Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 16:29:08 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:46:09 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> By Shetlandic are you refering to Norn (the Norse language that used to
>>>> be spoken there)? I thought that was in the same category as Cornish, of
>>>> being effectively dead, with no surviving native speakers.
>>>
>>> No, this <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_dialect>, and in fact the
>>
>> Interesting video, she's got a nice voice. Not that hard to understand for
>> me though , not compared to strong glaswegian :) Though I have the advantage
>> of my father using a some scots words and similar pronounciations when I was
>> growing up even though he was an east coaster.
>>
>>> languages from dialects, whether or not Shetland dialect is a separate
>>> language from Scots is much debated.
>>
>> A lot of language division is political. Norwegian vs swedish, czech vs
>> slovakian, romanian vs moldovan etc.
>
> Um, Norwegian and Swedish supposedly aren't mutually understandable.
> Scroll down to *Language*:
>
> <https://scandinaviafacts.com/are-norwegians-and-swedes-the-same-people/>
>
> Added to that is the quirk of Norwegian having two written systems:
>
I have a Norwegian friend who often does contract work in Sweden. He tells
me they understand each other. I also know Norwegians can understand
Danish.

On 03.02.23 01:34, Nobody wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 16:29:08 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:46:09 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> By Shetlandic are you refering to Norn (the Norse language that used to
>>>> be spoken there)? I thought that was in the same category as Cornish, of
>>>> being effectively dead, with no surviving native speakers.
>>>
>>> No, this <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_dialect>, and in fact the
>>
>> Interesting video, she's got a nice voice. Not that hard to understand for
>> me though , not compared to strong glaswegian :) Though I have the advantage
>> of my father using a some scots words and similar pronounciations when I was
>> growing up even though he was an east coaster.
>>
>>> languages from dialects, whether or not Shetland dialect is a separate
>>> language from Scots is much debated.
>>
>> A lot of language division is political. Norwegian vs swedish, czech vs
>> slovakian, romanian vs moldovan etc.
>
> Um, Norwegian and Swedish supposedly aren't mutually understandable.

As I mentionned in a different thread, I am currently working with a
group based in Sweden, and in one of the non-work-conversations I was
having over Teams with a colleague, I asked about this topic. The basic
gist of it is that Danish and Swedish are very close, but the Danes
speak with a quite distinctive accent, so Danes generally have little
difficulty understanding Swedish, but Swedes sometimes find the Danish
accent hard to understand, though people from the south, like Skåne,
whose accents are closer to Danish have little difficulty. Norwegian is
a bit more different in terms of the language itself, but the accent is
much easier for Swedes to understand. Generally, the view was that it's
not hard for speakers of any two of these languages to speak to one
another without resorting to eg switching to English.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 02.02.23 18:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 18:05:17 +0100
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 02.02.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:57:51 +0100
>>>> No, its 2 phrases joined by a conjuntion to form a sentence.
>>>
>>> Each half contains a grammatically complete sentence, and the case of
>>> the nouns and pronouns relates only its own half.
>>
>> The "he" in the 2nd half relates to one of the people in the first half, its
>> not self contained. No reason the pronoun couldn't specify which.
>
> In principle it could be possible for a language to have that feature.
> It is, however, not a feature of Indo-European languages, of which
> Latin, German, English and lots more, are examples. The example you
> gave has two subjects and two active verbs. The case of both relates to
> the verb with which they are (grammatically) associated.
>
>>>>> happy. English singular pronouns all retain separate case forms: I/me,
>>>>> thou/thee, he/him, she/her. If a marker for case could have meaning in
>>>>> this sentence, that would imply "Fred saw John and him was happy."
>>>>> should give the "other" meaning. That isn't the case.
>>>>
>>>> Using "him" doesn't add any clarity for me but YMMV.
>>>
>>> Right, because the case of the pronoun does not give any indication of
>>> which of Fred or John it relates to. In a language that is fully
>>> inflected for gender and case, exactly the same ambiguity arrises.
>>
>> Why would it if the language distiguished between subject and object with
>> following pronouns or pronoun endings? I don't know if such a language exists
>> but its perfectly feasible.
>
> The way cases and pronouns work in Indo-European languages doesn't allow
> for this. Pronouns are deliberately not tied to any specific noun,
> allowing them to be used in a generic sense, such as the "empty it" in
> sentences like "it is sunny". While it is grammatically a pronoun, the
> only reason it exists in that senence is because English requires a verb
> to have a subject, but there is no actual thing "being" sunny. Sunny is
> just a condition that exists.

