On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have very
>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the SNP
>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>
>
>It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own

Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
pre-empire USA.

On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have very
>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the SNP
>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>
>>
>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>
> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
> pre-empire USA.
>

What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
with the USA?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:03:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have very
>little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the SNP
>like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.

Or, like South Africa, become a de facto one-party state.

Mark

On 03/03/2023 10:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

> in reality a loose coalition of people who have very
> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly

Leaving everyone else stuck with the mess...

--
Arthur Figgis

On 03/03/2023 12:02, Graeme Wall wrote:

> What's India got to do with Africa?

Ask Sunak, Patel, Braverman etc.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 03/03/2023 18:25, Arthur Figgis wrote:
> On 03/03/2023 10:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> in reality a loose coalition of people who have very
>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they
>> ever
>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly
>
> Leaving everyone else stuck with the mess...
>

Sounds familiar…
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 27.02.23 14:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tti3r6$38d6c$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:23:16 on Mon, 27 Feb
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 27.02.23 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ttfl5d$2tvae$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:00:27 on Sun, 26 Feb
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 26.02.23 12:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttfdj6$2t6qr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:16 on Sun, 26
>>>>> Feb  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily  the  same  as the National Rail fare between A
>>>>>>>>>>> and B (via  perhaps  D). So the fare  you are discounting by
>>>>>>>>>>> a third won't  be the  same. But at least it'd be  clear
>>>>>>>>>>> which of the two to  discount.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking
>>>>>>>>>>> to  one  mode  all the way, the undiscounted fare is
>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to  know especially  when  the system can't tell
>>>>>>>>>>> where you made the  modal  circumstances there are no
>>>>>>>>>>> barriers to go through where  you change  modes).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations
>>>>>>>>>> like  Farringdon  and Stratford.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There may be other  locations not provisioned as well.
>>>>>>>>> Wimbledon  probably has them (hence  the complicated, and
>>>>>>>>> confusing for some  visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing  there. Does Stratford have them
>>>>>>>>> for the  cross-platform changes  with the Central Line (I
>>>>>>>>> haven't been to  look at  that specific  aspect).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are
>>>>>>>> treated  as  one.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with
>>>>>>> Oyster  [or  CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere
>>>>>>> outside  the Oyster  or CCC area, hence needing independent
>>>>>>> ticketing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the
>>>>>> first/last  (depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones
>>>>>> rather than at a  central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New
>>>>>> Barnet, Elstree &  Borhamwood etc.
>>>
>>>>>  No, you need it wherever people actually physically change trains.
>>>>
>>>> If you change trains at St Pancras, you pass through a gateline,
>>>> which  does the job of validating.
>>>  Not when you change trains at SPILL !! (I hope I've explained this
>>> fully  by now).
>>
>> You haven't. You've made some vague assertions that this is important
>> and hand waved away any suggestion that it might not be a very good
>> idea. What actual journey would this be useful for?
>
> I will answer this in the other subthread.

Approachign a week on, still no suggestion of any such journey. It makes
one wonder if this hypothesised significance actually evaporates into
irrelevance under any scrutiny.

Robin

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have
>very
>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the
>SNP
>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>>
>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
>> pre-empire USA.
>>
>
>What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>with the USA?

Are you fucking serious? Do you know any history?

