On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:01:45 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>> citizens like Brits.
>>
>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>> citizens" fast-lane.
>
> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>
> There will soon be four categories of travellers entering the Schengen
> area:
>
> 1. Schengen passport holders
>
> 2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>
> 3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)
>
> 4. Those who need a visa.
>
> I'm interested in what difference there will be, if any, in the procedures
> for those in categories 2 and 3 once the new system comes into force.

For 2, there will be no change - they don't need to register, and they can
continue to pass through either passport control or eGates with a suitable
identity document.

Somewhat orthogonal to all this is a separate requirement that all states that
issue ID cards *should* issue Biometric ID cards, but this seems to be
endlessly delayed; Greece in particular seem peculiarly (or not...) attached
to issuing ID cards that could be trivially forged in any school print shop
with a laminator.

(Here in Romania the state is slowly starting the transition to biometric ID -
my new "beneficiary of the withdrawal agreement" identity card* follows the EU
biometric standard, and the government announced in January that by the end of
this year *all* newly issued identity cards will be biometric, with all
existing cards being replaced for free by 2030.)

Until the move to biometric ID is complete though, travelers in category 2 who
travel on non-biometric ID will still need to present at passport control; if
they have biometric ID though, they can use the eGates the same as passport
holders.

Note that for 2, the traveler is not checked against EES or ETIAS at all - it
is sufficient to check that the card is a valid EU identity document, and that
the document belongs to the holder, to wave them through.

* Interestingly, according to the Frontex FAQ, "Those UK nationals who are
beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement will be exempt from ETIAS: they can
not only reside on the territory of their EU host country, but also travel to
other Member States of the Schengen area for a short-stay without an ETIAS
travel authorisation." This is somewhat unexpected tbh; and I suspect that it
is a mistake - it is clear that beneficiaries resident *in a Schengen country*
will not be required to have an ETIAS, but my assumption was that as a
beneficiary in a non-Schengen country I would still require one to enter
Schengen. We will see, I guess...

For 3, the most noticeable change at the border will be the introduction of
EES, not ETIAS; it's the introduction of EES that will remove the need for
passport stamps and enable the use of eGates for visa-waiver travellers.

In theory, the introduction of EES could happen without ETIAS - but I suspect
EES will be relying on the fact that ETIAS introduces a known upper bound on
the size of database EES needs to maintain at any given time. ETIAS
effectively means EES never needs to 'see' a passport at the border that it
doesn't already know about from an ETIAS or full-visa application, which as a
software architect can potentially make the system much easier to build and
scale (simplistically, the 'real-time' at-the-border element essentially never
needs to insert a new record, only retrieve and update existing ones, and the
inserts can be inserted and indexed in batches from the ETIAS and visa
applications.)

In message <tqj52p$332de$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:45 on Sun, 22 Jan
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>
>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>
>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>
>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>> travellers.
>>>
>>> I think they'd still need
>>
>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>
>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>
>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>> citizens like Brits.
>>
>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>> citizens" fast-lane.
>
>It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>
>There will soon be four categories of travellers entering the Schengen
>area:
>
>1. Schengen passport holders
>
>2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>
>3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)

Careful, ETIAS is a visa-waiver; if we are visa-free there's nothing to
waive.

>4. Those who need a visa.
>
>I'm interested in what difference there will be, if any, in the procedures
>for those in categories 2 and 3 once the new system comes into force.

Does an EU citizen crossing a border from Non-Schengen to Schengen [eg
Romania to Hungary] currently need to do more than show a passport (or
ID card)?
--
Roland Perry

In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>valid for the duration of one short trip.

It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tqj1eb$32evv$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:59:39 on Sun, 22 Jan
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 22 Jan 2023 at 10:05:23 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <tqils8$30le3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:42:16 on Sun, 22 Jan
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd
>>>>>>probably still
>>>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new
>>>>>>ETIAS. I don't
>>>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them
>>>>>into one?
>>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>>
>>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>>>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>>>
>>>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>>>> 332m people in one country
>>>>
>>>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>>>
>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory
>>>visitor tax of
>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>
>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>
>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>
>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore the
>> war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only valid for
>> the duration of one short trip.
>
>It's not entirely clear to me what the relevance of visa pricing is to the
>cost of travel authorisations for *visa free* travel, one thing being almost,
>but not quite, entirely unlike the other;

Because both EU and US schemes are visa *Waivers*. There's no visa-free
travel as such (ie no need for either a Visa or a Visa-waiver).

