In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>Townsend Thoreson?

Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.

>IIRC P&O Ferries own the brand.

--
Roland Perry

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
news:t11mps$158t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not
> much
> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
> calais.

> Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
> never understood.

Maybe differences between efficiencies of British/French loading/unloading
processes, and (post-Brexit) British/French passport control. I presume both
countries don't check passports on departure side, only on arrivals side.

Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country to
Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that the
ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was actually
well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out of the way
than Sangatte.

The only car ferries I've used have been Lymington to Yarmouth (Isle of
Wight) and northern Scotland (near Mey) to southern tip of Orkney
"Mainland". IoW ferry operation was superb, and flexible enough to
accommodate people who arrive in time for an earlier ferry than the one they
have booked. Orkney ferry was a Tardis, accommodating a surprising number of
vehicles all parked apparently haphazardly on the deck (though I saw a few
people having to climb out of the boot because there was no space to open
car doors!). The only delay on IoW was once when the rising car-deck got
stuck in the up position, delaying those people by about half an hour beyond
the normal delay for the lower deck to be emptied before the rising deck can
be lowered.

Those are both a *very* different scale to Eurotunnel or a "cross-flannel
cherry" (to quote Radio 4 newsreader Charlotte Green, though Jenni Murray
also claims that one). How many parallel streams of traffic can board
different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>> from DP World.
>>>
>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>> damaged.
>>
>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>> 19th century.
>>
>
> Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
> from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new shaped Sun
> logo.
> IMHO they don’t look quite right now.
>
> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing from
> would be Princess
> which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
> the two brands
> have taken place on several occasions.
> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
> Britishness of its ships for British customers being one of their selling
> points that could be difficult to replace.
> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.

I once went on an educational cruise with British India, on the MV Dunera.
My brother later went on the MV Uganda.

In around about 1960 my grandparents crossed the Atlantic with Canadian
Pacific on one of the White Empress liners, though I don’t remember which
one - possibly Empress Of Britain. They brought propelling pencils back
for the grandchildren which had tiny models of the ship sliding back and
forth in a clear section of the pencil barrel.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Am 18.03.2022 um 11:54 schrieb NY:
> I wonder if there are any routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK
> ferry port and have a long ferry journey, compared with driving from the
> other end of the country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to
> the European port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that this
> European port was actually well placed for the onward car journey and
> was not *more* out of the way than Sangatte.

As a York student, I significantly preferred North Sea Ferries from Hull
compared to Channel crossings. For car/ motorbike to South-West
Germany, Rotterdam was well suited, for train via Brussels, Zeebrugge
was fine.

In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:

>Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
>routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a
>long ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the
>country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European
>port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European
>port was actually well placed for the onward car journey and was not
>*more* out of the way than Sangatte.

If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a
ferry from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent,
Eurotunnel, then another almost 400km by road.

Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.

Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more extreme
example of the same thing.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t10c0a$k2l$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:16:29 on Thu, 17 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Mike Humphrey" <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote in message
>news:t10bev$cv9$1@dont-email.me...
>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:52:22 +0000, NY wrote:
>>> One other question. How is it that P&O Ferries (owned by DP World) and
>>> P&O Cruises (owned by Carnival) were both able to carry on using the
>>> brand P&O and the four-coloured flag logo after they became totally
>>> separate companies? What are the rules about "passing off" when there is
>>> scope for confusion - eg when they are both in the shipping industry. If
>>> I was in charge of P&O Cruises, I'd be very concerned that my company's
>>> reputation might be severely damaged by the flak that P&O Ferries was
>>> rightly getting.
>>
>> One company will own the brand, and license it to the other (or a third
>> company owns the brand and licenses it to both). It's not uncommon when
>> companies are split up. For example Rolls Royce cars and Rolls Royce
>> aircraft engines are made by unconnected companies. And there are two
>> companies called Hewlett Packard which have nothing else in common.
>
>And the DEC company which used to make the VAX mainframes does not also
>make VAX vacuum cleaners.
>
>I wonder whether it is wise for both ex-P&O companies to continue to
>use the name, now that they are separate and now that the reputation of
>one will probably harm the other.
>
>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the
>one that makes computers and printers.

