On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:00:12 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:DJR1EOHiJMNiFAKA@perry.uk...
>>>I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>>embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal,
>>
>> Normal for where - HS1, the LGV Nord, or somewhere else?
>>
>>>to take carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>
>Fair question. Is HS1 in the UK and the Eurostar routes in mainland Europe
>wide/high enough to take the Eurotunnel shuttle carriages or can these only
>run for a short distance either side of the tunnel as far as the road
>termini? I imagine that HS1 (and HS2 when it's built) have a more generous
>loading gauge than the normal one for domestic UK lines, but is it *that*
>wide?

The shuttle car transporters are bigger than anything on any European
loading gauge and can't go anywhere other than between the terminals.
HS1 (and forthcoming HSx) is built to UIC GC loading gauge, which means
it can carry anything capable of reaching the tunnel from France. It's
bigger than UIC GB+, which is the standard pan-European gauge (and note
that "GB" has nothing to do with "Great Britain", it's just the
intermediate between GA and GC, where "G" stands for "gauge").

Other than the shuttle car and HGV transporters, everything else that
currently uses the tunnel (including the Class 9000 locomotives that
haul the shuttles) will fit within UIC G1 (UIC 505-1). The more generous
spacing of UIC GC is intended primarily for future compatibility.

Mark

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:54:23 -0000
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> also claims that one). How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>> different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>
> Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
> be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train until you
> meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>
>

There are two halves of the train which are boarded at the same time; and
the double-deck half loads both decks at once, though there's only one lane
down to the platform from the queueing area.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>> How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>> different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>
>> Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>> be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train until you
>> meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>
> You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
> passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
> walk through every carriage.
>
> It's a long time since I've done it, but each Eurotunnel train is split
> into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>

No, just two sections. So you drive half the train.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t129nu$pr3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:50:22 on Fri, 18 Mar
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:15:39 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>> How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>>>> different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>>>
>>>> Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>>>> be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train
>>>> until you
>>>
>>>> meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>>>
>>> You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>>> passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>>> walk through every carriage.
>>
>> You very much do if you're the first vehicle on either level.
>
> The train is absurdly long for that to be the case. 29 or 30 carriages,
> give or take rounding errors.
>

Wikipedia isn't forthcoming but I count 10 or 11 carriages per half-train
on Google maps, not including the loading carriages. The vehicle-carrying
wagons are each 26m.

>>> It's a long time since I've done it,
>>
>> Translation: never
>
> Re-Translation: a long time. Mainly the first couple of years of
> operation, because as a shareholder we were given a small number
> of free return tickets.
>
>>> but each Eurotunnel train is split
>>> into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>>
>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>> double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving on
>> from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and lower
>> decks.
>
> How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
> further reaches?

Eh?

The train is in two halves. From the front: loco, unloading carriage, 10/11
vehicle carrying wagons, loading carriage, then repeat unloading carriage,
10/11 vehicle carrying wagons, loading carriage, loco. One half double deck
(cars only on either deck), one half single deck (coaches, motorhomes, SUVs
etc).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
> news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>> double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>> on
>>>> from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>> lower
>>>> decks.
>>>
>>> How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>> further reaches?
>>
>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>> train
>> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
>> through the tunnel a dozen times.
>
> Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
> in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
> train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
> sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
> necessary to take a side door out of action.
>

Eh? The train is in two halves, one double deck (cars only) and one single
deck (coaches, motorhomes, SUVs etc). At each end of each half is a
loading/unloading vehicle, there's no vehicle access between the two halves
and I doubt if there's pedestrian access either (other than staff).

> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
> carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>

Yes, significantly larger than usual UK or continental loading gauge.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:40:55 -0000 (UTC), nib
> <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the double-
>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries have
>> their own vehicles on different trains.
>
> That's correct.
>
>> The terminal platforms have two entrance ramps each, one at the rear of
>> the train (for the rear half) and one just before the middle (for the
>> front half), and two exit ramps, one just after the middle and one at the
>> front of the train.
>>
>> Trains run around at both ends, so the front is always the front.
>
> And the trains are all identical and always the same. If the front
> section isn't fully occupied by overheight vehicles then cars will be
> put there, too. Conversely, at times of low demand then only the lower
> floor of the double deck section is used.
>
> There's a good set of photos on Wikimedia Commons:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Channel_Tunnel_car_shuttle
>
> Note that some of them show cars in the single deck (full height)
> section. My understanding is that it's fairly unusual for the sngle deck
> section to be fully occupied by overheight vehicles, outside peak
> holiday travel times, so the additional space is usually filled with
> cars. That said, I've never ended up in that section when taking my car
> on the shuttle myself. I've always been in the double deck section (and,
> oddly enough, mostly on the top deck, although I'm sure that's pure
> coincidence). I've only been in the front section once, on a company
> coach trip to France in the 1990s. And yes, I do mean once, because we
> came back on the ferry. But that's a different story!
>
>

I've always travelled as part of a group of very distinctive cars (clearly
travelling as a group) with low ground clearance, and we always get put
lower deck, and usually in the single deck section.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:DJR1EOHiJMNiFAKA@perry.uk...
>>> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal,
>>
>> Normal for where - HS1, the LGV Nord, or somewhere else?
>>
>>> to take carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>
> Fair question. Is HS1 in the UK and the Eurostar routes in mainland Europe
> wide/high enough to take the Eurotunnel shuttle carriages or can these only
> run for a short distance either side of the tunnel as far as the road
> termini? I imagine that HS1 (and HS2 when it's built) have a more generous
> loading gauge than the normal one for domestic UK lines, but is it *that*
> wide?
>
>

No, the Le Shuttle trains are restricted to terminal loop to terminal loop,
plus depot access. They're far bigger than the loading gauge of HS1 or LGV.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the double-
>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries have
>> their own vehicles on different trains.
>
> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than using
> the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very long side
> doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to enter.
>
>

The HGV wagons are open (or almost open) flat wagons; the HGV drivers leave
their vehicles and travel together in a passenger carriage at the front of
the train. The public car/van/coach trains are entirely enclosed and
drivers and pass remain with their vehicles.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12q36$8ou$2@dont-email.me...
>>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
>>> routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
>>> ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country to
>>> Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that the
>>> ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was actually
>>> well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out of the way
>>> than Sangatte.
>>
>> You wouldn't get very far driving to Ashford.
>
> OK, wherever the UK Eurotunnel terminal is. You can tell I've never been
> there ;-)
>
>>> How many parallel streams of traffic can board different parts of a
>>> Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>
>> 2, top and bottom
>
> Ah, only two. I wasn't sure whether each level had multiple boarding streams
> in parallel, one per carriage or per group of a few carriages. So on each
> level, vehicles only board from one end and potentially may have to drive
> the full length of the train (*) inside it before they park.
>
> (*) Excluding the full-height coach section of the train.
>
>

Train in two halves, double deck and single deck. Loading at the rear of
each half, drive forwards until you reach the stopped car in front. Precise
parking instructed by a staff member. Drive the remainder of your half of
the train to leave.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>, ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>occasions.

>OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>points that could be difficult to replace.
>Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.

There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
branded events, of course.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>> occasions.
>
>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>
> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
> branded events, of course.

Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
activities? I've not noticed any such usage.

In message <j9kkheF7706U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:30 on Fri, 18
Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>
>> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>
>Relevant to this group was the Swiss based multinational Brown Boveri &Cie
>who used the initials BBC on company logos at times, much of their output
>was for Railways and Railway electrification .

At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t12qt7$8ou$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:19 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician
>>as
>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>
>The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre

Or according to my contemporaries who worked there "the Broken Biscuit
Corporation".
--
Roland Perry

In message <t12t38$di$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:02:53 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the double-
>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries have
>> their own vehicles on different trains.
>
>I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to
>enter.

