Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ssrsn8$rkn$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:16 on Wed, 26 Jan
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:38:48 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>> Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
>>>>> the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
>>>>> with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
>>>>
>>>> The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL
>>>> sprawls all over the Southern network, with many
>>>
>>> You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
>>> parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
>>> different to thameslink?
>>
>> Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
>> <http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%
>> 20Map%20-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
>
> It's grown a lot recently. For a long time it was just Bedford to
> Brighton, plus the Sutton Loop.

Yup. That's the main reason the franchises were merged into GTR.

In message <ssrv87$fks$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:09:27 on Wed, 26 Jan
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ssrsn8$rkn$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:16 on Wed, 26 Jan
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:38:48 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
>>>>>> the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
>>>>>> with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
>>>>>
>>>>> The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL
>>>>> sprawls all over the Southern network, with many
>>>>
>>>> You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
>>>> parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
>>>> different to thameslink?
>>>
>>> Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
>>> <http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%
>>> 20Map%20-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
>>
>> It's grown a lot recently. For a long time it was just Bedford to
>> Brighton, plus the Sutton Loop.
>
>Yup. That's the main reason the franchises were merged into GTR.

They were merged because Thameslink had lots of other routes added in,
primarily from the old Great Northern area by the new tunnels north of
St Pancras, and to balance those re-assigning routes south of the river.

During the transition it was felt better to have the same organisation
running Thameslink as the sacrificial routes north and south of the
river. Although in retrospect many people think it was a
franchise-too-big.

It's going to be interesting if/when the Fat Controller gets to be in
charge of an ever bigger (and presumably therefore even less manageable)
network.

Exemplars of TOC success tend to be the smaller ones, that also don't
share metals with numerous others, like C2C and Chiltern.
--
Roland Perry

On 26/01/2022 16:31, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-01-26 10:10:03 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>
>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly
>>>>> when
>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the
>>>>> know
>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>
>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH
>>> continues
>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>
>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the
>>> underground?
>>
>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for
>> each of
>> them.
>
> In terms of branding, it is its own entity.
>
> In terms of ticketing and operating regime, it is regarded as part of
> the National Rail network in the same way that London Overground and
> Thameslink are.
>
> In terms of how the operations of services are provided, it is a
> concession let by the devolved London Assembly by TfL.  This puts it on
> the same basis as London Overground and the DLR, and also TfW Rail and
> Scotrail (let by their respective devolved authorities), but it is let
> as its own concession, separate from either the DLR or Overground.
> (Unlike these, Thameslink is a conventional TOC, under the control of
> the DfT.)
>
> In terms of infrastructure ownership, the infrastrucutre between Old Oak
> Common in the west and Abby Wood and Stratford in the East are owned by
> Crossrail Ltd, owned by TfL (in the same way that the DLR is owned by
> TfL). The other tracks, to Shenfield, and to Reading, are owned by
> Network Rail, and the Heathrow Airport branch is woned by Heathrow Airport.
>
> In terms of rolling stock, the class 345s are owned directly by TfL in
> the same way as tube and DLR trains, not owned and leased by a ROSCO.
>
> Hope that clears it up a little.
>
Good grief

So basically if my ticket opens the gates I can travel on it and if not
I can't.

On 26/01/2022 16:28, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:26:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:38:48 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
>>>>> the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
>>>>> with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
>>>>
>>>> The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls
>> all
>>>> over the Southern network, with many
>>>
>>> You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
>>> parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
>>> different to thameslink?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
>> <http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%20Map%2
>> 0-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
>
> So? How does that disprove my point? Most of crossrail runs on pre-existing
> lines , its a collection of routes, not a system.
>

ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
separate from the whole.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 2022-01-26 18:02:57 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk said:

