On 26/02/2023 14:51, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 26/02/2023 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <88CcnXQ9QpMVomb-nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 11:16:24 on Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single
>>>> issue vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration,
>>>> £350m for  the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater
>>>> federalism"; as well  as stuff to do with a golden future making
>>>> independent trade deals and  getting to keep more of our own fish.
>>>
>>> And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a joke,
>>> but "the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was a real
>>> thing.
>>
>> Of all the dozens of disparate reasons (including "it means we'll
>> be allowed to ban the export of live animals", and "Tampon Tax")
>> I haven't heard that particular one before.
>
> Given, at the time, they already had been, I can't see what attraction
> that would have had.

It (was belived that it) would have stopped Corbyn (re)nationalising all
the things.
--
Arthur Figgis

On 27/02/2023 12:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tti54m$38mm0$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:45:26 on Mon, 27 Feb
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 27/02/2023 08:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ttfrlg$2ujsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:51:28 on Sun, 26 Feb
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 26/02/2023 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <88CcnXQ9QpMVomb-nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 11:16:24 on Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single
>>>>>>> issue  vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-
>>>>>>> immigration, £350m  for  the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever
>>>>>>> greater federalism";  as well  as stuff to do with a golden future
>>>>>>> making independent trade  deals and  getting to keep more of our own
>>>>>>> fish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a joke,
>>>>>> but "the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was a real
>>>>>> thing.
>>>
>>>>>   Of all the dozens of disparate reasons (including "it means we'll
>>>>> be allowed to ban the export of live animals", and "Tampon Tax")
>>>>> I haven't heard that particular one before.
>>>>
>>>> Given, at the time, they already had been, I can't see what attraction
>>>> that would have had.
>
>>>  There would have been an attraction to those who dislike
>>> privatisation,  in writing on the side of a bus (or wherever) "No
>>> more EU-inspired  privatisation if you vote Leave".
>
>>>  [And it would even have been true, we'd have just had home-grown
>>>   privatisation instead].
>>
>> What, apart from the NHS, was there left to privatise by 2016?
>
> If that were the case, people would be voting against spilt milk. Rather
> than milk yet to be split at the EU's alleged behest.

https://www.etf-europe.org/transport-workers-and-unions-rally-for-democracy-etf-protests-european-commissions-attempt-to-force-rail-liberalisation/
<quote>
On 28 February, the European Transport Federation (ETF) will take action
in Brussels to protest the European Commission’s undemocratic attempt to
force the liberalisation of public transport by rail and road behind the
backs of the Council and the European Parliament.
</quote>
--
Arthur Figgis

On 25/02/2023 19:25, Tweed wrote:
> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.

I really objected to being made an EU citizen without my consent.

On 27/02/2023 15:38, Sam Wilson wrote:

> (FTAOD I don’t think it would be at all sensible to hold a referendum on
> Scottish independence unless there were well over 60% support for
> independence in public polling, and I can’t see that happening any time
> soon.)

Just make it a national rather than local vote...

--
Arthur Figgis

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:38:02 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> There seems to be a big problem with people such as yourself only believing
>>> something is democratic if you agree with the outcome of the vote. Thats not
>>> how democracy works. I'm not happy with the SNP having most of the seats in
>>> scotland but thats how the vote went, end of. As I said, suck it up.
>>
>> I’m glad that you think it would be acceptable for Scotland to gain
>> independence if the majority of the Scottish electorate were to vote for it
>> in a referendum. I don’t get the impression that you’d accept it with good
>>
>> grace, but what the heck.
>
> No I wouldn't accept it with good grace as I wouldn't want half my family
> living in a seperate country. But I *would* accept it if that was the outcome
> of the vote and wouldn't whinge about it forever and a day like remainers do.
>
>> (FTAOD I don’t think it would be at all sensible to hold a referendum on
>> Scottish independence unless there were well over 60% support for
>> independence in public polling, and I can’t see that happening any time
>> soon.)
>
> Given how brexit has split the country I tend to agree.
>
>

