On 01.02.23 12:29, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 01/02/2023 11:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>>
>>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>> marketing person).
>>>
>>
>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up
>> by a
>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>
>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>
> Amstrad being a bad example, as Roland will no doubt point out.

Surely Amstrad is an example of "someone's (equally irrelevant to the
product) name", it being and abbreviated Alan Michael Sugar Trading.
Had Alan Sugar decided his best bet for making money was on selling
shoes, then we might associate Amstrad with trainers rather than cheap
electronics.

Robin

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/02/2023 11:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>>
>>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>>> marketing person).
>>>
>>
>> Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>> marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>>
>> Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>
> Amstrad being a bad example, as Roland will no doubt point out.
>

Alan Michael Sugar TRADing; could be trading in anything, nothing in the
name to suggest it's a computer/technology company.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <trc5sm$j3g$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:48:54 on Tue, 31 Jan
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:37:58 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:12:33 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2023 17:48:53 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Didn't realise it was Debden. I was obviously thinking of the
>>>>>>>>>coin mint
>>>>>>>>> which IIRC without googling is in wales.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Llantrisant, which is just outside Cardiff. You weren’t
>>>>>>>>thinking that
>>>>
>>>>>>>> that was in England, were you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, hence the "is in wales". You seem to be having basic comprehension
>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you previously wrote “The BoE notes are printed in
>>>>>>England.” but when you were told it was Debden said you must
>>>>>>thinking of the mint, which is in Wales.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You seem to be having basic memory issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like a lot of people I often tend to use england interchangebly
>>>>>with britain.
>>>>
>>>>> Naughty me.
>>>>
>>>> Yep, basic memory issues.
>>>
>>> Not really. Plenty of people do it. In europe and the USA england and UK are
>>> virtually interchangable too.
>>
>> So most of the world gets it wrong and the English don’t notice either.
>> SOP.
>
>I do notice, and make sure always to use the right terms myself, but have
>pretty much given up trying to explain the complicated UK to foreigners,
>let alone things like the CTA.
>
>The relationships between NI, GB and Ireland are also hard to explain. And
>how many Brits, including some here, still refer to the RoI as 'Southern
>Ireland', even though it extends further north than NI?

That'll be because they didn't over-read the description as "entirely in
the south of the island". Geographers would look for the centre of
gravity of the north and south and drawn conclusions from that.
--
Roland Perry

In message <trbc0c$3s4hj$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:27:08 on Tue, 31 Jan
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tr9ge7$3fhkg$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:30:31 on Mon, 30 Jan
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tr3nkl$2ap5m$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:36 on Sat, 28 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2023 14:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tr10h8$1pc5c$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:10:00 on Fri, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coping with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some people might decide to group them in folders.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  I have some in folders when they are tight-knit groups (such as
>>>>>>>>>>>> car-parking-fee apps). But it's not always obvious how to build a
>>>>>>>>>>>> hierarchy.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  So for example do you put Google Maps in a Google folder, or a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maps folder.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What works better for you?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "None of the above", but that's not an option.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes it is. Don't put it in a folder.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But then it's on one of seven or eight screenfulls to swipe between;
>>>>>>>> needle in a haystack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Search function? I usually get the app I want within 2 or 3 keystrokes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't that mean you have to know the name? They are becoming even more
>>>>>> bizarre (and disjoint from a description of the function).
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't remember the name of the app perhaps you don't need it after
>>>>> all?
>>>>
>>>> I remember the function I want, not the bizarre name the company calls
>>>> itself. Another example to add to those I've mentioned earlier - to rent
>>>> an electric scooter in Cambridge the app name has no clues about any of
>>>> that, but is called "Voi".
>>>
>>> If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the results.
>>> Not right at the top, where it would if I searched for "voi" (in the
>>> section titled "top hits"), but in the third section "apps" (below "Siri
>>> suggestions", in this case a selection of web results) - but still on the
>>> first screen, above the keyboard at the bottom of the screen.
>>>
>>> It's almost as if, perhaps, someone has already thought of this?
>>
>> Let's try: A generic search for "scoot" has:
>>
>> Scooter (Musical Band).
>> Scoot (could be a sponsored ad for an app).
>> later... no, it's a Singapore airline.
>> Scoot 66 - Liverpool HUH?
>> Scooters for sale
>> Scooters for sale Cambridge
>> Scooter electric
>> Scooter suitcase
>> ScooterMan (a transport service in London, apparently).
>> Scooter for 2 year old
>> Scooter for 10 year old
>> Scoot McNairy (American Actor)
>>
>> {Actually I cheated, only the first six are above the keyboard, I had to
>> zap it to get the rest).
>
>We've already determined that you can't find a way to search for apps on
>your phone,

That's because there isn't a way, however much I try to follow the
advice of people who are blind to that fact.

