Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:25:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 6:06:34 AM UTC-5, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> >> >> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>> >> >> > George Dance wrote:
>
>> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> ~~
>> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>> >>
>> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>>
>> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.

>

> AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."

> George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.

Okay, fair enough.

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >> >> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> >> >> >> > George Dance wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> >>
> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>
> >
> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>
> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> Okay, fair enough.

Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....

Zod wrote:

> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> >> >> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>> >> >> >> > George Dance wrote:
>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>> >>
>> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>>
>> >
>> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>>
>> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>> Okay, fair enough.

> Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....

Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.

HTH and HAND.

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 6:00:15 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Zod wrote:
>
> > On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > George Dance wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> >> >>
> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
> >>
> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> >> Okay, fair enough.
>
> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.

George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."

Those are George's statements. If the topic is to be labeled "taboo," George shouldn't have posted it to begin with.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 6:00:15 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Zod wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> > George Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>> >>
>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>> >> Okay, fair enough.
>>
>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.

> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."

Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>>> George Dance wrote:
>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>>> >>
>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
>>>
>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.

>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."

General-Zod wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>>>> George Dance wrote:
>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
>>>>
>>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
>>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> General-Zod wrote:
>
> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> >>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> >>>> >> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> >>>>
> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
>
> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
>
> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
>
> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> Something we can all agree with.

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> General-Zod wrote:
>>
>> > Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>> >>>> George Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>> >>>> >> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
>> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
>>
>> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
>>
>> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
>>
>> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
>> Something we can all agree with.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> General-Zod wrote:
> >>
> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> >> >>>> >> >>
> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> >> >>>> >>
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> >> >>>> >>
> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> >>
> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> >>
> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> >>
> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> >> Something we can all agree with.
>
> > Speak for yourself
> I did,

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> General-Zod wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>> >> >>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> >
>> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
>> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
>> >>
>> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
>> >>
>> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
>> >>
>> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
>> >> Something we can all agree with.
>>
>> > Speak for yourself
>> I did.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:34:12 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > >> >>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > >> >>>> >>
> > >> >>>> >> >
> > >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
> > >> >>>> >>
> > >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > >>
> > >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > >>
> > >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > >>
> > >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > >> Something we can all agree with.
> >
> > > Speak for yourself
> > I did,
> You said that "we all" can agree with it

Will Dockery wrote:
> Zod wrote:

>> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:20:23 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> >> >> >> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
>>> >> >> >> > George Dance wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
>>> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
>>> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>> >> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
>>> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
>>> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>> >> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
>>> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
>>> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
>>> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
>>> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
>>> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
>>> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
>>> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
>>> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
>>> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
>>> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
>>> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
>>> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
>>> >> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
>>> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
>>> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
>>> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
>>> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
>>> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
>>> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
>>> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
>>> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
>>> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
>>> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
>>> >>
>>> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
>>> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
>>>
>>> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
>>> Okay, fair enough.

>> Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....

> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.

> HTH and HAND.

Good plan... PING G.D.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> >> >> >>>> >> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> >> >> >>>> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> >> >> >>>> >>
> >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments..
> >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> >> >>
> >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> >> >>
> >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> >> >>
> >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> >>
> >> > Speak for yourself
> >> I did.
> >
>
> > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
>
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU
Tellingly, it's only a head shot.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 5:24:26 PM UTC-5, Zod wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:34:12 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter.. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > >> >>>> >> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > >> >>>> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> >
> > > >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments."
> > > >> >>>> >>
> > > >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > >> >>>>
> > > >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > >>
> > > >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > >>
> > > >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > >>
> > > >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > >> Something we can all agree with.
> > >
> > > > Speak for yourself
> > > I did,
> > You said that "we all" can agree with it
> Which is true, we can, or could all agree with the statement... but some, such as you, will refuse to, Voodoo Boy..

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up.. And I think realizing tht
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > >> >> >>>> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > >> >> >>>> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem.....!
> > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > >>
> > >> > Speak for yourself
> > >> I did.
> > >
> >
> > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> >
> > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU> Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
>
> That said, you've got huge bags under your eyes, your face is puffy and bloated,

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up.. And I think realizing tht
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > >> >> >>>> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > >> >> >>>> >>
> > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem.....!
> > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > >>
> > >> > Speak for yourself
> > >> I did.
> > >
> >
> > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> >
> > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU> Tellingly, it's only a head shot.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > >> >> >>>>
> > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem.....!
> > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > >>
> > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > >> I did.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > >
> > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
>
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU
I'm sorry, Donkey. I didn't realize you were pregnant.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry.....!
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry..Comments.."
> > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > >> I did.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> >
> > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU> I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:38:02 AM UTC-5, Family Guy wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things..)
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of.. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer..
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > > > >> I did.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > > > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.
> >
> > Whether you can see it or not, I've lost at least 70 pounds from exercise and a better eating schedule, since you brought it up, little monkey.
> >
> > 🙂
> Or it could just be cancer. Let's hope that it's cancer.
I wouldn't wish cancer on anybody.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 6:24:49 AM UTC-5, rjbur...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:38:02 AM UTC-5, Family Guy wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > > > > >> I did.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > > > > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.
> > >
> > > Whether you can see it or not, I've lost at least 70 pounds from exercise and a better eating schedule, since you brought it up, little monkey.
> > >
> > > 🙂
> > Or it could just be cancer. Let's hope that it's cancer.
> I wouldn't wish cancer on anybody.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 7:01:05 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 6:24:49 AM UTC-5, rjbur...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:38:02 AM UTC-5, Family Guy wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago..
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six..
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > > > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > > > > > >> I did.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > > > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > > > > > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.
> > > >
> > > > Whether you can see it or not, I've lost at least 70 pounds from exercise and a better eating schedule, since you brought it up, little monkey..
> > > >
> > > > 🙂
> > > Or it could just be cancer. Let's hope that it's cancer.
> > I wouldn't wish cancer on anybody.
> A pox on both your houses!
WAD I DO WRONG!?!