The trouble with these big constitutional changes (Brexit or Scottish
independence) is that the losers tend to lose a lot more economically than
the winners gain.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 25/02/2023 19:25, Tweed wrote:
>> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.
>
>
> I really objected to being made an EU citizen without my consent.
>
>
Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being able to stay
in other EU countries for lengthy periods.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:54 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:50:28 +0100
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 27.02.23 11:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 10:38:30 +0000
>>> Brian <Brian@2001.bjforster.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:25:52 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> Thats democracy for you, suck it up.
>>
>>Democracy involves the people being free to object to government
>>policies they don't like. "If you don't like it, suck it up" is not a
>>feature of a democratic system, that's what dictatorships do.
>
>Dictatorships hold referendums and undertake to follow the outcome do they?
>When did this happen?
>
>There seems to be a big problem with people such as yourself only believing
>something is democratic if you agree with the outcome of the vote. Thats not
>how democracy works. I'm not happy with the SNP having most of the seats in
>scotland but thats how the vote went, end of. As I said, suck it up.
>
The SNP and the Scottish Greens have the majority of seats in the
Scottish Parliament because they together had the majority of the
party vote in the PR system designated by Westminster.
They have an even greater majority in the Scottish representation in
Westminster because of the dodgy voting system used for UK Parliament
elections. Extrapolating from the SP vote, you can still expect an SNP
majority in the Scottish bit of Westminster.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 18:16:03 +0000, Arthur Figgis
<afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:

>On 27/02/2023 15:38, Sam Wilson wrote:
>
>> (FTAOD I don’t think it would be at all sensible to hold a referendum on
>> Scottish independence unless there were well over 60% support for
>> independence in public polling, and I can’t see that happening any time
>> soon.)
>
>Just make it a national rather than local vote...
>
The 2014 vote was national. Only the people resident in the relevant
country are entitled to decide the matter; that is why voters in the
UK had no say in the independence of Malta, India, USA etc.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 10:38:56 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <1s0pvhdhsris2vglbv49dk5mg4si6e0c0s@4ax.com>, at 10:21:46 on
>Mon, 27 Feb 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 14:47:08 +0000, Recliner
>><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 13:57:43 +0100, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 26.02.23 12:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttff2h$2teg0$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:16:33 on Sun, 26 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>>>>>>>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>>>>>>>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the first/last
>>>>>>> (depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones rather than at a
>>>>>>> central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New Barnet, Elstree & Borhamwood
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, and this is hardly a new issue. All that's changed is that the ccc
>>>>>> zone has expanded, so the boundary stations are further out. This will
>>>>>> continue, of course. So there will need to be Oyster readers
>>>>>> in-station on
>>>>>> the new boundaries, on platforms and interchange passages, just as there
>>>>>> already are at the previous boundary stations. Strangely enough, TfL had
>>>>>> somehow managed to work this out for itself, without any guidance from
>>>>>> Roland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except you've just admitted they hadn't worked it out, most obviously on
>>>>> the passageway at Farringdon, of course. Let alone all the necessary
>>>>> interchange stations further out. Where I initially mentioned SPILL, but
>>>>> this last few days have been casting the net a bit further out.
>>>>
>>>>Farringdon allows transfer between London Undergronud services and
>>>>Thameslink services without passing through a gateline. That's not
>>>>possible at StP because to get to the Thameslink platforms from the LU
>>>>platforms involves passng through two gatelines.
>>>
>>>Roland wants validators on the TL platforms so TL passengers can touch
>>>in and out of the Oyster zone, switching from/to
>>>some other TL ticket. They will remain on TL, ideally on the same train.
>>>
>>>So, for example, someone coming from Cambridge with a London Terminals
>>>ticket (valid as far as KGX or SPI) and wishing
>>>to continue on the same train to, say, London Bridge, needs to
>>>touch-in at that point, even though they are continuing
>>>on TL. In an ideal world, there would be pads on the train that knew
>>>where they were at the time of the touch, but if
>>>not, distributed along the platform.
>>
>>It seems a huge amount of effort. I know that it can be a pain wishing
>>to travel beyond the validity of your ticket as it affects me quite
>>often when I reach the Z1-6 travelcard limit. I either have to get
>>off, buy a ticket and wait for the next train or buy a ticket online
>>before I reach the change point.
>
>Now think about the ramifications if using capped Oyster/CCC as a
>virtual travelcard. (When you reach the edge of the contactless charging
>area you need to be sure you've touched-in/out as appropriate).
>
>>But my unplanned wanderings are hardly typical of most rail users.
>
>The whole point of all this technology and "trust me I'm a computer I'll
>charge you the correct amount" is aimed squarely at people who want to
>just wander around unencumbered with planning, or needing to guess in
>advance what tickets to buy.

I doubt such people are tat numerous, nor very high up the list of
those the planners are trying to accommodate.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 25/02/2023 19:25, Tweed wrote:
>>> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.
>>
>>
>> I really objected to being made an EU citizen without my consent.
>>
>>
> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being able to stay
> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.

I recently saw a comment in a Twitter thread whose general thrust was “if
you don’t like Brexit why not go an live in a different country”. If it
wasn’t sent from a parody account then the irony was lost on the tweeter.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 27/02/2023 18:39, Tweed wrote:
> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being able to stay
> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.

