"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>
> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?

One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:52:22 +0000, NY wrote:
> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
> rightly getting.

One company will own the brand, and license it to the other (or a third
company owns the brand and licenses it to both). It's not uncommon when
companies are split up. For example Rolls Royce cars and Rolls Royce
aircraft engines are made by unconnected companies. And there are two
companies called Hewlett Packard which have nothing else in common.

Mike

"Mike Humphrey" <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote in message
news:t10bev$cv9$1@dont-email.me...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:52:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
>> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
>> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
>> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
>> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
>> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
>> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
>> rightly getting.
>
> One company will own the brand, and license it to the other (or a third
> company owns the brand and licenses it to both). It's not uncommon when
> companies are split up. For example Rolls Royce cars and Rolls Royce
> aircraft engines are made by unconnected companies. And there are two
> companies called Hewlett Packard which have nothing else in common.

And the DEC company which used to make the VAX mainframes does not also make
VAX vacuum cleaners.

I wonder whether it is wise for both ex-P&O companies to continue to use the
name, now that they are separate and now that the reputation of one will
probably harm the other.

I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the one
that makes computers and printers. I always thought that Packard Bell as
computer brand was taking the piss since people might assume that PB
computers are the same quality as HP.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 22:16:29 +0000, NY wrote:
> I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the one
> that makes computers and printers. I always thought that Packard Bell as
> computer brand was taking the piss since people might assume that PB
> computers are the same quality as HP.

Yes, HP makes the printers and PCs, while Hewlett Packard Enterprise
makes stuff for businesses like networking gear (now branded Aruba since
they took over Aruba Wireless). Technically neither company is "Hewlett
Packard" as one is "HP" and the other is "Hewlett Packard Enterprise",
but they're clearly the same brand.

Mike

On 17/03/2022 21:52, NY wrote:

> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
> rightly getting.

Presumably the aeroplane engine and fancy car companies spend a lot of
time telling people "that's Rolls-Royce, not Rolls-Royce".

--
Arthur Figgis

On 17/03/2022 22:22, Mike Humphrey wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 22:16:29 +0000, NY wrote:
>> I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the one
>> that makes computers and printers. I always thought that Packard Bell as
>> computer brand was taking the piss since people might assume that PB
>> computers are the same quality as HP.
>
> Yes, HP makes the printers and PCs, while Hewlett Packard Enterprise
> makes stuff for businesses like networking gear (now branded Aruba since
> they took over Aruba Wireless). Technically neither company is "Hewlett
> Packard" as one is "HP" and the other is "Hewlett Packard Enterprise",
> but they're clearly the same brand.

It's less than 8 years since Hewlett Packard Enterprise was spun out from
HP. It's hardly surprising that most people don't know about it when it
mainly sells to business.

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/03/2022 21:52, NY wrote:
>
>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
>> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
>> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
>> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
>> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
>> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
>> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
>> rightly getting.
>
> Presumably the aeroplane engine and fancy car companies spend a lot of
> time telling people "that's Rolls-Royce, not Rolls-Royce".
>

In that case, the cars license the brand from Rolls-Royce Holdings plc. It
was the latter that prevented VW from being the long-term builder of
Rolls-Royce cars when it bought the Crewe factory. Instead, the licence was
granted to BMW, which had to start again, with all-new designs, assembled
in an all-new factory on the Goodwood estate.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>
>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>
> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>
>

The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
from DP World.

I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
damaged.

On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>
>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>
>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>
>>
>
> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
> from DP World.
>
> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
> damaged.

They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
19th century. More likely that P&O Ferries will be rebranded I suspect.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>
>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>
>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>> from DP World.
>>
>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>> damaged.
>
> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
> 19th century. More likely that P&O Ferries will be rebranded I suspect.
>

I suppose it's possible DPW might sell the P&O brand to Carnival, and
re-brand the ferries.

