In message <tqt8rd$1394e$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:25 on Thu, 26 Jan
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 24/01/2023 09:00, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>
>>> Rolf 'When will UK national ID cards be introduced? SNCR'
>>
>> When Germans cross the road on a red man...
>>
>
>It is happening by stealth. At the next elections you need official photo
>ID to vote (passport, driving licence, bus pass etc). Those that don’t have
>any of this need to apply for a voter ID card.

Which is in effect a bus pass without the travel concession (same
issuing process).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:47:35 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/01/2023 14:23, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2023 13:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>>>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>>>>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>>>>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>>>>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>>>>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>>>>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>>>>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>>>>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>>>>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>>>>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>>>>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>>>>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>>>>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>>>>>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>>>>>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
>>>>> secure the border with Italy.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
>>>> Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
>>>> that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But well marked and even has a fence.
>>>
>>
>> True but if you wanted to secure it and apply border controls, it would be
>> rather intrusive.
>>
>
>Hence "Technically possible",I can't think of any circumstances of it
>being a realistic or practical requirement. Mind you on major occasions,
>such as Easter or the death of a pope, something like it happens just to
>control the crowds.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:22:02 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27/01/2023 12:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:01:22 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there
>>>> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I
>>>> was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting
>>>> from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.
>>>>
>>>
>>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra–European_Union_relations>
>explains
>>> everything.
>>>
>>> Andorra is:
>>> In the eurozone
>>> Not in the EU
>>> Not in Schengen
>>> In *a* customs union with the EU, but not *the* Customs Union
>>> Not in the Single Market
>>> Not in the EEA or EFTA
>>> Has a number of other agreements with the EU, France and Spain.
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the Schengen
>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>
>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>interesting.
>>
>
>Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.

Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
customs union either.

On 27/01/2023 15:08, Recliner wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:47:35 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 27/01/2023 14:23, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2023 13:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>>>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>>>>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>>>>>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>>>>>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>>>>>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>>>>>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>>>>>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>>>>>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>>>>>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>>>>>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>>>>>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>>>>>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>>>>>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>>>>>>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>>>>>>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
>>>>>> secure the border with Italy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
>>>>> Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
>>>>> that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But well marked and even has a fence.
>>>>
>>>
>>> True but if you wanted to secure it and apply border controls, it would be
>>> rather intrusive.
>>>
>>
>> Hence "Technically possible",I can't think of any circumstances of it
>> being a realistic or practical requirement. Mind you on major occasions,
>> such as Easter or the death of a pope, something like it happens just to
>> control the crowds.
>
> There are routinely quite strict security controls if you are visiting the non-public parts of the Vatican City. You
> may, for example, have to surrender your passport for the duration of your visit.

On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:22:02 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2023 12:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:01:22 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>> What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there
>>>>> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I
>>>>> was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting
>>>>> from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra–European_Union_relations>
>> explains
>>>> everything.
>>>>
>>>> Andorra is:
>>>> In the eurozone
>>>> Not in the EU
>>>> Not in Schengen
>>>> In *a* customs union with the EU, but not *the* Customs Union
>>>> Not in the Single Market
>>>> Not in the EEA or EFTA
>>>> Has a number of other agreements with the EU, France and Spain.
>>>>
>>>> <quote>
>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the Schengen
>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>
>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>> interesting.
>>>
>>
>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>
> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
> customs union either.
>

They're not in the United Kingdom either.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tqmlgo$3o3n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:40 on Mon, 23 Jan
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>
>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>>>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>
>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>
>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>
> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to coping with
> 600 by next Xmas.
>
> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20 at a time.

Some people might decide to group them in folders.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:35:51 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/01/2023 15:08, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:47:35 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2023 14:23, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2023 13:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>>>>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>>>>>>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>>>>>>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>>>>>>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>>>>>>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>>>>>>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>>>>>>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>>>>>>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>>>>>>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>>>>>>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>>>>>>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>>>>>>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>>>>>>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>>>>>>>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>>>>>>>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
>>>>>>> secure the border with Italy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
>>>>>> Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
>>>>>> that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But well marked and even has a fence.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True but if you wanted to secure it and apply border controls, it would be
>>>> rather intrusive.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hence "Technically possible",I can't think of any circumstances of it
>>> being a realistic or practical requirement. Mind you on major occasions,
>>> such as Easter or the death of a pope, something like it happens just to
>>> control the crowds.
>>
>> There are routinely quite strict security controls if you are visiting the non-public parts of the Vatican City. You
>> may, for example, have to surrender your passport for the duration of your visit.
>
>That's new to me, but then I last visited the Vatican in 1988 so before
>all the terrorist problems.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> <quote>
>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>Schengen
>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>
>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
>
>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>> interesting.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>
>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>> customs union either.
>>
>
>They're not in the United Kingdom either.