In message <tttncn$nq8f$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:04:21 on Fri, 3 Mar
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 27.02.23 14:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tti3r6$38d6c$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:23:16 on Mon, 27 Feb
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 27.02.23 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ttfl5d$2tvae$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:00:27 on Sun, 26
>>>>Feb 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 26.02.23 12:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ttfdj6$2t6qr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:16 on Sun, 26
>>>>>>Feb  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>necessarily  the  same  as the National Rail fare between
>>>>>>>>>>>>A and B (via  perhaps  D). So the fare  you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>discounting by a third won't  be the  same. But at least
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>>sticking to  one  mode  all the way, the undiscounted
>>>>>>>>>>>>fare is difficult to  know especially  when  the system
>>>>>>>>>>>>can't tell where you made the  modal  circumstances there
>>>>>>>>>>>>are no barriers to go through where  you change  modes).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations
>>>>>>>>>>>like  Farringdon  and Stratford.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There may be other  locations not provisioned as well.
>>>>>>>>>>Wimbledon  probably has them (hence  the complicated, and
>>>>>>>>>>confusing for some  visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>>>>>>in/out/sideways when changing  there. Does Stratford have
>>>>>>>>>>them for the  cross-platform changes  with the Central Line
>>>>>>>>>>(I haven't been to  look at  that specific  aspect).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are
>>>>>>>>>treated  as  one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with
>>>>>>>>Oyster  [or  CCC], and changing onto a train bound for
>>>>>>>>somewhere outside  the Oyster  or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the
>>>>>>>first/last  (depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones
>>>>>>>rather than at a  central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New
>>>>>>>Barnet, Elstree &  Borhamwood etc.
>>>>
>>>>>>  No, you need it wherever people actually physically change trains.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you change trains at St Pancras, you pass through a gateline,
>>>>>which  does the job of validating.

>>>>  Not when you change trains at SPILL !! (I hope I've explained
>>>>this fully  by now).
>>>
>>> You haven't. You've made some vague assertions that this is
>>>important and hand waved away any suggestion that it might not be a
>>>very good idea. What actual journey would this be useful for?

>> I will answer this in the other subthread.
>
>Approachign a week on, still no suggestion of any such journey.

Too many active threads, and I wanted to give a fully argued case...

....but if you want a taster in a hurry: Season ticket from (say) Royston
- served almost exclusively by only Thameslink - to London Terminals,
then using Oyster for any onward legs. Which could well be cheaper if
the holder normally works near Kings/Cross St Pancras, but needs to
venture further sometimes.

Monthly season £518 vs Travelcard £665, so £147 in the kitty.

Other travel patterns may apply (for example I don't think you can even
get a Flexi-Season Travelcard).

>It makes one wonder if this hypothesised significance actually
>evaporates into irrelevance under any scrutiny.
>
>Robin

--
Roland Perry

On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have
>> very
>>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the
>> SNP
>>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>>>
>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>
>>
>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>> with the USA?
>
> Are you fucking serious? Do you know any history?
>

Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.

The questions are very simple:

1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
above, and how do you fit Modi into it?

2) What does pre-empire USA mean?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:39:48 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a
>racist
>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>
>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention
>the
>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>>> with the USA?
>>
>> Are you fucking serious? Do you know any history?
>>
>
>Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>
>The questions are very simple:
>
>1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>above, and how do you fit Modi into it?

What a shame there's no usenet equivalent of crayon.

Both india and plenty of sub saharan africa were part of the British Empire.

See, not that complicated is it?

>2) What does pre-empire USA mean?

From the early 17th century until 1776 the eastern USA was a british colony.
That was before Britain had what could be called an empire.

I hope thats clear but if not maybe you can find a Peppa Pig version.

On 04/03/2023 16:00, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 15:39:48 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a
>> racist
>>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>>
>>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention
>> the
>>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>>>> with the USA?
>>>
>>> Are you fucking serious? Do you know any history?
>>>
>>
>> Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>>
>> The questions are very simple:
>>
>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>
> What a shame there's no usenet equivalent of crayon.
>
> Both india and plenty of sub saharan africa were part of the British Empire.
>
> See, not that complicated is it?

So was Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Fiji, your point is?

>
>> 2) What does pre-empire USA mean?
>
> From the early 17th century until 1776 the eastern USA was a british colony.
> That was before Britain had what could be called an empire.

