<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...

>>>It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>on
>>>from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>lower
>>>decks.
>>
>>How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>further reaches?
>
> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
> train
> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
> through the tunnel a dozen times.

Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
necessary to take a side door out of action.

I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.

In message <t12eoh$80a$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:10:14 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:v$fepVAZTLNiFA8N@perry.uk...
>
>> Yes, I've been on numerous car ferries (but perhaps only one from
>>Dover) and they do try to pack the cars in like sardines. Their
>>scarce resource is cleanly square metres of footprint (not a limit on
>>pax numbers, or vehicle weights), and iirc they charge different
>>amounts depending on the length of vehicle.
>
>We've not been to the IoW since we got our new Honda CRV but its stated
>length (in the brochure) is the exact length of the decision-point
>between two different tariffs on the Lymington-Yarmouth ferry. When we
>next go (and we've been thinking of it for a few years but cruises and
>then Covid got in the way) it will be interesting to see what we are
>charged. Hopefully I can get the car to breathe in and look small, and
>they won't charge it at the higher tariff.

I would expect the ferry company to look up vehicles at the DVLA from
their number plate, and then correlate that with a list of vehicle
lengths.

That might produce some race conditions if you have a personal number
plate you've recently transferred. And the agencies that such searches
are sometimes outsourced to, cache the data and it can become stale. As
a windscreen replacement company discovered when turning up at my house
with completely the wrong bit of glass one day.

Their cost of doing business with the cheapest bidder I suppose.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t12eoh$80a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:15:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>>It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>>>will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>>>double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving
>>>>on
>>>>from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and
>>>>lower
>>>>decks.
>>>
>>>How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>>further reaches?
>>
>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>> train
>> or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
>> through the tunnel a dozen times.
>
>Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV carriages
>in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end, the rest of the
>train becomes one big section (on each level) rather than two smaller
>sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move between them if it becomes
>necessary to take a side door out of action.
>
>I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal,

Normal for where - HS1, the LGV Nord, or somewhere else?

>to take carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.

--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:15:23 +0000, NY wrote:

> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
> news:t12d71$lk7$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
>>>>It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most
>>>>it will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections
>>>>having the double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen
>>>>cars driving on from one end of the platform into one of the 2
>>>>entrances for upper and lower decks.
>>>
>>>How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>>>further reaches?
>>
>> Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every
>> train or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we
>> must've been through the tunnel a dozen times.
>
> Is there a reason why the trains are marshalled with the coach/HGV
> carriages in the middle rather than one end? If they were at one end,
> the rest of the train becomes one big section (on each level) rather
> than two smaller sections with no opportunity for vehicles to move
> between them if it becomes necessary to take a side door out of action.
>
> I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
> embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal, to take
> carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.

Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the double-
deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries have
their own vehicles on different trains.

The terminal platforms have two entrance ramps each, one at the rear of
the train (for the rear half) and one just before the middle (for the
front half), and two exit ramps, one just after the middle and one at the
front of the train.

Trains run around at both ends, so the front is always the front.

Yes, the tunnels are huge.

nib

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
> news:t11mps$158t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not
>> much
>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>> calais.
>
>> Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>> never understood.
>
> Maybe differences between efficiencies of British/French loading/unloading
> processes, and (post-Brexit) British/French passport control. I presume both
> countries don't check passports on departure side, only on arrivals side.
>

Passports are checked before boarding, then at the other end you drive off
and straight onto the motorway.

> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
> routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
> ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country to
> Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that the
> ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was actually
> well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out of the way
> than Sangatte.
>

I've used car ferries to Hoek, Santander and one of St Malo/Cherbourg
(can’t remember which) when it suited the final destination better than
Calais.

> The only car ferries I've used have been Lymington to Yarmouth (Isle of
> Wight) and northern Scotland (near Mey) to southern tip of Orkney
> "Mainland". IoW ferry operation was superb, and flexible enough to
> accommodate people who arrive in time for an earlier ferry than the one they
> have booked. Orkney ferry was a Tardis, accommodating a surprising number of
> vehicles all parked apparently haphazardly on the deck (though I saw a few
> people having to climb out of the boot because there was no space to open
> car doors!). The only delay on IoW was once when the rising car-deck got
> stuck in the up position, delaying those people by about half an hour beyond
> the normal delay for the lower deck to be emptied before the rising deck can
> be lowered.
>
> Those are both a *very* different scale to Eurotunnel or a "cross-flannel
> cherry" (to quote Radio 4 newsreader Charlotte Green, though Jenni Murray
> also claims that one). How many parallel streams of traffic can board
> different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>

Three, I think; the trains are two half-sets coupled, and AFAIK always one
double-deck and one single deck (same external height on the carriages, but
taller inside for coaches, vans, motorhomes etc).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 18/03/2022 14:13, Rolf Mantel wrote:

> On the ferries, Newcastle - Amsterdam, Hull - Rotterdam and
> Hull-Zeebugge have run overnight since the 1990's (now with P&O).

