On 02/04/2022 16:42, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> All of them unless you're a farmer or mountain rescue. Buy a normal car instead
> of a poncemobile then you won't have to worry about lengths or heights when
> boarding ferries.

A lot of people have a vehicle used for work and private use. My
Freelander was "personal issue" so I could have used as my off duty
vehicle as many of my colleagues did.

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:30:00 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>A new motorised door mirror is about £150, a broken computer is often
>unfixable.

Perhaps for some cheap cars. But look at what a used Range Rover mirror costs:
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265212678037>

Yes, £1000 for a secondhand door mirror!

In message <t2eq1o$4n9$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:58:31 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:

>> The thing about a Freelander 2 is it's pretty close to a normal largish
>> estate car (inside and to drive) but just happens to be really good on
>> rough/slippery roads, plus if you need to traverse the odd muddy field,
>> or bump up the odd kerb, it takes it completely in its stride.
>
>I had similar thoughts about our Freelander 1s (presumably 1), we had
>them for visiting sites up steep rough tracks so they were unsuitable.
>If carrying a load (which we often did) it would bottom, if you
>reversed up a hill then the clutch would overheat and start smoking.

Yes, the Freelander 1 didn't get very good off-road reviews. I doubt a
CRV would have been any better.
--
Roland Perry

In message <31ql4h5q7jcs60akhnals9f8bmah06ud9f@4ax.com>, at 13:46:02 on
Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:32:17 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <4ull4h59f8nqtj6iv6ov443p8j9bjat9hb@4ax.com>, at 12:35:06 on
>>Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 06:18:49 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:50:58 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022,
>>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror segment
>>>>>> angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful and
>>>>>>I’ve missed it
>>>>>> ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>
>>>>>Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>uncommon with family cars.
>>>>
>>>>I thought most Volvos had them.
>>>>
>>>>>More commonly, the nearside mirror automatically dips when you select
>>>>>reverse gear.
>>>>
>>>>Never seen one of those.
>>>
>>>Standard on my cars since 1998.
>>
>>We are rapidly proving that one person's anecdata (mine or yours) in
>>this regard, isn't giving a particularly broad view of the marketplace.
>
>I was simply pointing out that it's a standard feature on many modern
>cars (and premium cars from decades ago).
>
>And you were saying you wouldn't know, as you've never driven a modern

I have (albeit only rentals). What's your excuse for not having seen
segmented mirrors?

>or premium car.

I had a big Mercedes for a few years. Really nice car. But not much good
for hauling bulky loads.
--
Roland Perry

Am 04.04.2022 um 13:31 schrieb NY:
> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel
> park without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they
> "know" at all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it.
> I'm not one of those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door mirrors, a
> central mirror (and/or a reversing camera if available) are essential.

We learned that in driving school in Germany; you won't pass the test if
the tyre mounts the curb or is more than 10cm away from the curb (the
tester must find a gap at least 10m long for you to demonstrate).

As you need to re-learn with every new car, it's not an ability that I
have preserved in 25 years without owning a car and with an underground
garage space at home since then.

Rolf

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:31:57 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>> automatically
>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>
>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be
>> seen
>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>
>Yes, when the auto-dipping facility of my passenger mirror works, it's
>great.
>
>What do you foresee the replacement for door mirrors will be? Cameras
>displaying on screens? Is it legal for a camera to display while you are
>driving forward, as opposed to when reversing? Reversing cameras have their
>uses - for determining how far your car is from the car behind, but they
>don't give you that crucial "how close is my rear nearside tyre to the kerb,
>to determine when to start turning so I'll end up parallel with the kerb"
>view.

Yes, some cars already come with cameras rather than physical mirrors, and they'll be increasingly common on BEVs, as
they're a way of ekeing out the range.