>so searching for an app and not being able to find it on your phone is
>not unexpected.

I did *exactly, *precisely*, what *you* recommended. Viz: Using the
search on my phone. If you don't like the result, then perhaps you
should revisit the accuracy of your advice.
--
Roland Perry

In message <trbg8i$3sqj0$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:39:46 on Tue, 31 Jan
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:24:59 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <trantr$3onic$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:27 on Tue, 31 Jan
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 09:29:56 +0000
>>>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 20:43:19 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On iPhone it's "swipe down on the home screen". I don't have my work phone
>>>>>>with me right now to try on android.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've tried on two here. Zilch.
>>>>
>>>>How on earth do you do an internet search on your phone? On my home
>>>>screen there's a Google search box. I type, or begin to type, a search
>>>>term into it and get results, whether they're apps or internet
>>>>results.
>>>>
>>>>Let me guess - you fire up the browser and search from there,
>>>>restricting the results to the web.
>>>
>>>How can anyone have so many apps on their phone that they need to do a text
>>>search for them??
>>
>>Because there are so many interesting apps out there. And just to remind
>
>Are there? Never noticed. 99.9% are either "ooo shiny!" 4th rate crap games
>or utilities that are useless.

Of course "99.9%" (hyperbole, where would we be without it) are like
that, but you appear to be falling for the "big numbers" fallacy.

There's 2.7 million on the Google Play store alone, so 1% is 27000 and
0.1% is 2700.
--
Roland Perry

In message <fmdithds7a25c04qn20tpg24bc0rtoamf0@4ax.com>, at 15:51:31 on
Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:27:08 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tr9ge7$3fhkg$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:30:31 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <tr3nkl$2ap5m$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:36 on Sat, 28 Jan
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2023 14:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tr10h8$1pc5c$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:10:00 on
>>>>>>>>>>>Fri, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coping with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some people might decide to group them in folders.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I have some in folders when they are tight-knit groups (such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> car-parking-fee apps). But it's not always obvious how to build a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hierarchy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  So for example do you put Google Maps in a Google folder, or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maps folder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What works better for you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "None of the above", but that's not an option.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes it is. Don't put it in a folder.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But then it's on one of seven or eight screenfulls to swipe between;
>>>>>>>>> needle in a haystack.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Search function? I usually get the app I want within 2 or 3 keystrokes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't that mean you have to know the name? They are becoming even more
>>>>>>> bizarre (and disjoint from a description of the function).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can't remember the name of the app perhaps you don't need it after
>>>>>> all?
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember the function I want, not the bizarre name the company calls
>>>>> itself. Another example to add to those I've mentioned earlier - to rent
>>>>> an electric scooter in Cambridge the app name has no clues about any of
>>>>> that, but is called "Voi".
>>>>
>>>> If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the results.
>>>> Not right at the top, where it would if I searched for "voi" (in the
>>>> section titled "top hits"), but in the third section "apps" (below "Siri
>>>> suggestions", in this case a selection of web results) - but still on the
>>>> first screen, above the keyboard at the bottom of the screen.
>>>>
>>>> It's almost as if, perhaps, someone has already thought of this?
>>>
>>> Let's try: A generic search for "scoot" has:
>>>
>>> Scooter (Musical Band).
>>> Scoot (could be a sponsored ad for an app).
>>> later... no, it's a Singapore airline.
>>> Scoot 66 - Liverpool HUH?
>>> Scooters for sale
>>> Scooters for sale Cambridge
>>> Scooter electric
>>> Scooter suitcase
>>> ScooterMan (a transport service in London, apparently).
>>> Scooter for 2 year old
>>> Scooter for 10 year old
>>> Scoot McNairy (American Actor)
>>>
>>> {Actually I cheated, only the first six are above the keyboard, I had to
>>> zap it to get the rest).
>>
>>We've already determined that you can't find a way to search for apps on
>>your phone, so searching for an app and not being able to find it on your
>>phone is not unexpected.
>
>There is, of course, a very easy way of searching for apps on any
>Android phone, and you don't need to know the exact name of the app.

>If you already have the app installed, it offers to open it, otherwise
>it offers to install it. Given how many apps Roland apparently has
>installed, he must be an unusually frequent user of this option:
>Google Play.