>but rolling with it anyway - whether or not a tourist visa for Russia
>will cost more than £50 very much depends on your nationality. Russia
>has long applied a simple principle of reciprocity - i.e. they charge
>you the same as whatever your country charges Russians for a visa.
>
>So given that at the moment NZ citizens pay nothing for their visa-free travel
>to the EU, even on 'the Russian basis' that NZeTA is appalling value for
>money. (And indeed will continue to be once the much cheaper ETIAS is
>introduced.)

I'm not convinced that reciprocity (of cost) makes sense for Travel
Authorisations, because the cost of running the scheme will vary from
destination to destination.

In any event, Brits can't travel to NZ without a visa, but do have the
option of getting the visa waiver.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tqj52p$332de$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:01:45 on Sun, 22 Jan
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>
>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>> travellers.
>>>>
>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>
>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>
>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>
>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>
>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>
>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>
>> There will soon be four categories of travellers entering the Schengen
>> area:
>>
>> 1. Schengen passport holders
>>
>> 2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>>
>> 3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)
>
> Careful, ETIAS is a visa-waiver; if we are visa-free there's nothing to
> waive.
>
Who says it is a visa waiver? Not the EU (* mine)

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/smart-borders/european-travel-information-authorisation-system_en

ETIAS will be a largely automated IT system created to identify security,
irregular migration or high epidemic risks posed by *visa-exempt* visitors
travelling to the Schengen States, whilst at the same time facilitate
crossing borders for the vast majority of travellers who do not pose such
risks. Non-EU nationals who do not need a visa to travel to the Schengen
area will have to apply for a travel authorisation through the ETIAS system
prior to their trip. The information gathered via ETIAS will allow, in full
respect of fundamental rights and data protection principles, for advance
verification of potential security, irregular migration of high epidemic
risks.

(Now expecting Roland to argue that visa exempt really means a visa
waiver…..)

On 21/01/2023 17:55, Bob wrote:
> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>
>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>
>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>
>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>
>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>
>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>> travellers.
>>
>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints.  The real test would
>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>
> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European countries using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so Irish passport holders are exempt.  It looks like the EES countries are all of Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the Schengen zone).  For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a participant in the EES.
>
> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>
> Robin
>

I wonder how they are going to collect fingerprints from UK passport-holders who drive or walk across the border form Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic?

--
Clive Page

In message <042cnQBTP7x0klD-nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
10:28:56 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>
>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>17th Jan.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>
>It doesn't says it is a surprise.

The Times article is written in a style that clearly indicates they
think sufficient of their readers will be surprised by not just the
scheme itself, but the potential disruption.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tqj7bd$33blt$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:40:29 on Sun, 22 Jan
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 22/01/2023 08:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tqhtn3$2q1ni$5@dont-email.me>, at 23:49:55 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in
>>>>>another EU
>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and
>>>>>leaves the Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So
>>>>>we'd probably still have the new fingerprinting requirement and
>>>>>have our passports checked by the machines, but wouldn't have
>>>>>needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't think we'd have needed
>>>>>to have our passports stamped, as we currently do, but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them
>>>>into one?

>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>
>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>>> and 70,

>> Are older and younger free of charge, or banned from the scheme?
>
>Free, as 1 minutes googling showed

Or ten seconds of typing by the person making the earlier non-exhaustive
statement.