It's more about potentially hazardous cargo than the size of the
vehicles.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t12ufu$bhc$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:44:17 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:t12taf$7mm$5@dont-email.me...
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:
>>
>>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>>>> double-
>>>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>>>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>>>
>>> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>>> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>>> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to
>>> enter.
>>
>> Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
>> carriages.
>>
>> Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a separate
>> coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency, they can
>> leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers out of each
>> end.
>
>Ah, I wondered whether car/coach passengers also had to leave their
>vehicles and go to a central "passenger lounge" area, as they have to
>on car ferries nowadays.
>
>One day I'm determined to go on either Eurostar or Le Shuttle and see
>what everyone is talking about. The problem with going by car is the
>driving on the other side. Driving an LHD car on the right would be
>mildly disconcerting but I did in the US when I was 20 years younger
>and I'd probably be OK as most things are a mirror image. Driving an
>RHD car on the right would be terrifying because I would be on the
>wrong side of the car and would be entirely reliant on my wife for "am
>I clear to overtake" as she would be better placed to see oncoming cars
>and could angle her door mirror to see cars coming from behind on a
>motorway, which requires less effort of refocussing than for me having
>to look right across to a correctly-angled passenger door mirror on the
>opposite side of the car, and then readjust to looking straight ahead
>again afterwards. I can scan both the road ahead and a driver's side
>door mirror with ease because your eyes don't have to move as far. I'd
>only really contemplate driving on the right in an LHD car that was
>correctly designed for driving on that side; maybe when I was younger
>I'd have relished driving RHD on the right as a challenge.

I've never driven a RHD car on the right in North America, but quite a
bit in Belgium/Germany/Netherlands. You just have to be less ambitious
about overtaking things.

Talking of which, round here there are many American airmen at bases who
have LHD cars (not because they imported their pre-owned cars from USA,
that died out long ago, but because their next posting is more likely to
be in a LHD country than a RHD one) and they are prohibited by military
rules from overtaking *at all* on the local roads, because of the number
of RTAs in the past.

If one was being cynical, that's not to protect the locals, but the US's
investment in their human assets.

My wife is American and when she moved to the UK, expressed some
trepidation about driving RHD cars on the left of our roads (ie our
normal format).

The very simple rule I gave her, which has worked for over 30yrs is "if
you see the white line in the middle of the road through your driver's
door window (not the passenger door's window), you are OK.

We did for a couple of years have a LHD Disco in our domestic car pool,
which the previous owner had bought to do field trips in Eastern Europe.
But she never drove that (it was a bit of a handful anyway, and not in
any event suited for much in the way of boy-racer overtaking moves even
had it been RHD).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t13eas$o5h$3@dont-email.me>, at 02:14:52 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> The train is absurdly long for that to be the case. 29 or 30 carriages,
>> give or take rounding errors.
>
>Wikipedia isn't forthcoming

It says the trains are 775m long, and 775/26 = 29.8

>but I count 10 or 11 carriages per half-train on Google maps, not
>including the loading carriages. The vehicle-carrying wagons are each
>26m.

--
Roland Perry

On 18/03/2022 09:55, NY wrote:

> As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands
> which have been bought up by UK companies,

Rolls Royce (not the cars) owns various German engine brands.

There are probably quite a lot of UK-based investment entities that
no-one outside the City has heard of which own foreign brands.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 18/03/2022 21:15, NY wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>>
>>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>>
>> It was P&O by then.
>
> Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O
> with Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the
> outside after changing owner to P&O. Ah,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the
> owner was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly
> the photo of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in
> big letters.

The take-over was not long before the disaster so the ships were still
in TT livery and presumably still operating as TT.

>
>> A couple of my colleagues were on that, fortunately they both survived.
>
> Christ. They had a lucky escape. We should indeed never forget Zeebrugge

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/03/2022 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t12qt7$8ou$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:43:19 on Fri, 18 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>  Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>
>> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>
> Or according to my contemporaries who worked there "the Broken Biscuit
> Corporation".

Broken Biscuit Company, actually :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>> occasions.
>>
>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>
>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>> branded events, of course.
>
>Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>activities? I've not noticed any such usage.

This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different tour
operator.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t13eas$o5h$3@dont-email.me>, at 02:14:52 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> The train is absurdly long for that to be the case. 29 or 30 carriages,
>>> give or take rounding errors.
>>
>> Wikipedia isn't forthcoming
>
> It says the trains are 775m long, and 775/26 = 29.8
>

You need to account for two locomotives and four loading vehicles too. And
it says 'approximately' 775m with no indication where that approximate
figure originated.