I’m guessing that most of us geeks here will be aware of Tom Scott’s
language series on YouTube? This is one of my favourite episodes
<https://youtu.be/QYlVJlmjLEc>.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 3 Feb 2023 at 10:02:48 AM EET, "Bob" <bob@domain.com> wrote:

> As I mentionned in a different thread, I am currently working with a
> group based in Sweden, and in one of the non-work-conversations I was
> having over Teams with a colleague, I asked about this topic. The basic
> gist of it is that Danish and Swedish are very close, but the Danes
> speak with a quite distinctive accent, so Danes generally have little
> difficulty understanding Swedish, but Swedes sometimes find the Danish
> accent hard to understand, though people from the south, like Skåne,
> whose accents are closer to Danish have little difficulty. Norwegian is
> a bit more different in terms of the language itself, but the accent is
> much easier for Swedes to understand. Generally, the view was that it's
> not hard for speakers of any two of these languages to speak to one
> another without resorting to eg switching to English.

I suspect that while it's not hard to do, in practice nobody would actually
try if 'resorting' to English is available as an option... My company's
senior management consists of me, a Romanian, a Norwegian, a Dane, a Swede and
a Spaniard... Naturally the working language is English, but I have literally
never heard the Norwegian and the Dane (who are the original founders and
long-term friends) ever speak to each other in anything other than English,
nor the Swede. Even when intoxicated ;-).

Similarly Spanish/Romanian have a level of mutual 'muddling through'
intelligibility that can be useful in a push (and I was actually surprised the
last time I was in Italy at how much more background conversation I could pick
up since I learned Romanian,) but nobody is going to prefer that to switching
a common language like English that both properly understand.

The Norwegian and the Dane do use their native languages to speak with other
colleagues of the same nationality of course (albeit for social rather than
work conversations - we have something like 28 nationalities in the company so
strictly English-only for work comms,) and I can definitely confirm from a
personal point of view Norwegian is a hell of a lot easier on the ear than
Danish.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 20:03:44 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 02.02.23 18:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 18:05:17 +0100
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 02.02.23 17:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:57:51 +0100
>>>> No, its 2 phrases joined by a conjuntion to form a sentence.
>>>
>>> Each half contains a grammatically complete sentence, and the case of
>>> the nouns and pronouns relates only its own half.
>>
>> The "he" in the 2nd half relates to one of the people in the first half, its
>> not self contained. No reason the pronoun couldn't specify which.
>
>In principle it could be possible for a language to have that feature.
>It is, however, not a feature of Indo-European languages, of which
>Latin, German, English and lots more, are examples. The example you
>gave has two subjects and two active verbs. The case of both relates to
>the verb with which they are (grammatically) associated.

I wonder if it was added to Esperanto. If I can think it up then it's obviously
occured to professional liguists.

>> Why would it if the language distiguished between subject and object with
>> following pronouns or pronoun endings? I don't know if such a language exists
>
>> but its perfectly feasible.
>
>The way cases and pronouns work in Indo-European languages doesn't allow
>for this. Pronouns are deliberately not tied to any specific noun,
>allowing them to be used in a generic sense, such as the "empty it" in
>sentences like "it is sunny". While it is grammatically a pronoun, the
>only reason it exists in that senence is because English requires a verb
>to have a subject, but there is no actual thing "being" sunny. Sunny is
>just a condition that exists.

From what I remember of my abortive attempts to learn Russian , it doesn't
bother with "it is". They'd just say "sunny". But then IIRC it doesn't use
"be" in the present tense at all.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2023 16:34:03 -0800
Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 16:29:08 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:46:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> By Shetlandic are you refering to Norn (the Norse language that used to
>>>> be spoken there)? I thought that was in the same category as Cornish, of
>>>> being effectively dead, with no surviving native speakers.
>>>
>>>No, this <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_dialect>, and in fact the
>>
>>Interesting video, she's got a nice voice. Not that hard to understand for
>>me though , not compared to strong glaswegian :) Though I have the advantage
>>of my father using a some scots words and similar pronounciations when I was
>>growing up even though he was an east coaster.
>>
>>>languages from dialects, whether or not Shetland dialect is a separate
>>>language from Scots is much debated.
>>
>>A lot of language division is political. Norwegian vs swedish, czech vs
>>slovakian, romanian vs moldovan etc.
>
>Um, Norwegian and Swedish supposedly aren't mutually understandable.
>Scroll down to *Language*:
>
><https://scandinaviafacts.com/are-norwegians-and-swedes-the-same-people/>
>
>Added to that is the quirk of Norwegian having two written systems:
>
><https://lithub.com/why-are-there-two-distinct-ways-of-writing-norwegian/>
>
>And be careful how you dip your toes into the Croatian-Serbian divide.
>I've been told multiple times by self-speakers that the two are
>one-and-same vocally... until the written versions intervene with the
>Latin/Cyrillic divide where religion gets plonked in as well.

