.

In conversation, I asked her what her background was. Turns out she had
a degree in English, got hired as a secretary, and was put on the team
that wrote the programming manual for the robots. Those were Nachi
robots, re-branded as GE robots, and I suppose writing the manual
consisted largely of decoding and re-writing the Japanese version of
English.

In any case, in the course of decoding and re-writing, she became a
rather expert robot programmer, enough that she began teaching the class
to engineers.

However, she did not pretend to be an engineer.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/24/2022 6:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 6:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8,
>>>>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> so many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was
>>>>>>>>>>>> heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one
>>>>>>>>>>>> might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper
>>>>>>>>>>> and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to
>>>>>>>>>>> show the papers to
>>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and
>>>>>>>>>>> apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was
>>>>>>>>>> denied on
>>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some
>>>>>>>>>> flagrant and
>>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State
>>>>>>>>>> legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election
>>>>>>>>>> Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States,
>>>>>>>>>> the 14th
>>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not
>>>>>>>>>> relevant
>>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been
>>>>>>>>> election fraud.
>>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama
>>>>>>>>> regime and even
>>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most
>>>>>>>>> violently obvious
>>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the
>>>>>>>>> integrity of the
>>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith
>>>>>>>>> in the election,
>>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is
>>>>>>>>> why he is
>>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any
>>>>>>>>> suggestions that the
>>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could
>>>>>>>>> have seen it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS
>>>>>>>>> full of illegal
>>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off
>>>>>>>>> and got in line.
>>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they
>>>>>>>>> were suppose to
>>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll
>>>>>>>>> workers because
>>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also
>>>>>>>>> meant that they
>>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite
>>>>>>>>> them being in
>>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers
>>>>>>>>> had to call in
>>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the
>>>>>>>>> booth and almost
>>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing
>>>>>>>>> more on a six
>>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did
>>>>>>>>> they use the
>>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the
>>>>>>>>> ballot you had to
>>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top
>>>>>>>>> which was then NOT
>>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they
>>>>>>>>> could count only
>>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder
>>>>>>>>> was beaten by
>>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming
>>>>>>>>> majority in the polls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most
>>>>>>>> corrupt countries
>>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having
>>>>>>>> a tyrannical
>>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only
>>>>>>>> is voter fraud
>>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not
>>>>>>>> enforcing the voting
>>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought
>>>>>>>> before the courts and
>>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt
>>>>>> and unlawful
>>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person
>>>>> voter ID ...
>>>>
>>>> Â From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>>>> their citizens
>>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA)
>>>> member states
>>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however
>>>> issues a passport
>>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and
>>>> Switzerland..."
>>>>
>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card
>>>> is a good idea
>>>> for America.
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you?
>>>> Say, from the
>>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to
>>>> let the
>>>> government track our movements.
>>>
>>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except
>>> that I read
>>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses
>>> to illegal
>>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>>
>>
>> The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html
>
>
> I suppose that comes under "Cities' Rights," a subset of
> "States' Rights." No?
>
>