On 18/03/2022 08:16, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>
>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>
>>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>>>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>>>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>>>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>>>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>>>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>>>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>> from DP World.
>>>
>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>> damaged.
>>
>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>> 19th century. More likely that P&O Ferries will be rebranded I suspect.
>>
>
> I suppose it's possible DPW might sell the P&O brand to Carnival, and
> re-brand the ferries.
>

That's assuming they "own" the brand. It could be the other way round as
the ferries division was sold off. P&O Cruises can claim to be the core
activity.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/03/2022 08:16, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>
>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>
>>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>>>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>>>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>>>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>>>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>>>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>>>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>> from DP World.
>>>
>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>> damaged.
>>
>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>> 19th century. More likely that P&O Ferries will be rebranded I suspect.
>>
>
> I suppose it's possible DPW might sell the P&O brand to Carnival, and
> re-brand the ferries.
>

They may have to, even their friends on the guvmint benches are not
happy with the way they've gone about this.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>>
>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>> from DP World.
>>
>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>> damaged.
>
> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
> 19th century.
>

Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new shaped Sun
logo.
IMHO they don’t look quite right now.

Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing from
would be Princess
which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
the two brands
have taken place on several occasions.
OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
points that could be difficult to replace.
Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.

GH

On 18/03/2022 08:57, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>> from DP World.
>>>
>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>> damaged.
>>
>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>> 19th century.
>>
>
> Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
> from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new shaped Sun
> logo.
> IMHO they don’t look quite right now.
>
> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing from
> would be Princess
> which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
> the two brands
> have taken place on several occasions.

Originally the company was P&O Princess when sold to Carnival.

> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
> points that could be difficult to replace.
> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>

Union Castle anyone? Or, God forbid, White Star?

Bit of trivia, I applied for a cadetship as a deck officer with (the
real) P&O back in the dim and distant. Failed the medical, ironically,
considering my subsequent career, because of my eyesight.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-03-17 22:07:27 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:

> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:52:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
>> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
>> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
>> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
>> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
>> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
>> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
>> rightly getting.
>
> One company will own the brand, and license it to the other (or a third
> company owns the brand and licenses it to both). It's not uncommon when
> companies are split up. For example Rolls Royce cars and Rolls Royce
> aircraft engines are made by unconnected companies. And there are two
> companies called Hewlett Packard which have nothing else in common.

If anyone recalls the situation when BMW aquired RR (cars), VW came in
at a late stage with a much bigger offer and bought the business, only
for RR (aero engines) to refuse to give the licence to the RR brand to
VW, so VW got Bently and a bunch of run down and worn out factories,
while BMW got to make RR cars (in a factory they had to build newly).

Robin

On 18/03/2022 09:57, Marland wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>> from DP World.
>>>
>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>> damaged.
>>
>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>> 19th century.
>>
>
>Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
>from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new shaped Sun
>logo.
>IMHO they don’t look quite right now.
>
>Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing from
>would be Princess
>which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
>the two brands
>have taken place on several occasions.
>OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
>points that could be difficult to replace.
>Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>

Carnival has probably also inherited the White Star brand that it could
resurrect.

But it probably makes more sense to rebrand the ferries. Unlike cruise
ships, I suspect there's little brand loyalty to ferry lines, and they
could either dig up a disused old British line's brand, or just invent
another new one. Or they could be honest and just call them DP Ferries.

On 18/03/2022 09:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
>On 18/03/2022 08:16, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>>>
>>>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>>>>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>>>>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>>>>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>>>>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>>>>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>>>>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>>> from DP World.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>>> damaged.
>>>
>>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>>> 19th century. More likely that P&O Ferries will be rebranded I suspect.
>>>
>>
>> I suppose it's possible DPW might sell the P&O brand to Carnival, and
>> re-brand the ferries.
>>
>
>That's assuming they "own" the brand. It could be the other way round as
>the ferries division was sold off. P&O Cruises can claim to be the core
>activity.

