Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>>> both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>>> showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>>> car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>>> will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>>>
>>> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
>>> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.

Why would they have no moving parts? Surely some at least would need to be
adjustable.

>> These little-lensed things seem to need quite frequent cleaning compared
>> to big mirrors. It took me a while to find my reversing camera tucked
>> away under a ridge by the number-plate illumination. Do posh cars have
>> self-cleaning ones?
>>
>
> Not that I'm aware of, but they might mount them in cleaner locations? I
> don't think they'd want to have any sort of
> wipers or sprayers. I suppose they could be mounted in a deep recess (in
> effect, a camera hood) to provide some
> protection.
>
> Perhaps a reversing camera could have a protective flap that only opened
> when the camera was needed? But that's then a
> flimsy moving part that could fail.

A friend’s car has it under the badge on the tailgate, which flips up when
reversing. VW, if you’re interested.

Sam

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Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t2ephk$n2$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:51:02 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:0QooSMP5+nSiFAkR@perry.uk...
>>> Parallel parking is more of a "muscle memory" activity than watching a
>>
>> Ah, you're one of the "super-human" people I mentioned. I can
>> parallel-park quickly and reliably, but only if I can see where my rear
>> near-side tyre is relative to the kerb at all times, and start to turn
>> when I gets close, also checking front left wing relative to rear right
>> wing of car ahead, and position of rear end relative to front of car
>> behind.
>>
>> Without those three sight-checks, I'd be utterly buggered.
>>
>>> And then "just do" the parking bit. I find I can reliably end up
>>> exactly one inch from the kerb. It's one of those things which the
>>> more you *think* about it, the more likely you are not to get it right.
>>
>> Hmm. I wish I could "just do" it, by muscle memory alone. I wonder how
>> long I'd have to practice to get to that stage. Evidently forty years
>> of driving, with parallel parking as required, isn't enough ;-)
>
> I can't play the piano, and probably no amount of practising would help.
>

I just press the auto park button in my car. It can self parallel park.

On 04/04/2022 14:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> Yes, the Freelander 1 didn't get very good off-road reviews. I doubt a
> CRV would have been any better.

The thing I missed most was the lack of low ratio. I have gone down a
steep track, covered in sheet ice, with ditch one side and ground
sloping away on the other by using the Discovery Low Ratio Bottom Gear.
Would not even consider it in the Freelander.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 21:04:19 +0100
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 02/04/2022 16:42, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 16:27:13 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ekgg4h15b5o0demkhpck8p5g3jdd675juh@4ax.com>, at 13:35:00 on
>>>> Sat, 2 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> It's much wider than the Freelander 2, and the 5-door is significantly
>> longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's try that again, then, from the sources mentioned so far:
>>>>
>>>> Defender 90 4323 x 1996.
>>>> Defender 110 4758 x 1996.
>>>> Freelander 2 4500 x 2180.
>>>>
>>>> Which of those is wrong?
>>>
>>> All of them unless you're a farmer or mountain rescue. Buy a normal car
>> instead
>>> of a poncemobile then you won't have to worry about lengths or heights when
>>> boarding ferries.
>>>
>>
>> See
>> https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/tyre-extin
>> guishers-manchester-didsbury-4x4s-23476934
>>
>> Same in other parts of the country.
>
> Some of those pricks deflated tyres on some electric cars. You can't educate
> stupid.
>

An electric SUV is still an SUV, which according to another of your replies
are too tall/wide/heavy etc.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>> automatically
>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>
>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be
>> seen
>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>
> Yes, when the auto-dipping facility of my passenger mirror works, it's
> great.
>
> What do you foresee the replacement for door mirrors will be? Cameras
> displaying on screens? Is it legal for a camera to display while you are
> driving forward, as opposed to when reversing? Reversing cameras have their
> uses - for determining how far your car is from the car behind, but they
> don't give you that crucial "how close is my rear nearside tyre to the kerb,
> to determine when to start turning so I'll end up parallel with the kerb"
> view.
>
> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel park
> without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they "know" at
> all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it. I'm not one of
> those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door mirrors, a central mirror
> (and/or a reversing camera if available) are essential.
>
>

My car has downward-facing cameras under each wing mirror, and on the front
and rear, which combine to give a view on screen (available while
stationary, reversing or driving at up to ~5(?)mph) which looks rather as
if a drone was hovering above the car. It's rather useful for manoeuvring,
and parking close to kerbs.