On 1/24/2022 7:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 6:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/24/2022 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2022 2:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
>>>>>>> ID ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Â From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>>>>>> their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
>>>>>> Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>>>>>> Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
>>>>>> valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> good idea for America.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
>>>>>> from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a
>>>>>> ruse
>>>>>> to let the government track our movements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>>>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>>>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID
>>>> system, if such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>>>
>>>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of
>>>> America, much more than it is in the more
>>>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID
>>>> is probably a driver's license, but those who can't
>>>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose
>>>> physical capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>>>> do have a right to vote.
>>>>
>>>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever
>>>> hoops are necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
>>>> That might include showing up at some remote office with
>>>> - what? A birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>>>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people
>>>> we're typically discussing, those documents may not be
>>>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of
>>>> Elections may be tricky to arrange. The project is something
>>>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>>>
>>>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones
>>>> most likely to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>>>> and those same people are more likely to face
>>>> difficulties acquiring mandated IDs. It's just not an
>>>> issue for, say,
>>>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their
>>>> SUV and flash their driver's license. The poor old guy
>>>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the
>>>> guy who has to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an
>>>> hour,
>>>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told
>>>> "Well, you should have started the process a month ago,
>>>> by applying for an ID" .
>>>>
>>>> And why is this now such an important issue, and
>>>> overwhelmingly in states controlled by Republicans?
>>>> Because five or
>>>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election?
>>>> There's no evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases
>>>> of individual
>>>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or
>>>> dishonestly voting Republican. ISTM that the reason is
>>>> strategists know
>>>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor
>>>> people are statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar
>>>> code system that identifies every voter plus their
>>>> residence and
>>>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep
>>>> government out of my Social Security" crowd?
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>
>>>> "... driver's license, but those who can't afford to
>>>> drive don't get those..."
>>> Every State offers equivalent ID card to non-drivers.
>>> AFAIK at zero or minimal cost. It's more about liquor and
>>> tobacco than voting but it's a policy of long standing.
>>
>> That may be true. It does not rebut the points I made above.
>>
>>>  > " So they can apply ahead of time,..."
>>> So what? We used to require a citizen to drag his ass to
>>> the County Clerk's office 30+ days before an election to
>>> register as a voter. I have no problem with that and in
>>> fact it was a better system, less prone to the many and
>>> various anomalies we now suffer.
>>
>> There have always been and will always be anomalies; there
>> seems to be no _real_ evidence that the last election was
>> materially affected by them. (As has been pointed out,
>> Republicans not named "Trump" did rather well.)
>>
>> But if your "30 day in advance" system were to be applied,
>> history hints that it would be applied by Republican
>> dominated states, and in a way that would disadvantage
>> darker folk. 100 years ago, it would have been applied to
>> disadvantage Italians, Poles and other suspicious ethnic
>> groups. Society has broadly decided similar tactics were
>> unethical. One party is now trying to turn back the clock.
>>
>>>  > "(oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!)"
>>> The currently publicized Statute is in direct response to
>>> flagrant electioneering in that State November 2020. And
>>> therefore, it's popular with voters. You don't like it?
>>> Run for Georgia Assembly or State Senate.
>>
>> Andrew, that's an attempt to shut down discussion. Sorry, I
>> did my time in the Deep South. I'll not return.
>>
>> Whatever the motivation, you'd prohibit giving a person a
>> bottle of water to someone sweltering in a long line waiting
>> to vote? That's inhumane and ludicrous. It deserves the
>> scorn it's receiving.
>>
>>> in re Japan:
>>>
>>> Although I look favorably to Japan and respect the general
>>> system of Singapore, I could not live comfortably in
>>> either place. For the same reason I haven't been even near
>>> a US airport since the middle of the Clinton
>>> administration; I would likely be arrested for one thing
>>> or another.
>>
>> Well, we differ. I've flown many times, domestically and
>> internationally. My worst hassle was, once, getting two
>> folding bikes packed barely in time to catch a plane.
>>
>
> I can't overlook that racist crap right here on RBT. You should know
> better. What exactly about a man's skin color keeps him from functioning
> in civil society as any other American?  My son in law manages, and he's
> naturalized. Christ give it a rest already. Racism reflects poorly on you.
>
> Under five minutes with actual Americans:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs

Please give me a summary. I rarely watch a video of random provenance
hoping for unbiased information.

> Besides, facts ought to matter:
> https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/record-high-turnout-in-2020-general-election.html

63% of blacks, vs 71% of non-Hispanic whites tells you voting was just
as easy for blacks?

>
> And a lot of your preconceived racist ideas run smack into facts:
>
> https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls

On 1/24/2022 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 7:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/24/2022 6:09 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2022 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/24/2022 2:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person
>>>>>>>> voter
>>>>>>>> ID ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Â From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are
>>>>>>> issued to
>>>>>>> their citizens by the governments of all European
>>>>>>> Economic
>>>>>>> Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>>>>>>> Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> good idea for America.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you?
>>>>>>> Say,
>>>>>>> from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a
>>>>>>> ruse
>>>>>>> to let the government track our movements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>>>>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>>>>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID
>>>>> system, if such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>>>>
>>>>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of
>>>>> America, much more than it is in the more
>>>>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID
>>>>> is probably a driver's license, but those who can't
>>>>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose
>>>>> physical capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>>>>> do have a right to vote.
>>>>>
>>>>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever
>>>>> hoops are necessary to get whatever ID is deemed
>>>>> necessary.
>>>>> That might include showing up at some remote office with
>>>>> - what? A birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>>>>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people
>>>>> we're typically discussing, those documents may not be
>>>>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of
>>>>> Elections may be tricky to arrange. The project is
>>>>> something
>>>>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>>>>
>>>>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones
>>>>> most likely to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>>>>> and those same people are more likely to face
>>>>> difficulties acquiring mandated IDs. It's just not an
>>>>> issue for, say,
>>>>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their
>>>>> SUV and flash their driver's license. The poor old guy
>>>>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the
>>>>> guy who has to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an
>>>>> hour,
>>>>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told
>>>>> "Well, you should have started the process a month ago,
>>>>> by applying for an ID" .
>>>>>
>>>>> And why is this now such an important issue, and
>>>>> overwhelmingly in states controlled by Republicans?
>>>>> Because five or
>>>>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election?
>>>>> There's no evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases
>>>>> of individual
>>>>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or
>>>>> dishonestly voting Republican. ISTM that the reason is
>>>>> strategists know
>>>>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor
>>>>> people are statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar
>>>>> code system that identifies every voter plus their
>>>>> residence and
>>>>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep
>>>>> government out of my Social Security" crowd?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "... driver's license, but those who can't afford to
>>>>> drive don't get those..."
>>>> Every State offers equivalent ID card to non-drivers.
>>>> AFAIK at zero or minimal cost. It's more about liquor and
>>>> tobacco than voting but it's a policy of long standing.
>>>
>>> That may be true. It does not rebut the points I made above.
>>>
>>>> Â > " So they can apply ahead of time,..."
>>>> So what? We used to require a citizen to drag his ass to
>>>> the County Clerk's office 30+ days before an election to
>>>> register as a voter. I have no problem with that and in
>>>> fact it was a better system, less prone to the many and
>>>> various anomalies we now suffer.
>>>
>>> There have always been and will always be anomalies; there
>>> seems to be no _real_ evidence that the last election was
>>> materially affected by them. (As has been pointed out,
>>> Republicans not named "Trump" did rather well.)
>>>
>>> But if your "30 day in advance" system were to be applied,
>>> history hints that it would be applied by Republican
>>> dominated states, and in a way that would disadvantage
>>> darker folk. 100 years ago, it would have been applied to
>>> disadvantage Italians, Poles and other suspicious ethnic
>>> groups. Society has broadly decided similar tactics were
>>> unethical. One party is now trying to turn back the clock.
>>>
>>>> Â > "(oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!)"
>>>> The currently publicized Statute is in direct response to
>>>> flagrant electioneering in that State November 2020. And
>>>> therefore, it's popular with voters. You don't like it?
>>>> Run for Georgia Assembly or State Senate.
>>>
>>> Andrew, that's an attempt to shut down discussion. Sorry, I
>>> did my time in the Deep South. I'll not return.
>>>
>>> Whatever the motivation, you'd prohibit giving a person a
>>> bottle of water to someone sweltering in a long line waiting
>>> to vote? That's inhumane and ludicrous. It deserves the
>>> scorn it's receiving.
>>>
>>>> in re Japan:
>>>>
>>>> Although I look favorably to Japan and respect the general
>>>> system of Singapore, I could not live comfortably in
>>>> either place. For the same reason I haven't been even near
>>>> a US airport since the middle of the Clinton
>>>> administration; I would likely be arrested for one thing
>>>> or another.
>>>
>>> Well, we differ. I've flown many times, domestically and
>>> internationally. My worst hassle was, once, getting two
>>> folding bikes packed barely in time to catch a plane.
>>>
>>
>> I can't overlook that racist crap right here on RBT. You
>> should know better. What exactly about a man's skin color
>> keeps him from functioning in civil society as any other
>> American? My son in law manages, and he's naturalized.
>> Christ give it a rest already. Racism reflects poorly on you.
>>
>> Under five minutes with actual Americans:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
>
> Please give me a summary. I rarely watch a video of random
> provenance hoping for unbiased information.
>
>> Besides, facts ought to matter:
>> https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/record-high-turnout-in-2020-general-election.html
>
>
> 63% of blacks, vs 71% of non-Hispanic whites tells you
> voting was just as easy for blacks?
>
>>
>> And a lot of your preconceived racist ideas run smack into
>> facts:
>>
>> https://www.vox.com/2020/11/4/21537966/trump-black-voters-exit-polls
>>
>
> Trump won 8% of the black vote, so this indicates efforts to
> make voting difficult for blacks is not racist?
>
> We seem to be "through the looking glass," a place where
> pointing out others' racist efforts is derided as being racist.
>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:53:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the papers to
>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the polls.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt countries
>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts and
>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>>
>>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>
>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>>> for America.
>>>
>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>>> government track our movements.
>>
>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>
>
>The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:09:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/24/2022 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/24/2022 2:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
>>>>>> ID ...
>>>>>
>>>>>  From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
>>>>> their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
>>>>> Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
>>>>> Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
>>>>> valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>>
>>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a
>>>>> good idea for America.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
>>>>> from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse
>>>>> to let the government track our movements.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
>>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
>>>>
>>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
>>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID system, if
>>> such a thing could be equitably applied.
>>>
>>> But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of America,
>>> much more than it is in the more
>>> prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID is probably a
>>> driver's license, but those who can't
>>> afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose physical
>>> capabilities preclude driving. But those people
>>> do have a right to vote.
>>>
>>> So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever hoops are
>>> necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
>>> That might include showing up at some remote office with - what? A
>>> birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
>>> depends how the laws are written. But for the people we're typically
>>> discussing, those documents may not be
>>> available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of Elections may
>>> be tricky to arrange. The project is something
>>> they need to start weeks before the election.
>>>
>>> So low income people and handicapped people are the ones most likely
>>> to not automatically have mandated IDs,
>>> and those same people are more likely to face difficulties acquiring
>>> mandated IDs. It's just not an issue for, say,
>>> upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their SUV and flash
>>> their driver's license. The poor old guy
>>> walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the guy who has
>>> to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an hour,
>>> (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told "Well, you
>>> should have started the process a month ago,
>>> by applying for an ID" .
>>>
>>> And why is this now such an important issue, and overwhelmingly in
>>> states controlled by Republicans? Because five or
>>> six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election? There's no
>>> evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases of individual
>>> election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or dishonestly voting
>>> Republican. ISTM that the reason is strategists know
>>> that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor people are
>>> statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
>>>
>>> BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar code system
>>> that identifies every voter plus their residence and
>>> other data. How would that go over with the "Keep government out of my
>>> Social Security" crowd?
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>>> "... driver's license, but those who can't afford to drive don't get
>>> those..."
>> Every State offers equivalent ID card to non-drivers. AFAIK at zero or
>> minimal cost. It's more about liquor and tobacco than voting but it's a
>> policy of long standing.
>
>That may be true. It does not rebut the points I made above.
>
>> > " So they can apply ahead of time,..."
>> So what? We used to require a citizen to drag his ass to the County
>> Clerk's office 30+ days before an election to register as a voter. I
>> have no problem with that and in fact it was a better system, less prone
>> to the many and various anomalies we now suffer.
>
>There have always been and will always be anomalies; there seems to be
>no _real_ evidence that the last election was materially affected by
>them. (As has been pointed out, Republicans not named "Trump" did rather
>well.)
>
>But if your "30 day in advance" system were to be applied, history hints
>that it would be applied by Republican dominated states, and in a way
>that would disadvantage darker folk. 100 years ago, it would have been
>applied to disadvantage Italians, Poles and other suspicious ethnic
>groups. Society has broadly decided similar tactics were unethical. One
>party is now trying to turn back the clock.
>
>> > "(oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!)"
>> The currently publicized Statute is in direct response to flagrant
>> electioneering in that State November 2020. And therefore, it's popular
>> with voters. You don't like it? Run for Georgia Assembly or State Senate.
>
>Andrew, that's an attempt to shut down discussion. Sorry, I did my time
>in the Deep South. I'll not return.
>
>Whatever the motivation, you'd prohibit giving a person a bottle of
>water to someone sweltering in a long line waiting to vote? That's
>inhumane and ludicrous. It deserves the scorn it's receiving.
>
>> in re Japan:
>>
>> Although I look favorably to Japan and respect the general system of
>> Singapore, I could not live comfortably in either place. For the same
>> reason I haven't been even near a US airport since the middle of the
>> Clinton administration; I would likely be arrested for one thing or
>> another.
>
>Well, we differ. I've flown many times, domestically and
>internationally. My worst hassle was, once, getting two folding bikes
>packed barely in time to catch a plane.