It was the cruise line that was separated from the main P&O business. It
later merged with Carnival. So it's most likely that DPW retains ownership
of the brand.

On 18/03/2022 09:33, Recliner wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 09:57, Marland wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>>> from DP World.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>>> damaged.
>>>
>>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>>> 19th century.
>>
>> Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
>> from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new shaped
>> Sun
>> logo.
>> IMHO they don’t look quite right now.
>>
>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>> from
>> would be Princess
>> which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
>> the two brands
>> have taken place on several occasions.
>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with
>> the Britishness of its ships for British  customers being one of their
>> selling
>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>
>
> Carnival has probably also inherited the White Star brand that it could
> resurrect.
>
> But it probably makes more sense to rebrand the ferries. Unlike cruise
> ships, I suspect there's little brand loyalty to ferry lines, and they
> could either dig up a disused old British line's brand, or just invent
> another new one. Or they could be honest and just call them DP Ferries.
>
>

Townsend Thoreson? IIRC P&O Ferries own the brand.

What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off
the P&O trade.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t11d2q$2h2$1@dont-email.me...
>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>> from DP World.
>>
>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>> damaged.
>
> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first company
> to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the 19th century.
> More likely that P&O Ferries will be rebranded I suspect.

If there was any justice in the world, i would be P&O Ferries which was
forced to rebrand (suffering financial costs for doing so and loss of
reputation of original Peninsular and Oriental brand). After all,
yesterday's debacle will already have damaged them (maybe even a crippling
below-the-waterline torpedo hole!) so their reputation cannot be harmed much
more by a total rebrand.

As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands which
have been bought up by UK companies, or has it all been the other way: UK
brands that have been bought up by foreign owners? I wonder what the next
few decades will bring: will there be *any* "British" brands left that are
still owned and controlled by British companies, with mainly British
employees? I saw it with the company where I worked for many years: a
British company which became largely owned by Japan (who seemed to leave the
management to the UK), then by Finland and then by Germany (the latter two
cases, foreign managers were parachuted into roles at all levels). The
British/Finnish cultural differences were frustrating and often laughable
(*).

Whenever I've been on a P&O cruise, it is interesting to see that the
catering staff (cooks, servers, waiters) are almost exclusively Indian, and
the maintenance and cabin steward staff are mainly Malaysian/Philippine.
Only the senior officers are (judging by their names) British or Western
European.

(*) Video conferences were painful. You'd ask your Finnish colleague a
question and there would be a very long delay before there was any response.
Initially we thought it was a technical delay, until we met them
face-to-face and saw the same thing. It's a cultural difference: if I am
asked a difficult question I will usually give a very quick response (either
verbal or just facial) which communicates "I've heard you and I've
understood you, but I need to think about the answer". The Finns tend not to
give this: you get no sign whatsoever that they have heard/understood you,
until maybe 30 seconds later when you get the fully thought-out answer.
Disconcerting, and liable to provoke us to restate the question in simpler
English, until we learned about it. The other utterly bizarre thing was the
motivational "kick-off" event held, of all places, at the local ice rink.
The Finnish senior managers (unlike the younger, more junior Finns) were
very dour and serious. But we had the bewildering sight of a dour Finn
trying (and failing dismally) to put on a dynamic act, motivating us to "go
kill the customers" (something lost in translation - maybe it should have
been "win customers" or "kill (metaphorically) the competition"?). At one
stage he exhorted us to "repeat after me" a weird guttural phrase. No-one
had a clue what we were being asked to chant, but we all faithfully repeated
the sounds that we heard without having the foggiest what we were saying! It
turned out to be "Go Do" or some such bollocks. As an exercise it was
cringe-making, a total flop and did a lot of harm (instead of help) to
Brit/Finn relations.