Actually 13 colonies, which was the empire. Also, of course, before 1776
there was no USA.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04.03.23 11:23, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tttncn$nq8f$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:04:21 on Fri, 3 Mar
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 27.02.23 14:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tti3r6$38d6c$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:23:16 on Mon, 27 Feb
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 27.02.23 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttfl5d$2tvae$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:00:27 on Sun, 26
>>>>> Feb  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 26.02.23 12:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ttfdj6$2t6qr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:16 on Sun, 26
>>>>>>> Feb  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily  the  same  as the National Rail fare between A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and B (via  perhaps  D). So the fare  you are discounting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a third won't  be the  same. But at least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sticking  to  one  mode  all the way, the undiscounted fare
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is  difficult to  know especially  when  the system can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell  where you made the  modal  circumstances there are no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> barriers to go through where  you change  modes).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations
>>>>>>>>>>>> like  Farringdon  and Stratford.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There may be other  locations not provisioned as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> Wimbledon  probably has them (hence  the complicated, and
>>>>>>>>>>> confusing for some  visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing  there. Does Stratford have
>>>>>>>>>>> them for the  cross-platform changes  with the Central Line
>>>>>>>>>>> (I haven't been to  look at  that specific  aspect).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are
>>>>>>>>>> treated  as  one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with
>>>>>>>>> Oyster  [or  CCC], and changing onto a train bound for
>>>>>>>>> somewhere outside  the Oyster  or CCC area, hence needing
>>>>>>>>> independent ticketing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the
>>>>>>>> first/last  (depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones
>>>>>>>> rather than at a  central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New
>>>>>>>> Barnet, Elstree &  Borhamwood etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  No, you need it wherever people actually physically change trains.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you change trains at St Pancras, you pass through a gateline,
>>>>>> which  does the job of validating.
>
>>>>>  Not when you change trains at SPILL !! (I hope I've explained this
>>>>> fully  by now).
>>>>
>>>> You haven't. You've made some vague assertions that this is
>>>> important  and hand waved away any suggestion that it might not be a
>>>> very good  idea. What actual journey would this be useful for?
>
>>>  I will answer this in the other subthread.
>>
>> Approachign a week on, still no suggestion of any such journey.
>
> Too many active threads, and I wanted to give a fully argued case...
>
> ...but if you want a taster in a hurry: Season ticket from (say) Royston
> - served almost exclusively by only Thameslink - to London Terminals,
> then using Oyster for any onward legs. Which could well be cheaper if
> the holder normally works near Kings/Cross St Pancras, but needs to
> venture further sometimes.

So we're back to "stations exist where trains from outside Oyster also
stop". I might have a season ticket from Gravesend to Woolwich Arsenal,
and occasionally want to make a trip into Central London. Sure, it would
be great if all such stations had super conveneient Oyster readers, but
nothign specific to SPILL.

> Monthly season £518 vs Travelcard £665, so £147 in the kitty.

Or perhaps to Finsbury Park, it's cheaper there.

> Other travel patterns may apply (for example I don't think you can even
> get a Flexi-Season Travelcard).

If it's a Travelcard, then Oyster readers are irrelelevant.

Robin

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 09:59:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 17:50:34 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:16:11 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 19:00:42 +0000
>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:48:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>And yet you still end up with a party the majority didn't vote for being in
>>
>>>>>power for 15 years. So the scottish system doesn't work any better either.
>>>>>
>>>>It does. Parties generally work by consensus; at present there is a
>>>>slim majority of pro-independence parties as a result of the
>>>
>>>Last time I looked the independence vote went 55-45 against so if the system
>>>worked there'd be a slim majority of unionists in the parliament.
>>>
>>That was getting on for 9 years ago. The composition of the Scottish
>>Parliament was decided by a more recent vote.
>
>According to the most recent poll:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
>
>support for independance has started dipping below 40% a few times recently.
>Yes, 9 years is a long time in politics.
>
That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
counted. They are also outwith the general polling range.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have
>>> very
>>>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the
>>> SNP
>>>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>>>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>>>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>>>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>>>>
>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>>> with the USA?
>>

>>
>
> Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>
> The questions are very simple:
>
> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>
To be honest I think he has a point,
Since India regained its independence a proportion of its people have got
on and set the country on the path to become a commercial nation, true
there are huge inequalities but our grandfathers who were around in the
days of the Raj would be choking on their Pink Gins to find how big Indian
investment is in the UK now.
In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern themselves
have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
raising funds.
Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked such things as
aqueducts a millennia ago. Even when those charities provide pumps they
often get wrecked or stolen but they don’t mention that the reason the
little girl has to carry a bucket is because the adults around have nicked
the pump for scrap.
<https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway/>
There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress
And now South Africa where African rule could be said to have a head start
compared to others is after initial promise being deconstructed , look at
how their suburban railways have been wrecked
by criminal gangs.
<https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motoring/428932-total-destruction-photos-of-the-horrific-state-of-south-africas-train-system.html>