But Frank, all those rules that you seem to imply disadvantage
minority groups didn't prevent minority groups, most notably the Irish
in the N.E., from literally overwhelming the "native Anglo-Saxon"
residents. Read the history of Mayor Curley who served as Mayor of
Boston for four terms, Governor of Massachusetts for 1 term and 2
terms in the U.S. Congress. And... won two (I believe) elections while
actually incarcerated, serving a term in prison. In fact The Irish
even got one of their mob elected president (:-)

And Afro-Americans (I hope that is the current politically correct
term) are a majority in something like 19 cities in the U.S. and
(surprise, surprise) are also the mayor in some 22 cities. And one was
even elected as President.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/24/2022 8:30 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:53:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the papers to
>>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the polls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt countries
>>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts and
>>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>>>
>>>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>
>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>>>> for America.
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>>>> government track our movements.
>>>
>>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
>>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
>>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>>
>>
>> The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html
>
> If the U.S. is going to emulate the governmental system used by a very
> ancient country, that no longer exists, than it should go ahead and do
> it. The Athenians system ignored slaves, freed slaves, children, women
> and metics (foreign residents in Athens) and allowed only adult males
> who had completed their military training and maintained their war
> equipment and had paid their taxes to participate in the government.
>
> Actual day to day management was in the hands of a 500 member group
> called the boule which was selected by a lottery as voting was deemed
> to be a less democratic system of selection.
>
> And while the actual population and make up of the Athenian population
> is not accurately known it is estimated that, perhaps, 40% of the male
> population might have been qualified to vote.
>
> Oh Yes! And the Athenians had mandatory military service for all male
> citizens (:-)

On 1/24/2022 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:53:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the papers to
>>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the polls.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt countries
>>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts and
>>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>>>
>>>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>
>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>>>> for America.
>>>>
>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>>>> government track our movements.
>>>
>>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
>>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
>>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>>
>>
>> The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html
>
> If the U.S. is going to emulate the governmental system used by a very
> ancient country, that no longer exists, than it should go ahead and do
> it. The Athenians system ignored slaves, freed slaves, children, women
> and metics (foreign residents in Athens) and allowed only adult males
> who had completed their military training and maintained their war
> equipment and had paid their taxes to participate in the government.
>
> Actual day to day management was in the hands of a 500 member group
> called the boule which was selected by a lottery as voting was deemed
> to be a less democratic system of selection.
>
> And while the actual population and make up of the Athenian population
> is not accurately known it is estimated that, perhaps, 40% of the male
> population might have been qualified to vote.
>
> Oh Yes! And the Athenians had mandatory military service for all male
> citizens (:-)
>

On 1/24/2022 9:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> And Afro-Americans (I hope that is the current politically correct
> term) are a majority in something like 19 cities in the U.S. and
> (surprise, surprise) are also the mayor in some 22 cities. And one was
> even elected as President.