99 times out of 100 I use Google Play on my laptop (because the UI is
vastly superior). It then pushes and installs the app I want on my
phone. Extremely effectively (which is why I've never complained about
it). Although if pressed, I might say it's not particularly helpful to
be offered a choice of target device by its part number, rather than
something a bit more intuitive.

Just to show willing, here's what I get if I do a search on "scoot" in
Google Play, on the phone:

Scooter
Scooter Game
Scooty Game
Scoot <<- That Singapore airline again
Scooter Wala Game
--
Roland Perry

In message <trc5i6$hic$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:43:18 on Tue, 31 Jan
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <6mnhthhhqrsauchfp7r1jdjdp0rpj0llqp@4ax.com>, at 09:29:56 on
>> Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 20:43:19 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On iPhone it's "swipe down on the home screen". I don't have my work phone
>>>>> with me right now to try on android.
>>>>
>>>> I've tried on two here. Zilch.
>>>
>>> How on earth do you do an internet search on your phone? On my home
>>> screen there's a Google search box. I type, or begin to type, a search
>>> term into it and get results, whether they're apps or internet
>>> results.
>>
>> I do the above[1], but it never returns any results which are apps
>> installed on my phone, …
>
>You’ve got a crap phone,

$600 phones from LG and Samsung. Their marketing departments would be
mortified.

>or one that recognises it’s in Ely and deliberately restricts its own
>functionality.

The infant school playground is over there --->

Or has your mind been rotted by eating deep fried Mars Bars (a local
delicacy I'm told), in which case we can all make allowances.
--
Roland Perry

In message <trba5i$3rqo5$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:55:46 on Tue, 31 Jan
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 31 Jan 2023 at 4:26:09 PM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <trao1i$3olnn$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:26 on Tue, 31 Jan
>> 2023, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> On iPhone it's "swipe down on the home screen". I don't have my
>>>>>>work phone
>>>>>> with me right now to try on android.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried on two here. Zilch.
>>
>>>> How on earth do you do an internet search on your phone? On my home
>>>> screen there's a Google search box. I type, or begin to type, a search
>>>> term into it and get results, whether they're apps or internet
>>>> results.
>>>
>>> Our discussion was about the existence of a bespoke 'search box for
>>> apps', not about the existence of a generic search box.
>>
>> Well spotted. And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me where to find
>> it.
>
>On my Samsung Android phone it is revealed - as it is on most - by swiping up
>on the home screen.

I'm losing track of the number of times I need to say that on my Android
Phones, it's not like that. You seem like an intelligent person, so why
this massive blind-spot?

>As you can see below, the local search includes Apps
>(first section), diary entries and local documents in the second section,
>search 'within' the phone settings in the next, contacts in the next (hidden
>behind the keyboard in this screenshot), and then finally search with Google.
> I deliberately only typed two characters in order to show all the options,
>but fairly rapidly all those various sources collapse down to the one you want
>once you've typed in one or two more letters.
>
><https://imgur.com/a/ALODeGe>

>That you have managed to find an Android phone that does things differently is
>not in and of itself remarkable, but it is somewhat remarkable that you expect
>us to tell you how to use it

I'm only asking you to accept that it's not the same as yours. And that
just maybe, perhaps, there's an outside chance that I'm not imagining
that up-swipe does nothing, zilch, nada, on mine.

>without even knowing what it is.

One is an LG, the other a Samsung. Not particularly low-volume brands.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <trbc0c$3s4hj$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:27:08 on Tue, 31 Jan
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tr9ge7$3fhkg$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:30:31 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> But then it's on one of seven or eight screenfulls to swipe between;
>>>>>>>>> needle in a haystack.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Search function? I usually get the app I want within 2 or 3 keystrokes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't that mean you have to know the name? They are becoming even more
>>>>>>> bizarre (and disjoint from a description of the function).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can't remember the name of the app perhaps you don't need it after
>>>>>> all?
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember the function I want, not the bizarre name the company calls
>>>>> itself. Another example to add to those I've mentioned earlier - to rent
>>>>> an electric scooter in Cambridge the app name has no clues about any of
>>>>> that, but is called "Voi".
>>>>
>>>> If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the results.
>>>> Not right at the top, where it would if I searched for "voi" (in the
>>>> section titled "top hits"), but in the third section "apps" (below "Siri
>>>> suggestions", in this case a selection of web results) - but still on the
>>>> first screen, above the keyboard at the bottom of the screen.
>>>>
>>>> It's almost as if, perhaps, someone has already thought of this?
>>>
>>> Let's try: A generic search for "scoot" has:
>>>
>>> Scooter (Musical Band).
>>> Scoot (could be a sponsored ad for an app).
>>> later... no, it's a Singapore airline.
>>> Scoot 66 - Liverpool HUH?
>>> Scooters for sale
>>> Scooters for sale Cambridge
>>> Scooter electric
>>> Scooter suitcase
>>> ScooterMan (a transport service in London, apparently).
>>> Scooter for 2 year old
>>> Scooter for 10 year old
>>> Scoot McNairy (American Actor)
>>>
>>> {Actually I cheated, only the first six are above the keyboard, I had to
>>> zap it to get the rest).
>>
>> We've already determined that you can't find a way to search for apps on
>> your phone,
>
> That's because there isn't a way, however much I try to follow the
> advice of people who are blind to that fact.
>