A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning off
their laptop brand to Lenovo.

>I always thought that Packard Bell as computer brand was taking the
>piss since people might assume that PB computers are the same quality
>as HP.

I was well into the PC Compatible marketplace when that happened.
Packard Bell was a legacy brand for consumer electronics in the USA, a
bit like Bush or Pye in the UK.

A startup bought the dormant brand and started churning out perfectly
acceptable PC clones, but they were clearly trying to get reflected
glory from the more recent [Hewlett] Packard, and Bell [conflated with
the telecoms company] reputations.

As Wikipedia diplomatically puts it: "Packard Bell sometimes benefited
from misplaced name recognition, with consumers (especially first-time
computer buyers)"
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HXZUD0tDjINiFALh@perry.uk...
> In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>
>>Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any
>>routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
>>ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country to
>>Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that the
>>ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was actually
>>well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out of the way
>>than Sangatte.
>
> If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
> probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a ferry
> from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent, Eurotunnel,
> then another almost 400km by road.
>
> Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.
>
> Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more extreme
> example of the same thing.

It's a shame that a lot of the North Sea ferries from Hull and Newcastle (eg
DFDS) no longer operate so you have to drive down south to get a ferry. It's
frustrating that when we go on a P&O cruise we always have to drive down
from Yorkshire to Southampton and that they don't operate also out of at
least one northern port (Liverpool, Hull, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow). I
know some competitors like Fred Olsen do.

Thinking of ferries, does anyone else remember the Eurotunnel being
humorously referred to as a "cross-channel ferret" - because it goes through
a tunnel? I though Google would find loads of matches for the phrase, which
I remember being in use about the time that the tunnel was being bored.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>
> I once went on an educational cruise with British India, on the MV Dunera.
> My brother later went on the MV Uganda.
>

SS Uganda not MV, even though P&O had ownership of BI for some time she
retained British India
Funnel colours to the end apart from the period she served as a Hospital
ship during the Falklands
conflict. Her compliment of schoolchildren passengers having a surprise
disembarkation at Naples
to facilitate the conversion.

GH

Am 18.03.2022 um 14:50 schrieb NY:
> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:HXZUD0tDjINiFALh@perry.uk...
>> In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are
>>> any routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have
>>> a long ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the
>>> country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European
>>> port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European
>>> port was actually well placed for the onward car journey and was not
>>> *more* out of the way than Sangatte.
>>
>> If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
>> probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a
>> ferry from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent,
>> Eurotunnel, then another almost 400km by road.
>>
>> Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.
>>
>> Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more
>> extreme example of the same thing.
>
> It's a shame that a lot of the North Sea ferries from Hull and Newcastle
> (eg DFDS) no longer operate so you have to drive down south to get a
> ferry.

On the ferries, Newcastle - Amsterdam, Hull - Rotterdam and
Hull-Zeebugge have run overnight since the 1990's (now with P&O).

I'm missing Newcastle - Hamburg and Newcastle - Bergen though (booked
once one-way each for a holidays) but as my UK time is over, I wouldn't
use them anyways.

Rolf

In message <t122mg$9ff$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:50:00 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:

>Thinking of ferries, does anyone else remember the Eurotunnel being
>humorously referred to as a "cross-channel ferret" - because it goes
>through a tunnel?

No, no heard that before. And as I was interested enough to buy some
(ultimately ill-fated) shares in Eurotunnel, I wasn't exactly unsighted
as to the chatter.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qHFfHzvyvINiFAPe@perry.uk...
>>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the one
>>that makes computers and printers.
>
> A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning off
> their laptop brand to Lenovo.

I think IBM/Lenovo is the opposite case to two different Hewlett
Packards/HPs, in that they are playing *down* the former association between
IBM and Lenovo, rather than continuing to trade on a link even though the
companies are now separate.