> On 26/01/2022 16:31, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-01-26 10:10:03 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>
>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>
>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>
>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>> them.
>>
>> In terms of branding, it is its own entity.
>>
>> In terms of ticketing and operating regime, it is regarded as part of
>> the National Rail network in the same way that London Overground and
>> Thameslink are.
>>
>> In terms of how the operations of services are provided, it is a
>> concession let by the devolved London Assembly by TfL.  This puts it on
>> the same basis as London Overground and the DLR, and also TfW Rail and
>> Scotrail (let by their respective devolved authorities), but it is let
>> as its own concession, separate from either the DLR or Overground.
>> (Unlike these, Thameslink is a conventional TOC, under the control of
>> the DfT.)
>>
>> In terms of infrastructure ownership, the infrastrucutre between Old
>> Oak Common in the west and Abby Wood and Stratford in the East are
>> owned by Crossrail Ltd, owned by TfL (in the same way that the DLR is
>> owned by TfL). The other tracks, to Shenfield, and to Reading, are
>> owned by Network Rail, and the Heathrow Airport branch is woned by
>> Heathrow Airport.
>>
>> In terms of rolling stock, the class 345s are owned directly by TfL in
>> the same way as tube and DLR trains, not owned and leased by a ROSCO.
>>
>> Hope that clears it up a little.
>>
> Good grief
>
> So basically if my ticket opens the gates I can travel on it and if not
> I can't.

From a ticket perspective, it's part of the National Rail network.

Robin

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>
>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>
>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>
>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>> them.
>>>
>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>
>
> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>
>

Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>
>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>
>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>
>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>
>>
>
> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.

No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
and often third rail.

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 26/01/2022 16:28, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 16:26:16 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 13:14:24 +0000
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:38:48 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Why not, it has a separate name (even if no roundels) and parts through
>>>>>> the middle of London and out either end. The "either end" being lines
>>>>>> with other services, and predating the core [in its current form].
>>>>>
>>>>> The Liz Line is a distinct, branded network, Thameslink isn't. TL sprawls
>>> all
>>>>> over the Southern network, with many
>>>>
>>>> You could argue crossrail sprawls over the GW and eastern region. The only
>>>> parts exclusive to it are the central tunnels and abbey wood. How is that
>>>> different to thameslink?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Have you actually seen a Thameslink route map? I assume not.
>>> <http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/ThamesLink%20Network%20Map%2
>>> 0-%20Joe%20Andrews.jpg>
>>
>> So? How does that disprove my point? Most of crossrail runs on pre-existing
>> lines , its a collection of routes, not a system.
>>
>
> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
> separate from the whole.
>

Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
that could be reversed.

On 26/01/2022 19:21, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>
>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>
>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>
>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>
>>
>
> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>

The SSLs are more similar to the German S-Bahn's, IMHO.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>
> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
> and often third rail.

No, S-Bahn just means urban/suburban railway network. AFAIK, only in
Berlin and Hamburg are the S-Bahnen 3rd rail.

In Munich the S-Bahn is operated by standard class 423 AC overhead EMUs.
And standard suburban AC EMUs of various classes (classes 420, 422, 430
etc, as well as the 423) are used on most of the assorted S-Bahnen around
the country. At one time, parts of the Rhine-Ruhr S-Bahn were operated by
loco-hauled push-pull sets, initially using DB class 111 electric locos and
later using ex-DR class 143s. And the Dresden S-Bahn is operated using
double-deck push-pull sets operated by class 143 or 146 locos.

--
Jeremy Double

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>
>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>> and often third rail.
>
> No, S-Bahn just means urban/suburban railway network. AFAIK, only in
> Berlin and Hamburg are the S-Bahnen 3rd rail.
>
> In Munich the S-Bahn is operated by standard class 423 AC overhead EMUs.
> And standard suburban AC EMUs of various classes (classes 420, 422, 430
> etc, as well as the 423) are used on most of the assorted S-Bahnen around
> the country. At one time, parts of the Rhine-Ruhr S-Bahn were operated by
> loco-hauled push-pull sets, initially using DB class 111 electric locos and
> later using ex-DR class 143s. And the Dresden S-Bahn is operated using
> double-deck push-pull sets operated by class 143 or 146 locos.
>

Thanks, I wasn't aware of those.