And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.

Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.

In message <tr0uv3$1p46h$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:15 on Fri, 27 Jan
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tqmlgo$3o3n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:40 on Mon, 23 Jan
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>>
>>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use
>>>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or
>>>>>different foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>>
>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>
>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>
>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to coping with
>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>
>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20 at a time.
>
>Some people might decide to group them in folders.

I have some in folders when they are tight-knit groups (such as
car-parking-fee apps). But it's not always obvious how to build a
hierarchy.

So for example do you put Google Maps in a Google folder, or a Maps
folder.

I also note that when apps auto-update they end up on the main screen.
Which means you are constantly "putting them back in their box".
--
Roland Perry

On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>> Schengen
>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>
>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
>>
>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>> interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>
>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>> customs union either.
>>>
>>
>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>
> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.

>
> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>

Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 27/01/2023 16:53, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tr0uv3$1p46h$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:15 on Fri, 27 Jan
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqmlgo$3o3n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:40 on Mon, 23 Jan
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis
>>>>>>> <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's
>>>>>>>>> ignore
>>>>>>>>> the  war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>>>> valid for  the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for
>>>>>>> Russia
>>>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell
>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use
>>>>>>  phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or
>>>>>> different  foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>>
>>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>>
>>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to coping with
>>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>>
>>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20 at a time.
>>
>> Some people might decide to group them in folders.
>
> I have some in folders when they are tight-knit groups (such as
> car-parking-fee apps). But it's not always obvious how to build a
> hierarchy.
>
> So for example do you put Google Maps in a Google folder, or a Maps folder.

What works better for you?

>
> I also note that when apps auto-update they end up on the main screen.
> Which means you are constantly "putting them back in their box".

An Android idiosyncrasy presumably.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>
>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>> Schengen
>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>EU
>>>
>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>> customs union either.
>>>>
>>>
>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>
>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.

Feel like expanding on that?

>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>
>
>Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.

Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tr0uv3$1p46h$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:15 on Fri, 27 Jan
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqmlgo$3o3n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:40 on Mon, 23 Jan
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use
>>>>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or
>>>>>> different foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>>
>>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>>
>>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to coping with
>>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>>
>>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20 at a time.
>>
>> Some people might decide to group them in folders.
>
> I have some in folders when they are tight-knit groups (such as
> car-parking-fee apps). But it's not always obvious how to build a
> hierarchy.
>
> So for example do you put Google Maps in a Google folder, or a Maps
> folder.

Decisions, decisions!

> I also note that when apps auto-update they end up on the main screen.
> Which means you are constantly "putting them back in their box".

I hadn’t noticed that, but I don’t have enough apps to need the feature.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>
>>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>>> Schengen
>>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>> EU
>>>>
>>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>>> customs union either.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>>
>>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>> While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.
>
> Feel like expanding on that?
>
>>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.
>
> Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
> comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.

Scottish banknotes are sterling[*]; I don’t know about CI.

[*] Unless they’re on a washing line somewhere in Central Scotland.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 27/01/2023 17:15, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>
>>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>>> Schengen
>>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>> EU
>>>>
>>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>>> customs union either.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>>
>>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>> While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.
>
> Feel like expanding on that?

Freedom of movement and work in EU. Steady supply of seasonal workers
for the hospitality industry, second biggest earner. They didn't need to
be in the customs union as there is little in the way of import taxes in
the islands and, apart from tomatoes and potatoes, they don't export a
lot either.

>
>>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.
>
> Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
> comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.
>

So, we print our own comedy banknotes (at least I think we still do,
they may be printed in Poland now).