>>I always thought that Packard Bell as computer brand was taking the piss
>>since people might assume that PB computers are the same quality as HP.
>
> I was well into the PC Compatible marketplace when that happened. Packard
> Bell was a legacy brand for consumer electronics in the USA, a bit like
> Bush or Pye in the UK.
>
> A startup bought the dormant brand and started churning out perfectly
> acceptable PC clones, but they were clearly trying to get reflected glory
> from the more recent [Hewlett] Packard, and Bell [conflated with the
> telecoms company] reputations.
>
> As Wikipedia diplomatically puts it: "Packard Bell sometimes benefited
> from misplaced name recognition, with consumers (especially first-time
> computer buyers)"

"Misplaced name recognition". A guaranteed litigation-free euphemism :-)

I wonder whether there will ever come a time when companies which used to be
different divisions but are now separate companies with no managerial or
financial links are *forced* to adopt different names (with licensing of the
old name being illegal), to avoid any confusion.

Rolls Royce (cars / aero engines), P&O (ferries/cruises) and HP/Hewlett
Packard are ripe for confusion, especially the last two since there is an
overlap in the target markets. I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell
since there was an overlap of market - not like Harrods which don't want the
name "Harrod(s)" used for anything else, even when a small business is owned
by a Mr Harrod who had a rightful use of the name - there was a legal case a
few years ago.

It reminds me of my favourite TV programme from the past, "Boon", where the
security company was called CBS (Crawford Boon Security) which had no
connection with its more widely-known meaning of Columbia Broadcasting
System.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:54:23 -0000
"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote in message
>news:t11mps$158t$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not
>> much
>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>> calais.
>
>> Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>> never understood.
>
>Maybe differences between efficiencies of British/French loading/unloading
>processes, and (post-Brexit) British/French passport control. I presume both
>countries don't check passports on departure side, only on arrivals side.

Other way around. On arrival you just drive straight out and away.

I do know what the delay is - when you're called in the UK its usually
a very short wait in the queuing lanes then its board the train whereas in
France you see your boarding prompt on the screens then you end up sitting in
the lanes for 20 mins or so. What I don't know is why the French do that. Also
passport checks in France take longer because - wierdly - there always seem to
be more vehicles coming back than going out.

>Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are any

No idea now. Don't care if eurotunnel is twice the price, the time and hassle
saved makes it worth it.

>routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have a long
>ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the country to
>Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European port that the
>ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European port was actually
>well placed for the onward car journey and was not *more* out of the way
>than Sangatte.

If you're going to the west side of France then the 4 hour fast ferry from
portsmouth to cherbourg is a better option though its summertime only.
Otherwise calais is your best bet and its not out of the way if you want
Paris or the east particularly Belgium which is only 20 mins up the road.

>also claims that one). How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?

Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train until you
meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.

In message <t124np$kf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:43 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:qHFfHzvyvINiFAPe@perry.uk...
>>>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the
>>>one that makes computers and printers.
>>
>> A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning
>>off their laptop brand to Lenovo.
>
>I think IBM/Lenovo is the opposite case to two different Hewlett
>Packards/HPs, in that they are playing *down* the former association
>between IBM and Lenovo, rather than continuing to trade on a link even
>though the companies are now separate.

If you mean that Thinkpads are now always branded Lenovo rather than
IBM, a quick search on a site like Amazon will disabuse you.

>I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell since there was an overlap
>of market

HP have ferocious lawyers, and the fact Packard Bell traded at all is
testament to the idea they could not be stopped (assuming HP even wanted
to).

