Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>
>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>
> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
> foreign looking text) in an image.
>

Another fan of google translate here, though sometimes you still need some
skills to interpret the actual meaning. Machine translation translates the
words but a human would translate the meaning of the text, not always the
same thing.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>
>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>
>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>
>
> Another fan of google translate here, though sometimes you still need some
> skills to interpret the actual meaning. Machine translation translates the
> words but a human would translate the meaning of the text, not always the
> same thing.

Yes, it’s not perfect - I most recently tried it on the cover of a Russian
edition of Winnie The Pooh and it translated part of the title, not itself
a literal translation of any English edition, but failed on another part
which I gather is a Russian idiom which is nothing like the English
equivalent.

Still much better than nothing, though!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 23/01/2023 11:48, Bob wrote:

> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are entirely
> inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose technically
> one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within the
> Vatican).

I've a vague idea that the Vatican might have some kind of transit
rights through Italy.

Article 6 of the 1929 Lateran treaty says: "Agreements shall be
subsequently concluded between the Holy See and Italy concerning the
circulation, on and over Italian territory, of land vehicles and
aircraft belonging to the Vatican City."

--
Arthur Figgis

On 24/01/2023 09:00, Rolf Mantel wrote:

> Rolf 'When will UK national ID cards be introduced? SNCR'

When Germans cross the road on a red man...

--
Arthur Figgis

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/01/2023 09:00, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>
>> Rolf 'When will UK national ID cards be introduced? SNCR'
>
> When Germans cross the road on a red man...
>

It is happening by stealth. At the next elections you need official photo
ID to vote (passport, driving licence, bus pass etc). Those that don’t have
any of this need to apply for a voter ID card. I’m expecting a lot of fuss
around the May local elections.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/voter-id?gclsrc=aw.ds

On 26/01/2023 07:07, Tweed wrote:
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 24/01/2023 09:00, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>
>>> Rolf 'When will UK national ID cards be introduced? SNCR'
>>
>> When Germans cross the road on a red man...
>>
>
> It is happening by stealth. At the next elections you need official photo
> ID to vote (passport, driving licence, bus pass etc). Those that don’t have
> any of this need to apply for a voter ID card. I’m expecting a lot of fuss
> around the May local elections.
>
> https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/voter-id?gclsrc=aw.ds

But surely that is gives an advantage to old people, who
disproportinately vote for the... oh.
--
Arthur Figgis

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 3:03:52 PM EET, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I don?t quite follow the need for a finger print. The passport is the
>>>> identifier that should be used to count how many days you?ve been in
>>>> Schengen. If there are worries about the passport belonging to the person
>>>> presenting it doesn?t that equally apply to Schengen passport holders?
>>> It does. Which is why it's been mandatory for all EU issued passports to
>>> include fingerprint data for a while now (and indeed why the new biometric ID
>>> cards also include fingerprint data.)
>> But are Schengen passport holders expected to present their fingers for
>> checking? Genuine question, I don?t know.
>
> I don't know (and I'm not minded to dig through the EU website at
> this point, it's late,) but given that it has been made mandatory
> for all EU identity cards and passports to carry chips with the
> holder's fingerprint data, one might reasonably guess that's the
> plan at some point... Although "at some point" may well be a
> decade away, given existing documents need to expire/be replaced,
> so I guess for a while at least Schengen passport holders will be
> saved that trouble.
>
> It doesn't need to be particularly painful though. China has long
> collected fingerprints when they issue visas, and then check them
> at the border, and it seems quick and reliable. Certainly much
> quicker than the face recognition checks that take place at the
> current generation of eGates. I was fingerprinted somewhere else
> recently - Thailand maybe? - on arrival as well, and I'm fairly
> sure those aren't the only two; it's getting routine enough not
> to be notable to be honest.
>