Will the SNP have as much support in the future? It seems to have
dropped since Sturgeon's resignation and will it fall further now we
seem to know why she resigned.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 27/02/2023 18:39, Tweed wrote:
>> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
>> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
>> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being able to stay
>> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.
>
>
> Will the SNP have as much support in the future? It seems to have
> dropped since Sturgeon's resignation and will it fall further now we
> seem to know why she resigned.
>

I’m told by young people I know in Glasgow that the desire for independence
is very strong amongst the young, and figures I have seen confirm this. Now
this can go two ways - these people remain of that view as they age and
more independence minded youngsters come up behind them. On the other hand
perhaps they change their mind with age and the status quo remains.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:38:02 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> There seems to be a big problem with people such as yourself only believing
>>> something is democratic if you agree with the outcome of the vote. Thats not
>>> how democracy works. I'm not happy with the SNP having most of the seats in
>>> scotland but thats how the vote went, end of. As I said, suck it up.
>>
>> I’m glad that you think it would be acceptable for Scotland to gain
>> independence if the majority of the Scottish electorate were to vote for it
>> in a referendum. I don’t get the impression that you’d accept it with good
>>
>> grace, but what the heck.
>
> No I wouldn't accept it with good grace as I wouldn't want half my family
> living in a seperate country. But I *would* accept it if that was the outcome
> of the vote and wouldn't whinge about it forever and a day like remainers do.

Glad you’d get over it, but of course they live in a different country
already, FSVO country.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 27/02/2023 15:38, Sam Wilson wrote:
>
>> (FTAOD I don’t think it would be at all sensible to hold a referendum on
>> Scottish independence unless there were well over 60% support for
>> independence in public polling, and I can’t see that happening any time
>> soon.)
>
> Just make it a national rather than local vote...

Nice!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 15:38:02 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> There seems to be a big problem with people such as yourself only believing
>>>> something is democratic if you agree with the outcome of the vote. Thats not
>>>> how democracy works. I'm not happy with the SNP having most of the seats in
>>>> scotland but thats how the vote went, end of. As I said, suck it up.
>>>
>>> I’m glad that you think it would be acceptable for Scotland to gain
>>> independence if the majority of the Scottish electorate were to vote for it
>>> in a referendum. I don’t get the impression that you’d accept it with good
>>>
>>> grace, but what the heck.
>>
>> No I wouldn't accept it with good grace as I wouldn't want half my family
>> living in a seperate country. But I *would* accept it if that was the outcome
>> of the vote and wouldn't whinge about it forever and a day like remainers do.
>
> Glad you’d get over it, but of course they live in a different country
> already, FSVO country.
>
> Sam
>

To me, having lived most of my life in the English Midlands, Scotland
definitely feels to be a different country when I visit Glasgow. Not as
different as, say visiting France or Germany,

When I visited Shetland a few years back I asked a local what nationality
they felt they were. The answer was Shetlander first, British second. Being
Scottish didn’t come into it.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 19:00:56 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:21:54 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 11:50:28 +0100
>>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>On 27.02.23 11:45, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 10:38:30 +0000
>>>> Brian <Brian@2001.bjforster.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 19:25:52 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> Thats democracy for you, suck it up.
>>>
>>>Democracy involves the people being free to object to government
>>>policies they don't like. "If you don't like it, suck it up" is not a
>>>feature of a democratic system, that's what dictatorships do.
>>
>>Dictatorships hold referendums and undertake to follow the outcome do they?
>>When did this happen?
>>
>>There seems to be a big problem with people such as yourself only believing
>>something is democratic if you agree with the outcome of the vote. Thats not
>>how democracy works. I'm not happy with the SNP having most of the seats in
>>scotland but thats how the vote went, end of. As I said, suck it up.
>>
>The SNP and the Scottish Greens have the majority of seats in the
>Scottish Parliament because they together had the majority of the
>party vote in the PR system designated by Westminster.
>They have an even greater majority in the Scottish representation in
>Westminster because of the dodgy voting system used for UK Parliament
>elections. Extrapolating from the SP vote, you can still expect an SNP
>majority in the Scottish bit of Westminster.

There is no perfect election system when there are > 2 parties standing.
You either have FPTP or coalitions based on voting proportions or a combination
of the two. All have their pros and cons. If you can think of a better system
then I'm sure there'd be plenty of willing listeners.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 21:47:27 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> No I wouldn't accept it with good grace as I wouldn't want half my family
>> living in a seperate country. But I *would* accept it if that was the outcome
>
>> of the vote and wouldn't whinge about it forever and a day like remainers do.
>
>
>Glad you’d get over it, but of course they live in a different country
>already, FSVO country.