Or zero had it been drafted: "free for travellers under 18 and over 70"
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tqj1eb$32evv$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:59:39 on Sun, 22 Jan
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 10:05:23 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tqils8$30le3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:42:16 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd
>>>>>>> probably still
>>>>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>>>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new
>>>>>>> ETIAS. I don't
>>>>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>>>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them
>>>>>> into one?
>>>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>>>
>>>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>>>>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>>>>
>>>>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>>>>> 332m people in one country
>>>>>
>>>>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory
>>>> visitor tax of
>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>
>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>
>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>
>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore the
>>> war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only valid for
>>> the duration of one short trip.
>>
>> It's not entirely clear to me what the relevance of visa pricing is to the
>> cost of travel authorisations for *visa free* travel, one thing being almost,
>> but not quite, entirely unlike the other;
>
> Because both EU and US schemes are visa *Waivers*. There's no visa-free
> travel as such (ie no need for either a Visa or a Visa-waiver).
>
>> but rolling with it anyway - whether or not a tourist visa for Russia
>> will cost more than £50 very much depends on your nationality. Russia
>> has long applied a simple principle of reciprocity - i.e. they charge
>> you the same as whatever your country charges Russians for a visa.
>>
>> So given that at the moment NZ citizens pay nothing for their visa-free travel
>> to the EU, even on 'the Russian basis' that NZeTA is appalling value for
>> money. (And indeed will continue to be once the much cheaper ETIAS is
>> introduced.)
>
> I'm not convinced that reciprocity (of cost) makes sense for Travel
> Authorisations, because the cost of running the scheme will vary from
> destination to destination.
>
> In any event, Brits can't travel to NZ without a visa,

We certainly used to be able to until recently.

> but do have the option of getting the visa waiver.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 21/01/2023 17:55, Bob wrote:
>> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>
>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>
>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>
>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>> travellers.
>>>
>>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints.  The real test would
>>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>
>> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European countries
>> using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so Irish
>> passport holders are exempt.  It looks like the EES countries are all of
>> Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the Schengen
>> zone).  For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the general
>> information page on the same site lists Croatia as a participant in the EES.
>>
>> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>>
>> Robin
>>
>
> I wonder how they are going to collect fingerprints from UK
> passport-holders who drive or walk across the border form Northern
> Ireland to the Irish Republic?

They don't need to. That's not a Schengen border.

Ireland and the UK remain in the CTA and outside Schengen, just as they
were before Brexit.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:01:45 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>
>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>
>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>
>> There will soon be four categories of travellers entering the Schengen
>> area:
>>
>> 1. Schengen passport holders
>>
>> 2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>>
>> 3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)
>>
>> 4. Those who need a visa.
>>
>> I'm interested in what difference there will be, if any, in the procedures
>> for those in categories 2 and 3 once the new system comes into force.
>
> For 2, there will be no change - they don't need to register, and they can
> continue to pass through either passport control or eGates with a suitable
> identity document.
>
> Somewhat orthogonal to all this is a separate requirement that all states that
> issue ID cards *should* issue Biometric ID cards, but this seems to be
> endlessly delayed; Greece in particular seem peculiarly (or not...) attached
> to issuing ID cards that could be trivially forged in any school print shop
> with a laminator.
>
> (Here in Romania the state is slowly starting the transition to biometric ID -
> my new "beneficiary of the withdrawal agreement" identity card* follows the EU
> biometric standard, and the government announced in January that by the end of
> this year *all* newly issued identity cards will be biometric, with all
> existing cards being replaced for free by 2030.)
>
> Until the move to biometric ID is complete though, travelers in category 2 who
> travel on non-biometric ID will still need to present at passport control; if
> they have biometric ID though, they can use the eGates the same as passport
> holders.
>
> Note that for 2, the traveler is not checked against EES or ETIAS at all - it
> is sufficient to check that the card is a valid EU identity document, and that
> the document belongs to the holder, to wave them through.
>
>
> * Interestingly, according to the Frontex FAQ, "Those UK nationals who are
> beneficiaries of the Withdrawal Agreement will be exempt from ETIAS: they can
> not only reside on the territory of their EU host country, but also travel to
> other Member States of the Schengen area for a short-stay without an ETIAS
> travel authorisation." This is somewhat unexpected tbh; and I suspect that it
> is a mistake - it is clear that beneficiaries resident *in a Schengen country*
> will not be required to have an ETIAS, but my assumption was that as a
> beneficiary in a non-Schengen country I would still require one to enter
> Schengen. We will see, I guess...
>
>
>
>
> For 3, the most noticeable change at the border will be the introduction of
> EES, not ETIAS; it's the introduction of EES that will remove the need for
> passport stamps and enable the use of eGates for visa-waiver travellers.