Except the way (Google Play store) which has been pointed out by Recliner).

>> so searching for an app and not being able to find it on your phone is
>> not unexpected.
>
> I did *exactly, *precisely*, what *you* recommended. Viz: Using the
> search on my phone. If you don't like the result, then perhaps you
> should revisit the accuracy of your advice.

I said, "If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the
results". I have an iPhone, as you know. Perhaps I should have repeated
that fact in the statement, but to do so for everything which might get
quibbled would make posts both unwriteable and unreadable.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 13:26:40 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <fmdithds7a25c04qn20tpg24bc0rtoamf0@4ax.com>, at 15:51:31 on
>Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 15:27:08 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tr9ge7$3fhkg$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:30:31 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <tr3nkl$2ap5m$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:36 on Sat, 28 Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/01/2023 14:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <tr10h8$1pc5c$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:10:00 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>Fri, 27 Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Another* new app! This is becoming a daily phenomenon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep up - it’s not hard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got perhaps 300 already, I don't want to be having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coping with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 600 by next Xmas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Especially when the relatively tiny screen only shows 20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some people might decide to group them in folders.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I have some in folders when they are tight-knit groups (such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> car-parking-fee apps). But it's not always obvious how to build a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hierarchy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  So for example do you put Google Maps in a Google folder, or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maps folder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What works better for you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "None of the above", but that's not an option.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes it is. Don't put it in a folder.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But then it's on one of seven or eight screenfulls to swipe between;
>>>>>>>>>> needle in a haystack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Search function? I usually get the app I want within 2 or 3 keystrokes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't that mean you have to know the name? They are becoming even more
>>>>>>>> bizarre (and disjoint from a description of the function).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you can't remember the name of the app perhaps you don't need it after
>>>>>>> all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember the function I want, not the bizarre name the company calls
>>>>>> itself. Another example to add to those I've mentioned earlier - to rent
>>>>>> an electric scooter in Cambridge the app name has no clues about any of
>>>>>> that, but is called "Voi".
>>>>>
>>>>> If I search for "scoot" on my phone, the Voi app comes up in the results.
>>>>> Not right at the top, where it would if I searched for "voi" (in the
>>>>> section titled "top hits"), but in the third section "apps" (below "Siri
>>>>> suggestions", in this case a selection of web results) - but still on the
>>>>> first screen, above the keyboard at the bottom of the screen.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's almost as if, perhaps, someone has already thought of this?
>>>>
>>>> Let's try: A generic search for "scoot" has:
>>>>
>>>> Scooter (Musical Band).
>>>> Scoot (could be a sponsored ad for an app).
>>>> later... no, it's a Singapore airline.
>>>> Scoot 66 - Liverpool HUH?
>>>> Scooters for sale
>>>> Scooters for sale Cambridge
>>>> Scooter electric
>>>> Scooter suitcase
>>>> ScooterMan (a transport service in London, apparently).
>>>> Scooter for 2 year old
>>>> Scooter for 10 year old
>>>> Scoot McNairy (American Actor)
>>>>
>>>> {Actually I cheated, only the first six are above the keyboard, I had to
>>>> zap it to get the rest).
>>>
>>>We've already determined that you can't find a way to search for apps on
>>>your phone, so searching for an app and not being able to find it on your
>>>phone is not unexpected.
>>
>>There is, of course, a very easy way of searching for apps on any
>>Android phone, and you don't need to know the exact name of the app.
>
>>If you already have the app installed, it offers to open it, otherwise
>>it offers to install it. Given how many apps Roland apparently has
>>installed, he must be an unusually frequent user of this option:
>>Google Play.
>
>99 times out of 100 I use Google Play on my laptop (because the UI is
>vastly superior). It then pushes and installs the app I want on my
>phone. Extremely effectively (which is why I've never complained about
>it). Although if pressed, I might say it's not particularly helpful to
>be offered a choice of target device by its part number, rather than
>something a bit more intuitive.
>
>Just to show willing, here's what I get if I do a search on "scoot" in
>Google Play, on the phone:
>
>Scooter
>Scooter Game
>Scooty Game
>Scoot <<- That Singapore airline again
>Scooter Wala Game

I don't suppose it occurred to you to type something like 'scooter camb'?