One place I visited pre-covid took fingerprints on arrival and IIRC checked
them on departure (presumably in case I'd had either a finger or face
transplant in the meantime) - either Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan, but I
can't remember which. As you specified China, and also from memory of the
departure airport, I'm minded to say it was Hong Kong.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 3:03:52 PM EET, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I don?t quite follow the need for a finger print. The passport is the
>>>>> identifier that should be used to count how many days you?ve been in
>>>>> Schengen. If there are worries about the passport belonging to the person
>>>>> presenting it doesn?t that equally apply to Schengen passport holders?
>>>> It does. Which is why it's been mandatory for all EU issued passports to
>>>> include fingerprint data for a while now (and indeed why the new biometric ID
>>>> cards also include fingerprint data.)
>>> But are Schengen passport holders expected to present their fingers for
>>> checking? Genuine question, I don?t know.
>>
>> I don't know (and I'm not minded to dig through the EU website at
>> this point, it's late,) but given that it has been made mandatory
>> for all EU identity cards and passports to carry chips with the
>> holder's fingerprint data, one might reasonably guess that's the
>> plan at some point... Although "at some point" may well be a
>> decade away, given existing documents need to expire/be replaced,
>> so I guess for a while at least Schengen passport holders will be
>> saved that trouble.
>>
>> It doesn't need to be particularly painful though. China has long
>> collected fingerprints when they issue visas, and then check them
>> at the border, and it seems quick and reliable. Certainly much
>> quicker than the face recognition checks that take place at the
>> current generation of eGates. I was fingerprinted somewhere else
>> recently - Thailand maybe? - on arrival as well, and I'm fairly
>> sure those aren't the only two; it's getting routine enough not
>> to be notable to be honest.
>>
>
> One place I visited pre-covid took fingerprints on arrival and IIRC checked
> them on departure (presumably in case I'd had either a finger or face
> transplant in the meantime) - either Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan, but I
> can't remember which. As you specified China, and also from memory of the
> departure airport, I'm minded to say it was Hong Kong.

When I went to Kenya, they checked more fingerprints on arrival than
departure.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 11:48, Bob wrote:
>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are entirely
>> inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose technically
>> one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within the
>> Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles things
>> like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht from
>> somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>
> What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there
> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I
> was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting
> from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.
>

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra–European_Union_relations> explains
everything.

Andorra is:
In the eurozone
Not in the EU
Not in Schengen
In *a* customs union with the EU, but not *the* Customs Union
Not in the Single Market
Not in the EEA or EFTA
Has a number of other agreements with the EU, France and Spain.

<quote>
Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the Schengen
area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]

There are only two official land border crossing points: La Seu d'Urgell in
Spain and Pas de la Casa at the border to France. In addition, helicopters
are allowed to go to airports with border control located in other
countries, but not to other places outside Andorra. Flights usually go to
the airports of Barcelona or Toulouse.[9]
</quote>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:01:22 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there
>> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I
>> was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting
>> from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.
>>
>
><https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra–European_Union_relations> explains
>everything.
>
>Andorra is:
>In the eurozone
>Not in the EU
>Not in Schengen
>In *a* customs union with the EU, but not *the* Customs Union
>Not in the Single Market
>Not in the EEA or EFTA
>Has a number of other agreements with the EU, France and Spain.
>
><quote>
>Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the Schengen
>area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]

So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm, interesting.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 15:44, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 23/01/2023 11:48, Bob wrote:
>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit,
>>> the UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated
>>> in those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open
>>> border aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but
>>> do not participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the
>>> only one of the three for which that actually matters, as the other
>>> two are entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I
>>> suppose technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a
>>> helicopter within the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that
>>> France handles things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in
>>> a private yacht from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>
>> What's the status of Andorra?   Not in the EU, but you can't get there
>> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain.   Last time
>> I was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those
>> visiting from France.   Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank
>> of petrol.
>>
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same as Vatican City and San Marino.
>

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstates_and_the_European_Union> is a
great summary of the differences between the microstates.

> How much lower is petrol per litre in Andorra than in France, I wonder?
>
> I also wonder how often French customs stop cars that have crossed over
> just to refill their tanks.
>

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>
>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>
>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>
>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>
>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>
>
> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
> secure the border with Italy.
>

The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>
>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>
>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>
> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.

It's been around for 17 years as a website and 13 years as an app, it's
hardly new. The real-time translation of stuff you point your camera at has
been available for 8 years.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 27/01/2023 12:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:01:22 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there
>>> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I
>>> was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting
>>> from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.
>>>
>>
>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra–European_Union_relations> explains
>> everything.
>>
>> Andorra is:
>> In the eurozone
>> Not in the EU
>> Not in Schengen
>> In *a* customs union with the EU, but not *the* Customs Union
>> Not in the Single Market
>> Not in the EEA or EFTA
>> Has a number of other agreements with the EU, France and Spain.
>>
>> <quote>
>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the Schengen
>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>
> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm, interesting.
>

Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 27/01/2023 13:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>>
>>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>>
>>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>>
>>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>>
>>
>> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
>> secure the border with Italy.
>>
>
> The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
> Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
> that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.
>