<https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/avm.html>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 16:42:49 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:

> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
....
>> Perhaps a reversing camera could have a protective flap that only
>> opened when the camera was needed? But that's then a flimsy moving
>> part that could fail.
>
> A friend’s car has it under the badge on the tailgate, which flips up
> when reversing. VW, if you’re interested.
>
> Sam

Ah! I was wondering when I saw a VW going along with its rear logo
sticking out at an angle a few days ago. I thought it might have been the
tailgate release not returned properly, but maybe it was a stuck camera
flap!

nib

On 04/04/2022 14:13, Roland Perry wrote:
> Cars have dozens of computers, that's part of the problem.

I was told of someone who bought a BMW in Europe and brought back to the
UK. It developed a fault with the Engine Management System but the BMW
dealer would not touch it because bought abroad. A replacement was at
least £1000 and that was some years ago.

He asked a local radio amateur if would have a look, he was reluctant
but agreed to look.

He opened it up and looked over the PCB with a magnifying glass, he saw
a dry joint which he repaired.

On 04/04/2022 15:48, ColinR wrote:
> Not totally correct (at least in marine law, I think Chunnel uses the
> same UN base criteria). The bale of hay for your personal horse as in a
> "pet" is classed differently than a bale of hay for your horse that is
> used commercially (ploughing on a croft / pulling carriages for hire
> etc). If there is a commercial element then it is "cargo" and falls
> within the IMDG. For personal use not so.
>
> Another example is a bottle of propane gas. Fixed to the drawbar of your
> holiday caravan it is not cargo, the same bottle on the back of a
> transit truck used by a plumber is cargo!

A friend had one in his trailer going over to Uist, the purser asked if
he had filled in a form for dangerous cargo which he hadn't so took him
up to the bridge.

After a discussion, the Master basically told the purser not to be silly
and let him travel.

On 04/04/2022 16:26, nib wrote:
> These little-lensed things seem to need quite frequent cleaning compared
> to big mirrors. It took me a while to find my reversing camera tucked
> away under a ridge by the number-plate illumination. Do posh cars have
> self-cleaning ones?

A work colleague on his van, he got fed up with false alarms so taped
over the camera / sensor.

nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 16:42:49 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>>> Perhaps a reversing camera could have a protective flap that only
>>> opened when the camera was needed? But that's then a flimsy moving
>>> part that could fail.
>>
>> A friend’s car has it under the badge on the tailgate, which flips up
>> when reversing. VW, if you’re interested.
>>
>> Sam
>
> Ah! I was wondering when I saw a VW going along with its rear logo
> sticking out at an angle a few days ago. I thought it might have been the
> tailgate release not returned properly, but maybe it was a stuck camera
> flap!

IIRC the same part serves both purposes.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 04/04/2022 16:26, nib wrote:
>> These little-lensed things seem to need quite frequent cleaning compared
>> to big mirrors. It took me a while to find my reversing camera tucked
>> away under a ridge by the number-plate illumination. Do posh cars have
>> self-cleaning ones?
>
> A work colleague on his van, he got fed up with false alarms so taped
> over the camera / sensor.

When I test drove my current car the dealer put trade plates on it. The
rear one hung down over the reversing sensors. When I tried to reverse the
auto-brake function tripped in as as soon as I started to move. It took a
few moments’ thought to work out what was going on.

Sam

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Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>> automatically
>>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>
>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be
>>> seen
>>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>
>> Yes, when the auto-dipping facility of my passenger mirror works, it's
>> great.
>>
>> What do you foresee the replacement for door mirrors will be? Cameras
>> displaying on screens? Is it legal for a camera to display while you are
>> driving forward, as opposed to when reversing? Reversing cameras have their
>> uses - for determining how far your car is from the car behind, but they
>> don't give you that crucial "how close is my rear nearside tyre to the kerb,
>> to determine when to start turning so I'll end up parallel with the kerb"
>> view.
>>
>> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel park
>> without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they "know" at
>> all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it. I'm not one of
>> those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door mirrors, a central mirror
>> (and/or a reversing camera if available) are essential.
>>
>>
>
> My car has downward-facing cameras under each wing mirror, and on the front
> and rear, which combine to give a view on screen (available while
> stationary, reversing or driving at up to ~5(?)mph) which looks rather as
> if a drone was hovering above the car. It's rather useful for manoeuvring,
> and parking close to kerbs.
>
> <https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/avm.html>

Even fairly humble Fords have rear view cameras with the likely track of
the car - which changes as the steering wheel is turned - superimposed on
the image.