Hull - Zeebrugge closed last year.

> I'm missing Newcastle - Hamburg and Newcastle - Bergen though (booked
> once one-way each for a holidays) but as my UK time is over, I wouldn't
> use them anyways.

I did Bergen - Newcastle just before it closed. Sadly I never managed
Hamburg by sea.

--
Arthur Figgis

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:22:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <3q893hlcocqnj99v9j0nfiqpeesjcd4q8k@4ax.com>, at 10:25:45 on
>Fri, 18 Mar 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:07:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t124np$kf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:43 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>news:qHFfHzvyvINiFAPe@perry.uk...
>>>>>>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the
>>>>>>one that makes computers and printers.
>>>>>
>>>>> A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning
>>>>>off their laptop brand to Lenovo.
>>>>
>>>>I think IBM/Lenovo is the opposite case to two different Hewlett
>>>>Packards/HPs, in that they are playing *down* the former association
>>>>between IBM and Lenovo, rather than continuing to trade on a link even
>>>>though the companies are now separate.
>>>
>>>If you mean that Thinkpads are now always branded Lenovo rather than
>>>IBM, a quick search on a site like Amazon will disabuse you.
>>>
>>>>I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell since there was an overlap
>>>>of market
>>>
>>>HP have ferocious lawyers, and the fact Packard Bell traded at all is
>>>testament to the idea they could not be stopped (assuming HP even wanted
>>>to).
>>
> >Packard Bell was founded in 1933 by a Mr. Packard and a
> >Mr. Brll^H^H^H Bell.
>
>Not the Mr Bell who invented the telephone though, I suspect, as he died
>in 1922.
>
Herbert A Bell, born in Iowa.
https://www.nytimes.com/1970/01/31/archives/herbert-a-bell-radio-maker-dies-introduced-inexpensive-set-and.html
<snip>

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 19:47:33 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:22:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <3q893hlcocqnj99v9j0nfiqpeesjcd4q8k@4ax.com>, at 10:25:45 on
>>Fri, 18 Mar 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:07:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t124np$kf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:43 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>>>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>news:qHFfHzvyvINiFAPe@perry.uk...
>>>>>>>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the
>>>>>>>one that makes computers and printers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning
>>>>>>off their laptop brand to Lenovo.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think IBM/Lenovo is the opposite case to two different Hewlett
>>>>>Packards/HPs, in that they are playing *down* the former association
>>>>>between IBM and Lenovo, rather than continuing to trade on a link even
>>>>>though the companies are now separate.
>>>>
>>>>If you mean that Thinkpads are now always branded Lenovo rather than
>>>>IBM, a quick search on a site like Amazon will disabuse you.
>>>>
>>>>>I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell since there was an overlap
>>>>>of market
>>>>
>>>>HP have ferocious lawyers, and the fact Packard Bell traded at all is
>>>>testament to the idea they could not be stopped (assuming HP even wanted
>>>>to).
>>>
>> >Packard Bell was founded in 1933 by a Mr. Packard and a
>> >Mr. Brll^H^H^H Bell.
>>
>>Not the Mr Bell who invented the telephone though, I suspect, as he died
>>in 1922.
>>
>Herbert A Bell, born in Iowa.
>https://www.nytimes.com/1970/01/31/archives/herbert-a-bell-radio-maker-dies-introduced-inexpensive-set-and.html
><snip>
>
Bell was not his original surname (thus ruling out almost any
relationship to A G Bell), his parents being Anthony Zwiebel and Anna
Mary Brehm of ultimately Alsatian and German ancestry.

On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Townsend Thoreson?
>
> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.

It was P&O by then. A couple of my colleaguss were on that, fortunately
they both survived.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/03/2022 10:54, NY wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
> news:t11mps$158t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather
>> they
>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not
>> much
>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16
>> out of
>> calais.
>
>> Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>> never understood.
>
> Maybe differences between efficiencies of British/French
> loading/unloading processes, and (post-Brexit) British/French passport
> control. I presume both countries don't check passports on departure
> side, only on arrivals side.

Other way round IME

>
> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
> routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
> ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country
> to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that
> the ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was
> actually well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out
> of the way than Sangatte.