One look at written Polish (which uses the latin alphabet) tells me that
Cyrillic was well designed for the Slavic language family :)

On 03.02.23 10:15, Clank wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2023 at 10:02:48 AM EET, "Bob" <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> As I mentionned in a different thread, I am currently working with a
>> group based in Sweden, and in one of the non-work-conversations I was
>> having over Teams with a colleague, I asked about this topic. The basic
>> gist of it is that Danish and Swedish are very close, but the Danes
>> speak with a quite distinctive accent, so Danes generally have little
>> difficulty understanding Swedish, but Swedes sometimes find the Danish
>> accent hard to understand, though people from the south, like Skåne,
>> whose accents are closer to Danish have little difficulty. Norwegian is
>> a bit more different in terms of the language itself, but the accent is
>> much easier for Swedes to understand. Generally, the view was that it's
>> not hard for speakers of any two of these languages to speak to one
>> another without resorting to eg switching to English.
>
> I suspect that while it's not hard to do, in practice nobody would actually
> try if 'resorting' to English is available as an option... My company's
> senior management consists of me, a Romanian, a Norwegian, a Dane, a Swede and
> a Spaniard... Naturally the working language is English, but I have literally
> never heard the Norwegian and the Dane (who are the original founders and
> long-term friends) ever speak to each other in anything other than English,
> nor the Swede. Even when intoxicated ;-).
>
> Similarly Spanish/Romanian have a level of mutual 'muddling through'
> intelligibility that can be useful in a push (and I was actually surprised the
> last time I was in Italy at how much more background conversation I could pick
> up since I learned Romanian,) but nobody is going to prefer that to switching
> a common language like English that both properly understand.
>
>
> The Norwegian and the Dane do use their native languages to speak with other
> colleagues of the same nationality of course (albeit for social rather than
> work conversations - we have something like 28 nationalities in the company so
> strictly English-only for work comms,) and I can definitely confirm from a
> personal point of view Norwegian is a hell of a lot easier on the ear than
> Danish.

I have a work colleague from Skåne, the part of Sweden right across from
Copenhagen, and I asked him about this topic.

He tells me that he has basically no issues at all reading either Danish
or Norwegian, they are entirely clear. Due to the Danish accent, if
someone is speaking Danish, he can ususally follow, but it's hard to
keep up with a conversational pace. If he and a Dane both speak slowly
and clearly, then they can talk to one another with no problems. He says
Norwegian is much easier, basically he has no difficulty speaking with a
Norwegian, with neither person making an attempt to speak the other
language. He also tells me that people from Stokholm have a significant
difficulty understanding the Skåne accent, even though it is also
Swedish. He reckons if he spent maybe a month in Denmark getting used
to the accent, he would have no problem understanding and being
understood by Danes. Obviously just the opinion of one person, but it
aligns with what I've been given to believe by other Nordic people I know.

Robin

On 03.02.23 01:34, Nobody wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 16:29:08 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:46:09 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> By Shetlandic are you refering to Norn (the Norse language that used to
>>>> be spoken there)? I thought that was in the same category as Cornish, of
>>>> being effectively dead, with no surviving native speakers.
>>>
>>> No, this <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_dialect>, and in fact the
>>
>> Interesting video, she's got a nice voice. Not that hard to understand for
>> me though , not compared to strong glaswegian :) Though I have the advantage
>> of my father using a some scots words and similar pronounciations when I was
>> growing up even though he was an east coaster.
>>
>>> languages from dialects, whether or not Shetland dialect is a separate
>>> language from Scots is much debated.
>>
>> A lot of language division is political. Norwegian vs swedish, czech vs
>> slovakian, romanian vs moldovan etc.
>
> Um, Norwegian and Swedish supposedly aren't mutually understandable.
> Scroll down to *Language*:

I just asked a Swedish colleauge, and he tells me he can understand
Norwegian without any difficulty, so that would suggest they are
mutually understandable.

Robin

On 3 Feb 2023 at 1:41:33 PM EET, "Bob" <bob@domain.com> wrote:

