On 23/01/2023 09:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>
>>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>>
>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>
>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>>
>>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>>> 332m people in one country
>>>
>>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>>
>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>
>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>
>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>
> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>

Handy for sheep spotters.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>
>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>
>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>
> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.

The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while one
can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm going
to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 13:40:49 +0000, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 13:25:20 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/01/2023 13:04, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 22/01/2023 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <042cnQBTP7x0klD-nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 10:28:56 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20
>>>>>>> Jan 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>> 17th  Jan.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>  I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't says it is a surprise.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Times article is written in a style that clearly indicates they
>>>>> think sufficient of their readers will be surprised by not just the
>>>>> scheme itself, but the potential disruption.
>>>>
>>>> They could be right, it still comes as a surprise to Times readers that
>>>> what they voted for actually happened.
>>>>
>>> They're also surprised what it actually meant.
>>
>> The Times was not pro-Brexit, and I suspect that it had more Remainer
>> than Brexiteer readers.
>
> The Sunday Times was pro-Brexit before it was a thing and never
> wavered, with the glaring exception of David Smith's business section.
>

Yes, the Times is carefully neutral, whereas the Sunday Times is right of
centre. I could envisage the Times endorsing Labour in the 2024 election,
while the Sunday Times will certainly endorse the Tories.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>
>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>
>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>
>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>
> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while one
> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm going
> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>

Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
nightmare.

On 23/01/2023 10:42, Recliner wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>
>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>
>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>
>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>
>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while one
>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm going
>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>
>
> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
> nightmare.
>
>

So he's scared of flying, lots of people are.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:34:41 -0000 (UTC)
Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax
>of
>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>
>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>
>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>
>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>
>The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while one
>can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm going
>to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
>attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...

Someone entrusted you with procuring a $100M contract or are you just the
bag carrier? Perhaps they need someone to look after the sheep too.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:42:14 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax
>of
>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>
>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>
>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>
>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>
>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while
>one
>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm
>going
>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
>
>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>
>
>Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
>nightmare.

I once spent 24 hours on a sleeper train across europe. I won't be doing that
again in a hurray either and that had a proper bunk and restaurant car. A day
in any form of transport is my idea of a nightmare but crammed in to an
economy seat for an entire day and night... no fucking way, plane or not.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:43:45 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 23/01/2023 10:42, Recliner wrote:
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>
>>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor
>tax of
>>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>
>>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>>
>>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>>
>>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while
>one
>>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm
>going
>>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume
>your
>>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>>
>>
>> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
>> nightmare.
>>
>>
>
>So he's scared of flying, lots of people are.

Its one of the most common phobias IIRC. Though I can still force myself to do
short haul flights but I'm done with long haul now.

On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>
>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>> travellers.
>>>>
>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>
>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>
>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>
>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>
>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>
>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>
> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?

Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.

Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.

EES Parcitipant countries: all Schengen plus RO and BG.

Robin

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>
>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>
>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>
>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>
>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>
>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>
>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>
>Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>
>Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.

If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.

On 23 Jan 2023 at 12:42:14 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>
>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>
>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>
>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>
>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while one
>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm going
>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>
>
> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
> nightmare.

If I'm honest with you, flying that far direct is among my worst nightmares as
well, even in the nicest of cabins I go a little stir crazy.

That's why usually if I have a long-haul business trip, I'll take a few days
either end and come up with something to break the journey. On this occasion
I'm going to fly to Singapore a week before - break up the journey, and also
allow me to get rid of the worst of the jetlag in my own time: I can go west
all day long without much bother, but travelling east kills me. Only a liberal
prescription of spa and sauna facilities can help (that's my excuse anyway,
and I'm sticking to it.)

Quite looking forward to it, first time in Singapore. And also first time on
an A350, and first time with Qatar's "Qsuite" product, which I'm quite looking
forward to trying out.

On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:

> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>
>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>
>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>
>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>
>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>
>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>
>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>
> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.

There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.

Robin

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:13:51 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:43:45 +0000
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 23/01/2023 10:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>
>>>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor
>>tax of
>>>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>
>>>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>>>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>>>
>>>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while
>>one
>>>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm
>>going
>>>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume
>>your
>>>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
>>> nightmare.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>So he's scared of flying, lots of people are.
>
>Its one of the most common phobias IIRC. Though I can still force myself to do
>short haul flights but I'm done with long haul now.

Another common phobia seems to be the deep Tube. I've come across a number of people who avoid using deep Tube lines,
and will take quite convoluted routes instead. But they will use the sub-surface, Moorgate or Elizabeth lines.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:47:30 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On 23 Jan 2023 at 12:42:14 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>>
>>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>>
>>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And while one
>>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think I'm going
>>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I presume your
>>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>>
>>
>> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his worst
>> nightmare.
>
>If I'm honest with you, flying that far direct is among my worst nightmares as
>well, even in the nicest of cabins I go a little stir crazy.
>
>That's why usually if I have a long-haul business trip, I'll take a few days
>either end and come up with something to break the journey. On this occasion
>I'm going to fly to Singapore a week before - break up the journey, and also
>allow me to get rid of the worst of the jetlag in my own time: I can go west
>all day long without much bother, but travelling east kills me. Only a liberal
>prescription of spa and sauna facilities can help (that's my excuse anyway,
>and I'm sticking to it.)
>
>Quite looking forward to it, first time in Singapore. And also first time on
>an A350, and first time with Qatar's "Qsuite" product, which I'm quite looking
>forward to trying out.

Yes, I went via Singapore as well, on SQ.