--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:07:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t124np$kf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:43 on Fri, 18 Mar
>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:qHFfHzvyvINiFAPe@perry.uk...
>>>>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the
>>>>one that makes computers and printers.
>>>
>>> A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning
>>>off their laptop brand to Lenovo.
>>
>>I think IBM/Lenovo is the opposite case to two different Hewlett
>>Packards/HPs, in that they are playing *down* the former association
>>between IBM and Lenovo, rather than continuing to trade on a link even
>>though the companies are now separate.
>
>If you mean that Thinkpads are now always branded Lenovo rather than
>IBM, a quick search on a site like Amazon will disabuse you.
>
>>I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell since there was an overlap
>>of market
>
>HP have ferocious lawyers, and the fact Packard Bell traded at all is
>testament to the idea they could not be stopped (assuming HP even wanted
>to).

Packard Bell was foundef in 1933 by a Mr. Packard and a Mr. Brll.
Hewlett Packard was founded in 1939 by a Mr. Hewlett and a different
Mr. Packard.

In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>
>Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train until you
>meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.

You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
walk through every carriage.

It's a long time since I've done it, but each Eurotunnel train is split
into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:15:39 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>>different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>
>>Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>>be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train until you
>
>>meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>
>You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>walk through every carriage.

You very much do if you're the first vehicle on either level.

>It's a long time since I've done it,

Translation: never

> but each Eurotunnel train is split
>into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.

It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving on
from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and lower
decks.

On 18/03/2022 09:04, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 08:57, Marland wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 06:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The P&O brand is, I think, owned by DP World. Carnival bought the
>>>> previously spun-off cruise operation, and presumably licenses the brand
>>>> from DP World.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose it could re-brand those cruise liners if the P&O brand is too
>>>> damaged.
>>>
>>> They are trading on the original P&O reputation of being the first
>>> company to operate cruise, as opposed to liner, services back in the
>>> 19th century.
>>>
>>
>> Though a few years back they changed the image a bit when thy moved away
>> from the Buff funnel colour and changed them to blue with a new shaped
>> Sun
>> logo.
>> IMHO they don’t look quite right now.
>>
>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>> from
>> would be Princess
>> which has long been associated with P&O cruises , ship transfers between
>> the two brands
>> have taken place on several occasions.
>
> Originally the company was P&O Princess when sold to Carnival.
>
>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK with the
>> Britishness of its ships for British  customers being one of their
>> selling
>> points that could be difficult to replace.
>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>
>
> Union Castle anyone? Or, God forbid, White Star?
>
> Bit of trivia, I applied for a cadetship as a deck officer with (the
> real) P&O back in the dim and distant. Failed the medical, ironically,
> considering my subsequent career, because of my eyesight.
>
>

Mention has been made of P&O splitting but each part still using the
brand. White Star was similar in that all their ship names ended in "ic"
such as Titanic, Olympic and Britannic. When White Star collapsed the
passenger ship section was bought by Cunard which, for a few years only,
branded themselves "Cunard White Star" and the cargo ship part of White
Star was taken over by Shaw Savill and from then on most of their ships
used the "ic" ending such as Gothic, Alaric, Majestic etc.

As to trivia - I was interviewed by British India (never bothered with
P&O) but chose Shaw Savill eventually.

--
Colin

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:50:22 +0000, Muttley wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:15:39 +0000 Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>How many parallel streams of traffic can board different parts of a
>>>>Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>>
>>>Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have
>>>to be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train
>>>until you
>>
>>>meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>>
>>You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>>passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>>walk through every carriage.
>
> You very much do if you're the first vehicle on either level.
>
>>It's a long time since I've done it,
>
> Translation: never
>
>> but each Eurotunnel train is split
>>into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>
> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having
> the double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars
> driving on from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for
> upper and lower decks.

I think they board at three places at once, one entrance for each of the
two car decks at the rear, and one half-way along for the double-height
section (only been in that bit with a car once). So in total, getting on
and getting off, you drive half the length of the train (assuming the
"halves" are equal length).

