On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 07:43:44 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>I've never driven a RHD car on the right in North America, but quite a
>bit in Belgium/Germany/Netherlands. You just have to be less ambitious
>about overtaking things.

It's easy enough on a dual carriageway, of course. But the tollbooths on
French autoroutes can be a bit of a pain if you don't have a passenger.

Mark

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:52 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>> news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>
>>>>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>>> double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>>> on
>>>>> from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>>> lower
>>>>> decks.
>>>>
>>>> How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>>> further reaches?
>>>
>>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>>> train
>>> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
>>> through the tunnel a dozen times.
>>
>> Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
>> in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
>> train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
>> sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
>> necessary to take a side door out of action.
>>
>
>Eh? The train is in two halves, one double deck (cars only) and one single
>deck (coaches, motorhomes, SUVs etc). At each end of each half is a
>loading/unloading vehicle, there's no vehicle access between the two halves
>and I doubt if there's pedestrian access either (other than staff).
>
>> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
>> carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>>
>
>Yes, significantly larger than usual UK or continental loading gauge.

IIRC its the widest loading guage in the world for normal standard gauge
trains but not the highest, though I wonder if it would be possible to get
double stacked containers through or whether they'd foul the catenary?

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 12:24:46 +0000
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 07:43:44 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>I've never driven a RHD car on the right in North America, but quite a
>>bit in Belgium/Germany/Netherlands. You just have to be less ambitious
>>about overtaking things.
>
>It's easy enough on a dual carriageway, of course. But the tollbooths on
>French autoroutes can be a bit of a pain if you don't have a passenger.

Or even if you have a passenger and she can't count euro coins and starts
to get flustered :/

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12taf$7mm$5@dont-email.me...
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:
>>
>>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>>>> double-
>>>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>>>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>>>
>>> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>>> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>>> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to
>>> enter.
>>
>> Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
>> carriages.
>>
>> Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a separate
>> coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency, they can
>> leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers out of each
>> end.
>
> Ah, I wondered whether car/coach passengers also had to leave their vehicles
> and go to a central "passenger lounge" area, as they have to on car ferries
> nowadays.
>

It'd delay the service considerably, I think, and shorten the trains too
(considering that the single-deck half of the train could conceivably carry
12 coaches each with 50 passengers, you'd need seating for 600). The double
deck coaches can each hold 8 cars which could each hold 4-7 people, so
that’s another 600….

> One day I'm determined to go on either Eurostar or Le Shuttle and see what
> everyone is talking about. The problem with going by car is the driving on
> the other side. Driving an LHD car on the right would be mildly
> disconcerting but I did in the US when I was 20 years younger and I'd
> probably be OK as most things are a mirror image. Driving an RHD car on the
> right would be terrifying because I would be on the wrong side of the car
> and would be entirely reliant on my wife for "am I clear to overtake" as she
> would be better placed to see oncoming cars and could angle her door mirror
> to see cars coming from behind on a motorway, which requires less effort of
> refocussing than for me having to look right across to a correctly-angled
> passenger door mirror on the opposite side of the car, and then readjust to
> looking straight ahead again afterwards. I can scan both the road ahead and
> a driver's side door mirror with ease because your eyes don't have to move
> as far. I'd only really contemplate driving on the right in an LHD car that
> was correctly designed for driving on that side; maybe when I was younger
> I'd have relished driving RHD on the right as a challenge.
>
>

I didn't find it anywhere near as difficult as you're making out.

Overtaking on motorways is fine, it's just the same actions as checking
that the lane is clear before pulling back in after overtaking (or perhaps
a more accurate equivalent, pulling left into a lane at a complicated
junction where a lane joins and then leaves again).

Overtaking on single-carriageway roads is more difficult, and having a
trustworthy passenger to assist is very helpful. Otherwise, hang well back
to get get a better view. Or put up with following the slow thing.

The biggest problem for me, especially initially, was aiming for the
correct side of the road when pulling out of t-junctions, in the absence of
other traffic around to remind me!

Similarly I twice set off on the wrong side of the road in quiet villages
with no other vehicles around to offer the hint.