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 6:24:49 AM UTC-5, rjbur...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:38:02 AM UTC-5, Family Guy wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > > > > >> I did.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > > > > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.
> > >
> > > Whether you can see it or not, I've lost at least 70 pounds from exercise and a better eating schedule, since you brought it up, little monkey.
> > >
> > > 🙂
> > Or it could just be cancer. Let's hope that it's cancer.
> I wouldn't wish cancer on anybody.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 9:05:11 AM UTC-5, rjbur...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 7:01:05 AM UTC-5, Spam-I-Am wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 6:24:49 AM UTC-5, rjbur...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:38:02 AM UTC-5, Family Guy wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now..
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew..
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > > > > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > > > > > > >> I did.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > > > > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > > > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > > > > > > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > > I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.
> > > > >
> > > > > Whether you can see it or not, I've lost at least 70 pounds from exercise and a better eating schedule, since you brought it up, little monkey.
> > > > >
> > > > > 🙂
> > > > Or it could just be cancer. Let's hope that it's cancer.
> > > I wouldn't wish cancer on anybody.
> > A pox on both your houses!
> WAD I DO WRONG!?!

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:38:02 AM UTC-5, Family Guy wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:55:39 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:43:20 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:32:22 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:10:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:15:13 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 12:45:14 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >>> On 2022-12-04 3:41 p.m., Zod wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> George Dance wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> My Father's House
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> This is my father's house, although
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> They said it would be quite all right
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To take a drive to see it now.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I helped, though I was only six.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To be so many other places.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I would work the summers through,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> While watching my friends run and play
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> (For boys can be such filthy things..)
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> To read or play alone, and then
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> ~~
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> George J. Dance
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> Read twice, outstanding work of poetry....!
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, Zod. It's a poem I'm proud of.. I wrote the first draft quickly,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I spent several years tweaking it before it went into a book.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> The big revision here is the rewrite to L2. In the original discussion,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> one of the people trying to cut it to shreds was a poet, and amongst her
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> complaints she had a criticism I thought valid: it's not clear that the
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> speaker is the child of the poem now grown up. And I think realizing tht
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> is essential to appreciating the thing. Having the father been dead for
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> over a decade makes that much clearer..
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> As well, it makes certain things more ambiguous, and I think that's a
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> plus as well. By taking out the old L2, it's no longer clear whether the
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> house this guy is walking around in is abandoned, or still lived in..
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> It's also unclear who "they" are; my hidden idea was that the speaker
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> was under psychiatric care, ant "they" were the ones looking after him,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> but I wanted to keep that hidden.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> > Cool... cool...
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> It's interesting; writing the first draft (which is most of the finished
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> poem) took 15 or 20 minutes; but I've made little tweaks that improved
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> it. One I thought of tonight, when I reread it, was how one person,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> Karla I think, complained about two uses of "oh" in the last stanza,
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> which she said were just padding to fit the meter. Dennis Hammes advised
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> me to add "oh" in some earlier stanzas, which would make it "voice" - so
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> I did. I do have to agree that Dennis was right. The interjections don't
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> stick out at all; after hearing the speaker talk like that throughout
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> the poem, the reader can just accept them as how he talks.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> > Regardless of how your rationalize them, they come across as filler.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Troll much, Pendragon?
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> > Constructive criticism is not trolling
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >> You've been trolling George Dance about this poem from the start, Pendragon.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > AAPC is an acronym that stands for "Alt.Arts.Poetry.Comments.."
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> > George posted a poem -- I have provided him with comments.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> >> Okay, fair enough.
> > > > > > >> >> >>>>
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> > Yep but the comments should not be used to attack and troll the poet... and that is what Pen seemed to be leaning to in his (mis)reading of GD's poem....
> > > > > > >> >> >>>> Good point, I say we let George Dance decide, since the poem is his, and the attack was on his personal life, which shouldn't be included here on Usenet.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >>> George Dance has already said that the poem was "largely based" on his personal experiences, and that "corporal punishment" was dished out regularly to the boys in his house. He has also said that his father built a House-in-the-Box. That doesn't leave much of the poem to be "imaginative fiction."
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >> Again, I'll let George Dance give the final word on his poem, which he's said isn't specifically about him.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> > As it should be... final word goes to the author of the poem....!
> > > > > > >> >> Something we can all agree with.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > Speak for yourself
> > > > > > >> I did.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may weigh enough to be four adults
> > > > > > That's out of date, I'm back down to my old weight, my weight before I stopped smoking and drinking:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/CjcPOT6s-dP/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > > > Tellingly, it's only a head shot.
> > > > Okay, here's another one, uncropped:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl5LoafNvZZ/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
> > > I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were pregnant.
> >
> > Whether you can see it or not, I've lost at least 70 pounds from exercise and a better eating schedule, since you brought it up, little monkey.
> >
>
> Or it could just be cancer. Let's hope that it's cancer.