> On 03.02.23 10:15, Clank wrote:
>> On 3 Feb 2023 at 10:02:48 AM EET, "Bob" <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As I mentionned in a different thread, I am currently working with a
>>> group based in Sweden, and in one of the non-work-conversations I was
>>> having over Teams with a colleague, I asked about this topic. The basic
>>> gist of it is that Danish and Swedish are very close, but the Danes
>>> speak with a quite distinctive accent, so Danes generally have little
>>> difficulty understanding Swedish, but Swedes sometimes find the Danish
>>> accent hard to understand, though people from the south, like Skåne,
>>> whose accents are closer to Danish have little difficulty. Norwegian is
>>> a bit more different in terms of the language itself, but the accent is
>>> much easier for Swedes to understand. Generally, the view was that it's
>>> not hard for speakers of any two of these languages to speak to one
>>> another without resorting to eg switching to English.
>>
>> I suspect that while it's not hard to do, in practice nobody would actually
>> try if 'resorting' to English is available as an option... My company's
>> senior management consists of me, a Romanian, a Norwegian, a Dane, a Swede and
>> a Spaniard... Naturally the working language is English, but I have literally
>> never heard the Norwegian and the Dane (who are the original founders and
>> long-term friends) ever speak to each other in anything other than English,
>> nor the Swede. Even when intoxicated ;-).
>>
>> Similarly Spanish/Romanian have a level of mutual 'muddling through'
>> intelligibility that can be useful in a push (and I was actually surprised the
>> last time I was in Italy at how much more background conversation I could pick
>> up since I learned Romanian,) but nobody is going to prefer that to switching
>> a common language like English that both properly understand.
>>
>>
>> The Norwegian and the Dane do use their native languages to speak with other
>> colleagues of the same nationality of course (albeit for social rather than
>> work conversations - we have something like 28 nationalities in the company so
>> strictly English-only for work comms,) and I can definitely confirm from a
>> personal point of view Norwegian is a hell of a lot easier on the ear than
>> Danish.
>
> I have a work colleague from Skåne, the part of Sweden right across from
> Copenhagen, and I asked him about this topic.
>
> He tells me that he has basically no issues at all reading either Danish
> or Norwegian, they are entirely clear. Due to the Danish accent, if
> someone is speaking Danish, he can ususally follow, but it's hard to
> keep up with a conversational pace. If he and a Dane both speak slowly
> and clearly, then they can talk to one another with no problems.

Indeed; I think we're violently agreeing ;).

> He says
> Norwegian is much easier, basically he has no difficulty speaking with a
> Norwegian, with neither person making an attempt to speak the other
> language. He also tells me that people from Stokholm have a significant
> difficulty understanding the Skåne accent, even though it is also
> Swedish. He reckons if he spent maybe a month in Denmark getting used
> to the accent, he would have no problem understanding and being
> understood by Danes. Obviously just the opinion of one person, but it
> aligns with what I've been given to believe by other Nordic people I know.

I have a Swedish friend (formerly CTO of a client - I am blessed with rather a
lot of clients in the Nordics) - who lives in Malmo that I haven't seen since
I married* him; I may construct some test scenarios to evalute scientifically
when I go to visit in a couple of months ;-).

* Officiated at the ceremony, that is. A properly inflected language would
allow that sentence to be written without confusion, I'm sure ;-).

On 03.02.23 12:57, Clank wrote:
> On 3 Feb 2023 at 1:41:33 PM EET, "Bob" <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 03.02.23 10:15, Clank wrote:
>>> On 3 Feb 2023 at 10:02:48 AM EET, "Bob" <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I mentionned in a different thread, I am currently working with a
>>>> group based in Sweden, and in one of the non-work-conversations I was
>>>> having over Teams with a colleague, I asked about this topic. The basic
>>>> gist of it is that Danish and Swedish are very close, but the Danes
>>>> speak with a quite distinctive accent, so Danes generally have little
>>>> difficulty understanding Swedish, but Swedes sometimes find the Danish
>>>> accent hard to understand, though people from the south, like Skåne,
>>>> whose accents are closer to Danish have little difficulty. Norwegian is
>>>> a bit more different in terms of the language itself, but the accent is
>>>> much easier for Swedes to understand. Generally, the view was that it's
>>>> not hard for speakers of any two of these languages to speak to one
>>>> another without resorting to eg switching to English.
>>>
>>> I suspect that while it's not hard to do, in practice nobody would actually
>>> try if 'resorting' to English is available as an option... My company's
>>> senior management consists of me, a Romanian, a Norwegian, a Dane, a Swede and
>>> a Spaniard... Naturally the working language is English, but I have literally
>>> never heard the Norwegian and the Dane (who are the original founders and
>>> long-term friends) ever speak to each other in anything other than English,
>>> nor the Swede. Even when intoxicated ;-).
>>>
>>> Similarly Spanish/Romanian have a level of mutual 'muddling through'
>>> intelligibility that can be useful in a push (and I was actually surprised the
>>> last time I was in Italy at how much more background conversation I could pick
>>> up since I learned Romanian,) but nobody is going to prefer that to switching
>>> a common language like English that both properly understand.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Norwegian and the Dane do use their native languages to speak with other
>>> colleagues of the same nationality of course (albeit for social rather than
>>> work conversations - we have something like 28 nationalities in the company so
>>> strictly English-only for work comms,) and I can definitely confirm from a
>>> personal point of view Norwegian is a hell of a lot easier on the ear than
>>> Danish.
>>
>> I have a work colleague from Skåne, the part of Sweden right across from
>> Copenhagen, and I asked him about this topic.
>>
>> He tells me that he has basically no issues at all reading either Danish
>> or Norwegian, they are entirely clear. Due to the Danish accent, if
>> someone is speaking Danish, he can ususally follow, but it's hard to
>> keep up with a conversational pace. If he and a Dane both speak slowly
>> and clearly, then they can talk to one another with no problems.
>
> Indeed; I think we're violently agreeing ;).
>
>> He says
>> Norwegian is much easier, basically he has no difficulty speaking with a
>> Norwegian, with neither person making an attempt to speak the other
>> language. He also tells me that people from Stokholm have a significant
>> difficulty understanding the Skåne accent, even though it is also
>> Swedish. He reckons if he spent maybe a month in Denmark getting used
>> to the accent, he would have no problem understanding and being
>> understood by Danes. Obviously just the opinion of one person, but it
>> aligns with what I've been given to believe by other Nordic people I know.
>
> I have a Swedish friend (formerly CTO of a client - I am blessed with rather a
> lot of clients in the Nordics) - who lives in Malmo that I haven't seen since
> I married* him; I may construct some test scenarios to evalute scientifically
> when I go to visit in a couple of months ;-).
>
>
> * Officiated at the ceremony, that is. A properly inflected language would
> allow that sentence to be written without confusion, I'm sure ;-).