Oh and then for a few weeks after returning home I had to constantly
reassure myself that I was now on the correct side of the road!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 07:43:44 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> In message <t12ufu$bhc$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:44:17 on Fri, 18 Mar
>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t12taf$7mm$5@dont-email.me...
>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>>>>>> double-
>>>>>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>>>>>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>>>>> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>>>>> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!)
>>>>> to enter.
>>>>
>>>> Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
>>>> carriages.
>>>>
>>>> Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a
>>>> separate coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency,
>>>> they can leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers
>>>> out of each end.
>>>
>>> Ah, I wondered whether car/coach passengers also had to leave their
>>> vehicles and go to a central "passenger lounge" area, as they have to on
>>> car ferries nowadays.
>>>
>>> One day I'm determined to go on either Eurostar or Le Shuttle and see
>>> what everyone is talking about. The problem with going by car is the
>>> driving on the other side. Driving an LHD car on the right would be
>>> mildly disconcerting but I did in the US when I was 20 years younger and
>>> I'd probably be OK as most things are a mirror image. Driving an RHD car
>>> on the right would be terrifying because I would be on the wrong side of
>>> the car and would be entirely reliant on my wife for "am I clear to
>>> overtake" as she would be better placed to see oncoming cars and could
>>> angle her door mirror to see cars coming from behind on a motorway,
>>> which requires less effort of refocussing than for me having to look
>>> right across to a correctly-angled passenger door mirror on the opposite
>>> side of the car, and then readjust to looking straight ahead again
>>> afterwards. I can scan both the road ahead and a driver's side door
>>> mirror with ease because your eyes don't have to move as far. I'd only
>>> really contemplate driving on the right in an LHD car that was correctly
>>> designed for driving on that side; maybe when I was younger I'd have
>>> relished driving RHD on the right as a challenge.
>>
>> I've never driven a RHD car on the right in North America, but quite a
>> bit in Belgium/Germany/Netherlands. You just have to be less ambitious
>> about overtaking things.
>>
> ...
>
> There are techniques! I had a LHD Smart for a few years. When you see the
> road apparently clear you have to pull over to the right to get a better
> view, without accelerating, and being prepared to pull back smartish in
> if it's not clear, and only accelerate and start passing when you can see
> it's really clear.
>
> Harder part is getting tickets in car parks, though the Smart was so
> small that sometimes you could lean across far enough.
>

The reason I got a télépéage device for French motorway tolls!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t149gu$3uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:54 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 19/03/2022 09:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>>>>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>>>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>>>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>>>>> occasions.
>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>>>>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>>>>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>>>>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>>>>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>>>>> branded events, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>>>> activities? I've not noticed any such usage.
>>>
>>> This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
>>> Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different
>>> tour operator.
>>
>> Yes,of course it was. Why would you think otherwise?
>
> Only the lack of transparency about who operates what.
>
> OK, so which other than A1Tours was using the Flying Scotsman trade name
> to promote its tour to Kent?

The recent FS tour to Kent was operated by Steam Dreams.

"A1 Tours" doesn't produce any Google hits for steam trains; the A1 Steam
Locomotive Trust built and operate Tornado, I don't expect that they'd run
tours using any other loco?

FS is an A3.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 09:55, NY wrote:
>
>> As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands
>> which have been bought up by UK companies,
>
> Rolls Royce (not the cars) owns various German engine brands.

Yes, I notice that users of UK trains with MTU engines now refer to them as
Rolls-Royce engines.

>
> There are probably quite a lot of UK-based investment entities that
> no-one outside the City has heard of which own foreign brands.
>

For some years, Burger King was UK-owned.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t149gu$3uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:54 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 19/03/2022 09:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>>>>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>>>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>>>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>>>>> occasions.
>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>>>>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>>>>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>>>>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>>>>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>>>>> branded events, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>>>> activities? I've not noticed any such usage.
>>>
>>> This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
>>> Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different
>>> tour operator.
>>
>> Yes,of course it was. Why would you think otherwise?
>
> Only the lack of transparency about who operates what.
>
> OK, so which other than A1Tours was using the Flying Scotsman trade name
> to promote its tour to Kent?