<https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086180_tesla-takes-the-lead-on-dumping-door-mirrors-for-video-cameras>

In message <t2ephk$n2$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:51:02 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:0QooSMP5+nSiFAkR@perry.uk...
>> Parallel parking is more of a "muscle memory" activity than watching a
>
>Ah, you're one of the "super-human" people I mentioned. I can
>parallel-park quickly and reliably, but only if I can see where my rear
>near-side tyre is relative to the kerb at all times, and start to turn
>when I gets close, also checking front left wing relative to rear right
>wing of car ahead, and position of rear end relative to front of car
>behind.
>
>Without those three sight-checks, I'd be utterly buggered.
>
>> And then "just do" the parking bit. I find I can reliably end up
>>exactly one inch from the kerb. It's one of those things which the
>>more you *think* about it, the more likely you are not to get it right.
>
>Hmm. I wish I could "just do" it, by muscle memory alone. I wonder how
>long I'd have to practice to get to that stage. Evidently forty years
>of driving, with parallel parking as required, isn't enough ;-)

I can't play the piano, and probably no amount of practising would help.

--
Roland Perry

In message <ocpl4h5rfie5ap940afcmt6p0dpb2kgmei@4ax.com>, at 13:35:49 on
Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:30:00 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ngll4hdo1vt263qod21qi2f78o711uhv8n@4ax.com>, at 12:34:13 on
>>Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:39:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <t2edf3$3an$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:23:47 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
>>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...

>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard,
>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a
>>>>>>>>>>policy of purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for
>>>>>>>>>>cars that didn't come with it as standard, so it already had
>>>>>>>>>>both mirrors fitted when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>>gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I
>>>>>>>>>had a good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the
>>>>>>>>>extremities of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a
>>>>>>>>> difficult without a passenger door mirror that is angled down
>>>>>>>>>so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the kerb, so
>>>>>>>>>you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>>remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>>very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>>right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door mirror.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate
>>>>>>>>mirror segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s
>>>>>>>>really useful and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but
>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>>automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one
>>>>>>>day be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other day
>>>>>> whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of slender
>>>>>stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones produce much less
>>>>>wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can contain more than one
>>>>>camera. You might, for example want to see a different view when reversing
>>>>>than in your rear view 'mirror' when driving forwards. You might also want
>>>>>the view on a different screen.
>>>>
>>>>Loads more stuff to go wrong. I bet the dealers are rubbing their hands
>>>>gleefully already.
>>>
>>>I wonder if that's true? Door mirrors have at least three electric
>>>motors, heating, a dimming electrochemical layer,
>>>indicators, perhaps puddle lights, and are quite vulnerable to being
>>>hit. They also need a small driver's control panel
>>>to adjust them, with all the associated wiring. That's a lot to go
>>>wrong or get damaged.
>>>
>>>The cameras are small, sealed, inexpensive units (related to phone
>>>cameras), probably with no moving parts.
>>
>>A new motorised door mirror is about £150, a broken computer is often
>>unfixable.
>
>It won't be a separate computer, just one of the many functions of the
>main computers.

Cars have dozens of computers, that's part of the problem.

>The camera strut should be much cheaper to replace than a modern door
>mirror, with its several motors, indicators, heater, dimmer, puddle
>light, etc.

Any idea of the price, I gave you mine. With any luck you'd have to
"register" it with the computer, with only a main dealer having the
codes.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:07:30 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t2eq1o$4n9$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:58:31 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
>MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>
>>> The thing about a Freelander 2 is it's pretty close to a normal largish
>>> estate car (inside and to drive) but just happens to be really good on
>>> rough/slippery roads, plus if you need to traverse the odd muddy field,
>>> or bump up the odd kerb, it takes it completely in its stride.
>>
>>I had similar thoughts about our Freelander 1s (presumably 1), we had
>>them for visiting sites up steep rough tracks so they were unsuitable.
>>If carrying a load (which we often did) it would bottom, if you
>>reversed up a hill then the clutch would overheat and start smoking.
>
>Yes, the Freelander 1 didn't get very good off-road reviews. I doubt a
>CRV would have been any better.

Probably much better built, though?