The problem isn't one that could be solved by inflection, as it is the
actual usage of the verb to marry that has changed. The older usage is
still evident in sentances like "I'm getting married in the morning"
(and not "I'm marrying in the morning"), but English speakers have
decided that an alterative usage is acceptable for the subject of the
verb to be one of the people being wed.

Robin

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 12:46:38 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 03.02.23 01:34, Nobody wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 16:29:08 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 12:46:09 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> By Shetlandic are you refering to Norn (the Norse language that used to
>>>>> be spoken there)? I thought that was in the same category as Cornish, of
>>>>> being effectively dead, with no surviving native speakers.
>>>>
>>>> No, this <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland_dialect>, and in fact the
>>>
>>> Interesting video, she's got a nice voice. Not that hard to understand for
>>> me though , not compared to strong glaswegian :) Though I have the advantage
>>> of my father using a some scots words and similar pronounciations when I was
>>> growing up even though he was an east coaster.
>>>
>>>> languages from dialects, whether or not Shetland dialect is a separate
>>>> language from Scots is much debated.
>>>
>>> A lot of language division is political. Norwegian vs swedish, czech vs
>>> slovakian, romanian vs moldovan etc.
>>
>> Um, Norwegian and Swedish supposedly aren't mutually understandable.
>> Scroll down to *Language*:
>
>I just asked a Swedish colleauge, and he tells me he can understand
>Norwegian without any difficulty, so that would suggest they are
>mutually understandable.
>
>Robin

<g> That's why I added that link and the *scroll* suggestion to
bolster the possibility, as well as "supposedly".

All to keep my whatever covered...

In message <trdrne$c9sr$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:07:42 on Wed, 1 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <trbc0c$3s4hj$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:27:08 on Tue, 31 Jan
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tr9ge7$3fhkg$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:30:31 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> But then it's on one of seven or eight screenfulls to swipe between;
>>>>>>>>>> needle in a haystack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Search function? I usually get the app I want within 2 or 3
>>>>>>>>>keystrokes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't that mean you have to know the name? They are becoming
>>>>>>>>even more
>>>>>>>> bizarre (and disjoint from a description of the function).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you can't remember the name of the app perhaps you don't need
>>>>>>>it after
>>>>>>> all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember the function I want, not the bizarre name the company calls
>>>>>> itself. Another example to add to those I've mentioned earlier - to rent
>>>>>> an electric scooter in Cambridge the app name has no clues about any of
>>>>>> that, but is called "Voi".
>>>>>
>>>>> If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the results.
>>>>> Not right at the top, where it would if I searched for "voi" (in the
>>>>> section titled "top hits"), but in the third section "apps" (below "Siri
>>>>> suggestions", in this case a selection of web results) - but still on the
>>>>> first screen, above the keyboard at the bottom of the screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's almost as if, perhaps, someone has already thought of this?
>>>>
>>>> Let's try: A generic search for "scoot" has:
>>>>
>>>> Scooter (Musical Band).
>>>> Scoot (could be a sponsored ad for an app).
>>>> later... no, it's a Singapore airline.
>>>> Scoot 66 - Liverpool HUH?
>>>> Scooters for sale
>>>> Scooters for sale Cambridge
>>>> Scooter electric
>>>> Scooter suitcase
>>>> ScooterMan (a transport service in London, apparently).
>>>> Scooter for 2 year old
>>>> Scooter for 10 year old
>>>> Scoot McNairy (American Actor)
>>>>
>>>> {Actually I cheated, only the first six are above the keyboard, I had to
>>>> zap it to get the rest).
>>>
>>> We've already determined that you can't find a way to search for apps on
>>> your phone,
>>
>> That's because there isn't a way, however much I try to follow the
>> advice of people who are blind to that fact.
>
>Except the way (Google Play store) which has been pointed out by Recliner).

It's indirect, but yes it does finally give an answer if you can come up
with the appropriate search terms.