What is a country vs nation vs state all gets a bit blurry around the edges
when it comes to the UK.

On 28/02/2023 08:47, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 21:47:27 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> No I wouldn't accept it with good grace as I wouldn't want half my family
>>> living in a seperate country. But I *would* accept it if that was the outcome
>>
>>> of the vote and wouldn't whinge about it forever and a day like remainers do.
>>
>>
>> Glad you’d get over it, but of course they live in a different country
>> already, FSVO country.
>
> What is a country vs nation vs state all gets a bit blurry around the edges
> when it comes to the UK.
>

Especially round the edges of the UK!
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <7P-dndkpCbUub2H-nZ2dnZfqnPUAAAAA@brightview.co.uk>, at
18:13:07 on Mon, 27 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 27/02/2023 12:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tti54m$38mm0$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:45:26 on Mon, 27 Feb
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 27/02/2023 08:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ttfrlg$2ujsh$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:51:28 on Sun, 26 Feb
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 26/02/2023 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <88CcnXQ9QpMVomb-nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>> 11:16:24 on Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single
>>>>>>>> issue  vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-
>>>>>>>> immigration, £350m  for  the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever
>>>>>>>> greater federalism";  as well  as stuff to do with a golden future
>>>>>>>> making independent trade  deals and  getting to keep more of our own
>>>>>>>> fish.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a joke,
>>>>>>> but "the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was a real
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>
>>>>>>   Of all the dozens of disparate reasons (including "it means we'll
>>>>>> be allowed to ban the export of live animals", and "Tampon Tax")
>>>>>> I haven't heard that particular one before.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given, at the time, they already had been, I can't see what attraction
>>>>> that would have had.
>>
>>>>  There would have been an attraction to those who dislike
>>>>privatisation,  in writing on the side of a bus (or wherever) "No
>>>>more EU-inspired  privatisation if you vote Leave".
>>
>>>>  [And it would even have been true, we'd have just had home-grown
>>>>   privatisation instead].
>>>
>>> What, apart from the NHS, was there left to privatise by 2016?

>> If that were the case, people would be voting against spilt milk.
>>Rather than milk yet to be split at the EU's alleged behest.
>
>https://www.etf-europe.org/transport-workers-and-unions-rally-for-democr
>acy-etf-protests-european-commissions-attempt-to-force-rail-liberalisati
>on/

><quote>
>On 28 February, the European Transport Federation (ETF) will take
>action in Brussels to protest the European Commission’s undemocratic
>attempt to force the liberalisation of public transport by rail and
>road behind the backs of the Council and the European Parliament.
></quote>

Given that the Commission has no power to do that (without due process
of approval), they are tilting at windmills.
--
Roland Perry

In message <7P-dnd4pCbUxbGH-nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
18:08:44 on Mon, 27 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 26/02/2023 14:51, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 26/02/2023 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <88CcnXQ9QpMVomb-nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>11:16:24 on Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>remarked:
>>>> On 25/02/2023 20:00, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single
>>>>>issue vote. There were at least four major themes:
>>>>>anti-immigration, £350m for  the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing
>>>>>"ever greater federalism"; as well  as stuff to do with a golden
>>>>>future making independent trade deals and  getting to keep more of our own fish.
>>>>
>>>> And don't forget lexit - IMHO too many people treat lexit as a
>>>>joke, but "the EU is forcing privatisation of state industries" was
>>>>a real thing.
>>>
>>> Of all the dozens of disparate reasons (including "it means we'll
>>> be allowed to ban the export of live animals", and "Tampon Tax")
>>> I haven't heard that particular one before.

>> Given, at the time, they already had been, I can't see what
>>attraction that would have had.
>
>It (was belived that it) would have stopped Corbyn (re)nationalising
>all the things.

Why would Brexit have stopped Corbyn?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttirsu$3aqce$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:13:50 on Mon, 27 Feb
2023, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 25/02/2023 19:25, Tweed wrote:

>> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.
>
>I really objected to being made an EU citizen without my consent.

But you were not forced to use any of the privileges it endowed.

Whereas having left, people have been forced to give up those which they
did use.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttj56n$3bo8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:39 on Mon, 27 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 27/02/2023 18:39, Tweed wrote:
>>> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
>>> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
>>> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being able to stay
>>> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.
>>
>> Will the SNP have as much support in the future? It seems to have
>> dropped since Sturgeon's resignation and will it fall further now we
>> seem to know why she resigned.
>
>I’m told by young people I know in Glasgow that the desire for independence
>is very strong amongst the young, and figures I have seen confirm this. Now
>this can go two ways - these people remain of that view as they age and
>more independence minded youngsters come up behind them. On the other hand
>perhaps they change their mind with age and the status quo remains.