The point is, that inspired lots of folks to say and work toward "Never
again!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 21:09:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/24/2022 8:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:53:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the papers to
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the polls.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt countries
>>>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts and
>>>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>>>>
>>>>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>>>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>>>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>>>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>>
>>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>>>>> for America.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>>>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>>>>> government track our movements.
>>>>
>>>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
>>>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
>>>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html
>>
>> If the U.S. is going to emulate the governmental system used by a very
>> ancient country, that no longer exists, than it should go ahead and do
>> it. The Athenians system ignored slaves, freed slaves, children, women
>> and metics (foreign residents in Athens) and allowed only adult males
>> who had completed their military training and maintained their war
>> equipment and had paid their taxes to participate in the government.
>>
>> Actual day to day management was in the hands of a 500 member group
>> called the boule which was selected by a lottery as voting was deemed
>> to be a less democratic system of selection.
>>
>> And while the actual population and make up of the Athenian population
>> is not accurately known it is estimated that, perhaps, 40% of the male
>> population might have been qualified to vote.
>>
>> Oh Yes! And the Athenians had mandatory military service for all male
>> citizens (:-)
>
>Well, the U.S. started out vaguely similar. Property owning males got to
>vote. I guess one can make an argument for or against such
>qualifications - and I suppose all those arguments have been made, to
>arrive at the current customs and laws.
>
>As usual, I'm somewhat curious about the rules other countries use. On
>many matters, examining other practices gives insight into what works
>better or worse.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 20:18:46 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/24/2022 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:53:48 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/24/2022 4:44 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 11:08:39 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/23/2022 4:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 10:21:07 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/22/2022 4:51 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:36:05 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 4:50:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 5:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:04:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2022 9:49 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:40:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:02:01 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did Jeff ever claim to be an engineer? I must have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missed that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I made that claim at some point in the past.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Photo of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diploma:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notice that it's signed by Ronald Reagan, when he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> governor of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah well, Jeff - many, Tommy - zero. So Jeff wins by a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> landslide (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is, unless Tommy can PROVE voter fraud (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about video of a felony in progress and telephone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> location data which matches?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last September first reports:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-video-shows-traffickers-dumping-thousands-of-ballots-in-georgia-drop-boxes-in-middle-of-the-night/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow up this month:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.worldtribune.com/report-georgia-investigating-alleged-illegal-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there's Pennsylvania with statutory and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constitutional violations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also Wisconsin, where the nearby Dane County Clerk ran
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> television ads to brag about violating the statute on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ballot harvesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judge Salas, in NJ, who was scheduled to hear a case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> involving Jeffrey Epstein, suffered the loss of her son,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shot dead in her doorway. The shooter also conveniently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'committed suicide'. Once that message was heard, clearly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no judge allowed any election fraud evidence or testimony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into any court record. Zip, nada, nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not one case was heard, deliberated, decided. Every ruling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was procedural.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Astonishing. Millions and millions of allegations across so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many states! So many audits, so many recounts, so many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trumpian attempts to prove and to prosecute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet so many Republican judges and officials and their hirees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or their "cyber ninjas") all the way up to his vice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> president saying, in effect, "Bullshit."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How could they _all_ have been fooled into thinking Trump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lost the election?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or is it possible, just possible, that he actually did?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe, maybe not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's reasonable doubt and not one case was heard, no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> testimony, no evidence. If it were clear, one might expect a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> public record, no?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I gather that was the difficulty... "no evidence". While it is,
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps, all right to hold up a bunch of paper and shout "here is
>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence" but when you get to court you have to show the papers to
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone and let them read them (:-) and apparently that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>> sticking point... no evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that is not what happened. Every venue was denied on
>>>>>>>>>>> procedural grounds, real or imagined, some flagrant and
>>>>>>>>>>> pathetic:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/supreme-court-rejects-pennsylvania-2020-election-c/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Note that under our Constitution, State legislatures (not
>>>>>>>>>>> Governors, nor courts, Clerks or Election Commissions) have
>>>>>>>>>>> absolute and plenary power over the 'times, places and
>>>>>>>>>>> manner' for Federal elections[1].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [1]In applying the Bill of Rights to the States, the 14th
>>>>>>>>>>> Amendment proscribes statutory discrimination, not relevant
>>>>>>>>>>> to the instant case.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew, this isn't the first time there's been election fraud.
>>>>>>>>>> Judges and especially judges appointed by the Obama regime and even
>>>>>>>>>> Republican judges unless presented with the most violently obvious
>>>>>>>>>> fraud, are far more concerned with maintaining the integrity of the
>>>>>>>>>> election process. Once the electorate loses faith in the election,
>>>>>>>>>> civil war ensues. This is what Frank wants. This is why he is
>>>>>>>>>> willing to say that judges turned down any suggestions that the
>>>>>>>>>> elections were fraudulent when a blind man could have seen it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When I voted for the second Obama Presidency, a BUS full of illegal
>>>>>>>>>> aliens pulled up to the poll and they all got off and got in line.
>>>>>>>>>> They all had pieces of paper with the names they were suppose to
>>>>>>>>>> vote under. They had to hold these out to the poll workers because
>>>>>>>>>> most of these illegals were illiterate. This also meant that they
>>>>>>>>>> couldn't read the directions on how to vote despite them being in
>>>>>>>>>> English, Spanish and Chinese. So the poll workers had to call in
>>>>>>>>>> translators who ended up having to go into the booth and almost
>>>>>>>>>> hold their hands to vote for Obama only and nothing more on a six
>>>>>>>>>> page ballot.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This last vote was even more crooked. No longer did they use the
>>>>>>>>>> vote counting machines. After you filled out the ballot you had to
>>>>>>>>>> drop them into a suitcase with a slot in the top which was then NOT
>>>>>>>>>> counted on the site but taken somewhere where they could count only
>>>>>>>>>> what they wanted to count. This is how Larry Elder was beaten by
>>>>>>>>>> Gavin Loathsome when Elder had an overwhelming majority in the polls.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tommy, you must live in one of the, if not the most corrupt countries
>>>>>>>>> in the world. You falsely accuse Thailand of having a tyrannical
>>>>>>>>> government while living in a country where not only is voter fraud
>>>>>>>>> wide spread but the courts are corrupt in not enforcing the voting
>>>>>>>>> laws. 40, or more cases of voting fraud brought before the courts and
>>>>>>>>> the court refused to hear them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do you stand it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2022/01/more_coincidences_in_georgia_some_counties_destroyed_videos_that_could_showcase_ballotharvesting.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, added proof that Tommy resides in a very corrupt and unlawful
>>>>>>> country.... isn't it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter ID ...
>>>>>
>>>>> From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to their citizens
>>>>> by the governments of all European Economic Area (EEA) member states
>>>>> except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport
>>>>> card which is a valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
>>>>>
>>>>> First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a good idea
>>>>> for America.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say, from the
>>>>> people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse to let the
>>>>> government track our movements.
>>>>
>>>> Right, it impedes your vaunted "freedoms"... well except that I read
>>>> some years ago about California issuing driver's licenses to illegal
>>>> immigrants for use as an I.D. card.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The huge numbers of crash and run in LA wasn't enough mayhem:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/23/nyregion/noncitizen-voting-rights-nyc.html
>>
>> If the U.S. is going to emulate the governmental system used by a very
>> ancient country, that no longer exists, than it should go ahead and do
>> it. The Athenians system ignored slaves, freed slaves, children, women
>> and metics (foreign residents in Athens) and allowed only adult males
>> who had completed their military training and maintained their war
>> equipment and had paid their taxes to participate in the government.
>>
>> Actual day to day management was in the hands of a 500 member group
>> called the boule which was selected by a lottery as voting was deemed
>> to be a less democratic system of selection.
>>
>> And while the actual population and make up of the Athenian population
>> is not accurately known it is estimated that, perhaps, 40% of the male
>> population might have been qualified to vote.
>>
>> Oh Yes! And the Athenians had mandatory military service for all male
>> citizens (:-)
>>
>
>Maybe I missed something.
>
>What's the connection to our Constitution as we know it and
>illegal aliens? Illegal entry is a crime under
>long-standing Statues supporting Article 1 Section 8.