>>> so searching for an app and not being able to find it on your phone is
>>> not unexpected.
>>
>> I did *exactly, *precisely*, what *you* recommended. Viz: Using the
>> search on my phone. If you don't like the result, then perhaps you
>> should revisit the accuracy of your advice.
>
>I said, "If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the
>results". I have an iPhone, as you know. Perhaps I should have repeated
>that fact in the statement, but to do so for everything which might get
>quibbled would make posts both unwriteable and unreadable.

And yet in another thread (about doors on buses at Geneva Airport) I'm
being berated for *not* adopting that strategy.
--
Roland Perry

In message <bbdnth16gukakrofpdrpls2q0hmv37hj0g@4ax.com>, at 13:10:43 on
Thu, 2 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 16:14:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <trc5i6$hic$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:43:18 on Tue, 31 Jan
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <6mnhthhhqrsauchfp7r1jdjdp0rpj0llqp@4ax.com>, at 09:29:56 on
>>>>> Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 20:43:19 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On iPhone it's "swipe down on the home screen". I don't have my
>>>>>>>>work phone
>>>>>>>> with me right now to try on android.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've tried on two here. Zilch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How on earth do you do an internet search on your phone? On my home
>>>>>> screen there's a Google search box. I type, or begin to type, a search
>>>>>> term into it and get results, whether they're apps or internet
>>>>>> results.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do the above[1], but it never returns any results which are apps
>>>>> installed on my phone, …
>>>>
>>>> You’ve got a crap phone,
>>>
>>> $600 phones from LG and Samsung. Their marketing departments would be
>>> mortified.
>>
>>Neither which has a really useful feature which every phone used by the
>>other correspondents here has. <shrug>
>
>Android is highly configurable, both by the manufacturer and the user,
>so it could well be that Roland's phones don't access Drawer mode by
>swiping up on the home screen. Mine doesn't, either, but I obviously do
>know how to access that mode on my phone, and how to find all loaded
>apps. Roland's problem is that, despite thinking he's an expert, he
>doesn't know the basics of how to use an Android phone.

My problem is that despite being an expert at using at least three
mobile phone platforms for purposes other than merely finding an
app-in-a-haystack, when I try the relevant "Basics" mentioned here they
don't work. On my phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ln1lthdstkhgaq70irlta799lidpc43bg5@4ax.com>, at 15:39:58 on
Wed, 1 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>99 times out of 100 I use Google Play on my laptop (because the UI is
>>vastly superior). It then pushes and installs the app I want on my
>>phone. Extremely effectively (which is why I've never complained about
>>it). Although if pressed, I might say it's not particularly helpful to
>>be offered a choice of target device by its part number, rather than
>>something a bit more intuitive.
>>
>>Just to show willing, here's what I get if I do a search on "scoot" in
>>Google Play, on the phone:
>>
>>Scooter
>>Scooter Game
>>Scooty Game
>>Scoot <<- That Singapore airline again
>>Scooter Wala Game
>
>I don't suppose it occurred to you to type something like 'scooter camb'?

It says "did you mean Scooter Camp", but then lists Voi as the top
result. Then I have to click the link, then click "Open". So better than
nothing, but still quite a faff.

I see the following T&C for hiring one (which I'll wager are broken time
and time again):

Valid Driving Licence
Obey the Highway Code
Ride in bike lanes and roads, never pavements

That last one, especially.

--
Roland Perry

In message <trdhhm$aff6$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:13:58 on Wed, 1 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>
>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>> marketing person).
>
>Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>
>Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.

I think Branson has a reasonable explanation for why he called the
company "Virgin", and Alan Michael Sugar Trading isn't a product, any
more than Thomas Edward Stockwell COhen.

By beef is much more with names like Demon's successor "Thus", and as I
mentioned earlier apps like "Bolt" and "Bright".

>If every business name had to be relevant to the product, you'd perhaps end
>up with a rather communist "Supermarket number 3" "Internet provider number
>5" kind of system?

The CoOp's robot delivery service is called "Starship". Go figure.

I was speculating the other day having seen two waiting forlornly (and
armlessly) at a Pelican Crossing, whether or not they had room inside
for both a can of baked beans *and* a sixteen-pack of toilet rolls.
Probably not.

I suppose some might commend their enterprise, though.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:04:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ln1lthdstkhgaq70irlta799lidpc43bg5@4ax.com>, at 15:39:58 on
>Wed, 1 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>99 times out of 100 I use Google Play on my laptop (because the UI is
>>>vastly superior). It then pushes and installs the app I want on my
>>>phone. Extremely effectively (which is why I've never complained about
>>>it). Although if pressed, I might say it's not particularly helpful to
>>>be offered a choice of target device by its part number, rather than
>>>something a bit more intuitive.
>>>
>>>Just to show willing, here's what I get if I do a search on "scoot" in
>>>Google Play, on the phone:
>>>
>>>Scooter
>>>Scooter Game
>>>Scooty Game
>>>Scoot <<- That Singapore airline again
>>>Scooter Wala Game
>>
>>I don't suppose it occurred to you to type something like 'scooter camb'?
>
>It says "did you mean Scooter Camp", but then lists Voi as the top
>result. Then I have to click the link, then click "Open". So better than
>nothing, but still quite a faff.