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 09:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:48:54 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> So most of the world gets it wrong and the English don’t notice either.
>>> SOP.
>>
>>I do notice, and make sure always to use the right terms myself, but have
>>pretty much given up trying to explain the complicated UK to foreigners,
>>let alone things like the CTA.
>>
>>The relationships between NI, GB and Ireland are also hard to explain. And
>>how many Brits, including some here, still refer to the RoI as 'Southern
>>Ireland', even though it extends further north than NI?
>
>So what? A large part of northern england is further north than southern
>scotland but england is still considered south of scotland.

That's not the same thing at all. The RoI actually extends north of the most northerly part of NI. So, the northernmost
point in the island of Ireland is in Co Donegal, Ireland, not 'Northern Ireland'.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <trc5i6$hic$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:43:18 on Tue, 31 Jan
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <6mnhthhhqrsauchfp7r1jdjdp0rpj0llqp@4ax.com>, at 09:29:56 on
>>> Tue, 31 Jan 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 20:43:19 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tr92ca$3d25i$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:34 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tr8k1r$3ar6n$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:26:03 on Mon, 30 Jan
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On iPhone it's "swipe down on the home screen". I don't have my work phone
>>>>>> with me right now to try on android.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried on two here. Zilch.
>>>>
>>>> How on earth do you do an internet search on your phone? On my home
>>>> screen there's a Google search box. I type, or begin to type, a search
>>>> term into it and get results, whether they're apps or internet
>>>> results.
>>>
>>> I do the above[1], but it never returns any results which are apps
>>> installed on my phone, …
>>
>> You’ve got a crap phone,
>
> $600 phones from LG and Samsung. Their marketing departments would be
> mortified.

Neither which has a really useful feature which every phone used by the
other correspondents here has. <shrug>

>> or one that recognises it’s in Ely and deliberately restricts its own
>> functionality.
>
> The infant school playground is over there --->
>
> Or has your mind been rotted by eating deep fried Mars Bars (a local
> delicacy I'm told), in which case we can all make allowances.

I ate half of a deep fried Mars Bar in the late 2000s (from a chip shop on
the promenade in Aberdeen) so you’re probably right. All allowances
welcome.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:49:54 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 01.02.23 10:17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> The normans almost managed the same with french though in the end it combined
>
>> with anglo saxon to create English.
>
>There are two main factors that led to the survival and resurgance of
>English. One is that the Norman dialect of French was not the prestige
>Parisian dialect, so although the nobility initially spoke "French", it

Was Paris important enough back then? France was a load of seperate kingdoms
at that time all with their own dialect.

>was not the prestige form of the language. The other aspect is that as
>is often the case with the higher echelons of society, the duties of
>childcare were handed off to hired help, who tended to be English
>speaking, so the subsequent generations were often brought up with
>English as their first language, Norman French second, and then had to
>learn "proper" French if they wanted to be respecable. In this
>environment, the Norman French was squeezed out, and (by then Middle)
>English came to dominate.

It didn't get squeezed out , it got squeezed into English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin

The pie graph on the right shows that 29% of english words are directly
derived from French.

And then the Academie Francais has an attack of the vapours whenever a single
english word gets adopted across the channel. The irony.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:27:26 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 01/02/2023 10:49, Bob wrote:
>> Perhaps a better way to put it was that in what became England the Anglo
>> Saxons were economically, culturally and politically dominant, so the
>> Brittons who remained there adopted the language and culture, while in
>> Wales and Cornwall, at the time, this did not happen.
>
>There's an interesting book called The Tribes of Britain which goes into
>this. It's a bit out of date as it came out before the widespread use of
>DNA analysis to study population movements, but is broadly accurate. One
>of the points it makes it is that invaders tended to displace the ruling
>hierarchy, who retreated generally westwards, but the bulk of the
>population stayed put and just adapted to the new masters. After all it
>made little difference to the average peasant who the occupant of the
>local manor house was. Thus the so-called Celtic Fringe is a more or
>less a fantasy.