Am 25.01.2022 um 03:09 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>
> As usual, I'm somewhat curious about the rules other countries use. On
> many matters, examining other practices gives insight into what works
> better or worse.

In the European Union, you need to have the correct nationality to vote
in a national election but non-national residents are allowed to vote in
European Elections and in local elections.

In German Cities, there is an additional vote of non-EU residents for a
"foreigners council" (a consulting body to the City Council).

Rolf

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 3:57:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 12:21:27 PM UTC-8, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 10:18:39 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 1/24/2022 10:08 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 1/23/2022 7:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> We're among few countries with a lack of in-person voter
> > > >> ID ...
> > > >
> > > > From WikiPedia: "National identity cards are issued to
> > > > their citizens by the governments of all European Economic
> > > > Area (EEA) member states except Denmark, Iceland and
> > > > Ireland. Ireland however issues a passport card which is a
> > > > valid document in the EEA and Switzerland..."
> > > >
> > > > First, let's convince everyone that a citizen's ID card is a
> > > > good idea for America.
> > > >
> > > > Somehow, I think there will be resistance, don't you? Say,
> > > > from the people who claimed the COVID vaccine is just a ruse
> > > > to let the government track our movements.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
> > > 10th Amendment kinda guy.
> > >
> > > I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
> > > identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
> > >
> > > https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
> > In principle, I don't have much problem with a photo ID system, if such a thing could be equitably applied.
> >
> > But gross inequality seems to be a fundamental feature of America, much more than it is in the more
> > prosperous countries of Europe. So the default voter ID is probably a driver's license, but those who can't
> > afford to drive don't get those. Ditto those whose physical capabilities preclude driving. But those people
> > do have a right to vote.
> >
> > So they can apply ahead of time, jumping through whatever hoops are necessary to get whatever ID is deemed necessary.
> > That might include showing up at some remote office with - what? A birth certificate? A passport? I suppose it
> > depends how the laws are written. But for the people we're typically discussing, those documents may not be
> > available. In fact, transportation to (say) the Board of Elections may be tricky to arrange. The project is something
> > they need to start weeks before the election.
> >
> > So low income people and handicapped people are the ones most likely to not automatically have mandated IDs,
> > and those same people are more likely to face difficulties acquiring mandated IDs. It's just not an issue for, say,
> > upper class suburban Republicans. They show up in their SUV and flash their driver's license. The poor old guy
> > walking with a cane is the guy most likely affected - the guy who has to take the bus to vote, stand in line for an hour,
> > (oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!) then be told "Well, you should have started the process a month ago,
> > by applying for an ID" .
> >
> > And why is this now such an important issue, and overwhelmingly in states controlled by Republicans? Because five or
> > six poor folks are going to critically ruin an election? There's no evidence of that; in fact, most of the cases of individual
> > election fraud seem to be people mistakenly or dishonestly voting Republican. ISTM that the reason is strategists know
> > that poor people lean toward voting Democratic, and poor people are statistically less likely to have easy IDs.
> >
> > BTW, I read that Japan has some kind of electronic bar code system that identifies every voter plus their residence and
> > other data. How would that go over with the "Keep government out of my Social Security" crowd?
>
> You can't make it through a single day without some blatantly racist comments can you?