But well marked and even has a fence.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2023 12:12, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:01:22 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> What's the status of Andorra? Not in the EU, but you can't get there
>>>> (except by air perhaps) without going from France or Spain. Last time I
>>>> was there a petrol station was doing a roaring trade from those visiting
>>>> from France. Sadly I didn't know and had a nearly full tank of petrol.
>>>>
>>>
>>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra–European_Union_relations> explains
>>> everything.
>>>
>>> Andorra is:
>>> In the eurozone
>>> Not in the EU
>>> Not in Schengen
>>> In *a* customs union with the EU, but not *the* Customs Union
>>> Not in the Single Market
>>> Not in the EEA or EFTA
>>> Has a number of other agreements with the EU, France and Spain.
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> Andorra has stayed outside the Schengen Agreement and maintains border
>>> controls with the EU[citation needed]. However, as travellers to Andorra
>>> have to pass through the Schengen Area, and Andorra does not require or
>>> issue any visas, entry requirements are in practice the same as in the
>>> Schengen area. Visitors to Andorra who require a visa to enter the Schengen
>>> area need a multi-entry Schengen visa, since to leave Andorra they must
>>> enter the Schengen area a second time.[8]
>>
>> So a tiny fly spec european country like Andorra can survive outside the EU
>> perfectly happily yet a country with 70 million people can't. Hmm, interesting.
>>
>
> Because it is only notionally outside the EU, most importantly it is
> inside the Customs Union which avoids all the Northern Ireland style
> shenanigans. The reason Andorra wishes to remain outside the EU is
> because its main income is derived from its status as a tax haven.

Hmmm… That can’t possibly be the reason people wanted the UK to leave the
EU, surely…

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <tqmlgo$3o3n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:40 on Mon, 23 Jan
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>
>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>
>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>
>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>
>Keep up - it’s not hard.

I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to coping with
600 by next Xmas.

Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20 at a time.

--
Roland Perry

In message <tqmsh4$3p9i6$6@dont-email.me>, at 21:00:20 on Mon, 23 Jan
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>
>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>>>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>
>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>
>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>
>It's also not a new app — it's been around for quite a few years.

<sigh> It's new to my phone.

Do you install every app that comes out, must be hundreds of thousands
by now.
--
Roland Perry

In message <13gush10uk7aip6usd9im248msfte4qvff@4ax.com>, at 18:21:57 on
Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 00:41:52 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
><hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 23/01/2023 21:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:00:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>>>>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or
>>>>>>different
>>>>>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>>
>>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>>>
>>> The trouble with unwanted new apps is the storage on the 'phone might
>>> not be able to keep up with them if you get too many of them. My
>>> 'phone has more than the basic storage but e.g. I have had to dump 2
>>> out of 4 different parking apps to stop them and other apps
>>> constipating it.
>>
>>iPhone will offload some apps that have not seen use in a while.
>
>Android (in my experience) will *suggest* the user might consider
>removing/unenabling same

Yes it does, but curiously it's always ones I want to keep, rather than
ones which are truly dormant. Maybe it only tracks the ones which have
been used in the recent-ish past?
--
Roland Perry

In message <tqp4a9$7rc7$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:25:30 on Tue, 24 Jan
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 24 Jan 2023 at 10:12:40 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 00:41:52 +0000, "<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk>"
>>> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/01/2023 21:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> The trouble with unwanted new apps is the storage on the 'phone might
>>>>> not be able to keep up with them if you get too many of them. My
>>>>> 'phone has more than the basic storage but e.g. I have had to dump 2
>>>>> out of 4 different parking apps to stop them and other apps
>>>>> constipating it.
>>>>
>>>> iPhone will offload some apps that have not seen use in a while.
>>>
>>> Android (in my experience) will *suggest* the user might consider
>>> removing/unenabling same
>>>
>>
>> And phones come with lot more storage these days than they used to. The
>> space taken by apps really mattered when phones only had 16GB, but few
>> phones come with less than 64GB these days, and 128GB is common now, even
>> on budget phones. So, having a couple of GB of apps hardly matters any
>> more.
>
>Indeed. I have a hundreds of apps on my phone, and while they do all add up to
>about 50GB, it's not the travel apps that are consuming all the space - it's
>the likes of Netflix, Spotify, Audible, and (somewhat deranged, but I guess
>I've never cleared its download cache - 1.83GB!) The Times that occupy the top
>positions.

That sounds like it's the data for those apps which is using the
storage, not the app itself.

My concern is more about the needle-in-a-haystack dozens of panes on the
home screen.

>I was actually an 'early adopter', as one correspondent might say, of pkpass
>ticketing, and in the past made fairly heavy use of passwallet.

I was an early adopter of the apps, but have struggled to find any
vendors to push me tickets in those formats.

>But these days I don't bother much, I much prefer to just use the
>dedicated operator apps.

They can be better at pushing the tickets with the user having to jump
through hoops, but relies on being able to remember which vendor was
used for which tickets. Plus of course the registration/username/
password bloat to set each one up.

>Having all my tickets in one place is actually quite confusing when there's a
>lot of them, and the dedicated apps are better placed to be able to join
>everything you need to know - more than just the ticket - in a way that makes
>sense ("your trip to XXX"), as well as usually integrating things like baggage
>tracking in a way that a generic wallet doesn't.