Something that amuses me is the scottish governments promotion of gaelic
as a national language whereas in fact it was a dialect of welsh spoken in the
central belt before scots supplanted it. Gaelic was spoken in the glens and
western isles.

On 01.02.23 17:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:49:54 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 01.02.23 10:17, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> The normans almost managed the same with french though in the end it combined
>>
>>> with anglo saxon to create English.
>>
>> There are two main factors that led to the survival and resurgance of
>> English. One is that the Norman dialect of French was not the prestige
>> Parisian dialect, so although the nobility initially spoke "French", it
>
> Was Paris important enough back then? France was a load of seperate kingdoms
> at that time all with their own dialect.

On the death of Charlemagne, his empire was divided, and the western
part became the Kingdom of the Franks, ultimately evolving into the
Kingdom of France. The exact borders changed over time, but it
essentially is what we would think of as France today, and its King was
based in Paris. The kingdom was divided into multiple duchies (one of
which was Normandy), and the dukes had varying degrees of autonomy
depending on the political situation and personalities of the King and
Dukes at any given time, but nominally all the Dukes owed feudal fealty
to the King. Paris, though, was the centre. It was not only the seat of
the crown, it was also a very important seat of learning, and as such it
was culturally important. Its university was established in 1150 and for
much of the middle ages it was the pre-eminent seat of learning of law
in all of Christendom. In the centuries after the Norman Conquest,
Paris was extremely important, and socially and culturally, the
pre-eminent city north of the Alps and west of the Rhine.

>> was not the prestige form of the language. The other aspect is that as
>> is often the case with the higher echelons of society, the duties of
>> childcare were handed off to hired help, who tended to be English
>> speaking, so the subsequent generations were often brought up with
>> English as their first language, Norman French second, and then had to
>> learn "proper" French if they wanted to be respecable. In this
>> environment, the Norman French was squeezed out, and (by then Middle)
>> English came to dominate.
>
> It didn't get squeezed out , it got squeezed into English.

Those were two distinct parallel processes. English borrowed a large
vocabulary from Norman French, but assimilated them into the existing
English language, retaining the grammar and syntax of English, and the
"core vocabulary" of the most important (most commonly used) words all
remaining Anglo Saxon. If you take a list of the 50 most commonly used
modern English words, there are something like 2 that are not either
Anglo Saxon or Norse, and highest placed word of French origin is
something like 45th on the list.

At the same time, the use of Norman French as a living and everyday
language within England atrophed and eventually ceased, with only a few
remnants surviving in fosilised usage (notably in a few parts of
Parliamentary procedure).

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin
>
> The pie graph on the right shows that 29% of english words are directly
> derived from French.

Of the total inventory of words, yes. If, however you weight them by
actual use, Anglo Saxon words still dominate.

> And then the Academie Francais has an attack of the vapours whenever a single
> english word gets adopted across the channel. The irony.

"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other
languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their
pockets for new vocabulary"

Robin

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 16:26:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:27:26 +0000
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>On 01/02/2023 10:49, Bob wrote:
>>> Perhaps a better way to put it was that in what became England the Anglo
>>> Saxons were economically, culturally and politically dominant, so the
>>> Brittons who remained there adopted the language and culture, while in
>>> Wales and Cornwall, at the time, this did not happen.
>>
>>There's an interesting book called The Tribes of Britain which goes into
>>this. It's a bit out of date as it came out before the widespread use of
>>DNA analysis to study population movements, but is broadly accurate. One
>>of the points it makes it is that invaders tended to displace the ruling
>>hierarchy, who retreated generally westwards, but the bulk of the
>>population stayed put and just adapted to the new masters. After all it
>>made little difference to the average peasant who the occupant of the
>>local manor house was. Thus the so-called Celtic Fringe is a more or
>>less a fantasy.
>
>Something that amuses me is the scottish governments promotion of gaelic
>as a national language whereas in fact it was a dialect of welsh spoken in the
>central belt before scots supplanted it. Gaelic was spoken in the glens and
>western isles.
>
Names of Gaelic origin extend well past the central belt with a great
deal of intermingling. On the East side there is also plenty of Norse
influence. Cumbric died out centuries ago while Gaelic and Gaeilge
continue to be imported into West Central Scotland from the
Gàidhealtachd and Gaeltacht.
As for the "masters", Norman French is still part of Westminster
Parliamentary procedure.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 09:19:31 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:48:54 -0000 (UTC)
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> So most of the world gets it wrong and the English don’t notice either.
>>> SOP.
>>
>>I do notice, and make sure always to use the right terms myself, but have
>>pretty much given up trying to explain the complicated UK to foreigners,
>>let alone things like the CTA.
>>
>>The relationships between NI, GB and Ireland are also hard to explain. And
>>how many Brits, including some here, still refer to the RoI as 'Southern
>>Ireland', even though it extends further north than NI?
>
>So what? A large part of northern england is further north than southern
>scotland but england is still considered south of scotland.
>
The point missed by those whose historical knowledge doesn't go back
far enough is that "Southern Ireland" is not just a geographical term
with proper relevant use but also a politically sensitive one for a UK
entity which existed only in 1922 before becoming the Irish Free
State. See also Malvinas versus Falkand Islands.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:13:58 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>
>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>> marketing person).
>>
>
>Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>
OTTOMH I would expect most to be smaller businesses whose name
connects either with the owner's name, their locality or the type of
business. Bigger businesses are more likely to have a practical clash
over their wider areas of business thus need a greater degree of
distinction in their names, something that seems to have missed the
attention of one particular fast food purveyor who try to get
litigious over people using their own surname for their business.
<snip>