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:13:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <ocpl4h5rfie5ap940afcmt6p0dpb2kgmei@4ax.com>, at 13:35:49 on
>Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:30:00 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ngll4hdo1vt263qod21qi2f78o711uhv8n@4ax.com>, at 12:34:13 on
>>>Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:39:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <t2edf3$3an$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:23:47 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
>>>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard,
>>>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a
>>>>>>>>>>>policy of purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for
>>>>>>>>>>>cars that didn't come with it as standard, so it already had
>>>>>>>>>>>both mirrors fitted when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>>>>gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I
>>>>>>>>>>had a good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the
>>>>>>>>>>extremities of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a
>>>>>>>>>> difficult without a passenger door mirror that is angled down
>>>>>>>>>>so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the kerb, so
>>>>>>>>>>you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to straighten up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>>>>remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>>>>very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>>>>right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door mirror.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate
>>>>>>>>>mirror segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s
>>>>>>>>>really useful and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but
>>>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>>>>automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one
>>>>>>>>day be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other day
>>>>>>> whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of slender
>>>>>>stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones produce much less
>>>>>>wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can contain more than one
>>>>>>camera. You might, for example want to see a different view when reversing
>>>>>>than in your rear view 'mirror' when driving forwards. You might also want
>>>>>>the view on a different screen.
>>>>>
>>>>>Loads more stuff to go wrong. I bet the dealers are rubbing their hands
>>>>>gleefully already.
>>>>
>>>>I wonder if that's true? Door mirrors have at least three electric
>>>>motors, heating, a dimming electrochemical layer,
>>>>indicators, perhaps puddle lights, and are quite vulnerable to being
>>>>hit. They also need a small driver's control panel
>>>>to adjust them, with all the associated wiring. That's a lot to go
>>>>wrong or get damaged.
>>>>
>>>>The cameras are small, sealed, inexpensive units (related to phone
>>>>cameras), probably with no moving parts.
>>>
>>>A new motorised door mirror is about £150, a broken computer is often
>>>unfixable.
>>
>>It won't be a separate computer, just one of the many functions of the
>>main computers.
>
>Cars have dozens of computers, that's part of the problem.

You'll just have stick with ancient cars if you don't want cars with lost of computers in them.

>
>>The camera strut should be much cheaper to replace than a modern door
>>mirror, with its several motors, indicators, heater, dimmer, puddle
>>light, etc.
>
>Any idea of the price, I gave you mine. With any luck you'd have to
>"register" it with the computer, with only a main dealer having the
>codes.

Here's an example: £110
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294524034141>

As opposed to £1000 for a physical power mirror unit:
<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265212678037>

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:09:45 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <31ql4h5q7jcs60akhnals9f8bmah06ud9f@4ax.com>, at 13:46:02 on
>Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 13:32:17 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <4ull4h59f8nqtj6iv6ov443p8j9bjat9hb@4ax.com>, at 12:35:06 on
>>>Mon, 4 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 06:18:49 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <t2d4s2$ns8$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:50:58 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022,
>>>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror segment
>>>>>>> angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful and
>>>>>>>I’ve missed it
>>>>>>> ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>>uncommon with family cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>I thought most Volvos had them.
>>>>>
>>>>>>More commonly, the nearside mirror automatically dips when you select
>>>>>>reverse gear.
>>>>>
>>>>>Never seen one of those.
>>>>
>>>>Standard on my cars since 1998.
>>>
>>>We are rapidly proving that one person's anecdata (mine or yours) in
>>>this regard, isn't giving a particularly broad view of the marketplace.
>>
>>I was simply pointing out that it's a standard feature on many modern
>>cars (and premium cars from decades ago).
>>
>>And you were saying you wouldn't know, as you've never driven a modern
>
>I have (albeit only rentals). What's your excuse for not having seen
>segmented mirrors?

Why do I need an excuse for being right?

In message <t2ephl$n2$3@dont-email.me>, at 13:38:46 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:aDETWDnITuSiFARI@perry.uk...
>
>> A new motorised door mirror is about £150, a broken computer is often
>>unfixable.
>
>Ouch! I was lucky that when some toerag smashed my door mirror with an
>iron bar during a road-rage attack (sadly before the days of mobile
>phones and dashcams) it was only the casing and the glass of the mirror
>that needed to be replaced, and not the motor itself. I forget how much
>it cost me, but it was probably about £30 total (1995 prices, for a VW
>Golf Mark 3).

You can double that for inflation, at which point the greater complexity
of a modern one, and a whole new one, doesn't sound so bad.

Given a new tyre, or battery, or a tank of fuel, are all £100, it's
almost a consumable.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t2ephk$n2$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:31:57 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:

>I know there are some super-human people who say that they can parallel
>park without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is, and they
>"know" at all times how close their tyre is without needing to see it.
>I'm not one of those people.