GH

On 05/03/2023 22:00, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have
>>>> very
>>>>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>>>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>>>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the
>>>> SNP
>>>>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>>>>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>>>>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>>>>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>>>>>
>>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
>>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
>>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>>>> with the USA?
>>>
>
>>>
>>
>> Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>>
>> The questions are very simple:
>>
>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>>
> To be honest I think he has a point,
> Since India regained its independence a proportion of its people have got
> on and set the country on the path to become a commercial nation, true
> there are huge inequalities but our grandfathers who were around in the
> days of the Raj would be choking on their Pink Gins to find how big Indian
> investment is in the UK now.

India had several hundred years as an advanced civilisation before we
stuck our noses in. Note India didn't regain it's independence, it was
never an independent state in the past. Before the British, French and
Portuguese arrived it was largely a series of Persian colonies.

> In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern themselves
> have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
> individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
> running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
> raising funds.

Agreed, tribalism and corruption are endemic in Africa but that is a
different argument to the technological issues that Neil was quoting.
Large parts of Southern and Eastern Africa had no need for technological
advances because hunter-gatherer and nomadic life-styles were easy and
the climate, for the most part, benign.

> Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked such things as
> aqueducts a millennia ago. Even when those charities provide pumps they
> often get wrecked or stolen but they don’t mention that the reason the
> little girl has to carry a bucket is because the adults around have nicked
> the pump for scrap.
> <https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway/>
> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress

Tribalism.

> And now South Africa where African rule could be said to have a head start
> compared to others is after initial promise being deconstructed , look at
> how their suburban railways have been wrecked
> by criminal gangs.
> <https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motoring/428932-total-destruction-photos-of-the-horrific-state-of-south-africas-train-system.html>
>

Problem with India is Modi is heading down the same route with
corruption and intolerance increasing exponentially.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 05.03.23 23:00, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have
>>>> very
>>>>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>>>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>>>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the
>>>> SNP
>>>>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>>>>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>>>>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>>>>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>>>>>
>>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
>>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
>>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>>>> with the USA?
>>>
>
>>>
>>
>> Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>>
>> The questions are very simple:
>>
>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>>
> To be honest I think he has a point,
> Since India regained its independence a proportion of its people have got
> on and set the country on the path to become a commercial nation, true
> there are huge inequalities but our grandfathers who were around in the
> days of the Raj would be choking on their Pink Gins to find how big Indian
> investment is in the UK now.
> In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern themselves
> have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
> individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
> running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
> raising funds.
> Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked such things as
> aqueducts a millennia ago. Even when those charities provide pumps they
> often get wrecked or stolen but they don’t mention that the reason the
> little girl has to carry a bucket is because the adults around have nicked
> the pump for scrap.
> <https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway/>
> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress
> And now South Africa where African rule could be said to have a head start
> compared to others is after initial promise being deconstructed , look at
> how their suburban railways have been wrecked
> by criminal gangs.
> <https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motoring/428932-total-destruction-photos-of-the-horrific-state-of-south-africas-train-system.html>

I think there is an element of how various countries were run in the
period before independence, and how independence came about, that feeds
into this. Specifically, the extent to which there was a genuine
involvement in the local populations in the countries in the governing
process prior to independence.

If you look at the Commonwealth nations that have been politically
stable and economically successful, they tend to be the ones that had an
established administrative and governmental system in place before
independence, with people from the country running affairs, and having
thigns like elections based on local candidates from opposing local
parties, being elected by a population engaged in the democratic
process, based on the needs of the country.

The countries that have done less well tend to be those where the actual
administration and government prior to independence was top down,
imposed from London, often with imported administrators either from the
UK or from other parts of the Empire, and with little engagement with
the local population. Where local political organisations did exist,
they were largely of the from "British go home", rather than based on
actual domestic issues and wanting to govern effectively for the local
populations.