You wouldn't get very far driving to Ashford.

>
> The only car ferries I've used have been Lymington to Yarmouth (Isle of
> Wight) and northern Scotland (near Mey) to southern tip of Orkney
> "Mainland". IoW ferry operation was superb, and flexible enough to
> accommodate people who arrive in time for an earlier ferry than the one
> they have booked. Orkney ferry was a Tardis, accommodating a surprising
> number of vehicles all parked apparently haphazardly on the deck (though
> I saw a few people having to climb out of the boot because there was no
> space to open car doors!). The only delay on IoW was once when the
> rising car-deck got stuck in the up position, delaying those people by
> about half an hour beyond the normal delay for the lower deck to be
> emptied before the rising deck can be lowered.
>
> Those are both a *very* different scale to Eurotunnel or a
> "cross-flannel cherry" (to quote Radio 4 newsreader Charlotte Green,
> though Jenni Murray also claims that one). How many parallel streams of
> traffic can board different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?

2, top and bottom

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/03/2022 16:07, ColinR wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 09:04, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 08:57, Marland wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the
>>>>> brand
>>>>> from DP World.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is
>>>>> too
>>>>> damaged.
>>>>
>>>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>>>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>>>> 19th century.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
>>> from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new
>>> shaped Sun
>>> logo.
>>> IMHO they don’t look quite right now.
>>>
>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs
>>> distancing from
>>> would be Princess
>>> which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
>>> the two brands
>>> have taken place on several occasions.
>>
>> Originally the company was P&O Princess when sold to Carnival.
>>
>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>>> Britishness of its ships for British  customers being one of their
>>> selling
>>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>
>>
>> Union Castle anyone? Or, God forbid, White Star?
>>
>> Bit of trivia, I applied for a cadetship as a deck officer with (the
>> real) P&O back in the dim and distant. Failed the medical, ironically,
>> considering my subsequent career, because of my eyesight.
>>
>>
>
> Mention has been made of P&O splitting but each part still using the
> brand. White Star was similar in that all their ship names ended in "ic"
> such as Titanic, Olympic and Britannic. When White Star collapsed the
> passenger ship section was bought by Cunard which, for a few years only,
> branded themselves "Cunard White Star" and the cargo ship part of White
> Star was taken over by Shaw Savill and from then on most of their ships
> used the "ic" ending such as Gothic, Alaric, Majestic etc.
>
> As to trivia - I was interviewed by British India (never bothered with
> P&O) but chose Shaw Savill eventually.
>

As a small boy I used to watch the P&O boats coming in and out of
harbour from the school playground, hence my interest in that company.
Also the only long sea voyage I've done was on the P&O Canton.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/03/2022 16:26, ColinR wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 10:15, NY wrote:
>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS,
>>> Stena, Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to
>>> cream off the P&O trade.
>>
>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe
>> cities and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business
>> over the next few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would
>> be a lot more honest) get their act together, and some of that
>> business may well continue even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>>
>> I've not heard anything yet about a "rescue plan" to get people
>> stranded overseas back to the UK, if rival firms can't cope with the
>> extra demand or don't serve a given port. I foresee lots of claims for
>> compensation where people with valid P&O tickets claim for
>> out-of-pocket expenses for hotel accommodation and people having to
>> buy tickets on rival ferries to get home.
>>
>> The whole thing was handled spectacularly badly by P&O Ferries' senior
>> management (even down to the briefing by video, with no opportunity
>> for Q&As *) and with staggering contempt for both the customers and
>> employees. People have long memories: the damage that P&O Ferries will
>> have done to their brand name (and, unfortunately, to P&O Cruises, an
>> "innocent bystander") will take a long time to repair. Could we see
>> P&O Cruises suing P&O Ferries for damage to the shared brand?  I do
>> hope so ;-)
>>
>
> It seems that memories are short. In 1988 P&O at Dover sacked all their
> NUS (as the seaman's union then was) staff and replaced them with
> non-unionised staff (albeit still British). It took something like three
> months to get all their Dover ferries back into operation with some of
> the most virulent demonstrations at the gates to the docks with "scab"
> seamen being taken in by coach plastered with rubbish thrown at them. I
> know, I joined the Pride of Hythe (the last re-activated ship) in that
> September and had to experience the gauntlet of the NUS demos getting to
> work each day. Did not seem to harm P&O's reputation then so why now??
> https://dover-strike-1988-89.tripod.com/Diary%20Of%20Events.htm
> https://www.reportdigital.co.uk/archive-photos/1980s/p-o-seafarers-strike-1988-1989.html
>
>