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>>
>>>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>>>> Schengen
>>>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>>> EU
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>>>> customs union either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>>>
>>>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>>> While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.
>>
>> Feel like expanding on that?
>>
>>>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>>>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>>>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.
>>
>> Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
>> comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.
>
> Scottish banknotes are sterling[*]; I don’t know about CI.
>
> [*] Unless they’re on a washing line somewhere in Central Scotland.
>
> Sam
>
>
Yup, the £5 Clydesdale bank note in my wallet bears the word sterling. My
£1 Guernsey note does not.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>>>>> Schengen
>>>>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>>>> EU
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>>>>> customs union either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>>>>
>>>>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>>>> While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.
>>>
>>> Feel like expanding on that?
>>>
>>>>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>>>>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>>>>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.
>>>
>>> Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
>>> comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.
>>
>> Scottish banknotes are sterling[*]; I don’t know about CI.
>>
>> [*] Unless they’re on a washing line somewhere in Central Scotland.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
> Yup, the £5 Clydesdale bank note in my wallet bears the word sterling. My
> £1 Guernsey note does not.

I think they're linked to sterling, but not directly to the BoE in the way
that Scottish and Ulster notes are.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:46:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tqt8rd$1394e$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:25 on Thu, 26 Jan
>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 24/01/2023 09:00, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rolf 'When will UK national ID cards be introduced? SNCR'
>>>
>>> When Germans cross the road on a red man...
>>>
>>
>>It is happening by stealth. At the next elections you need official photo
>>ID to vote (passport, driving licence, bus pass etc). Those that don’t have
>>any of this need to apply for a voter ID card.
>
>Which is in effect a bus pass without the travel concession (same
>issuing process).
>
Ausweis, bitte?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:46:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <tqt8rd$1394e$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:25 on Thu, 26 Jan
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 24/01/2023 09:00, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Rolf 'When will UK national ID cards be introduced? SNCR'
>>>>
>>>> When Germans cross the road on a red man...
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is happening by stealth. At the next elections you need official photo
>>> ID to vote (passport, driving licence, bus pass etc). Those that don’t have
>>> any of this need to apply for a voter ID card.
>>
>> Which is in effect a bus pass without the travel concession (same
>> issuing process).
>>
> Ausweis, bitte?
>

Happened to me on a German bus 40ish years ago when I worked there. Some
rather uppity ticket inspectors. Naturally, being a Brit I refused. They
got more uppity and called the police. The latter ended up giving the
ticket inspectors a dressing down.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:15:36 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>
>>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>>> Schengen
>>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>>EU
>>>>
>>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>>> customs union either.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>>
>>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>>While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.
>
>Feel like expanding on that?
>
>>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>>
>>
>>Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.
>
>Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
>comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.
>
Scottish banknotes are issued by the banks not by the Scottish
Government. How is e.g. a Jersey banknote "comedy" when a BoE note is
not ? They both have the same monarchs on them.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tqmlgo$3o3n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:40 on Mon, 23 Jan
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>>
>>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>>>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>>>>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>>
>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>
>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>
>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to coping with
>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>
>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20 at a time.
>
> Some people might decide to group them in folders.
>

Or use a search function. Sure, for some more obscure apps it might be a
problem to remember the name, but for google translate or the iOS
translation app, typing "tra" into the search box instantly brings them
both up.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:47:43 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:08:54 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 16:36:58 +0000
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 27/01/2023 16:04, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <quote>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>>>>>>>>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>>>>>>>>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>>>>>>>>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the
>>>>>>> Schengen
>>>>>>>>>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>>>>>>>>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the
>>>>> EU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm,
>>>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
>>>>>>>>> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
>>>>>>>>> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
>>>>>>>>> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ditto the channel islands except they're not and never have been in the
>>>>>>>> customs union either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're not in the United Kingdom either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And? They've done ok outside the EU all these years.
>>>>> While deriving all the advantages of the UK being in the EU.
>>>>
>>>> Feel like expanding on that?
>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, while not officially part of the UK they're pretty much in the same
>>>>>> boat as Scotland. ie The UK government runs the big stuff such as foreign
>>>>>> affairs and defense while the toytown government deals with local trivia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Absolutely no comparison with Scotland.
>>>>
>>>> Apart from all the obvious similarities. They even both print their own
>>>> comedy banknotes pegged to stirling.
>>>
>>> Scottish banknotes are sterling[*]; I don’t know about CI.
>>>
>>> [*] Unless they’re on a washing line somewhere in Central Scotland.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>>
>> Yup, the £5 Clydesdale bank note in my wallet bears the word sterling. My
>> £1 Guernsey note does not.
>
>I think they're linked to sterling, but not directly to the BoE in the way
>that Scottish and Ulster notes are.
>
Value tied to Sterling since 1921.
https://history.gg/guernsey-adopts-sterling-currency/