Sam

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Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>>>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>>>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>>>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>>>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>>>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>>>> both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>>>> showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>>>> car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>>>> will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>>>>
>>>> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
>>>> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.
>
> Why would they have no moving parts? Surely some at least would need to be
> adjustable.

Why?

>
>>> These little-lensed things seem to need quite frequent cleaning compared
>>> to big mirrors. It took me a while to find my reversing camera tucked
>>> away under a ridge by the number-plate illumination. Do posh cars have
>>> self-cleaning ones?
>>>
>>
>> Not that I'm aware of, but they might mount them in cleaner locations? I
>> don't think they'd want to have any sort of
>> wipers or sprayers. I suppose they could be mounted in a deep recess (in
>> effect, a camera hood) to provide some
>> protection.
>>
>> Perhaps a reversing camera could have a protective flap that only opened
>> when the camera was needed? But that's then a
>> flimsy moving part that could fail.
>
> A friend’s car has it under the badge on the tailgate, which flips up when
> reversing. VW, if you’re interested.
>

Yes, good idea.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>>>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>>>>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>>>>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>>>>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>>>>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>>>>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>>>>> both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>>>>> showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>>>>> car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>>>>> will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>>>>>
>>>>> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
>>>>> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.
>>
>> Why would they have no moving parts? Surely some at least would need to be
>> adjustable.
>
> Why?

Because different drivers like subtly different views in their “mirrors”.
An example would be how much of your own vehicle you like to see in the
door mirror, assuming a camera would be in roughly the same place. Maybe
it’s not an issue for many people, but I think it might be for me.

Sam

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Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>>>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>>>>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>>>>>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>>>>>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>>>>>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>>>>>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>>>>>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>>>>>> both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>>>>>> showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>>>>>> car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>>>>>> will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
>>>>>> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.
>>>
>>> Why would they have no moving parts? Surely some at least would need to be
>>> adjustable.
>>
>> Why?
>
> Because different drivers like subtly different views in their “mirrors”.
> An example would be how much of your own vehicle you like to see in the
> door mirror, assuming a camera would be in roughly the same place. Maybe
> it’s not an issue for many people, but I think it might be for me.
>

I very much doubt that such adjustments would need the camera to be moved.
In fact, I suspect most cars won't offer that adjustment at all.

But, if needed, they could all be done electronically, by simply providing
a modest digital zoom function, which determines how wide a view you see on
the monitor. The physical camera would have a relatively wide angle, with
the displayed image zoomed or moved electronically. And, of course, unlike
with physical mirrors, no adjustments are needed to compensate for driver
height or seat position.

On 04/04/2022 22:34, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
>>>>>>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>>>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>>>>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>>>>>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>>>>>>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>>>>>>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>>>>>>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>>>>>>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>>>>>>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>>>>>>> both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>>>>>>> showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>>>>>>> car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>>>>>>> will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
>>>>>>> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.
>>>>
>>>> Why would they have no moving parts? Surely some at least would need to be
>>>> adjustable.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> Because different drivers like subtly different views in their “mirrors”.
>> An example would be how much of your own vehicle you like to see in the
>> door mirror, assuming a camera would be in roughly the same place. Maybe
>> it’s not an issue for many people, but I think it might be for me.
>>
>
> I very much doubt that such adjustments would need the camera to be moved.
> In fact, I suspect most cars won't offer that adjustment at all.
>
> But, if needed, they could all be done electronically, by simply providing
> a modest digital zoom function, which determines how wide a view you see on
> the monitor. The physical camera would have a relatively wide angle, with
> the displayed image zoomed or moved electronically. And, of course, unlike
> with physical mirrors, no adjustments are needed to compensate for driver
> height or seat position.
>

Youtube has some videos on the system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqWkJJOcU4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H4b9DarSsw (about 1 min 20sec)