It's not a case of knowing where the tyre is, what you know is how far
from the kerb to stop, and reverse, with the reversal geometry being
the same each time. The first couple of times in a new car you'll
probably over or undershoot, but from then on you know.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t2eqvl$co7$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:28 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can
>>parallel park without using the mirror on the side where the kerb is,
>>and they "know" at all times how close their tyre is without needing
>>to see it. I'm not one of those people. I can't reverse "blind". Door
>>mirrors, a central mirror (and/or a reversing camera if available)
>>are essential.
>
>We learned that in driving school in Germany; you won't pass the test
>if the tyre mounts the curb or is more than 10cm away from the curb
>(the tester must find a gap at least 10m long for you to demonstrate).

Is that in just one pass, or are you allowed to juggle forward and
backward at least once, which I know some people need to do?
--
Roland Perry

Am 04.04.2022 um 15:47 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <t2eqvl$co7$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:28 on Mon, 4 Apr 2022,
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>> I know there are some super-human people who say that they can
>>> parallel  park without using the mirror on the side where the kerb
>>> is, and they  "know" at all times how close their tyre is without
>>> needing to see it.  I'm not one of those people. I can't reverse
>>> "blind". Door mirrors, a  central mirror (and/or a reversing camera
>>> if available) are essential.
>>
>> We learned that in driving school in Germany; you won't pass the test
>> if the tyre mounts the curb or is more than 10cm away from the curb
>> (the tester must find a gap at least 10m long for you to demonstrate).
>
> Is that in just one pass, or are you allowed to juggle forward and
> backward at least once, which I know some people need to do?

Now you mention it I remember: juggling forwards and backwards once is
allowed (helping you avoid the curb), but the driving teacher practices
with you until you need to juggle once in at most 10% of the excercises.

In my current unpracticed state, I often need to juggle 3 or 4 times
when I parallel park behind another car.

On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it came with
>>>>>> an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of purchasing the
>>>>>> optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't come with it as
>>>>>> standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted when it was delivered to
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow gateposts/walls or
>>>>> to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a good view of the
>>>>> gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities of the car with my door
>>>>> mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb is particularly difficult without
>>>>> a passenger door mirror that is angled down so you can see how far your rear
>>>>> wheel is from the kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in
>>>>> to straighten up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could remotely point
>>>>> downwards, I found parallel parking on the left very difficult and tended if
>>>>> possible to parallel park on the right so I could see the kerb directly or
>>>>> via the driver's door mirror.
>>>>
>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror segment
>>>> angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful and I’ve missed it
>>>> ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>
>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror automatically
>>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>
>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be seen
>>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>
>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other day
>> whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>
> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of slender
> stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones produce much less
> wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can contain more than one
> camera. You might, for example want to see a different view when reversing
> than in your rear view 'mirror' when driving forwards. You might also want
> the view on a different screen.
>
>
>

My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
will before repairs etc come to the fore...

--
Colin

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 09:46:35 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t2eagc$14qj$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:33:16 on Mon, 4 Apr
>>And happens to be much higher and also more prone to rolling over.
>
>I know Prince Philip's one rolled over, but that wasn't because he went
>round a bend too fast.

Plenty of SUVs roll in accidents. Go have a look on youtube. To get a normal
car to roll usually involves hitting an obstruction, with an SUV it can simply
be a skid.

>>Oh come off it.
>
>You think bumping up kerbs in a family car with low profile tyres is a
>sensible thing to do?

Who said anything about low profile tyres? Plus plenty of SUV owners fit them
too.

>>For any other use case they're a joke.
>
>Useful for towing, as well. Someone I know has a Range Rover simply
>because he can tow his sailing boat with it more easily.

Any car with 4WD can tow quite well, you don't need an SUV unless you need
a low ratio gearbox for some specific use case. And if you need to pull
something heavy buy a pickup, they're usually rated with a higher max towing
weight anyway.

On 04/04/2022 13:04, MB wrote:
> On 04/04/2022 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>> Correct, they're not allowed in the Channel.
>
> Thought that would the case, remember that a bale of hay for your horse
> is a hazardous cargo!
>
>

Not totally correct (at least in marine law, I think Chunnel uses the
same UN base criteria). The bale of hay for your personal horse as in a
"pet" is classed differently than a bale of hay for your horse that is
used commercially (ploughing on a croft / pulling carriages for hire
etc). If there is a commercial element then it is "cargo" and falls
within the IMDG. For personal use not so.