On 23/01/2023 10:43, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 10:42, Recliner wrote:
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand
>>>>> "NZeTA" for a
>>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory
>>>>> visitor tax of
>>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever
>>>>> experienced... But
>>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>>
>>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you
>>>> can't
>>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and
>>>> enviroments.
>>>
>>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And
>>> while one
>>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think
>>> I'm going
>>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I
>>> presume your
>>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>>
>>
>> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his
>> worst
>> nightmare.
>>
>>
>
> So he's scared of flying, lots of people are.
>
>
He has a habit of claiming people are scared of flying. I'd take it
with a pinch of salt.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 10:43, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 23/01/2023 10:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23 Jan 2023 at 11:46:31 AM EET, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand
>>>>>> "NZeTA" for a
>>>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory
>>>>>> visitor tax of
>>>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever
>>>>>> experienced... But
>>>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you
>>>>> can't
>>>>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and
>>>>> enviroments.
>>>>
>>>> The appeal is a contract worth, conservatively, NZ$ 100 million. And
>>>> while one
>>>> can indeed find a few of them in Europe as well, I still don't think
>>>> I'm going
>>>> to let a 50 buck visa waiver fee be the reason to ignore that. I
>>>> presume your
>>>> attitude is why "Global Britain" is such a roaring success...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Neil Robertson is scared of flying, so travelling to NZ would be his
>>> worst
>>> nightmare.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So he's scared of flying, lots of people are.
>>
>>
> He has a habit of claiming people are scared of flying. I'd take it
> with a pinch of salt.
>

It was definitely true in Neil's case.

On 23/01/2023 11:48, Bob wrote:
> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.

What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.

--
Clive Page

On 23/01/2023 11:35, Bob wrote:
> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>
>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 14:22:05 on
>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>> <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri,
>>>>>>>> 20 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was
>>>>>>>> worth it,
>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as
>>>>>> name,
>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between
>>>>>> the UK
>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>
>>>>> to collect the fingerprints.  The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>
>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>
>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>
>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>
>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>
> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>

Well, I was asking if the above-listed non-EU states were Schengen
members or not. Did I leave any of them out?

I would assume that Vatican City, Monaco and San Marino are de facto
members?

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>
>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>
>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>
>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>
>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>
>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>
>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>
> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.

I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
runs down the middle of streets.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 09:46, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 06:42:16 -0000 (UTC)
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>>
>>>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>>>
>>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>>
>>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>>>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>>>
>>>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>>>> 332m people in one country
>>>>
>>>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>>>
>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>
>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>
>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>
>> Don't go then. I never saw the appeal of NZ - nothing there that you can't
>> find in europe. At least Aus can claim unique landscapes and enviroments.
>>
>
> Handy for sheep spotters.

And for kiwi, kakapo, weta and hobbit houses.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 23/01/2023 15:44, Clive Page wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 11:48, Bob wrote:
>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit,
>> the UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated
>> in those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open
>> border aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but
>> do not participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the
>> only one of the three for which that actually matters, as the other
>> two are entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I
>> suppose technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a
>> helicopter within the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that
>> France handles things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in
>> a private yacht from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>
> What's the status of Andorra?   Not in the EU, but you can't get there
> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain.   Last time
> I was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those
> visiting from France.   Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank
> of petrol.
>

I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same as Vatican City and San Marino.

How much lower is petrol per litre in Andorra than in France, I wonder?

I also wonder how often French customs stop cars that have crossed over
just to refill their tanks.

On 2023-01-23 15:54:06 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:

> On 23/01/2023 11:35, Bob wrote:
>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>
>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints.  The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>
>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>
>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>
>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>
>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>
>
> Well, I was asking if the above-listed non-EU states were Schengen
> members or not. Did I leave any of them out?
>
> I would assume that Vatican City, Monaco and San Marino are de facto members?

They aren't signatories, and don't participate in the various
background aspects like sharing police type data that is also part of
the Schengen agreement, but from a person travelling perspective, they
are in that neither has immigration procedures for entering from the
respective large country.

Robin

Am 23.01.2023 um 16:44 schrieb Clive Page:
> On 23/01/2023 11:48, Bob wrote:
>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit,
>> the UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated
>> in those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open
>> border aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but
>> do not participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the
>> only one of the three for which that actually matters, as the other
>> two are entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I
>> suppose technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a
>> helicopter within the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that
>> France handles things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in
>> a private yacht from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>
> What's the status of Andorra?   Not in the EU, but you can't get there
> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain.   Last time
> I was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those
> visiting from France.   Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank
> of petrol.

The German Wikipedia deals carefully with each of these special situations

<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengener_Abkommen#Liste_der_Teilnehmer_sowie_weitere_davon_betroffene_Gebiete>

Andorra seems to have border controls towards both her neighbours while
the other three micro-states do not (Liechtenstein has border controls
towards Austria but not Switzerland and has signed all
Schengen-agreements together with Switzerland).

Rolf

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:43:57 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:13:51 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>So he's scared of flying, lots of people are.
>>
>>Its one of the most common phobias IIRC. Though I can still force myself to do
>
>>short haul flights but I'm done with long haul now.
>
>Another common phobia seems to be the deep Tube. I've come across a number of
>people who avoid using deep Tube lines,
>and will take quite convoluted routes instead. But they will use the
>sub-surface, Moorgate or Elizabeth lines.

Claustrophobia and the tube in rush hour almost certainly don't mix. I don't
have it but there've been a few times stuck in the tunnel in a packed train
going nowhere for 5 mins that I've felt a bit twitchy.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:59:51 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>
>I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>runs down the middle of streets.

All these microstates just play at being countries anyway. When the proverbial
hits the fan the adults have to enter the room and take over. To whit when
the french fishermen started buggering about blockading the channel islands the
other year and the UK government stepped in with a navy boat. I imagine it
would be the same if any serious incident happened in Monaco.