On 18/03/2022 10:24, Bob wrote:
>On 2022-03-17 22:07:27 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:
>
>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:52:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
>>> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
>>> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
>>> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
>>> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
>>> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
>>> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
>>> rightly getting.
>>
>> One company will own the brand, and license it to the other (or a third
>> company owns the brand and licenses it to both). It's not uncommon when
>> companies are split up. For example Rolls Royce cars and Rolls Royce
>> aircraft engines are made by unconnected companies. And there are two
>> companies called Hewlett Packard which have nothing else in common.
>
>If anyone recalls the situation when BMW aquired RR (cars), VW came in
>at a late stage with a much bigger offer and bought the business, only
>for RR (aero engines) to refuse to give the licence to the RR brand to
>VW, so VW got Bently and a bunch of run down and worn out factories,
>while BMW got to make RR cars (in a factory they had to build newly).
>

BMW had to develop an entirely new car using its own tech, and build an
entirely new assembly plant in Goodwood (the actual manufacturing is in
Munich). Until those were ready, the old Crewe factory continued to build
the old RR models for BMW. RR and Bentley cars were previously almost
identical, and shared a dealer network, so I'm not sure if the dealers had
to ultimately choose between them.

On 18/03/2022 10:42, Scott wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 06:42:49 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>
>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>
>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>from DP World.
>>
>>I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>damaged.
>
>As happened with Townsend Thoresen.

Yes, that's what I was thinking of.

On 18/03/2022 10:45, Scott wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 06:42:49 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:vho63htdqmukrjqifq8nm073v5mft6fr9r@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
>>>>
>>>> How can P&O dismiss 800 staff and replace them with overseas workers?
>>>> I thought any dismissal was either (a) due to misconduct, (b) unfair
>>>> or (c) redundancy. I thought redundancy only applied where the job no
>>>> longer existed. If P&O appoint replacement staff, does this not imply
>>>> that the job role continues to exist thereby making all the dismissals
>>>> unfair? Will P&O not be tied up in litigation for years to come?
>>>
>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and P&O
>>> Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the brand P&O
>>> and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally separate
>>> companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is scope for
>>> confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If I was in
>>> charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's reputation
>>> might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was rightly getting.
>>>
>>The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>from DP World.
>>
>>I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>damaged.
>
>I am wondering if the UK operation is a separate company that could be
>put into administration if DP World don't get their way. That would
>certainly weaken the position of the employees.

That seems very likely.

On 18/03/2022 09:55, NY wrote:
> As a matter of interest, have there been many cases of foreign brands
> which have been bought up by UK companies,

Stagecoach bought Greyhound, though I think they have subsequently sold
it on.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...

> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
> P&O trade.

Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
even after P&O Ferries are back in service.

I've not heard anything yet about a "rescue plan" to get people stranded
overseas back to the UK, if rival firms can't cope with the extra demand or
don't serve a given port. I foresee lots of claims for compensation where
people with valid P&O tickets claim for out-of-pocket expenses for hotel
accommodation and people having to buy tickets on rival ferries to get home.

The whole thing was handled spectacularly badly by P&O Ferries' senior
management (even down to the briefing by video, with no opportunity for Q&As
*) and with staggering contempt for both the customers and employees. People
have long memories: the damage that P&O Ferries will have done to their
brand name (and, unfortunately, to P&O Cruises, an "innocent bystander")
will take a long time to repair. Could we see P&O Cruises suing P&O Ferries
for damage to the shared brand? I do hope so ;-)

(*) Even worse than the redundancy notification that I heard of about 20
years ago where the CEO sounded the fire alarm, got everyone out into the
car park, read out some names and then said "the rest of you are redundant
and should go home and never come back" (I'm paraphrasing). Chaos ensued
because people had dropped everything (as you do for a fire alarm) and had
left their coats behind that contained their car keys, and sorting that out
took a long time. I heard of it because the manager was being prosecuted for
misuse of the fire alarm and for the unnecessary summoning of a fleet of
fire engines and ambulances (no-one had even thought to warn the emergency
services "This is a test").

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>> P&O trade.
>
>Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>even after P&O Ferries are back in service.

Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
never understood.