The problem with "the young" is they don't understand where the money
has come from to featherbed them most of their life so far.

When they grow up and have kids asking to borrow from bank-of-mum-
and-dad, or get a role as councillor having to decide which 10% of
deserving community applications gets to be awarded a grant this
year, the perspective changes.
--
Roland Perry

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 25/02/2023 19:25, Tweed wrote:
>> I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.
>
>
> I really objected to being made an EU citizen without my consent.

What downsides did you notice from becoming a reluctant EU citizen? What
rights or freedoms did you lose? What unwanted obligations were thrust
upon you?

On 28.02.23 15:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ttj56n$3bo8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:39 on Mon, 27 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 27/02/2023 18:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
>>>> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
>>>> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being able
>>>> to stay
>>>> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.
>>>
>>> Will the SNP have as much support in the future? It seems to have
>>> dropped since Sturgeon's resignation and will it fall further now we
>>> seem to know why she resigned.
>>
>> I’m told by young people I know in Glasgow that the desire for
>> independence
>> is very strong amongst the young, and figures I have seen confirm
>> this. Now
>> this can go two ways - these people remain of that view as they age and
>> more independence minded youngsters come up behind them. On the other
>> hand
>> perhaps they change their mind with age and the status quo remains.
>
> The problem with "the young" is they don't understand where the money
> has come from to featherbed them most of their life so far.
>
> When they grow up and have kids asking to borrow from bank-of-mum-
> and-dad, or get a role as councillor having to decide which 10% of
> deserving community applications gets to be awarded a grant this
> year, the perspective changes.

Conversely the problem with "the old" is that they have completely lost
touch with how much the world has changed since their youth, and don't
realise that the opportunities they were able to take advantage of in
getting a start in life don't exist anymore. When young people realise
that, while their parents could afford a deposit on a house and get a
mortgage on a single working class income in their 20s, today the
deposit on a modest house is more than a full year's graduate income,
and that the marvelous economy they are supposed to be in favour of has
inflation running in double digits and working people depending on food
banks to get by, it's no wonder "the young" don't see where the money
has come from: none of that money is coming to them, and if they support
the system as it is, that isn't about to change.

Robin

On 27.02.23 14:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tti3r6$38d6c$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:23:16 on Mon, 27 Feb
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 27.02.23 11:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ttfl5d$2tvae$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:00:27 on Sun, 26 Feb
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 26.02.23 12:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ttfdj6$2t6qr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:16 on Sun, 26
>>>>> Feb  2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily  the  same  as the National Rail fare between A
>>>>>>>>>>> and B (via  perhaps  D). So the fare  you are discounting by
>>>>>>>>>>> a third won't  be the  same. But at least it'd be  clear
>>>>>>>>>>> which of the two to  discount.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking
>>>>>>>>>>> to  one  mode  all the way, the undiscounted fare is
>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to  know especially  when  the system can't tell
>>>>>>>>>>> where you made the  modal  circumstances there are no
>>>>>>>>>>> barriers to go through where  you change  modes).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations
>>>>>>>>>> like  Farringdon  and Stratford.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There may be other  locations not provisioned as well.
>>>>>>>>> Wimbledon  probably has them (hence  the complicated, and
>>>>>>>>> confusing for some  visitors, rules about touching
>>>>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing  there. Does Stratford have them
>>>>>>>>> for the  cross-platform changes  with the Central Line (I
>>>>>>>>> haven't been to  look at  that specific  aspect).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed?  LE and LU are
>>>>>>>> treated  as  one.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with
>>>>>>> Oyster  [or  CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere
>>>>>>> outside  the Oyster  or CCC area, hence needing independent
>>>>>>> ticketing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For that use case, you'd want the validator to be at the
>>>>>> first/last  (depeding on direction) station in the Oyster zones
>>>>>> rather than at a  central location, so Dartford, Swanley, New
>>>>>> Barnet, Elstree &  Borhamwood etc.
>>>
>>>>>  No, you need it wherever people actually physically change trains.
>>>>
>>>> If you change trains at St Pancras, you pass through a gateline,
>>>> which  does the job of validating.
>>>  Not when you change trains at SPILL !! (I hope I've explained this
>>> fully  by now).
>>
>> You haven't. You've made some vague assertions that this is important
>> and hand waved away any suggestion that it might not be a very good
>> idea. What actual journey would this be useful for?
>
> I will answer this in the other subthread.

Seems that use case is proving rather hard to find.

Robin