Another example is a bottle of propane gas. Fixed to the drawbar of your
holiday caravan it is not cargo, the same bottle on the back of a
transit truck used by a plumber is cargo!

--
Colin

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 09:47:04 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t2eal2$16vu$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:35:46 on Mon, 4 Apr
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:27:18 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t29s2l$m8v$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:02:29 on Sat, 2 Apr 2022,
>>>martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>On 02/04/2022 16:42, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>I agree.
>>>>
>>>>I think those with vehicles like those above are going to be paying
>>>>hefty penalties for using them in future years.
>>>
>>>If they'd fix the roads (both potholes and sink holes, and crumbling
>>>edges) I'd swap it for something less thirsty. But you've still got the
>>>Queen Adelaide level-crossings, where I sail over at 30mph[1] like it
>>>wasn't there, whereas 20mph in a regular car feels like it's going to
>>>fall apart.
>>
>>Why not just buy a Humvee and be done with it? Or get an HGV license and
>>a 3rd hand scania with 1M miles for 10K?
>
>Now you are just being silly.

And you weren't when justifying owning an SUV so you can go over a level
crossing at speed without feeling the bumps?

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 09:50:50 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t2ean5$181m$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:36:53 on Mon, 4 Apr
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Plus they're all shorter than my very normal estate car, and all but the
>>>110 are shorter or the same as my very normal hatchback.
>>
>>And much higher.
>
>Why does that matter?

Multi story car parks, ferries, eurotunnel, roll over.

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:56:43 +0100
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>On 04/04/2022 09:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> And happens to be much higher and also more prone to rolling over.
>>
>
>There was a lot of fuss about 4WD vehicles rolling over, I remember a
>newspaper reporter went out with a police traffic driver, he drove round
>and around a roundabout without rolling over.

Well he wouldn't. The manufacturers would make sure going around a corner
in a controlled manner won't induce a roll. Its when a sudden skid or change of
direction that upsets the suspension which starts to bounce, oscillate, hit its
stops or all of the above that things start to go pear shaped.

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it came with
>>>>>>> an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of purchasing the
>>>>>>> optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't come with it as
>>>>>>> standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted when it was delivered to
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow gateposts/walls or
>>>>>> to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a good view of the
>>>>>> gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities of the car with my door
>>>>>> mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb is particularly difficult without
>>>>>> a passenger door mirror that is angled down so you can see how far your rear
>>>>>> wheel is from the kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in
>>>>>> to straighten up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could remotely point
>>>>>> downwards, I found parallel parking on the left very difficult and tended if
>>>>>> possible to parallel park on the right so I could see the kerb directly or
>>>>>> via the driver's door mirror.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror segment
>>>>> angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful and I’ve missed it
>>>>> ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>
>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror automatically
>>>> dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day be seen
>>>> as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>
>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other day
>>> whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>
>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of slender
>> stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones produce much less
>> wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can contain more than one
>> camera. You might, for example want to see a different view when reversing
>> than in your rear view 'mirror' when driving forwards. You might also want
>> the view on a different screen.
>>
>>
>>
>
>My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>will before repairs etc come to the fore...

At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a
physical control panel.

On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>
>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>
>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>
> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.

These little-lensed things seem to need quite frequent cleaning compared
to big mirrors. It took me a while to find my reversing camera tucked
away under a ridge by the number-plate illumination. Do posh cars have
self-cleaning ones?