What do you mean by 'other than A1 Tours was using the Flying Scotsman
trade name to promote its tour to Kent'?

It obviously couldn't, by definition, be A1 Steam. It was Steam Dreams. And
it obviously wasn't 'using the Flying Scotsman trade name'. It was simply
advertising that the loco hauling its trains to and from Canterbury would
be 60103.

For future reference, you should know that if a steam tour mentions Flying
Scotsman, it means the loco, not a brand. And it certainly won't be the A1
Steam Locomotive Trust, which only operates the A1, not the A3.

http://www.railtourinfo.co.uk/tours.html

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t149gu$3uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:54 on Sat, 19 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 09:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>>>>>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>>>>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>>>>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>>>>>> occasions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>>>>>> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>>>>>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>>>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>>>>>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>>>>>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>>>>>> branded events, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>>>>> activities? I've not noticed any such usage.
>>>>
>>>> This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
>>>> Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different
>>>> tour operator.
>>>
>>> Yes,of course it was. Why would you think otherwise?
>>
>> Only the lack of transparency about who operates what.
>>
>> OK, so which other than A1Tours was using the Flying Scotsman trade name
>> to promote its tour to Kent?
>
> The recent FS tour to Kent was operated by Steam Dreams.
>
> "A1 Tours" doesn't produce any Google hits for steam trains; the A1 Steam
> Locomotive Trust built and operate Tornado, I don't expect that they'd run
> tours using any other loco?

Yes, The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust runs tours under the name Tornado
Railtours. As one would expect, they only run tours hauled by Tornado.

>
> FS is an A3.

I struggle to imagine why Roland assumed that The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust
would promote tours hauled by an A3.

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Note that some of them show cars in the single deck (full height)
>>> section. My understanding is that it's fairly unusual for the sngle deck
>>> section to be fully occupied by overheight vehicles, outside peak
>>> holiday travel times, so the additional space is usually filled with
>>> cars. That said, I've never ended up in that section when taking my car
>>> on the shuttle myself. I've always been in the double deck section (and,
>>> oddly enough, mostly on the top deck, although I'm sure that's pure
>>> coincidence). I've only been in the front section once, on a company
>>> coach trip to France in the 1990s. And yes, I do mean once, because we
>>> came back on the ferry. But that's a different story!
>>
>> I've always travelled as part of a group of very distinctive cars (clearly
>> travelling as a group) with low ground clearance, and we always get put
>> lower deck, and usually in the single deck section.
>
> The ramp to the top deck is pretty steep, so I would imagine there's a
> non-trivial risk of grounding at the transition for anything with
> non-standard clearance.

Yes, that's why we were always lower-deck.

> So I suppose that's a good reason for putting
> anything non-standard on the lower deck or in the single deck section,
> which would therefore increase the probability that a standard car will
> be on the top deck.
>
>

I think it increased my chances of being in the single deck cars too; there
are two sorting locations, when you go into the holding lanes they sort for
double or single deck half-train, and at the loading door they sort for top
or bottom deck. Putting people who definitely need lower deck, in the
single deck queue, avoids potentially running out of appropriate space
while boarding.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:52 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>
>>>>>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>>>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>>>> double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>>>> lower
>>>>>> decks.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>>>> further reaches?
>>>>
>>>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>>>> train
>>>> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
>>>> through the tunnel a dozen times.
>>>
>>> Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
>>> in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
>>> train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
>>> sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
>>> necessary to take a side door out of action.
>>>
>>
>> Eh? The train is in two halves, one double deck (cars only) and one single
>> deck (coaches, motorhomes, SUVs etc). At each end of each half is a
>> loading/unloading vehicle, there's no vehicle access between the two halves
>> and I doubt if there's pedestrian access either (other than staff).
>>
>>> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
>>> carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, significantly larger than usual UK or continental loading gauge.
>
> IIRC its the widest loading guage in the world for normal standard gauge
> trains but not the highest, though I wonder if it would be possible to get
> double stacked containers through or whether they'd foul the catenary?
>
>