Which gets back to my question: will there be any difference in the border
formalities between category 2 and 3 passport holders once EES and ETIAS
are in force? Won't both categories (and category 1) go though the same
eGates, using the same procedures?

>
> In theory, the introduction of EES could happen without ETIAS - but I suspect
> EES will be relying on the fact that ETIAS introduces a known upper bound on
> the size of database EES needs to maintain at any given time. ETIAS
> effectively means EES never needs to 'see' a passport at the border that it
> doesn't already know about from an ETIAS or full-visa application, which as a
> software architect can potentially make the system much easier to build and
> scale (simplistically, the 'real-time' at-the-border element essentially never
> needs to insert a new record, only retrieve and update existing ones, and the
> inserts can be inserted and indexed in batches from the ETIAS and visa
> applications.)
>

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 21/01/2023 17:55, Bob wrote:
>> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>
>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>
>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>
>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>> travellers.
>>>
>>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints.  The real test would
>>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>
>> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European countries
>> using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so Irish
>> passport holders are exempt.  It looks like the EES countries are all of
>> Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the Schengen
>> zone).  For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the general
>> information page on the same site lists Croatia as a participant in the EES.
>>
>> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>>
>> Robin
>>
>
> I wonder how they are going to collect fingerprints from UK
> passport-holders who drive or walk across the border form Northern
> Ireland to the Irish Republic?
>
>

They won’t. The Republic isn’t in Schengen and is in the Common Travel
Area.

On 2023-01-22 12:09:57 +0000, Clive Page said:

> On 21/01/2023 17:55, Bob wrote:
>> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>
>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>
>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>
>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>> travellers.
>>>
>>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints.  The real test would
>>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>
>> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European
>> countries using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so
>> Irish passport holders are exempt.  It looks like the EES countries are
>> all of Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the
>> Schengen zone).  For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the
>> general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a
>> participant in the EES.
>>
>> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>>
>> Robin
>>
>
> I wonder how they are going to collect fingerprints from UK
> passport-holders who drive or walk across the border form Northern
> Ireland to the Irish Republic?

Ireland is not a participant in the EES scheme, so these rules don't
apply there.

Robin

On 22 Jan 2023 at 2:16:38 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> I'm not convinced that reciprocity (of cost) makes sense for Travel
>> Authorisations, because the cost of running the scheme will vary from
>> destination to destination.
>>
>> In any event, Brits can't travel to NZ without a visa,
>
> We certainly used to be able to until recently.

It's just Roland being Roland... Per the NZ Govt Immigration site, "[UK
visitors] can travel to New Zealand without a visa if they get an NZeTA".
Equally, elsewhere on their own site it appears under the visas section, so it
is fair to say colloquially visa-waivers and visas are in the same basket of
"things that let me cross a border".

An eTA (or ETIAS, or Visa Waiver) is *not* a visa though. The distinction of
course only really comes into effect in the breach - for example, when a
government wants to deport someone with a visa they normally need to go
through lengthy bureacratic processes showing grounds to cancel that visa,
whereas a traveller on a visa waiver can be shipped out much more easily
(specifically by simply saying "your visa waiver privilege is now revoked, and
since you don't have a visa off you go.") A visa waiver also does not qualify
as a visa (because, well, it isn't one) for other processes where the holder
might require a visa to qualify (e.g. applying for residency or whatever.)

But, most of the time, you /could/ consider a visa waiver as just a "special
visa that is free". What benefit it gains to do so is a mystery, unless it's
to construct a mess of contradictory statements into some kind of argument
nobody was having, and then declare "aha, I won" when everyone else just gives
up debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I have no idea who
would get their kicks like that, though.