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:05:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tqp4a9$7rc7$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:25:30 on Tue, 24 Jan
>2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>On 24 Jan 2023 at 10:12:40 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 00:41:52 +0000, "<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk>"
>>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/01/2023 21:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> The trouble with unwanted new apps is the storage on the 'phone might
>>>>>> not be able to keep up with them if you get too many of them. My
>>>>>> 'phone has more than the basic storage but e.g. I have had to dump 2
>>>>>> out of 4 different parking apps to stop them and other apps
>>>>>> constipating it.
>>>>>
>>>>> iPhone will offload some apps that have not seen use in a while.
>>>>
>>>> Android (in my experience) will *suggest* the user might consider
>>>> removing/unenabling same
>>>>
>>>
>>> And phones come with lot more storage these days than they used to. The
>>> space taken by apps really mattered when phones only had 16GB, but few
>>> phones come with less than 64GB these days, and 128GB is common now, even
>>> on budget phones. So, having a couple of GB of apps hardly matters any
>>> more.
>>
>>Indeed. I have a hundreds of apps on my phone, and while they do all add up to
>>about 50GB, it's not the travel apps that are consuming all the space - it's
>>the likes of Netflix, Spotify, Audible, and (somewhat deranged, but I guess
>>I've never cleared its download cache - 1.83GB!) The Times that occupy the top
>>positions.
>
>That sounds like it's the data for those apps which is using the
>storage, not the app itself.
>
Browser caches can collect a fair amount of waste that occasionally
needs clearing out.

>My concern is more about the needle-in-a-haystack dozens of panes on the
>home screen.
>
>>I was actually an 'early adopter', as one correspondent might say, of pkpass
>>ticketing, and in the past made fairly heavy use of passwallet.
>
>I was an early adopter of the apps, but have struggled to find any
>vendors to push me tickets in those formats.
>
>>But these days I don't bother much, I much prefer to just use the
>>dedicated operator apps.
>
>They can be better at pushing the tickets with the user having to jump
>through hoops, but relies on being able to remember which vendor was
>used for which tickets. Plus of course the registration/username/
>password bloat to set each one up.
>
>>Having all my tickets in one place is actually quite confusing when there's a
>>lot of them, and the dedicated apps are better placed to be able to join
>>everything you need to know - more than just the ticket - in a way that makes
>>sense ("your trip to XXX"), as well as usually integrating things like baggage
>>tracking in a way that a generic wallet doesn't.
>
>How does that work when one trip involves a flight, a train, a metro (or
>pre-booked taxi), some theatre tickets and a ski pass?
>
>Do you find one vendor to buy them all from, or do they end up in five
>different apps?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It doesn't need to be particularly painful though. China has long
>>> collected fingerprints when they issue visas, and then check them
>>> at the border, and it seems quick and reliable. Certainly much
>>> quicker than the face recognition checks that take place at the
>>> current generation of eGates. I was fingerprinted somewhere else
>>> recently - Thailand maybe? - on arrival as well, and I'm fairly
>>> sure those aren't the only two; it's getting routine enough not
>>> to be notable to be honest.
>>>
>>
>> One place I visited pre-covid took fingerprints on arrival and IIRC checked
>> them on departure (presumably in case I'd had either a finger or face
>> transplant in the meantime) - either Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan, but I
>> can't remember which. As you specified China, and also from memory of the
>> departure airport, I'm minded to say it was Hong Kong.
>
> When I went to Kenya, they checked more fingerprints on arrival than
> departure.
>

In case you lose some while you're there?!? *raises eyebrow*

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't need to be particularly painful though. China has long
>>>> collected fingerprints when they issue visas, and then check them
>>>> at the border, and it seems quick and reliable. Certainly much
>>>> quicker than the face recognition checks that take place at the
>>>> current generation of eGates. I was fingerprinted somewhere else
>>>> recently - Thailand maybe? - on arrival as well, and I'm fairly
>>>> sure those aren't the only two; it's getting routine enough not
>>>> to be notable to be honest.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One place I visited pre-covid took fingerprints on arrival and IIRC checked
>>> them on departure (presumably in case I'd had either a finger or face
>>> transplant in the meantime) - either Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan, but I
>>> can't remember which. As you specified China, and also from memory of the
>>> departure airport, I'm minded to say it was Hong Kong.
>>
>> When I went to Kenya, they checked more fingerprints on arrival than
>> departure.
>>
>
> In case you lose some while you're there?!? *raises eyebrow*

It certainly took me by surprise.