It's pretty easy, considering you'd forgotten the name of the app.

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:11:07 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <bbdnth16gukakrofpdrpls2q0hmv37hj0g@4ax.com>, at 13:10:43 on
>Thu, 2 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 16:14:37 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <trc5i6$hic$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:43:18 on Tue, 31 Jan
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <6mnhthhhqrsauchfp7r1jdjdp0rpj0llqp@4ax.com>, at 09:29:56 on
>>>>>> Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 20:43:19 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On iPhone it's "swipe down on the home screen". I don't have my
>>>>>>>>>work phone
>>>>>>>>> with me right now to try on android.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've tried on two here. Zilch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How on earth do you do an internet search on your phone? On my home
>>>>>>> screen there's a Google search box. I type, or begin to type, a search
>>>>>>> term into it and get results, whether they're apps or internet
>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do the above[1], but it never returns any results which are apps
>>>>>> installed on my phone, …
>>>>>
>>>>> You’ve got a crap phone,
>>>>
>>>> $600 phones from LG and Samsung. Their marketing departments would be
>>>> mortified.
>>>
>>>Neither which has a really useful feature which every phone used by the
>>>other correspondents here has. <shrug>
>>
>>Android is highly configurable, both by the manufacturer and the user,
>>so it could well be that Roland's phones don't access Drawer mode by
>>swiping up on the home screen. Mine doesn't, either, but I obviously do
>>know how to access that mode on my phone, and how to find all loaded
>>apps. Roland's problem is that, despite thinking he's an expert, he
>>doesn't know the basics of how to use an Android phone.
>
>My problem is that despite being an expert at using at least three
>mobile phone platforms for purposes other than merely finding an
>app-in-a-haystack, when I try the relevant "Basics" mentioned here they
>don't work. On my phone.

Yup, that just proves you don't know how to use your own phone, or Android phones in general.

In message <trdlel$b6d4$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:20:37 on Wed, 1 Feb
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 1 Feb 2023 at 1:29:21 PM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> On 01/02/2023 11:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>>>
>>>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>>>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>>>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>>>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>>> marketing person).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>>
>>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>>
>> Amstrad being a bad example, as Roland will no doubt point out.
>
>Amstrad was a bad example of more or less everything... One of our jobs after
>BSkyB finally bought them ought and fired AMS was to reverse, in their set-top
>production, all the terrible cheap-component penny-pinching which made Amstrad
>famous in the first place. For a few pence extra in the BoM for the products,
>the savings in sending engineers out to replace the wretched things when they
>inevitably failed more than paid for itself.

If you say so. I had very little to do with the set top box side of the
operation, but cherish the memory of the day AMS wandered into my office
and said with a grin "I've just bought a Satellite", which of course was
lingo at the time for a Satellite Dish, and so I was expecting him to
ask us to give it try, to see if it was a new line of business worth
getting into.

(We'd had other off-piste assignments for the computer designing team to
deal with from time to time, such as Fax machines and a couple of other
things we turned down and I won't bore you with right now).

But no, what he meant was he'd bought (at least some share of an
interest in) one of those things up in orbit.

As for the computers, it's long been the case that the use of state of
the art semiconductors has been airbrushed out of the history by people
who maybe once had an 8-track player which ate one of their tapes.

I also remember talking to the Mastercare management who said "oh dear,
not another potentially unreliable product for us to have to fix",
"about half the car cassette players we get in the workshop to fix are
Amstrad brand". But not being statisticians they didn't appreciate the
fact that with 80% of the car cassette players *sold* by Dixons being
Amstrad brand, that actually meant they were *more* reliable than the
opposition.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:27:03 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>The CoOp's robot delivery service is called "Starship". Go figure.

That's the name of the robot, not the delivery service.

>
>I was speculating the other day having seen two waiting forlornly (and
>armlessly) at a Pelican Crossing, whether or not they had room inside
>for both a can of baked beans *and* a sixteen-pack of toilet rolls.
>Probably not.

No, probably not, as that's quite a small robot with only a 10kg payload. Larger, faster models are available (eg, the
Amazon Scout or TeleRetail), of course, for the sort of businesses that need them.

>
>I suppose some might commend their enterprise, though.

Obviously not you.