--
Colin

On 04/04/2022 21:51, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>> automatically
>>>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be
>>>> seen
>>>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>
>>> Yes, when the auto-dipping facility of my passenger mirror works, it's
>>> great.
>>>
>>> What do you foresee the replacement for door mirrors will be? Cameras
>>> displaying on screens? Is it legal for a camera to display while you are
>>> driving forward, as opposed to when reversing? Reversing cameras have their
>>> uses - for determining how far your car is from the car behind, but they
>>> don't give you that crucial "how close is my rear nearside tyre to the kerb,
>>> to determine when to start turning so I'll end up parallel with the kerb"
>>> view.
>>>
>>> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel park
>>> without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they "know" at
>>> all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it. I'm not one of
>>> those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door mirrors, a central mirror
>>> (and/or a reversing camera if available) are essential.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My car has downward-facing cameras under each wing mirror, and on the front
>> and rear, which combine to give a view on screen (available while
>> stationary, reversing or driving at up to ~5(?)mph) which looks rather as
>> if a drone was hovering above the car. It's rather useful for manoeuvring,
>> and parking close to kerbs.
>>
>> <https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/avm.html>
>
> Even fairly humble Fords have rear view cameras with the likely track of
> the car - which changes as the steering wheel is turned - superimposed on
> the image.
>
> Sam
>

Agreed, but nowhere ner as comprehensive a view as Anna's Nissan or my
old MG.

--
Colin

On 04/04/2022 19:55, MB wrote:
> On 04/04/2022 15:48, ColinR wrote:
>> Not totally correct (at least in marine law, I think Chunnel uses the
>> same UN base criteria). The bale of hay for your personal horse as in a
>> "pet" is classed differently than a bale of hay for your horse that is
>> used commercially (ploughing on a croft / pulling carriages for hire
>> etc). If there is a commercial element then it is "cargo" and falls
>> within the IMDG. For personal use not so.
>>
>> Another example is a bottle of propane gas. Fixed to the drawbar of your
>> holiday caravan it is not cargo, the same bottle on the back of a
>> transit truck used by a plumber is cargo!
>
> A friend had one in his trailer going over to Uist, the purser asked if
> he had filled in a form for dangerous cargo which he hadn't so took him
> up to the bridge.
>
> After a discussion, the Master basically told the purser not to be silly
> and let him travel.
>

Not clear cut, especially in Scottish islands where many such trailers
are linked to crofters (and so technically commercial and therefore "goods")

But good sense took over from rigid compliance with the rules as is
normal in rural areas.

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/04/2022 21:51, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>> automatically
>>>>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be
>>>>> seen
>>>>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, when the auto-dipping facility of my passenger mirror works, it's
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> What do you foresee the replacement for door mirrors will be? Cameras
>>>> displaying on screens? Is it legal for a camera to display while you are
>>>> driving forward, as opposed to when reversing? Reversing cameras have their
>>>> uses - for determining how far your car is from the car behind, but they
>>>> don't give you that crucial "how close is my rear nearside tyre to the kerb,
>>>> to determine when to start turning so I'll end up parallel with the kerb"
>>>> view.
>>>>
>>>> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel park
>>>> without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they "know" at
>>>> all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it. I'm not one of
>>>> those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door mirrors, a central mirror
>>>> (and/or a reversing camera if available) are essential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> My car has downward-facing cameras under each wing mirror, and on the front
>>> and rear, which combine to give a view on screen (available while
>>> stationary, reversing or driving at up to ~5(?)mph) which looks rather as
>>> if a drone was hovering above the car. It's rather useful for manoeuvring,
>>> and parking close to kerbs.
>>>
>>> <https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/avm.html>
>>
>> Even fairly humble Fords have rear view cameras with the likely track of
>> the car - which changes as the steering wheel is turned - superimposed on
>> the image.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Agreed, but nowhere ner as comprehensive a view as Anna's Nissan or my
> old MG.
>

And there's a lot more freedom in where to place the tiny cameras compared
to large, old-fashioned physical door and interior mirrors. They can
completely eliminate blind spots in all directions. For example, sideways
facing cameras in the front bumpers can provide a better view of a main
road when joining from a side road.