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:13:58 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tr9aet$3eg1n$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:48:29 on Mon, 30 Jan
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Pressing that brings up a screen of apps in alphabetical order. At the
>>> top of that screen is a search box).
>>
>> To get a list of apps, I can press: Settings.. General... Apps.. but
>> there's no 'search' and Voi is at the bottom of a very long list
>> (mindful that I would want to be searching for something with electric
>> scooter functionality, not some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>> marketing person).
>>
>
>Aren't the majority of business names "some irrelevant name dreamed up by a
>marketing person", or someone's (equally irrelevant to the product) name?
>
>Examples perhaps being Amstrad, Demon and Virgin.
>
>If every business name had to be relevant to the product, you'd perhaps end
>up with a rather communist "Supermarket number 3" "Internet provider number
>5" kind of system?
>
>
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

My favourite is a bank spotted near my hotel in Chicago a few years
back... the Fifth Third Bank (with graphic as *5 / 3*).

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>
> At the same time, the use of Norman French as a living and everyday
> language within England atrophed and eventually ceased, with only a few
> remnants surviving in fosilised usage (notably in a few parts of
> Parliamentary procedure).

And in heraldry.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 01.02.23 20:08, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 16:26:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:27:26 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/02/2023 10:49, Bob wrote:
>>>> Perhaps a better way to put it was that in what became England the Anglo
>>>> Saxons were economically, culturally and politically dominant, so the
>>>> Brittons who remained there adopted the language and culture, while in
>>>> Wales and Cornwall, at the time, this did not happen.
>>>
>>> There's an interesting book called The Tribes of Britain which goes into
>>> this. It's a bit out of date as it came out before the widespread use of
>>> DNA analysis to study population movements, but is broadly accurate. One
>>> of the points it makes it is that invaders tended to displace the ruling
>>> hierarchy, who retreated generally westwards, but the bulk of the
>>> population stayed put and just adapted to the new masters. After all it
>>> made little difference to the average peasant who the occupant of the
>>> local manor house was. Thus the so-called Celtic Fringe is a more or
>>> less a fantasy.
>>
>> Something that amuses me is the scottish governments promotion of gaelic
>> as a national language whereas in fact it was a dialect of welsh spoken in the
>> central belt before scots supplanted it. Gaelic was spoken in the glens and
>> western isles.
>>
> Names of Gaelic origin extend well past the central belt with a great
> deal of intermingling. On the East side there is also plenty of Norse
> influence. Cumbric died out centuries ago while Gaelic and Gaeilge
> continue to be imported into West Central Scotland from the
> Gàidhealtachd and Gaeltacht.
> As for the "masters", Norman French is still part of Westminster
> Parliamentary procedure.

Even pre 1066 a language adjascent to English had already become
established as a prestige langauage in Scotland and its use became
common in the lowlands. After 1066, it evolved along a different path
from English, but after English became re-established south of the
border, the Scottish variant, under sustained influence, adopted more
and more characteristics of English. That language is variously called
Doric or Scotts, and ended up as the language of Robbie Burns. There
remains a lot of debate as to whether it justifies the identity as a
language in its own right as it is now so close to standard English.
Certainly historically the case was strong, but today not so much.