Can anyone remember Joyce Whitchurch's website address? There was a loading
gauge diagram on there, I don't remember whether Le Shuttle featured or
not.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 13:58:07 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Note that some of them show cars in the single deck (full height)
>>>> section. My understanding is that it's fairly unusual for the sngle
>>>> deck section to be fully occupied by overheight vehicles, outside
>>>> peak holiday travel times, so the additional space is usually filled
>>>> with cars. That said, I've never ended up in that section when taking
>>>> my car on the shuttle myself. I've always been in the double deck
>>>> section (and,
>>>> oddly enough, mostly on the top deck, although I'm sure that's pure
>>>> coincidence). I've only been in the front section once, on a company
>>>> coach trip to France in the 1990s. And yes, I do mean once, because
>>>> we came back on the ferry. But that's a different story!
>>>
>>> I've always travelled as part of a group of very distinctive cars
>>> (clearly travelling as a group) with low ground clearance, and we
>>> always get put lower deck, and usually in the single deck section.
>>
>> The ramp to the top deck is pretty steep, so I would imagine there's a
>> non-trivial risk of grounding at the transition for anything with
>> non-standard clearance.
>
> Yes, that's why we were always lower-deck.
>
>> So I suppose that's a good reason for putting anything non-standard on
>> the lower deck or in the single deck section, which would therefore
>> increase the probability that a standard car will be on the top deck.
>>
>>
>>
> I think it increased my chances of being in the single deck cars too;
> there are two sorting locations, when you go into the holding lanes they
> sort for double or single deck half-train, and at the loading door they
> sort for top or bottom deck. Putting people who definitely need lower
> deck, in the single deck queue, avoids potentially running out of
> appropriate space while boarding.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

Interesting. The only time I've been in the full-height section was with
a little open 2-seater, though not a really low one.

nib

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 13:58:07 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:52 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>
>>>>>>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>>>>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>>>>> double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>>>>> lower
>>>>>>> decks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>>>>> further reaches?
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>>>>> train
>>>>> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
>>>>> through the tunnel a dozen times.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
>>>> in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
>>>> train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
>>>> sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
>>>> necessary to take a side door out of action.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Eh? The train is in two halves, one double deck (cars only) and one single
>>> deck (coaches, motorhomes, SUVs etc). At each end of each half is a
>>> loading/unloading vehicle, there's no vehicle access between the two halves
>>> and I doubt if there's pedestrian access either (other than staff).
>>>
>>>> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>>> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
>>>> carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, significantly larger than usual UK or continental loading gauge.
>>
>> IIRC its the widest loading guage in the world for normal standard gauge
>> trains but not the highest, though I wonder if it would be possible to get
>> double stacked containers through or whether they'd foul the catenary?
>>
>>
>
>Can anyone remember Joyce Whitchurch's website address? There was a loading
>gauge diagram on there, I don't remember whether Le Shuttle featured or
>not.

Archived at
http://web.archive.org/web/20140707182222/http://joycewhitchurch.zxq.net/gauges/text.htm

(but no, it doesn't include the shuttle)

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 12:48:15 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>The biggest problem for me, especially initially, was aiming for the
>correct side of the road when pulling out of t-junctions, in the absence of
>other traffic around to remind me!

I always have to remind myself which way to go around a roundabout.

>Similarly I twice set off on the wrong side of the road in quiet villages
>with no other vehicles around to offer the hint.

Done that a few times!