On 25/01/2022 21:35, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>
>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>> on a tentative opening day?
>>
>
> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>

Looks like it's May now, based on this Evening Standard report:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/london-news-crossrail-sadiq-khan-tfl-b978972.html

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/01/2022 21:35, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>
>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>
>>
>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>
>
> Looks like it's May now, based on this Evening Standard report:
>
> https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/london-news-crossrail-sadiq-khan-tfl-b978972.html
>

Could be. It's somewhere between March and June, so May would be a good
guess.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>
> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
> and often third rail.
>
>

My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 2022-01-26 21:45:23 +0000, Recliner said:

> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>
>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>
> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
> and often third rail.

S-Bahn is more of a branding exercise than a meaningful technical
definition. In most places, S-Bahn branding is applied to urban and
suburban rail services in a city or metropolitan area that are, in
technical terms, simply normal mainline railway trains, operating on
shared infrastructure with the mainline network. In Berlin and Hamburg
they use 3rd rail electrification that is otherwise non-standard, and
largely on dedicated lines, but the actual technical standards to which
the trains are built are still UIC compliant. In that sense Overground
and Crossrail are both S-Bahn in concept, as is the Paris RER. The
Berlin S-Bahn is closer in concept to the LU subsurface lines in that,
while it can interoperate with mainline trains, it runs almost
exclusively on dedicated lines. The SSL of course do share tracks with
mainline trains in several locations like Richmond, Wimbledon and
Rickmansworth.

Robin

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>> separate from the whole.
>>
>
>Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>that could be reversed.

To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
10 years down the road.

Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
naff but we're stuck with it now.

In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>> separate from the whole.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
>>thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>that could be reversed.
>
>To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably thought
>it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not happening
>SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to rebrand it
>10 years down the road.
>
>Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse kissing
>naff but we're stuck with it now.

Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better.
>>> We can
>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>> that could be reversed.
>>
>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee) probably
>> thought
>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not
>> happening
>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>> rebrand it
>> 10 years down the road.
>>
>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>> kissing
>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>
> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?

Yes.

The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
proportion of users.

As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they can
use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.

My question is. Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be valid on
the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY

And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>
>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>> and often third rail.
>>
>>
>
> My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
> where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
> Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.

Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sstsk0$2p1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no meaning
>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>better. We can
>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>
>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
>>>probably thought
>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not
>>>happening
>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>>>rebrand it
>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>
>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>kissing
>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>> Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>
>Yes.
>
>The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>isn't. This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>proportion of users.
>
>As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they can
>use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
>
>My question is. Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be valid
>on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
>https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
>
>And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the spring.

If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have no
reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few changes
in recent years to routing points in East London, but perhaps only
applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via Liverpool St, Ely,
Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd be a heavy rail trip
end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such concepts as for example
Maltese Cross.
--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2022 10:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sstsk0$2p1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no
>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better.
>>>>> We can
>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>> decision
>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
>>>> probably  thought
>>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly not
>>>> happening
>>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>>>> rebrand it
>>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of arse
>>>> kissing
>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>  Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already have
>>> Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>> isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>> proportion of users.
>>
>> As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they
>> can use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
>>
>> My question is.  Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be valid
>> on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
>> https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
>>
>> And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the
>> spring.
>
> If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have no
> reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few changes
> in recent years to routing points in East London, but perhaps only
> applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via Liverpool St, Ely,
> Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd be a heavy rail trip
> end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such concepts as for example
> Maltese Cross.
My ticket would also be valid via any former Southern Region terminal as
well.

That answer is a prime example why some consider simplifying the fare
structure in Great Britain is necessary.