On 22 Jan 2023 at 2:21:12 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> 2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>>>
>>> 3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)
>>>
>>
>> For 3, the most noticeable change at the border will be the introduction of
>> EES, not ETIAS; it's the introduction of EES that will remove the need for
>> passport stamps and enable the use of eGates for visa-waiver travellers.
>
> Which gets back to my question: will there be any difference in the border
> formalities between category 2 and 3 passport holders once EES and ETIAS
> are in force? Won't both categories (and category 1) go though the same
> eGates, using the same procedures?

At the border, correct, the procedure /as a traveller/ will be the same.
Behind the scenes there is a difference - passengers in category (2) are just
checked for valid ID, whereas passengers in category (3) get a further check
in ETIAS and their date/time of entry recorded in EES - but provided there are
no discrepancies detected by those checks (eg. missing ETIAS record, or
determination of overstay by EES) it will appear identical.

Passengers in (3) currently needing to go to passport desks was never a matter
of post-Brexit spite, it's a simple case of the technology to simplify the
procedure isn't deployed yet. And while it is arguable that maybe some special
solution could have been cooked up just for the UK, it doubtless seemed
pointless given that the introduction of EES/ETIAS has been planned for more
than a decade to solve exactly this problem for everyone, not just UK
travellers. As soon as it's in, crossing the border as a visa-waiver traveller
should be as simple as it is for an EU citizen (just with the added wrinkle of
needing to register online first.)

Amusing though it is to wind up ruddy-faced acolytes of Farage, I don't think
there are any EU countries that are actually sufficiently petty that they want
to employ more border guards than they need to just for that purpose. Well,
maybe France I suppose...

On 2023-01-21 22:16:15 +0000, Recliner said:

> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>
>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>
>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>
>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>> travellers.
>>>
>>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints. The real test would
>>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>
>> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European
>> countries using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so
>> Irish passport holders are exempt. It looks like the EES countries are
>> all of Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the
>> Schengen zone). For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the
>> general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a
>> participant in the EES.
>>
>> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>>
>
> I don't think that answers the question of what the procedures will be for
> Irish citizens at the Eurostar border when the new system comes in. I
> assume they'll go through the same ePassport gates as Schengen and UK
> citizens? Will their fingerprints be checked? Of course, they won't need
> an ETIAS, and the 90 day rule won't apply to them.
>
> And who will need to use the manned desks?

The fingerprint checking is part of the EES process, and the above link
is clear that Irish citizens are not required to do that. The EES is
designed to automate the process of handling the 90 day rule. As EU
citizens, not subject to the 90 day rule, Irish citizens along with
French, German, Belgian etc will not have to have their fingerprints
checked.

Exactly how the physical equipment works is yet to be seen, there are a
couple of options. One would be to have separate EU/EEA/CH and 3rd
country gates, an alternative would be for the same gates to be used by
everyone (with a compatible passport), and when a person not subject to
EES is detected, that part of the process simply doesn't happen (ie the
fingerprint scanner is not activated).

There will need to be some manned desks to handle cases where the
electronic systems don't work (last time I took Eurostar the gates
failed to work and I had to go to the manned desk), and there will be
some travellers with passports that won't work with the electronic
gates (eg citizens of countries whose passports don't work with the
relevant systems).

Robin

On 2023-01-22 12:45:55 +0000, Clank said:

> On 22 Jan 2023 at 2:21:12 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> 2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>>>>
>>>> 3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)
>>>>
>>>
>>> For 3, the most noticeable change at the border will be the introduction of
>>> EES, not ETIAS; it's the introduction of EES that will remove the need for
>>> passport stamps and enable the use of eGates for visa-waiver travellers.
>>
>> Which gets back to my question: will there be any difference in the border
>> formalities between category 2 and 3 passport holders once EES and ETIAS
>> are in force? Won't both categories (and category 1) go though the same
>> eGates, using the same procedures?
>
> At the border, correct, the procedure /as a traveller/ will be the same.
> Behind the scenes there is a difference - passengers in category (2) are just
> checked for valid ID, whereas passengers in category (3) get a further check
> in ETIAS and their date/time of entry recorded in EES - but provided there are
> no discrepancies detected by those checks (eg. missing ETIAS record, or
> determination of overstay by EES) it will appear identical.