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 13:58:07 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 02:14:52 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>>>>>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>>>>>> double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>>>>>> lower
>>>>>>>> decks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>>>>>> further reaches?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>>>>>> train
>>>>>> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
>>>>>> through the tunnel a dozen times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
>>>>> in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
>>>>> train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
>>>>> sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
>>>>> necessary to take a side door out of action.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eh? The train is in two halves, one double deck (cars only) and one single
>>>> deck (coaches, motorhomes, SUVs etc). At each end of each half is a
>>>> loading/unloading vehicle, there's no vehicle access between the two halves
>>>> and I doubt if there's pedestrian access either (other than staff).
>>>>
>>>>> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>>>> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
>>>>> carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, significantly larger than usual UK or continental loading gauge.
>>>
>>> IIRC its the widest loading guage in the world for normal standard gauge
>>> trains but not the highest, though I wonder if it would be possible to get
>>> double stacked containers through or whether they'd foul the catenary?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Can anyone remember Joyce Whitchurch's website address? There was a loading
>> gauge diagram on there, I don't remember whether Le Shuttle featured or
>> not.
>
> Archived at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20140707182222/http://joycewhitchurch.zxq.net/gauges/text.htm
>
> (but no, it doesn't include the shuttle)
>
>

Thanks!!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:21:48 +0000
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 13:58:07 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> IIRC its the widest loading guage in the world for normal standard gauge
>>> trains but not the highest, though I wonder if it would be possible to get
>>> double stacked containers through or whether they'd foul the catenary?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Can anyone remember Joyce Whitchurch's website address? There was a loading
>>gauge diagram on there, I don't remember whether Le Shuttle featured or
>>not.
>
>Archived at
>http://web.archive.org/web/20140707182222/http://joycewhitchurch.zxq.net/gauges
>/text.htm
>
>(but no, it doesn't include the shuttle)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge#Channel_Tunnel

On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 07:23:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <j9kkheF7706U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:30 on Fri, 18
>Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>>>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>>>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>>
>>> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>>
>>Relevant to this group was the Swiss based multinational Brown Boveri &Cie
>>who used the initials BBC on company logos at times, much of their output
>>was for Railways and Railway electrification .
>
>At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
>precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.

IATR a Canadian outfit having bbc.com at one time.

In message <nvbc3h9gkpbicb58mo04f0fa2ct10b3vi0@4ax.com>, at 19:33:27 on
Sat, 19 Mar 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 07:23:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <j9kkheF7706U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:30 on Fri, 18
>>Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>>>>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>>>>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>>>
>>>> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>>>
>>>Relevant to this group was the Swiss based multinational Brown Boveri &Cie
>>>who used the initials BBC on company logos at times, much of their output
>>>was for Railways and Railway electrification .
>>
>>At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
>>precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.
>
>IATR a Canadian outfit having bbc.com at one time.

When we started UK Online, as a consumer oriented ISP (and a few
years later the UK government stole the brand for some of their own
publishing) the .com was owned by an American company called I think
United Kinetics, and when they had earlier decided to have a presence
on the Internet chose <United Kinetics>Online.

So close, and yet so far.

This all in the very early 90's.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
> precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.

I heard that story with respect to bbc.co.uk - it was originally the Swiss,
later handed over to the Beeb. Although BB&C and ASEA merged to become ABB
in 1988 - would BB&C have registered a domain before 1988?

(ABB buying BREL in 1989, of course)

Theo

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 09:55, NY wrote:
>>
>>> As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands
>>> which have been bought up by UK companies,
>>
>> Rolls Royce (not the cars) owns various German engine brands.
>
> Yes, I notice that users of UK trains with MTU engines now refer to them as
> Rolls-Royce engines.
>
>>
>> There are probably quite a lot of UK-based investment entities that
>> no-one outside the City has heard of which own foreign brands.
>>
>
> For some years, Burger King was UK-owned.
>
>

A surprising one was the weapons manufacturer Smith and Wesson who for a
while back in the 1980’s was owned by a British based company, more
recently the Segway personal transport device passed through British
ownership though the chap who bought it unfortunately drove one off of a
cliff
with fatal results.

Sticking with a Railway connection but on a small scale the present day
Hornby (which really derives from. Tri-ang) though it has been barely
profitable for some years did manage to acquire its
equivalents in France Jouef , Electrotren Spain, Rivarossi Italy , Lima
Italy , Arnold Germany.
Some had already been taken over by the others as they went bankrupt only
for the purchaser to also go under and Hornby then acquired them and
transferred production to China but retains the local brand names in the
respective markets.