How does that work when one trip involves a flight, a train, a metro (or
pre-booked taxi), some theatre tickets and a ski pass?

Do you find one vendor to buy them all from, or do they end up in five
different apps?

--
Roland Perry

In message <tqo3db$266u$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:03:55 on Tue, 24 Jan
2023, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2023-01-23 18:27:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>>2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:

>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.

>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for
>>>>Russia had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't
>>>>tell if it was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).

>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use
>>>your phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English
>>>(or different foreign looking text) in an image.

>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>
>FSVO "new".

New to me.

>The Google Translate app was released 13 years ago on Android and 12
>years ago on iOS.

13yrs ago was 2010 and Android 2.1; my first Android phone was 2011, and
frankly it was so under powered it was just a toy.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tqo4i5$2cae$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:23:33 on Tue, 24 Jan
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tqjt9n$36tt9$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:55:03 on Sun, 22 Jan
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <042cnQNTP7ySjFD-nZ2dnZfqnPcAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 10:33:51 on Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore
>>>>>> the war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only
>>>>>> valid for the duration of one short trip.
>>>>
>>>> It was reasonably long ago (15yrs maybe) but my business visa for Russia
>>>> had a very short validity. As I don't read Russian I can't tell if it
>>>> was for more than one entry (of whichever kind).
>>>
>>> I can thoroughly recommend the Google Translate app which can use your
>>> phone’s camera to replace foreign-looking text with English (or different
>>> foreign looking text) in an image.
>>
>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>
>I think you have a typo, and meant to say, "Thank you for reminding me that
>I have a powerful, free translation service included in my phone!".

Oh, it's included now, is it. Not an app I have to add?
--
Roland Perry

In message <tqls4i$3jrbj$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:47:30 on Mon, 23 Jan
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:

>if I have a long-haul business trip, I'll take a few days either end
>and come up with something to break the journey. On this occasion I'm
>going to fly to Singapore a week before - break up the journey, and
>also allow me to get rid of the worst of the jetlag in my own time

Generous annual leave from your employer?
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2023 13:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>>>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>>>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
>>> secure the border with Italy.
>>>
>>
>> The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
>> Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
>> that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.
>>
>
> But well marked and even has a fence.
>

True but if you wanted to secure it and apply border controls, it would be
rather intrusive.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 27/01/2023 14:23, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/01/2023 13:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 23/01/2023 15:59, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-01-23 11:40:56 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 12:35:46 +0100
>>>>>>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2023-01-22 20:22:41 +0000, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2023 11:01, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> travellers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think they'd still need
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
>>>>>>>>>>> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
>>>>>>>>>>> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
>>>>>>>>>>> citizens like Brits.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
>>>>>>>>>>> citizens" fast-lane.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
>>>>>>>>>> not all Schengen countries are in the EU.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Non-EU Schengen members: CH, LI, IS and NO?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Non-Schengen EU members: RO, BG, IE and CY.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vatican, San Marino and Monaco all have open borders to their Schengen
>>>>>>>> neighbours, but to not formally participate in the scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If their borders are open then they're de-facto in Schengen anyway. Perhaps
>>>>>>> they just like to leave their options open by not officially joining.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's more to Schengen than just the open borders. There are various
>>>>>> information sharing schemes designed to assist in catching bad people
>>>>>> whom the previous restricted borders might have caught. Pre-Brexit, the
>>>>>> UK and Ireland (presumably still in the latter case) participated in
>>>>>> those aspects of Schengen but retained an opt out of the open border
>>>>>> aspect. Vatican, San Marino and Monaco have open borders, but do not
>>>>>> participate in the other aspects of Schengen. Monaco is the only one of
>>>>>> the three for which that actually matters, as the other two are
>>>>>> entirely inaccessible other than by passing through Italy (I suppose
>>>>>> technically one could parachute in, or perhaps land a helicopter within
>>>>>> the Vatican). Given Monaco's status, it may be that France handles
>>>>>> things like entry formalities for eg people arriving in a private yacht
>>>>>> from somewhere like Turkey or north Africa.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t know San Marino and the Vatican, but it would be pretty disruptive
>>>>> to secure the land border between France and Monaco, given that much of it
>>>>> runs down the middle of streets.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Vatican is effectively a walled city so technically possible to
>>>> secure the border with Italy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The borders extend beyond the walls, I walked across the border from Via
>>> Della Conciliazione to St Peter's Square a few months ago. The border at
>>> that point runs roughly along the kerb of the road.
>>>
>>
>> But well marked and even has a fence.
>>
>
> True but if you wanted to secure it and apply border controls, it would be
> rather intrusive.
>