But it's so easy, just drive in a straight line until you get to the back
of the queue and stop where shown. Maybe some ferries are easy but the
ones I've been on all required some tight parking manoeuvres.

nib

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:07:55 -0000 (UTC)
nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:50:22 +0000, Muttley wrote:
>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having
>> the double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars
>> driving on from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for
>> upper and lower decks.
>
>I think they board at three places at once, one entrance for each of the
>two car decks at the rear, and one half-way along for the double-height
>section (only been in that bit with a car once). So in total, getting on
>and getting off, you drive half the length of the train (assuming the
>"halves" are equal length).
>
>But it's so easy, just drive in a straight line until you get to the back
>of the queue and stop where shown. Maybe some ferries are easy but the
>ones I've been on all required some tight parking manoeuvres.

Parking on fast ferries is like trying to park in a 1960s multistory where
the spaces were designed for 1st gen Minis and you have literally about 6
inches either side to squeeze yourself out of the car.

On 18/03/2022 10:15, NY wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS,
>> Stena, Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to
>> cream off the P&O trade.
>
> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe
> cities and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over
> the next few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a
> lot more honest) get their act together, and some of that business may
> well continue even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>
> I've not heard anything yet about a "rescue plan" to get people stranded
> overseas back to the UK, if rival firms can't cope with the extra demand
> or don't serve a given port. I foresee lots of claims for compensation
> where people with valid P&O tickets claim for out-of-pocket expenses for
> hotel accommodation and people having to buy tickets on rival ferries to
> get home.
>
> The whole thing was handled spectacularly badly by P&O Ferries' senior
> management (even down to the briefing by video, with no opportunity for
> Q&As *) and with staggering contempt for both the customers and
> employees. People have long memories: the damage that P&O Ferries will
> have done to their brand name (and, unfortunately, to P&O Cruises, an
> "innocent bystander") will take a long time to repair. Could we see P&O
> Cruises suing P&O Ferries for damage to the shared brand?  I do hope so ;-)
>

It seems that memories are short. In 1988 P&O at Dover sacked all their
NUS (as the seaman's union then was) staff and replaced them with
non-unionised staff (albeit still British). It took something like three
months to get all their Dover ferries back into operation with some of
the most virulent demonstrations at the gates to the docks with "scab"
seamen being taken in by coach plastered with rubbish thrown at them. I
know, I joined the Pride of Hythe (the last re-activated ship) in that
September and had to experience the gauntlet of the NUS demos getting to
work each day. Did not seem to harm P&O's reputation then so why now??
https://dover-strike-1988-89.tripod.com/Diary%20Of%20Events.htm
https://www.reportdigital.co.uk/archive-photos/1980s/p-o-seafarers-strike-1988-1989.html

--
Colin

In message <3q893hlcocqnj99v9j0nfiqpeesjcd4q8k@4ax.com>, at 10:25:45 on
Fri, 18 Mar 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:07:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t124np$kf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:43 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:qHFfHzvyvINiFAPe@perry.uk...
>>>>>I hadn't heard that there is another Hewlett Packard, apart from the
>>>>>one that makes computers and printers.
>>>>
>>>> A spin-off apparently, but maybe not was confusing as IBM spinning
>>>>off their laptop brand to Lenovo.
>>>
>>>I think IBM/Lenovo is the opposite case to two different Hewlett
>>>Packards/HPs, in that they are playing *down* the former association
>>>between IBM and Lenovo, rather than continuing to trade on a link even
>>>though the companies are now separate.
>>
>>If you mean that Thinkpads are now always branded Lenovo rather than
>>IBM, a quick search on a site like Amazon will disabuse you.
>>
>>>I'm surprised that HP tolerated Packard Bell since there was an overlap
>>>of market
>>
>>HP have ferocious lawyers, and the fact Packard Bell traded at all is
>>testament to the idea they could not be stopped (assuming HP even wanted
>>to).
>
>Packard Bell was founded in 1933 by a Mr. Packard and a
>Mr. Brll^H^H^H Bell.

Not the Mr Bell who invented the telephone though, I suspect, as he died
in 1922.

>Hewlett Packard was founded in 1939 by a Mr. Hewlett and a different
>Mr. Packard.