IIRC the board meeting that decided that one was held on a P&O cruise
ship in Southampton Docks. I was stood on the quayside for hours waiting
to do interviews with various people on both sides.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/03/2022 17:56, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 14:24:43 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Rolls Royce (cars / aero engines), P&O (ferries/cruises) and HP/Hewlett
>> Packard are ripe for confusion, especially the last two since there is an
>> overlap in the target markets. I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell
>> since there was an overlap of market - not like Harrods which don't want the
>> name "Harrod(s)" used for anything else, even when a small business is owned
>> by a Mr Harrod who had a rightful use of the name - there was a legal case a
>> few years ago.
>
> Given that the original Packard Bell predated Hewlett Packard by a few
> years (and both started up in the 1930s when name overlap wasn't as big
> an issue as it is now), by the time it may have potentially become an
> issue for Hewlett Packard it was far too late to do anything about it.
>
>> It reminds me of my favourite TV programme from the past, "Boon", where the
>> security company was called CBS (Crawford Boon Security) which had no
>> connection with its more widely-known meaning of Columbia Broadcasting
>> System.
>
> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>

The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:DJR1EOHiJMNiFAKA@perry.uk...
>>I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal,
>
> Normal for where - HS1, the LGV Nord, or somewhere else?
>
>>to take carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.

Fair question. Is HS1 in the UK and the Eurostar routes in mainland Europe
wide/high enough to take the Eurotunnel shuttle carriages or can these only
run for a short distance either side of the tunnel as far as the road
termini? I imagine that HS1 (and HS2 when it's built) have a more generous
loading gauge than the normal one for domestic UK lines, but is it *that*
wide?

How much larger was the loading gauge for the Great Central Line than the
standard on other lines? I know the GCR's gauge is often wrongly described
as being Berne Gauge. Hard to imagine that the track spacing and the bridge
clearances for the section that I know between Aylesbury and Marylebone are
larger than anywhere else.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:00:12 +0000, NY wrote:

> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:DJR1EOHiJMNiFAKA@perry.uk...
>>>I presume the loading gauge of the tunnel and as far as the
>>>embarkation/disembarkation terminals is larger than normal,
>>
>> Normal for where - HS1, the LGV Nord, or somewhere else?
>>
>>>to take carriages which are big enough to fit coaches and 40-ton artcs.
>
> Fair question. Is HS1 in the UK and the Eurostar routes in mainland
> Europe wide/high enough to take the Eurotunnel shuttle carriages or can
> these only run for a short distance either side of the tunnel as far as
> the road termini? I imagine that HS1 (and HS2 when it's built) have a
> more generous loading gauge than the normal one for domestic UK lines,
> but is it *that* wide?
>
> How much larger was the loading gauge for the Great Central Line than
> the standard on other lines? I know the GCR's gauge is often wrongly
> described as being Berne Gauge. Hard to imagine that the track spacing
> and the bridge clearances for the section that I know between Aylesbury
> and Marylebone are larger than anywhere else.

The tunnel shuttles seem to be at least a metre taller than even the
European loading gauge. They don't go anywhere outside the tunnel system.

nib

"nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the double-
> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries have
> their own vehicles on different trains.

I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than using
the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very long side
doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to enter.

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>
>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>
> It was P&O by then.

Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O with
Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the outside after
changing owner to P&O. Ah,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the owner
was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly the photo
of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in big letters.

> A couple of my colleagues were on that, fortunately they both survived.

Christ. They had a lucky escape. We should indeed never forget Zeebrugge.

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t12q36$8ou$2@dont-email.me...
>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
>> routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
>> ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country to
>> Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that the
>> ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was actually
>> well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out of the way
>> than Sangatte.
>
> You wouldn't get very far driving to Ashford.

OK, wherever the UK Eurotunnel terminal is. You can tell I've never been
there ;-)

>> How many parallel streams of traffic can board different parts of a
>> Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>
> 2, top and bottom

Ah, only two. I wasn't sure whether each level had multiple boarding streams
in parallel, one per carriage or per group of a few carriages. So on each
level, vehicles only board from one end and potentially may have to drive
the full length of the train (*) inside it before they park.

(*) Excluding the full-height coach section of the train.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:

> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>> double-
>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>
> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to
> enter.

Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
carriages.

Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a separate
coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency, they can
leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers out of each
end.

nib

"nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t12taf$7mm$5@dont-email.me...
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>>> double-
>>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>>
>> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to
>> enter.
>
> Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
> carriages.
>
> Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a separate
> coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency, they can
> leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers out of each
> end.