BTW. I've not travelled the complete Liverpool Street to Cambridge
route since the early 70s so I'm planning to travel that way in one
direction. Via Birmingham and Peterborough is also a permitted route
but the three hour gaps in the XC timetable at both ends make that route
unviable.

Am 27.01.2022 um 12:04 schrieb Sam Wilson:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 26/01/2022 10:10, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:35:13 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 25/01/2022 16:30, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60085498
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The presenter in the video said that he could not indicate exactly when
>>>>>>>>>> it would open, though perhaps somebody here is a little more in the know
>>>>>>>>>> on a tentative opening day?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I said previously, they're aiming for March, subject to successfully
>>>>>>>>> completing the various emergency and evacuation drills.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The irony of course is that its probably not really needed now if WFH continues
>>>>>>>> to any great extent beyond covid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One question no one has answered - does it count as part of the underground?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's been answered many times: No, and not LO either. Despite the name,
>>>>>>> it's regarded as a network in its own right, at the same level as LU, LO
>>>>>>> and the DLR. At stations like Stratford, you will see roundels for each of
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> More like RER, IMHO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's similar to the RER.
>>>>
>>>> Reminds me of a German S-Bahn.
>>>
>>> No, they're main line trains; S-Bahn trains are more lightly constructed,
>>> and often third rail.
>>
>> My understanding of S-Bahn has always been that they share mainline tracks
>> where appropriate; the Wikipedia article on S-Bahn specifically cites
>> Berlin and Hamburg as exceptions to this principle.
>
> Sharing tracks certainly seems to be the case around Mannheim.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine-Neckar_S-Bahn>

S-Bahn in the past stood for fast (compared to underground), frequent
suburban services with more stops than main line trains, optimized for
fast passenger entry/exit rather than for comfort; a tunnel section in
the City core is expected but not necessary.
In Hamburg and Berlin, S-Bahn had dedicated tracks due to third-rail
electrification (Hamburg has a few shared sections).
In Frankfurt, Munich, Nuremberg, Stuttgart, S-Bahn had dedicated 96cm
platforms to enable 'no steps inside' with 1970's technology
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_420>

Since the 1990's, 'S-Bahn' became a general brand for metropolitain
suburban services, some (Ruhrgebiet) using locomotives and normal local
carriages instead of EMUs, some only offering hourly rather than
frequent services on the lines, some (Rhein-Neckar) not providing any
dedicated tracks or platforms.
Since then, even Karlsruhe (not even a dedicated 'metropolitain area')
put their long-distance 'tram-trains' under the S-Bahn brand.

Rolf

In message <sstuua$j5a$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:16:25 on Thu, 27 Jan
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/01/2022 10:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sstsk0$2p1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27
>>>>Jan 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no
>>>>>>>meaning
>>>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>better. We can
>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>decision
>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
>>>>>probably  thought
>>>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly
>>>>>not happening
>>>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>>>>>rebrand it
>>>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of
>>>>>arse kissing
>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>  Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already
>>>>have Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>proportion of users.
>>>
>>> As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they
>>>can use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
>>>
>>> My question is.  Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be
>>>valid on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
>>> https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
>>>
>>> And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the
>>>spring.

>> If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have
>>no reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few
>>changes in recent years to routing points in East London, but perhaps
>>only applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via Liverpool St,
>>Ely, Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd be a heavy
>>rail trip end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such concepts as
>>for example Maltese Cross.

>My ticket would also be valid via any former Southern Region terminal
>as well.
>
>That answer is a prime example why some consider simplifying the fare
>structure in Great Britain is necessary.

Of course one simplification would be every ticket having just one
routing burnt into it.

>BTW. I've not travelled the complete Liverpool Street to Cambridge
>route since the early 70s so I'm planning to travel that way in one
>direction.

It's not that exciting. Unless you count going via the airport on a
ticket that says "Not Stansted Airport", which is in fact allowed
because the excess would be zero!!!