nib

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:26:03 -0000 (UTC), nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:54:00 +0100, Recliner wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 15:36:23 +0100, ColinR
>> <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 04/04/2022 10:23, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:t2chds$gg8$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> I got my first company car in 1978, a Cavalier. As standard, it
>>>>>>>>> came with an offside door mirror, but the company had a policy of
>>>>>>>>> purchasing the optional nearside door mirror for cars that didn't
>>>>>>>>> come with it as standard, so it already had both mirrors fitted
>>>>>>>>> when it was delivered to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to have to reverse a car between narrow
>>>>>>>> gateposts/walls or to parallel-park against a kerb unless I had a
>>>>>>>> good view of the gateposts/walls/kerb relative to the extremities
>>>>>>>> of the car with my door mirrors. Parking against a left-hand kerb
>>>>>>>> is particularly difficult without a passenger door mirror that is
>>>>>>>> angled down so you can see how far your rear wheel is from the
>>>>>>>> kerb, so you know when to start to tuck the front wing in to
>>>>>>>> straighten up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Until I got a car with a passenger door mirror that I could
>>>>>>>> remotely point downwards, I found parallel parking on the left
>>>>>>>> very difficult and tended if possible to parallel park on the
>>>>>>>> right so I could see the kerb directly or via the driver's door
>>>>>>>> mirror.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some vehicles - the Fiat Multipla is one - have a separate mirror
>>>>>>> segment angled down so you can see the kerb. It’s really useful
>>>>>>> and I’ve missed it ever since our Multipla went its way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most large, commercial vehicles have multi-segment mirrors, but it's
>>>>>> uncommon with family cars. More commonly, the nearside mirror
>>>>>> automatically dips when you select reverse gear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, door mirrors are now on the way out, and they'll one day
>>>>>> be seen as as antiquated as wing mirrors do now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like the Honda (CR-V?) we were driving behind in the dark the other
>>>>> day whose rear view mirror was clearly a video screen?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Cameras are much smaller, and can be fitted at the ends of
>>>> slender stalks or on the boot lid or roof. The stalk-mounted ones
>>>> produce much less wind resistance than door mirrors, and a stalk can
>>>> contain more than one camera. You might, for example want to see a
>>>> different view when reversing than in your rear view 'mirror' when
>>>> driving forwards. You might also want the view on a different screen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>My last car had multiple cameras and, when reversing, the screen showed
>>>both the rear view and also, as they called it, a 360 degree view which
>>>showed the car as if you were some 10 feet above the car, showing the
>>>car park lines / pavement etc - was very useful. But no idea how long it
>>>will before repairs etc come to the fore...
>>
>> At a guess, small electronic things with no moving parts should last
>> longer than protruding motorised gadgets with a physical control panel.
>
>These little-lensed things seem to need quite frequent cleaning compared
>to big mirrors. It took me a while to find my reversing camera tucked
>away under a ridge by the number-plate illumination. Do posh cars have
>self-cleaning ones?
>

Not that I'm aware of, but they might mount them in cleaner locations? I don't think they'd want to have any sort of
wipers or sprayers. I suppose they could be mounted in a deep recess (in effect, a camera hood) to provide some
protection.

Perhaps a reversing camera could have a protective flap that only opened when the camera was needed? But that's then a
flimsy moving part that could fail.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 12:56:43 +0100
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 04/04/2022 09:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> And happens to be much higher and also more prone to rolling over.
>>>
>>
>> There was a lot of fuss about 4WD vehicles rolling over, I remember a
>> newspaper reporter went out with a police traffic driver, he drove round
>> and around a roundabout without rolling over.
>
> Well he wouldn't. The manufacturers would make sure going around a corner
> in a controlled manner won't induce a roll. Its when a sudden skid or change of
> direction that upsets the suspension which starts to bounce, oscillate, hit its
> stops or all of the above that things start to go pear shaped.
>
>
>

Well, there are lots of vehicles such as tall vans that if driven by a prat
will be unstable in some circumstances.
A case with some 4x4 drivers is the misguided perception that in snow and
Ice they are bombproof
an understanding that gets cut short when they discover that while their
vehicle is better than most
in getting and staying moving their brakes are not a lot better than those
fitted to most reasonably
modern cars , a situation exacerbated by their superior traction and
roadholding means they are often travelling faster than ordinary 2 wheel
drive vehicles would be.
Twice I have seen a 4x4 skid out of control upon braking in snow ,one
went into a deep ditch from which it needed assistance to get out from as
the nearside wheels were hanging in air, the other was one of those small
Suzuki things we helped a young woman emerge from after she slide sideways
into a kerb and it rolled onto its side. One of the other persons said “
you were travelling too fast ” to which she countered “but its got 4 wheel
drive and should have coped”. Clueless.

GH