>> but I count 10 or 11 carriages per half-train on Google maps, not
>> including the loading carriages. The vehicle-carrying wagons are each
>> 26m.
>

12 vehicle-carrying wagons per half-train. <https://youtu.be/JZfmAvviKNw>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 07:43:44 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message <t12ufu$bhc$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:44:17 on Fri, 18 Mar
> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>"nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:t12taf$7mm$5@dont-email.me...
>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:
>>>
>>>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>>>>> double-
>>>>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>>>>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>>>> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>>>> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!)
>>>> to enter.
>>>
>>> Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
>>> carriages.
>>>
>>> Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a
>>> separate coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency,
>>> they can leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers
>>> out of each end.
>>
>>Ah, I wondered whether car/coach passengers also had to leave their
>>vehicles and go to a central "passenger lounge" area, as they have to on
>>car ferries nowadays.
>>
>>One day I'm determined to go on either Eurostar or Le Shuttle and see
>>what everyone is talking about. The problem with going by car is the
>>driving on the other side. Driving an LHD car on the right would be
>>mildly disconcerting but I did in the US when I was 20 years younger and
>>I'd probably be OK as most things are a mirror image. Driving an RHD car
>>on the right would be terrifying because I would be on the wrong side of
>>the car and would be entirely reliant on my wife for "am I clear to
>>overtake" as she would be better placed to see oncoming cars and could
>>angle her door mirror to see cars coming from behind on a motorway,
>>which requires less effort of refocussing than for me having to look
>>right across to a correctly-angled passenger door mirror on the opposite
>>side of the car, and then readjust to looking straight ahead again
>>afterwards. I can scan both the road ahead and a driver's side door
>>mirror with ease because your eyes don't have to move as far. I'd only
>>really contemplate driving on the right in an LHD car that was correctly
>>designed for driving on that side; maybe when I was younger I'd have
>>relished driving RHD on the right as a challenge.
>
> I've never driven a RHD car on the right in North America, but quite a
> bit in Belgium/Germany/Netherlands. You just have to be less ambitious
> about overtaking things.
>
....

There are techniques! I had a LHD Smart for a few years. When you see the
road apparently clear you have to pull over to the right to get a better
view, without accelerating, and being prepared to pull back smartish in
if it's not clear, and only accelerate and start passing when you can see
it's really clear.

Harder part is getting tickets in car parks, though the Smart was so
small that sometimes you could lean across far enough.

nib

On 19/03/2022 09:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>>> occasions.
>>>
>>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>
>>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>>> branded events, of course.
>>
>>Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>>activities? I've not noticed any such usage.
>
>This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
>Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different tour
>operator.

Yes,of course it was. Why would you think otherwise?

In message <t149gu$3uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:54 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 19/03/2022 09:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>>>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>>>> occasions.
>>>>
>>>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>>>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>>>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>>>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>>>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>>>> branded events, of course.
>>>
>>>Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>>>activities? I've not noticed any such usage.
>>
>>This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
>>Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different
>>tour operator.
>
>Yes,of course it was. Why would you think otherwise?

Only the lack of transparency about who operates what.

OK, so which other than A1Tours was using the Flying Scotsman trade name
to promote its tour to Kent?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Note that some of them show cars in the single deck (full height)
>> section. My understanding is that it's fairly unusual for the sngle deck
>> section to be fully occupied by overheight vehicles, outside peak
>> holiday travel times, so the additional space is usually filled with
>> cars. That said, I've never ended up in that section when taking my car
>> on the shuttle myself. I've always been in the double deck section (and,
>> oddly enough, mostly on the top deck, although I'm sure that's pure
>> coincidence). I've only been in the front section once, on a company
>> coach trip to France in the 1990s. And yes, I do mean once, because we
>> came back on the ferry. But that's a different story!
>
>I've always travelled as part of a group of very distinctive cars (clearly
>travelling as a group) with low ground clearance, and we always get put
>lower deck, and usually in the single deck section.

The ramp to the top deck is pretty steep, so I would imagine there's a
non-trivial risk of grounding at the transition for anything with
non-standard clearance. So I suppose that's a good reason for putting
anything non-standard on the lower deck or in the single deck section,
which would therefore increase the probability that a standard car will
be on the top deck.

Mark