>Via Birmingham and Peterborough is also a permitted route but the three
>hour gaps in the XC timetable at both ends make that route unviable.

What time of day, traditionally the service would be hourly.

--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2022 12:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sstuua$j5a$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:16:25 on Thu, 27 Jan
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 27/01/2022 10:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sstsk0$2p1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:26 on Thu, 27 Jan
>>> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 27/01/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sstqla$vhn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:03:22 on Thu, 27
>>>>> Jan  2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 21:45:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ISTM "Elizabeth line" is just a brand name where "line" has no
>>>>>>>> meaning
>>>>>>>> separate from the whole.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much
>>>>>>> better.  We can
>>>>>>> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a
>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>> that could be reversed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be fair I imagine at the time he (or whichever committee)
>>>>>> probably  thought
>>>>>> it would need to be differentiated from the now almost certainly
>>>>>> not  happening
>>>>>> SW -> NE crossrail line and it would be confusing and expensive to
>>>>>> rebrand it
>>>>>> 10 years down the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I think the Elizabeth line sounds the worse kind of
>>>>>> arse  kissing
>>>>>> naff but we're stuck with it now.
>>>>>  Is it really that bad, rather than unfamiliar, given we already
>>>>> have  Victoria Line and Jubilee Line?
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> The Elizabeth Line sounds like an underground line but apparently it
>>>> isn't.  This is going to cause untold confusion to a significant
>>>> proportion of users.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can make out passengers will only know for certain they
>>>> can use the service if their ticket opens the gateline.
>>>>
>>>> My question is.  Will my super apex return from Cogan to Ely be
>>>> valid  on the direct service between Reading and Liverpool Street?
>>>> https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CGN&dest=ELY
>>>>
>>>> And before anyone asks this is a journey I'm planning to do in the
>>>> spring.
>
>>>  If that routing is also "permitted" in a general sense (and I have
>>> no  reason to think it wouldn't be, although there have been a few
>>> changes  in recent years to routing points in East London, but
>>> perhaps only  applying to doing say Reading to Manchester via
>>> Liverpool St, Ely,  Peterborough, Nottingham and Sheffield) then it'd
>>> be a heavy rail trip  end-to-end, and thus no reason to invoke such
>>> concepts as for example  Maltese Cross.
>
>> My ticket would also be valid via any former Southern Region terminal
>> as well.
>>
>> That answer is a prime example why some consider simplifying the fare
>> structure in Great Britain is necessary.
>
> Of course one simplification would be every ticket having just one
> routing burnt into it.
>
>> BTW.  I've not travelled the complete Liverpool Street to Cambridge
>> route since the early 70s so I'm planning to travel that way in one
>> direction.
>
> It's not that exciting. Unless you count going via the airport on a
> ticket that says "Not Stansted Airport", which is in fact allowed
> because the excess would be zero!!!
>
>> Via Birmingham and Peterborough is also a permitted route but the
>> three hour gaps in the XC timetable at both ends make that route
>> unviable.
>
> What time of day, traditionally the service would be hourly.
>
I will need to use the first service of the day outbound but that is the
first of the cancellations from Birmingham to Ely. The inbound
cancellations from Birmingham to Cardiff are during the afternoon when I
would want to return although I'm happy to travel via London on the return.

"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sssfdj$av8$2@dont-email.me...
> Yes, it's a stupidly misleading name — Crossrail was much better. We can
> thank Mayor Johnson for that decision. But it's obviously not a decision
> that could be reversed.

I wonder what proportion of the travelling population will refer to it as
Crossrail compared with those who call it the Elizabeth Line. It's like the
Elizabeth Tower which is the proper name for what used to be officially
called the Clock Tower and unofficially called Big Ben (yes, I know that's
the name of the hour bell).

I agree with the confusion that the official name will cause, given that
it's not regarded as an LT line and so tickets may not be valid.