GH

On 19/03/2022 22:27, Marland wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 09:55, NY wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands
>>>> which have been bought up by UK companies,
>>>
>>> Rolls Royce (not the cars) owns various German engine brands.
>>
>> Yes, I notice that users of UK trains with MTU engines now refer to them as
>> Rolls-Royce engines.
>>
>>>
>>> There are probably quite a lot of UK-based investment entities that
>>> no-one outside the City has heard of which own foreign brands.
>>>
>>
>> For some years, Burger King was UK-owned.
>>
>>
>
> A surprising one was the weapons manufacturer Smith and Wesson who for a
> while back in the 1980’s was owned by a British based company, more
> recently the Segway personal transport device passed through British
> ownership though the chap who bought it unfortunately drove one off of a
> cliff
> with fatal results.
>
> Sticking with a Railway connection but on a small scale the present day
> Hornby (which really derives from. Tri-ang) though it has been barely
> profitable for some years did manage to acquire its
> equivalents in France Jouef , Electrotren Spain, Rivarossi Italy , Lima
> Italy , Arnold Germany.
> Some had already been taken over by the others as they went bankrupt only
> for the purchaser to also go under and Hornby then acquired them and
> transferred production to China but retains the local brand names in the
> respective markets.
>

Hornby has it's design office in the UK still.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/03/2022 22:27, Marland wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2022 09:55, NY wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands
>>>>> which have been bought up by UK companies,
>>>>
>>>> Rolls Royce (not the cars) owns various German engine brands.
>>>
>>> Yes, I notice that users of UK trains with MTU engines now refer to them as
>>> Rolls-Royce engines.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are probably quite a lot of UK-based investment entities that
>>>> no-one outside the City has heard of which own foreign brands.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For some years, Burger King was UK-owned.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A surprising one was the weapons manufacturer Smith and Wesson who for a
>> while back in the 1980’s was owned by a British based company, more
>> recently the Segway personal transport device passed through British
>> ownership though the chap who bought it unfortunately drove one off of a
>> cliff
>> with fatal results.
>>
>> Sticking with a Railway connection but on a small scale the present day
>> Hornby (which really derives from. Tri-ang) though it has been barely
>> profitable for some years did manage to acquire its
>> equivalents in France Jouef , Electrotren Spain, Rivarossi Italy , Lima
>> Italy , Arnold Germany.
>> Some had already been taken over by the others as they went bankrupt only
>> for the purchaser to also go under and Hornby then acquired them and
>> transferred production to China but retains the local brand names in the
>> respective markets.
>>
>
> Hornby has it's design office in the UK still.
>

I've been following the TV series about the company, and it still appears
to have the old factory building, but stores 1:1 train models in it. The UK
staff seems tiny now.

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>>
>>
>> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>>
>>
>
> Relevant to this group was the Swiss based multinational Brown Boveri &Cie
> who used the initials BBC on company logos at times, …

Thus the relabelling of the BBC Micro in markets outside the UK.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>
>> I once went on an educational cruise with British India, on the MV Dunera.
>> My brother later went on the MV Uganda.
>>
>
> SS Uganda not MV, even though P&O had ownership of BI for some time she
> retained British India
> Funnel colours to the end apart from the period she served as a Hospital
> ship during the Falklands
> conflict. Her compliment of schoolchildren passengers having a surprise
> disembarkation at Naples
> to facilitate the conversion.

Thank you for the correction. As I say it was my brother who went on the
Uganda; I have very, very vague memories of an engine room tour on the
Dunera and it was impressed on us that she was not a steam ship.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <cwE*oqzJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:50:50 on Sat,
19 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>> At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
>> precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.
>
>I heard that story with respect to bbc.co.uk - it was originally the Swiss,
>later handed over to the Beeb.

A .co.uk would have different rules to a .com, indeed that's almost the
only rationale for having the different name-space.

>Although BB&C and ASEA merged to become ABB in 1988 - would BB&C have
>registered a domain before 1988?

In which name space?

>(ABB buying BREL in 1989, of course)

--
Roland Perry