Ah, I wondered whether car/coach passengers also had to leave their vehicles
and go to a central "passenger lounge" area, as they have to on car ferries
nowadays.

One day I'm determined to go on either Eurostar or Le Shuttle and see what
everyone is talking about. The problem with going by car is the driving on
the other side. Driving an LHD car on the right would be mildly
disconcerting but I did in the US when I was 20 years younger and I'd
probably be OK as most things are a mirror image. Driving an RHD car on the
right would be terrifying because I would be on the wrong side of the car
and would be entirely reliant on my wife for "am I clear to overtake" as she
would be better placed to see oncoming cars and could angle her door mirror
to see cars coming from behind on a motorway, which requires less effort of
refocussing than for me having to look right across to a correctly-angled
passenger door mirror on the opposite side of the car, and then readjust to
looking straight ahead again afterwards. I can scan both the road ahead and
a driver's side door mirror with ease because your eyes don't have to move
as far. I'd only really contemplate driving on the right in an LHD car that
was correctly designed for driving on that side; maybe when I was younger
I'd have relished driving RHD on the right as a challenge.

On 18/03/2022 21:15, NY wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>>
>>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>>
>> It was P&O by then.
>
> Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O
> with Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the
> outside after changing owner to P&O. Ah,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the
> owner was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly
> the photo of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in
> big letters.
>
>> A couple of my colleagues were on that, fortunately they both survived.
>
> Christ. They had a lucky escape. We should indeed never forget Zeebrugge.

It takes time to rebrand something the size of a ship - normally done at
the next annual dry-dock/survey period. P&O had taken over a few months
before the Herald disaster, but rebranding had not been completed (most
passenger ferry dockings are done in the winter months when traffic is
lower).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Ferries
"At the time of the sinking, the operating company, P&O European Ferries
(Dover) Ltd were rebranding the Townsend Thoresen ferries. This was
expedited rapidly due to the negative publicity that the disaster had
caused to the Townsend Thoresen brand."

--
Colin

"ColinR" <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t12uio$ce3$1@dont-email.me...
> It takes time to rebrand something the size of a ship - normally done at
> the next annual dry-dock/survey period. P&O had taken over a few months
> before the Herald disaster, but rebranding had not been completed (most
> passenger ferry dockings are done in the winter months when traffic is
> lower).
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Ferries
> "At the time of the sinking, the operating company, P&O European Ferries
> (Dover) Ltd were rebranding the Townsend Thoresen ferries. This was
> expedited rapidly due to the negative publicity that the disaster had
> caused to the Townsend Thoresen brand."

Ah, so the Wikipedia article *is* wrong to describe the owner *at the time
of the accident* as TT, just because that was the name that was still
painted on the side. Fair enough.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>>
>>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>>
>> It was P&O by then.
>
> Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O with
> Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the outside after
> changing owner to P&O. Ah,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the owner
> was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly the photo
> of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in big letters.
>

The official report is as easy to find online as a Wikipedia article.

This excerpt covers the situation .
3 The Parties.
3.1 At the time of the casualty the HERALD was owned by Townsend Car
Ferries Limited (hereinafter “the Company”), which was a subsidiary of the
Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company (hereinafter “P. & 0.”)N.
otice of the Investigation dated 13March 1987 was served upon the Company.
Mr. Anthony Clarke Q.C., Mr. Nigel Teare and Mr. Jeremy Russell were
instructed by Messrs. Norton, Rose, Botterell and Roche to appear on behalf
of the Company.

The full report
<https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/54c1704ce5274a15b6000025/FormalInvestigation_HeraldofFreeEnterprise-MSA1894.pdf>

shows a history of bad practise with Masters frequently drawing attention
to frequent miscounting of passengers which meant the ship sailed with
numbers above its certificate, the consequence of which could be a career
changing prosecution with fines in the tens of thousands as they could be
held responsible.
In much the same way P&O European Ferries had to carry the can for the
disaster as they had acquired Townsends only a short time before and had
barely any time to find out and deal with such issues.

GH

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 17:56:11 +0000, Mark Goodge
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.

It always amused me that back in the early days of the internet
bbc.com took you to Boston Business Computing

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>
>
> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>
>

Relevant to this group was the Swiss based multinational Brown Boveri &Cie
who used the initials BBC on company logos at times, much of their output
was for Railways and Railway electrification . The GWR ordered Gas Turbine
locomotive 18000 that got nicknamed Kerosene Castle was constructed by
them .

This clip shows it leaving the factory on a test run and proceeding along
tracks very different from the Western Region.
< https://youtu.be/8PLE1mfETjg>

GH