Point out the racist comment in Franks message, you blathering fool. Once you do that, point to _any_ racist comment Frank has made here.

> Do you also believe that the "Jews" are still trying to take over the world? Your unshakeable belief that blacks and Hispanics and Asians aren't
> smart enough to cash their own paychecks without you holding their hand and showing them how shows your charter membership to the
> Democrat Party. Rather than coming out and using politically incorrect term you label them as "poor"

Ah, I see....sparky seems to think "poor" is a coded racial epithet. Of course we know:
"believe that the "Jews" are still trying to take over the world",
"unshakeable belief that blacks and Hispanics and Asians aren't smart enough to cash their own paychecks without you holding their hand"
and "Rather than coming out and using politically incorrect term you label them as "poor" "
are actually projections on his part.

I could be mistaken (and will admit if proven as with my challenge to you regarding Brandt posting your address), but I don't believe Frank would ever have made such comments, or even implied them. Feel free to prove me wrong, skippy.

>
> By the way poor people overwhelmingly elected Trump https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/

And, as usual, tommy's link doesn't support the claims he's making. That article doesn't address poor people at all.

>
> Of course to people like flunky, he much prefers lies to the truth.

Nope, you're the one sticking with "PWM is used for testing cables" and " 'light lines' is a common term for fiber optics, despite no proof supporting your claims and massive evidence to the contrary.

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 4:11:44 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 2:42 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 3:31:34 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 11:34:30 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 2:16:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I made no statement about a Federalized ID system. I'm a
> >>>>> 10th Amendment kinda guy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I notice that you tried to conflate lack of voter
> >>>>> identification into a totalitarian national ID argument.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2021/06/01/the_us_is_a_voter_photo_id_outlier_theyre_the_rule_in_europe_and_elsewhere_778714.html
> >>>> I don't believe that there should be Federal voter ID, but I do believe that there should be a Federal law that states MUST issue voter ID's of some sort. Even if it is your driver's license or passport.
> >>> Oh no! Unfunded mandates!!
> >>
> >> So to you, showing the same ID it takes to show a cop on the street if he questions you is an "unfunded mandate".
> >
> > no, you little fascist creep, a cop demanding my ID is unconstitutional without probably cause. You'd be the first one to whimper about it if it happened to you, but some minority that gets the shit kicked out of him for refusing to allow a "stop and frisk" is perfectly acceptable to you. In case you hadn't heard, walking or driving while black is _not_ probably cause.This of course, brings us to your abhorrent reading comprehension (clearly why you flunked high school) the unfunded mandate is "I do believe that there should be a Federal law that states MUST issue voter ID's of some sort." You'd love a law like that, until you figured out it has to be pad for - but hey, if someone below the poverty line can't afford to buy the ID, they don't deserve to vote, right sparky?
> >
> >> And yet another pile of horseshit from the mouth full of it. You should be really happy after November. I can hardly wait.
> >
> > Why, do you plan on dying in november? That would make me happy.
> >
> >
> 'Probable cause' covers a wide range of real and imagined
> situations. Judges will look more kindly toward the officer
> than toward you.

I understand that, it's happened to me many times, for such things as the cop saying "I smelled marijuana from his car when he drove by". The law - even in liberal massachusetts - gives the police wide latitude in that area, especially in the small conservative centrally located town I grew up in.

> Also, many localities have vagrancy
> ordinances specifically citing lack of ID as a violation. If
> fake ID were not so cheap and common this would be a serious
> issue.
>
> Note I'm not advocating one thing or another but 'ID for
> random police check' is a weak argument IMHO.