Ultimately a large part of the problem many African nations faced with
the process of gaining independence was that it happened too abruptly.
The time was not taken to develop the institutions of government within
the countries that the actual people were engaged with, and that had
established stability and a track record of doing things properly. The
problem is, that process takes a generation at least, and the time
between Britain deciding it wanted out of the colonial ruler game and
when it actually packed up and left was too short. Had Britain made a
decision, say at the time of the Balfour Declaration (the 1926 one not
the 1917 one), that all colonies should be put on a path to responsible
government and independence, it might have been possible to get the job
done in the time available.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 05.03.23 23:00, Marland wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people who have
>>>>> very
>>>>>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if they ever
>>>>>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and scottish
>>>>>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle with the
>>>>> SNP
>>>>>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good at winning
>>>>>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different skills set.
>>>>>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the corrupt ANC
>>>>>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate their own
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call me a racist
>>>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country swirling down
>>>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while conveniently
>>>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to mention the
>>>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you thinking of
>>>>> with the USA?
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>>>
>>> The questions are very simple:
>>>
>>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>>>
>> To be honest I think he has a point,
>> Since India regained its independence a proportion of its people have got
>> on and set the country on the path to become a commercial nation, true
>> there are huge inequalities but our grandfathers who were around in the
>> days of the Raj would be choking on their Pink Gins to find how big Indian
>> investment is in the UK now.
>> In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern themselves
>> have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
>> individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
>> running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
>> raising funds.
>> Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked such things as
>> aqueducts a millennia ago. Even when those charities provide pumps they
>> often get wrecked or stolen but they don’t mention that the reason the
>> little girl has to carry a bucket is because the adults around have nicked
>> the pump for scrap.
>> <https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway/>
>> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress
>> And now South Africa where African rule could be said to have a head start
>> compared to others is after initial promise being deconstructed , look at
>> how their suburban railways have been wrecked
>> by criminal gangs.
>> <https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motoring/428932-total-destruction-photos-of-the-horrific-state-of-south-africas-train-system.html>
>
> I think there is an element of how various countries were run in the
> period before independence, and how independence came about, that feeds
> into this. Specifically, the extent to which there was a genuine
> involvement in the local populations in the countries in the governing
> process prior to independence.
>
> If you look at the Commonwealth nations that have been politically
> stable and economically successful, they tend to be the ones that had an
> established administrative and governmental system in place before
> independence, with people from the country running affairs, and having
> thigns like elections based on local candidates from opposing local
> parties, being elected by a population engaged in the democratic
> process, based on the needs of the country.
>
> The countries that have done less well tend to be those where the actual
> administration and government prior to independence was top down,
> imposed from London, often with imported administrators either from the
> UK or from other parts of the Empire, and with little engagement with
> the local population. Where local political organisations did exist,
> they were largely of the from "British go home", rather than based on
> actual domestic issues and wanting to govern effectively for the local
> populations.
>
> Ultimately a large part of the problem many African nations faced with
> the process of gaining independence was that it happened too abruptly.
> The time was not taken to develop the institutions of government within
> the countries that the actual people were engaged with, and that had
> established stability and a track record of doing things properly. The
> problem is, that process takes a generation at least, and the time
> between Britain deciding it wanted out of the colonial ruler game and
> when it actually packed up and left was too short. Had Britain made a
> decision, say at the time of the Balfour Declaration (the 1926 one not
> the 1917 one), that all colonies should be put on a path to responsible
> government and independence, it might have been possible to get the job
> done in the time available.
>

Yes, very true.

South Africa is a special case, of course, because it had long ceased to be
a colony of a foreign power, but was ruled by a dominant local minority
that kept the majority out of all positions of power and even a good
education. When that majority did finally gain power, it wasn't well
schooled in either government or running large businesses. But it had high
expectations of soon sharing the wealth and comfortable lifestyles long
enjoyed by the minority. When, for most, that wealth didn't arrive rapidly
by legitimate means, those who could helped themselves to it by any means
available.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 18:01:12 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 04/03/2023 16:00, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>>
>> What a shame there's no usenet equivalent of crayon.
>>
>> Both india and plenty of sub saharan africa were part of the British Empire.
>>
>> See, not that complicated is it?
>
>So was Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Fiji, your point is?

There's a concept of following a thread. You should try it sometime.