My understanding is category 3 travellers will be subject to a
fingerprint scan while category 2 ones will not.

Robin

On 22/01/2023 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tqj1eb$32evv$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:59:39 on Sun, 22 Jan
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 10:05:23 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tqils8$30le3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:42:16 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner"
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in
>>>>>>> another EU
>>>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and
>>>>>>> leaves the
>>>>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd
>>>>>>> probably still
>>>>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports
>>>>>>> checked by
>>>>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new
>>>>>>> ETIAS. I don't
>>>>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we
>>>>>>> currently do,
>>>>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them
>>>>>> into one?
>>>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>>>
>>>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers
>>>>> between 18
>>>>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>>>>
>>>>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free
>>>>> access to
>>>>> 332m people in one country
>>>>>
>>>>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA"
>>>> for a
>>>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory
>>>> visitor tax of
>>>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>>>
>>>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>>>
>>>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever
>>>> experienced... But
>>>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>>>
>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore the
>>> war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only valid for
>>> the duration of one short trip.
>>
>> It's not entirely clear to me what the relevance of visa pricing is to
>> the
>> cost of travel authorisations for *visa free* travel, one thing being
>> almost,
>> but not quite, entirely unlike the other;
>
> Because both EU and US schemes are visa *Waivers*. There's no visa-free
> travel as such (ie no need for either a Visa or a Visa-waiver).
>
>> but rolling with it anyway - whether or not a tourist visa for Russia
>> will cost more than £50 very much depends on your nationality. Russia
>> has long applied a simple principle of reciprocity - i.e. they charge
>> you the same as whatever your country charges Russians for a visa.
>>
>> So given that at the moment NZ citizens pay nothing for their
>> visa-free travel
>> to the EU, even on 'the Russian basis' that NZeTA is appalling value for
>> money. (And indeed will continue to be once the much cheaper ETIAS is
>> introduced.)
>
> I'm not convinced that reciprocity (of cost) makes sense for Travel
> Authorisations, because the cost of running the scheme will vary from
> destination to destination.

It's not supposed to make sense, it's a political tantrum.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22 Jan 2023 at 2:55:07 PM EET, "Bob" <email@domain.com> wrote:

> On 2023-01-22 12:45:55 +0000, Clank said:
>
>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 2:21:12 PM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For 3, the most noticeable change at the border will be the introduction of
>>>> EES, not ETIAS; it's the introduction of EES that will remove the need for
>>>> passport stamps and enable the use of eGates for visa-waiver travellers.
>>>
>>> Which gets back to my question: will there be any difference in the border
>>> formalities between category 2 and 3 passport holders once EES and ETIAS
>>> are in force? Won't both categories (and category 1) go though the same
>>> eGates, using the same procedures?
>>
>> At the border, correct, the procedure /as a traveller/ will be the same.
>> Behind the scenes there is a difference - passengers in category (2) are just
>> checked for valid ID, whereas passengers in category (3) get a further check
>> in ETIAS and their date/time of entry recorded in EES - but provided there are
>> no discrepancies detected by those checks (eg. missing ETIAS record, or
>> determination of overstay by EES) it will appear identical.
>
> My understanding is category 3 travellers will be subject to a
> fingerprint scan while category 2 ones will not.

Oh, good point, I'd forgotten entirely about the fingerprint thing. That said,
I would assume the eGates will also have fingerprint scanners, and it's not
entirely impossible that they could be required for people in (2) travelling
on an ID card - the EU biometric ID format includes fingerprints (one reason
why replacing all the existing IDs is a bit of a palaver - you need to enrol
the fingerprints to issue the new format ID cards.)