On 05/02/2023 15:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <trdhhm$aff6$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:13:58 on Wed, 1 Feb
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>>
>>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>> marketing person).
>>
>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up
>> by a
>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>
>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>
> I think Branson has a reasonable explanation for why he called the
> company "Virgin", and Alan Michael Sugar Trading isn't a product, any
> more than Thomas Edward Stockwell COhen.
>
> By beef is much more with names like Demon's successor "Thus", and as I
> mentioned earlier apps like "Bolt" and "Bright".
>

First? One?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <trdoe2$bnc1$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:11:30 on Wed, 1 Feb
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>>
>>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>>
>> Amstrad being a bad example, as Roland will no doubt point out.
>
>Alan Michael Sugar TRADing; could be trading in anything, nothing in the
>name to suggest it's a computer/technology company.

Nor indeed in the public perception of the company until perhaps 1986/7
when that particular branch of the extremely diverse product line became
dominant. In 1983 when I first became involved it was probably "tower
systems" (the all-in-one 'hifi').
--
Roland Perry

In message <trdo1v$bi83$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:05:03 on Wed, 1 Feb
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 01.02.23 12:29, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 01/02/2023 11:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>>>
>>>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>>>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>>>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>>>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>>> marketing person).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed
>>>up by a
>>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>>
>>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>> Amstrad being a bad example, as Roland will no doubt point out.
>
>Surely Amstrad is an example of "someone's (equally irrelevant to the
>product) name", it being and abbreviated Alan Michael Sugar Trading.
>Had Alan Sugar decided his best bet for making money was on selling
>shoes, then we might associate Amstrad with trainers rather than cheap
>electronics.

One of the first products he was apparently quite successful with was
[blue] jeans, but for some reason history has not recorded that.

Later companies were more focussed on the product, rather than the
element of general-trading.

For example AMSPROP (property), AMSAIR (executive jets based at Luton)
and AMSCREEN (LCD advertising panels).

And not forgetting the games development and publishing, accessories,
magazine, and User Club outfit called AMSOFT - whose 40th anniversary is
coming up fast.
--
Roland Perry

In message <mujvth9r1128hdo6be4an40vqehpgpmetm@4ax.com>, at 15:53:09 on
Sun, 5 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:27:03 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>The CoOp's robot delivery service is called "Starship". Go figure.
>
>That's the name of the robot, not the delivery service.

Nope, to all intents and purposes it's the name of the CoOp's delivery
app.

>>I was speculating the other day having seen two waiting forlornly (and
>>armlessly) at a Pelican Crossing, whether or not they had room inside
>>for both a can of baked beans *and* a sixteen-pack of toilet rolls.
>>Probably not.
>
>No, probably not, as that's quite a small robot with only a 10kg
>payload. Larger, faster models are available (eg, the
>Amazon Scout or TeleRetail), of course, for the sort of businesses that
>need them.

The people who need grocery delivery robots are members of the public.

>>I suppose some might commend their enterprise, though.
>
>Obviously not you.

I'm tempted to say "PC Fixed disk drive not ready", but "Whoosh" is
shorter.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <mujvth9r1128hdo6be4an40vqehpgpmetm@4ax.com>, at 15:53:09 on
> Sun, 5 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:27:03 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The CoOp's robot delivery service is called "Starship". Go figure.
>>
>> That's the name of the robot, not the delivery service.
>
> Nope, to all intents and purposes it's the name of the CoOp's delivery
> app.

I see no such Co-Op app. There is a Starship app that's not specific to the
Co-Op.

>
>>> I was speculating the other day having seen two waiting forlornly (and
>>> armlessly) at a Pelican Crossing, whether or not they had room inside
>>> for both a can of baked beans *and* a sixteen-pack of toilet rolls.
>>> Probably not.
>>
>> No, probably not, as that's quite a small robot with only a 10kg
>> payload. Larger, faster models are available (eg, the
>> Amazon Scout or TeleRetail), of course, for the sort of businesses that
>> need them.
>
> The people who need grocery delivery robots are members of the public.

Don't be silly. The members of the public just need deliveries.

It's the retailer that decides whether to use a cylist with a box strapped
to his back, an organ donor on a moped, a person in their private car, a
man in a van, an HGV with a team, or a robot. And if the latter, which
model.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 05/02/2023 15:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <trdhhm$aff6$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:13:58 on Wed, 1 Feb
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>>>
>>>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>>>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>>>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>>>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>>> marketing person).
>>>
>>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up
>>> by a
>>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>>
>>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>>
>> I think Branson has a reasonable explanation for why he called the
>> company "Virgin", and Alan Michael Sugar Trading isn't a product, any
>> more than Thomas Edward Stockwell COhen.
>>
>> By beef is much more with names like Demon's successor "Thus", and as I
>> mentioned earlier apps like "Bolt" and "Bright".
>>
>
> First? One?

Somewhat to my surprise, the bizarre O2 brand has been retained after the
Virgin Media merger. My Virgin Mobile service already uses the O2 network,
and the branding will also switch soon. The switch of networks happened
seamlessly, and I only discovered this month that it had happened last
year.