On Sun, 05 Mar 2023 02:40:48 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 09:59:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 17:50:34 +0000
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:16:11 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 19:00:42 +0000
>>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:48:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>And yet you still end up with a party the majority didn't vote for being
>in
>>>
>>>>>>power for 15 years. So the scottish system doesn't work any better either.
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>It does. Parties generally work by consensus; at present there is a
>>>>>slim majority of pro-independence parties as a result of the
>>>>
>>>>Last time I looked the independence vote went 55-45 against so if the system
>
>>>>worked there'd be a slim majority of unionists in the parliament.
>>>>
>>>That was getting on for 9 years ago. The composition of the Scottish
>>>Parliament was decided by a more recent vote.
>>
>>According to the most recent poll:
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
>>
>>support for independance has started dipping below 40% a few times recently.
>>Yes, 9 years is a long time in politics.
>>
>That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are

IOW a standard poll.

On 06.03.23 09:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 05/03/2023 22:00, Marland wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/03/2023 09:49, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 12:02:03 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/03/2023 11:31, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 10:17:35 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Seems to me the SNP are in reality a loose coalition of people
>>>>>>>> who have
>>>>> very
>>>>>>>> little in common other than wanting independence. As you say, if
>>>>>>>> they ever
>>>>>>>> got independence the wheels would come off pretty quickly and
>>>>>>>> scottish
>>>>>>>> politics would go back to labour-tory within an electoral cycle
>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>> SNP
>>>>>>>> like UKIP fading into insignificance, job done.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's usually a good thing if that happens: parties that are good
>>>>>>> at winning
>>>>>>> independence are seldom good at governing. It's a different
>>>>>>> skills set.
>>>>>>> Look at what's happening in South Africa at the moment — the
>>>>>>> corrupt ANC
>>>>>>> has driven Eskom into bankruptcy. Industries have to generate
>>>>>>> their own
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tbh IMO south africa is just reverting to sub saharan type. Call
>>>>>> me a racist
>>>>>> if you want but black rule usually seems to involve a country
>>>>>> swirling down
>>>>>> the toilet bowl though the apoligists will blame Empire while
>>>>>> conveniently
>>>>>> ignoring India with its space program and nuclear weapons not to
>>>>>> mention the
>>>>>> pre-empire USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What's India got to do with Africa? And which empire are you
>>>>> thinking of
>>>>> with the USA?
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lost it again Neil? You always start swearing when you've lost the plot.
>>>
>>> The questions are very simple:
>>>
>>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>>>
>> To be honest I think he has a point,
>> Since India regained its independence  a proportion of its people have
>> got
>> on and set the country on the path to become a commercial nation, true
>> there are huge inequalities but our grandfathers who were around in the
>> days of the Raj would be choking on their Pink Gins to find how big
>> Indian
>> investment is in the UK now.
>
> India had several hundred years as an advanced civilisation before we
> stuck our noses in. Note India didn't regain it's independence, it was
> never an independent state in the past. Before the British, French and
> Portuguese arrived it was largely a series of Persian colonies.

It's also worth noting that even during British rule, a lot of the work
of actually running the country was done by Indians. While Britain took
the top level decisions, the actual job of running the country was
already domestic to a much greater extent than in african colonies. That
meant the process of handing over control in 1947 involved less
upheaval, because the country could continue to run itself as it had
already been doing.

>> In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern
>> themselves
>> have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
>> individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
>> running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
>> raising funds.
>
> Agreed, tribalism and corruption are endemic in Africa but that is a
> different argument to the technological issues that Neil was quoting.
> Large parts of Southern and Eastern Africa had no need for technological
> advances because hunter-gatherer and nomadic life-styles were easy and
> the climate, for the most part, benign.

Except that that kind of lifestyle has always, since the dawn of
humanity, been accompanied by low level unending fighting between tribes
over who gets which bits of land to hunt/gather on. When the best
weapons available are spears, traditional ways of dealing with these
problems work (commonly such societies fight with the objective of
capturing members of the other side as slaves/prisoners to work for them
rather than killing them). Once you give these people access to modern
weapons, though, the result is what we saw in Rwanda in 1994.

>> Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked  such things as
>> aqueducts a millennia ago.  Even when those charities provide pumps they
>> often get wrecked or stolen but they don’t mention that the reason the
>> little girl has to carry a bucket is because the adults around have
>> nicked
>> the pump for scrap.
>> <https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway/>
>> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them
>> progress
>
> Tribalism.