Robin

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 18:32:52 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 01.02.23 17:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> It didn't get squeezed out , it got squeezed into English.
>
>Those were two distinct parallel processes. English borrowed a large
>vocabulary from Norman French, but assimilated them into the existing
>English language, retaining the grammar and syntax of English, and the

Not for long. The grammar of Anglo saxon is far closed to the complexity of
german than it is english.

>modern English words, there are something like 2 that are not either
>Anglo Saxon or Norse, and highest placed word of French origin is
>something like 45th on the list.

I'll take your word for it but 45th seems low to me

>At the same time, the use of Norman French as a living and everyday
>language within England atrophed and eventually ceased, with only a few
>remnants surviving in fosilised usage (notably in a few parts of
>Parliamentary procedure).

And the crown - Dieu et mon droit.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:22:45 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 01.02.23 20:08, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> Names of Gaelic origin extend well past the central belt with a great
>> deal of intermingling. On the East side there is also plenty of Norse
>> influence. Cumbric died out centuries ago while Gaelic and Gaeilge
>> continue to be imported into West Central Scotland from the
>> Gàidhealtachd and Gaeltacht.
>> As for the "masters", Norman French is still part of Westminster
>> Parliamentary procedure.
>
>Even pre 1066 a language adjascent to English had already become
>established as a prestige langauage in Scotland and its use became
>common in the lowlands. After 1066, it evolved along a different path
>from English, but after English became re-established south of the
>border, the Scottish variant, under sustained influence, adopted more
>and more characteristics of English. That language is variously called
>Doric or Scotts, and ended up as the language of Robbie Burns. There
>remains a lot of debate as to whether it justifies the identity as a
>language in its own right as it is now so close to standard English.
>Certainly historically the case was strong, but today not so much.

If you can't understand a lot of something spoken and/or written down without
help then its fair to say its a seperate language. Robbie Burns' poems are
somewhat opaque to modern english speakers - certainly I can't understand a lot
of his writing without google at hand - so I think its fair to say scots is
a seperate language to english and not simply a dialect. Swedish and Norwegian
are probably much more mutually intelligable, ditto Czech and Slovakian.

On 02.02.23 10:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:22:45 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 01.02.23 20:08, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> Names of Gaelic origin extend well past the central belt with a great
>>> deal of intermingling. On the East side there is also plenty of Norse
>>> influence. Cumbric died out centuries ago while Gaelic and Gaeilge
>>> continue to be imported into West Central Scotland from the
>>> Gàidhealtachd and Gaeltacht.
>>> As for the "masters", Norman French is still part of Westminster
>>> Parliamentary procedure.
>>
>> Even pre 1066 a language adjascent to English had already become
>> established as a prestige langauage in Scotland and its use became
>> common in the lowlands. After 1066, it evolved along a different path
>>from English, but after English became re-established south of the
>> border, the Scottish variant, under sustained influence, adopted more
>> and more characteristics of English. That language is variously called
>> Doric or Scotts, and ended up as the language of Robbie Burns. There
>> remains a lot of debate as to whether it justifies the identity as a
>> language in its own right as it is now so close to standard English.
>> Certainly historically the case was strong, but today not so much.
>
> If you can't understand a lot of something spoken and/or written down without
> help then its fair to say its a seperate language. Robbie Burns' poems are
> somewhat opaque to modern english speakers - certainly I can't understand a lot
> of his writing without google at hand - so I think its fair to say scots is
> a seperate language to english and not simply a dialect. Swedish and Norwegian
> are probably much more mutually intelligable, ditto Czech and Slovakian.

While I think it is correct to say that Scots was a separate language in
the past, the centuries of strong influence from more standard English
has caused much of what made it distinct fall out of use. Burns was
writing over 200 years ago, and in the interval the actual way people
use language in that part of Scotland has become far far closer to
standard English to the point where I'm not convinced describing it as a
distinct language makes much sense anymore.

Robin

On 02.02.23 10:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 18:32:52 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 01.02.23 17:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> It didn't get squeezed out , it got squeezed into English.
>>
>> Those were two distinct parallel processes. English borrowed a large
>> vocabulary from Norman French, but assimilated them into the existing
>> English language, retaining the grammar and syntax of English, and the
>
> Not for long. The grammar of Anglo saxon is far closed to the complexity of
> german than it is english.
>
>> modern English words, there are something like 2 that are not either
>> Anglo Saxon or Norse, and highest placed word of French origin is
>> something like 45th on the list.
>
> I'll take your word for it but 45th seems low to me

Taking the list at [1], the highest ranked word derived from French that
I can see is "just", at number 57 (based on the OEC ranking).

[1] see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_common_words_in_English

Robin