And it won't be long before cars can self-park better than the best human
drivers.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 09:50:50 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t2ean5$181m$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:53 on Mon, 4 Apr
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> Plus they're all shorter than my very normal estate car, and all but the
>>>> 110 are shorter or the same as my very normal hatchback.
>>>
>>> And much higher.
>>
>> Why does that matter?
>
> Multi story car parks, ferries, eurotunnel, roll over.
>
>

Wait but you just suggested getting a Transit as an alternative. Which is
surely even higher?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>> automatically
>>>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be
>>>> seen
>>>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>
>>> Yes, when the auto-dipping facility of my passenger mirror works, it's
>>> great.
>>>
>>> What do you foresee the replacement for door mirrors will be? Cameras
>>> displaying on screens? Is it legal for a camera to display while you are
>>> driving forward, as opposed to when reversing? Reversing cameras have their
>>> uses - for determining how far your car is from the car behind, but they
>>> don't give you that crucial "how close is my rear nearside tyre to the kerb,
>>> to determine when to start turning so I'll end up parallel with the kerb"
>>> view.
>>>
>>> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel park
>>> without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they "know" at
>>> all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it. I'm not one of
>>> those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door mirrors, a central mirror
>>> (and/or a reversing camera if available) are essential.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My car has downward-facing cameras under each wing mirror, and on the front
>> and rear, which combine to give a view on screen (available while
>> stationary, reversing or driving at up to ~5(?)mph) which looks rather as
>> if a drone was hovering above the car. It's rather useful for manoeuvring,
>> and parking close to kerbs.
>>
>> <https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/avm.html>
>
> Even fairly humble Fords have rear view cameras with the likely track of
> the car - which changes as the steering wheel is turned - superimposed on
> the image.
>

That's useful too, an appears alongside the 360° view on my car; but this
is a sort above that.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t2fr7u$hur$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:25:03 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 04/04/2022 19:55, MB wrote:
>> On 04/04/2022 15:48, ColinR wrote:
>>> Not totally correct (at least in marine law, I think Chunnel uses the
>>> same UN base criteria). The bale of hay for your personal horse as in a
>>> "pet" is classed differently than a bale of hay for your horse that is
>>> used commercially (ploughing on a croft / pulling carriages for hire
>>> etc). If there is a commercial element then it is "cargo" and falls
>>> within the IMDG. For personal use not so.
>>>
>>> Another example is a bottle of propane gas. Fixed to the drawbar of your
>>> holiday caravan it is not cargo, the same bottle on the back of a
>>> transit truck used by a plumber is cargo!
>> A friend had one in his trailer going over to Uist, the purser asked
>>if he had filled in a form for dangerous cargo which he hadn't so
>>took him up to the bridge.
>> After a discussion, the Master basically told the purser not to be
>>silly and let him travel.
>>
>
>Not clear cut, especially in Scottish islands where many such trailers
>are linked to crofters (and so technically commercial and therefore
>"goods")
>
>But good sense took over from rigid compliance with the rules as is
>normal in rural areas.

And people in rural areas don't seem quite so put out when "shit
happens" as Townies. There was an artic which left the A10 on the
Norfolk border yesterday, split in two, and one half could have
ended up in the river. Road blocked for a couple of hours, local
reaction "nothing to see here".
--
Roland Perry

On 05/04/2022 00:19, Recliner wrote:
> And it won't be long before cars can self-park better than the best human
> drivers.

Never felt confident to try it out with my VW!

On 05/04/2022 07:04, Roland Perry wrote:
> And people in rural areas don't seem quite so put out when "shit
> happens" as Townies. There was an artic which left the A10 on the
> Norfolk border yesterday, split in two, and one half could have
> ended up in the river. Road blocked for a couple of hours, local
> reaction "nothing to see here".

And sometimes they will "self clear" the road. I once managed to move a
HGV blocking the road with one of the Range Rovers - only moved it a few
inches (transmission failure) but that was enough to another HGV past -
plod was very happy!

A colleague managed to get a service bus back on the road with a bit of
a pull.

Once saw a gritter that could not get up a hill so a local gritted it
from his pickup.

Townies would just sit moaning!

In message <t2god7$ljv$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:42:46 on Tue, 5 Apr 2022,
MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 05/04/2022 07:04, Roland Perry wrote:
>> And people in rural areas don't seem quite so put out when "shit
>> happens" as Townies. There was an artic which left the A10 on the
>> Norfolk border yesterday, split in two, and one half could have
>> ended up in the river. Road blocked for a couple of hours, local
>> reaction "nothing to see here".
>
>And sometimes they will "self clear" the road. I once managed to move
>a HGV blocking the road with one of the Range Rovers

See - they do have their uses!

>- only moved it a few inches (transmission failure) but that was enough
>to another HGV past - plod was very happy!
>
>A colleague managed to get a service bus back on the road with a bit of
>a pull.
>
>Once saw a gritter that could not get up a hill so a local gritted it
>from his pickup.
>
>Townies would just sit moaning!

--
Roland Perry