Tribalism exists in every part of the world, we just use different names
for it. Scottish, Welsh, Flemmish, Catalan nationalist movements, for
example. Tribalism is a minor issue in successful democratic countries
because although the tribal identities exist, the majority of people
believe the government is legitimate, and believe their best interests
are served working with, not against it. The problem is, in many African
countries, there is a far lower level of belief in the legitimacy of the
institutions of government. If you believe the government and the state
is not really legitimate, even if you work within it, you are more
likely to see it as a source of personal enrichment, and less likely to
regard it as important to work towards maintaining it for the greater good.

>> And now South Africa where African rule could be said to have a head
>> start
>> compared to others is after initial promise being deconstructed , look at
>> how their suburban railways have been wrecked
>> by criminal gangs.
>> <https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motoring/428932-total-destruction-photos-of-the-horrific-state-of-south-africas-train-system.html>
>>
>
> Problem with India is Modi is heading down the same route with
> corruption and intolerance increasing exponentially.

I would hope that the rise of successful international companies with a
lot of money based in India and of an educated middle class is likely to
create conditions where the more extreme ideologies are going to be
resisted, but it remains to be seen whether the political institutions
can hold the democratic process together.

Robin

On 5 Mar 2023 22:00:47 GMT
Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern themselves
>have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
>individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
>running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
>raising funds.

While their leaders simultaniously flog off their natural resources to China
which is slowly creating its own african empire. I suspect by the time the
african leaders realise the chinese have them by the balls it'll be way too
late.

>Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked such things as
>aqueducts a millennia ago. Even when those charities provide pumps they

The babylonians managed it 4 millenia ago and they probably weren't the first.

>There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress

Transfer the population to the caribbean or the continental USA and the exact
same thing happens. Endless african americans whining about whiteys racism
holding them back while 1st generation indians and east asians there absolutely
smash it career wise.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 08:22:45 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway
>/>
>> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress
>
>
>Tribalism.

Plenty of tribalism in europe yet we somehow managed to overcome it enough to
get where we are today.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:45:07 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>The countries that have done less well tend to be those where the actual
>administration and government prior to independence was top down,
>imposed from London, often with imported administrators either from the
>UK or from other parts of the Empire, and with little engagement with
>the local population. Where local political organisations did exist,

You mean like australia and NZ? Oh, wait...

>Ultimately a large part of the problem many African nations faced with
>the process of gaining independence was that it happened too abruptly.
>The time was not taken to develop the institutions of government within
>the countries that the actual people were engaged with, and that had

Rubbish. The governmental systems were all set up, they simply had to
continue them.

>when it actually packed up and left was too short. Had Britain made a
>decision, say at the time of the Balfour Declaration (the 1926 one not
>the 1917 one), that all colonies should be put on a path to responsible
>government and independence, it might have been possible to get the job
>done in the time available.

Yeah right. The exact same problem exists in the french and belgium colonies
in africa. Black africans can't govern themselves properly, end of. There may be
may reasons why but ultimately they're not capable of it.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On 5 Mar 2023 22:00:47 GMT
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> In contrast African states 60 years after they started to govern themselves
>> have barely got off the starting blocks, true there some wealthy
>> individuals but it doesn’t get shared around much and basic things like
>> running water in some areas seems to be dependent on European charities
>> raising funds.
>
> While their leaders simultaniously flog off their natural resources to China
> which is slowly creating its own african empire. I suspect by the time the
> african leaders realise the chinese have them by the balls it'll be way too
> late.

Not for those African leaders and their families, who will probably be
living lives of luxury in Dubai, Singapore or the Caribbean.

>
>> Walk 5 miles to a water source ? The Arab peoples cracked such things as
>> aqueducts a millennia ago. Even when those charities provide pumps they
>
> The babylonians managed it 4 millenia ago and they probably weren't the first.
>
>> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them progress
>
> Transfer the population to the caribbean or the continental USA and the exact
> same thing happens. Endless african americans whining about whiteys racism
> holding them back while 1st generation indians and east asians there absolutely
> smash it career wise.

True