And yet it still happens

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 5:55:50 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 09:25:51 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 6:46:14 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:15:22 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Can someone explain why there were no protests during the rein of a Democrats but when Nixon was elected and actually began the process of getting out of there, protests and riots shook campuses and streets?
> >>
> >> You are so unbelievably stupid.
> >> https://www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war/vietnam-war-protests
> >>
> >> "On October 21, 1967, one of the most prominent anti-war demonstrations took place, as some 100,000 protesters gathered at the Lincoln Memorial; around 30,000 of them continued in a march on the Pentagon later that night.. "
> >>
> >> Spring Mobe was created in 1966 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Mobilization_Committee_to_End_the_War_in_Vietnam), and was largely responsible for the riots at the 1968 Democratic National convention in Chicago - before Nixon was elected. There were literally hundreds of protests before nixon was elected you nattering old fool.
> >>
> >> LBJ was president then, you fucking idiot. But then, you're the deluded old twit that thinks the economy was in great shape when Obama took office (never never dared to explain how that was possible when Bush signed TARP legislation before the election even occurred.)
> >Tell us flunky, what military service were you in? Your vast Google knowledge like your act alike fat Johnny have an entire actual knowledge of NOTHING. So read your Google and pretend to everyone that you know something. I was in the Air Force then and I know that the "bombing" of North Vietnam was completely confined to antimissile sites on the North Vietnam border. But I'm sure that you think you're the world's expert on how to Google.
>
>
> "I know that the "bombing" of North Vietnam was completely confined to
> antimissile sites on the North Vietnam border."???
>
> Ah yes, the Great Military tool box carrier. From your own posts the
> Air Force didn't even let you get near an airplane without someone to
> watch over you.
>
> As for bombing ONLY N. Vietnam anti aircraft sites? Well
>
> Operation "Pierce Arrow" which was conducted on 5 August 1964 which
> attacked "the torpedo boat bases of Hon Gai, Loc Chao, Quang Khe, and
> Phuc Loi, and the oil storage depot at Vinh.
>
> And described as, "This was the start of U.S. air operations over
> North Vietnam and Southeast Asia, attempting to destroy the
> infrastructure, war material, and military units needed by North
> Vietnam to prosecute the guerrilla war in the South. The air
> operations following Pierce Arrow would swell so that by war's end,
> the United States bombing campaign was the longest and heaviest in
> history. The 7,662,000 tons of bombs dropped in Southeast Asia during
> the Vietnam War nearly quadrupled the 2,150,000 tons the U.S. had
> dropped during World War II.
>

I'm pretty sure he was making the claim that the US bombing of Cambodia was actually targeting missile sites in north vietnam, and that the US never actually bombed Cambodia.

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 6:22:11 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:45:52 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 3:39:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Since you've never worked in much of a business you wouldn't understand anything and you show it with each posting. The poison gas detector for the military was subcontracted to ETEC and the communications converter card for NASA was subcontracted to Datum or Tality.
> >
> >Funny how someone responsible for programming a poison gas detector somehow got exposed to the gas that permanently disabled him. I'm guessing his involvement was more along the lines of a crash test dummy than someone on the design team (no, tommy, they don't have the design engineers actually test the products)
> Yes I read about Tommy's "accomplishments" but way back in 1952 when I
> joined the Air Force and went through gas mask training as part of my
> Basic Training there were "poison gas detectors" and that was when
> Tommy was 8 years old.
>
> Do you suppose Tommy was deigning gas detectors when he was eight
> years old?

Who, tommy the super genius? Of course he did!!!!

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 7:09:31 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/24/2022 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/24/2022 2:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> > > "(oh, and NOT be handed a bottle of water!)"
> > The currently publicized Statute is in direct response to flagrant
> > electioneering in that State November 2020. And therefore, it's popular
> > with voters. You don't like it? Run for Georgia Assembly or State Senate.
> Andrew, that's an attempt to shut down discussion. Sorry, I did my time
> in the Deep South. I'll not return.
>
> Whatever the motivation, you'd prohibit giving a person a bottle of
> water to someone sweltering in a long line waiting to vote? That's
> inhumane and ludicrous. It deserves the scorn it's receiving.

+1, and I'll add that Georgia is shutting down polling places based on voting tendencies, rather than population, such that large counties with majority democratic voting bases are reduced to one polling site, where as smaller more conservative counties have several. The results are predictable and intentional - make it difficult for voters who tend to vote democratic, forcing them to travel long distances and wait in long lines, then prohibit non-partisan service such as handing out water on a hot day. Jim crow 2.0.

On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 7:25:57 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Technical support, writing tech manuals, reference manuals, and sales
> brochures is not design engineering.

Not as a primary function. I'm not defending sparky here bu I've done a _ton_ of technical writing in my career, including user manuals (though later edited by either tech pubs or marcom people).

> I think I see the problem. You are claiming to have worked for NASA.
> You didn't. Your paycheck was issued by Datum or Tality, not NASA.
> You worked for and were employed by Datum or Tality, not NASA. That's
> probably why you show Datum and Tality on your resume, not NASA. It
> would be like me claiming to have worked for the US Coast Guard
> because we "worked with them" on three of my marine radio designs.

Same here, I was part of a design enhancement project replacing the IF section for an interferometry down-converter that NASA used in their radio astronomy telescopes. The original schematics had approval markings from JPL for some reason. I have that on my resume, but it's under the company I worked for at the time. Not JPL or NASA.