--
Roland Perry

In message <t129nu$pr3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:50:22 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:15:39 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>>>different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>>
>>>Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>>>be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train
>>>until you
>>
>>>meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>>
>>You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>>passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>>walk through every carriage.
>
>You very much do if you're the first vehicle on either level.

The train is absurdly long for that to be the case. 29 or 30 carriages,
give or take rounding errors.

>>It's a long time since I've done it,
>
>Translation: never

Re-Translation: a long time. Mainly the first couple of years of
operation, because as a shareholder we were given a small number
of free return tickets.

>> but each Eurotunnel train is split
>>into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>
>It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving on
>from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and lower
>decks.

How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
further reaches?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t12aor$7mm$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:07:55 on Fri, 18 Mar
2022, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:50:22 +0000, Muttley wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:15:39 +0000 Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>How many parallel streams of traffic can board different parts of a
>>>>>Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>>>
>>>>Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have
>>>>to be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train
>>>>until you
>>>
>>>>meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>>>
>>>You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>>>passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>>>walk through every carriage.
>>
>> You very much do if you're the first vehicle on either level.
>>
>>>It's a long time since I've done it,
>>
>> Translation: never
>>
>>> but each Eurotunnel train is split
>>>into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>>
>> It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>> will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having
>> the double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars
>> driving on from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for
>> upper and lower decks.
>
>I think they board at three places at once, one entrance for each of the
>two car decks at the rear, and one half-way along for the double-height
>section (only been in that bit with a car once). So in total, getting on
>and getting off, you drive half the length of the train (assuming the
>"halves" are equal length).

That sounds more reasonable than having to drive the whole length.

>But it's so easy, just drive in a straight line until you get to the back
>of the queue and stop where shown. Maybe some ferries are easy but the
>ones I've been on all required some tight parking manoeuvres.

Yes, I've been on numerous car ferries (but perhaps only one from Dover)
and they do try to pack the cars in like sardines. Their scarce resource
is cleanly square metres of footprint (not a limit on pax numbers, or
vehicle weights), and iirc they charge different amounts depending on
the length of vehicle.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:31:52 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t129nu$pr3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:50:22 on Fri, 18 Mar
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 15:15:39 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>
>>>>>How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>>>>different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>>>
>>>>Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>>>>be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train
>>>>until you
>>>
>>>>meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>>>
>>>You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>>>passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>>>walk through every carriage.
>>
>>You very much do if you're the first vehicle on either level.
>
>The train is absurdly long for that to be the case. 29 or 30 carriages,
>give or take rounding errors.
>
>>>It's a long time since I've done it,
>>
>>Translation: never
>
>Re-Translation: a long time. Mainly the first couple of years of
>operation, because as a shareholder we were given a small number
>of free return tickets.
>
>>> but each Eurotunnel train is split
>>>into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>>
>>It really isn't. Perhaps you're thinking of the lorry trains. At most it
>>will be 2 sections for the car trains with one of the sections having the
>>double height carraiges for coaches but I've only ever seen cars driving on
>>from one end of the platform into one of the 2 entrances for upper and lower
>>decks.
>
>How do the cars on the top deck get past the coaches, to access the
>further reaches?

Obviously they don't. But I don't know if the coach wagons are in every train
or only some of them. I've only ever been in one once and we must've been
through the tunnel a dozen times.

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:v$fepVAZTLNiFA8N@perry.uk...

> Yes, I've been on numerous car ferries (but perhaps only one from Dover)
> and they do try to pack the cars in like sardines. Their scarce resource
> is cleanly square metres of footprint (not a limit on pax numbers, or
> vehicle weights), and iirc they charge different amounts depending on the
> length of vehicle.

We've not been to the IoW since we got our new Honda CRV but its stated
length (in the brochure) is the exact length of the decision-point between
two different tariffs on the Lymington-Yarmouth ferry. When we next go (and
we've been thinking of it for a few years but cruises and then Covid got in
the way) it will be interesting to see what we are charged. Hopefully I can
get the car to breathe in and look small, and they won't charge it at the
higher tariff.