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2023-01-21 22:16:15 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>
>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>> travellers.
>>>>
>>>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints. The real test would
>>>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>
>>> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European
>>> countries using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so
>>> Irish passport holders are exempt. It looks like the EES countries are
>>> all of Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the
>>> Schengen zone). For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the
>>> general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a
>>> participant in the EES.
>>>
>>> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>>>
>>
>> I don't think that answers the question of what the procedures will be for
>> Irish citizens at the Eurostar border when the new system comes in. I
>> assume they'll go through the same ePassport gates as Schengen and UK
>> citizens? Will their fingerprints be checked? Of course, they won't need
>> an ETIAS, and the 90 day rule won't apply to them.
>>
>> And who will need to use the manned desks?
>
> The fingerprint checking is part of the EES process, and the above link
> is clear that Irish citizens are not required to do that. The EES is
> designed to automate the process of handling the 90 day rule. As EU
> citizens, not subject to the 90 day rule, Irish citizens along with
> French, German, Belgian etc will not have to have their fingerprints
> checked.
>
> Exactly how the physical equipment works is yet to be seen, there are a
> couple of options. One would be to have separate EU/EEA/CH and 3rd
> country gates, an alternative would be for the same gates to be used by
> everyone (with a compatible passport), and when a person not subject to
> EES is detected, that part of the process simply doesn't happen (ie the
> fingerprint scanner is not activated).
>
> There will need to be some manned desks to handle cases where the
> electronic systems don't work (last time I took Eurostar the gates
> failed to work and I had to go to the manned desk), and there will be
> some travellers with passports that won't work with the electronic
> gates (eg citizens of countries whose passports don't work with the
> relevant systems).
>
> Robin
>
>

I don’t quite follow the need for a finger print. The passport is the
identifier that should be used to count how many days you’ve been in
Schengen. If there are worries about the passport belonging to the person
presenting it doesn’t that equally apply to Schengen passport holders?

On 22/01/2023 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <042cnQBTP7x0klD-nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 10:28:56 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>
>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>> 17th  Jan.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>  I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>
>> It doesn't says it is a surprise.
>
> The Times article is written in a style that clearly indicates they
> think sufficient of their readers will be surprised by not just the
> scheme itself, but the potential disruption.

They could be right, it still comes as a surprise to Times readers that
what they voted for actually happened.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/01/2023 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <042cnQBTP7x0klD-nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 10:28:56 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>> 17th  Jan.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>  I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>
>>> It doesn't says it is a surprise.
>>
>> The Times article is written in a style that clearly indicates they
>> think sufficient of their readers will be surprised by not just the
>> scheme itself, but the potential disruption.
>
> They could be right, it still comes as a surprise to Times readers that
> what they voted for actually happened.
>

Times readers should not be confused with Daily Telegraph readers.

On 22/01/2023 13:11, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/01/2023 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <042cnQBTP7x0klD-nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 10:28:56 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>> 17th  Jan.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>  I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't says it is a surprise.
>>>
>>> The Times article is written in a style that clearly indicates they
>>> think sufficient of their readers will be surprised by not just the
>>> scheme itself, but the potential disruption.
>>
>> They could be right, it still comes as a surprise to Times readers that
>> what they voted for actually happened.
>>
>
> Times readers should not be confused with Daily Telegraph readers.
>

Telegraph readers deny that what they voted for is what happened.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22 Jan 2023 at 3:03:52 PM EET, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don’t quite follow the need for a finger print. The passport is the
> identifier that should be used to count how many days you’ve been in
> Schengen. If there are worries about the passport belonging to the person
> presenting it doesn’t that equally apply to Schengen passport holders?

It does. Which is why it's been mandatory for all EU issued passports to
include fingerprint data for a while now (and indeed why the new biometric ID
cards also include fingerprint data.)

On 22/01/2023 13:04, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 22/01/2023 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <042cnQBTP7x0klD-nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 10:28:56 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20
>>>> Jan 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>> 17th  Jan.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>  I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>
>>> It doesn't says it is a surprise.
>>
>> The Times article is written in a style that clearly indicates they
>> think sufficient of their readers will be surprised by not just the
>> scheme itself, but the potential disruption.
>
> They could be right, it still comes as a surprise to Times readers that
> what they voted for actually happened.
>
They're also surprised what it actually meant.