On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 07:35:38 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <ttamqc$28hft$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:04 on Fri, 24 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>I used to walk half a mile to a tube stop.
>
>Because the bus stop was further, or just because they weren't reliable?

Buses are never reliable wherever you are. They're highly vulnerable to
traffic problems.

>How far was the end-to-end trip. If only a couple of miles (which is
>what we are talking about in Rushcliffe) then a half mile diversion at
>the start is quite significant.

Even if I was only going a few miles I'd still take the tube instead of a
bus because you can rely on it turning up (when the yuppy bolsheviks arn't
on strike again).

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 07:51:58 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 24/02/2023 01:16, Recliner wrote:
>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>> On 24/02/2023 00:33, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 23/02/2023 23:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:55:39 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:26:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>>>>>> islands.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The CTA applies to people but not to goods; pre-EU there were customs
>>>>>>>> posts on many border crossings in Ireland.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Schengen also applies to people but not to goods.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> But is not to be equated with the CTA.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'd end up with a problem like that we now face in Ireland. We must
>>>>> allow movement between England and Scotland, and between Scotland and
>>>>> France, whilst preventing movement between England and France.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The problem is Ireland isn't to do with CTA and Schengen. That works well,
>>>> with no contradictions.
>>>>
>>>> It's all about goods, which are supposed to flow freely from GB to NI, and
>>>> from NI to EI, but not from GB to EI. So there has to be some sort of
>>>> segregation of goods flowing freely from GB to NI from goods flowing with
>>>> customs checks from GB to EI via NI. Hence the proposals for green and red
>>>> lanes. Even more difficult is the issue of whether EU or GB standards
>>>> should be used in NI.
>>>
>>> Yes: to clarify, people entering or leaving Scotland would end up with a
>>> problem similar to that goods now face in Ireland.
>>
>> Scotland would certainly stay in the CTA, and not join Schengen. Absolutely
>> no-one would want a Schengen border on the island of Great Britain.
>
>Mogg and his ERG friends would.

Why?

On 25/02/2023 11:59, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>
>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>
>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>>> was my biggest concern.
>>
>> We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>> would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>>
>> The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
>
> Given that free movement of people is part of the rules for the single market, that aspect of 'taking back control'
> alone was enough to force us out of the single market ("free movement of goods, services, capital and persons in a
> single EU internal market. By removing technical, legal and bureaucratic barriers, the EU also allows citizens to trade
> and do business freely.").
>
> Ironically, I think these EU rules were inspired and pushed hard by St Hilda, the patron saint of the ERG Church.

Very much so!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:42:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>> apply - arguably ?
>>
>> You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.
>
> True. I normally pride myself on pedantry but on this occasion I have
> slipped up.
>
> Taking it to a new level of pedantry though, I was reporting what the
> SNP wants. They say they want to rejoin, even if the concept is
> mistaken.
>

Scottish citizens were EU citizens, so they would be rejoining, even if
their state might not be.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/02/2023 09:02, MB wrote:
>> On 23/02/2023 22:12, Recliner wrote:
>>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members
>>> are in
>>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
>>
>>
>> They tend to be able to force things like those on new members as a
>> condition of membership and whatever the SNP say, they would not be
>> "rejoining" the EU as Scotland has never been a member state.
>>
>> They think Economic and Monetary Union is just adopting the Euro but it
>> means handing over complete control of a country's finances to Brussels.
>>
>>
>
> Another fantasy.

Well, it would prevent another Truss-up…

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <ttcnfl$2hp85$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:37 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 25.02.23 08:13, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>10:47:49 on
>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London.  My Oyster card is
>>>>>>>>>linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>or credit
>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>that other
>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>terms
>>>>>>>>> (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys can include
>>>>>>>>> Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so it seems
>>>>>>>>>illogical to
>>>>>>>>> offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example
>>>>>>>>touching in
>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>gates, I
>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of
>>>>>>>>those than
>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>> journey).  My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>
>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>
>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>> modes).
>>>
>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>Farringdon and Stratford.

>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>
>They're on the gates, and you can't make an interchange there without
>passing through the gateline.

See my reply to Recliner.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>>>
>>>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>>>
>>>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>>>
>>>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>>>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>>>
>>>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
>>>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>>>> the evening peak.
>>>
>>> Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
>>> M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.
>>
>> Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".
>
>Where?

Look seven or eight lines of text up. (Oh, and it's a quote from the TfL
website).
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt8m86$1vkru$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>that other
>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign
>>>>>>>>>to do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>
>>>>> No
>>>>
>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes
>>>>
>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>
>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>
>> But you can still get a railcard discount on an evening[1] peak train
>> that requires an Anytime ticket. What seems to be special about the
>> Oyster scheme is that it excludes that combination.
>
>Does it? The Oyster railcard discount applies from 9:30 onwards.

See adjacent subthread.

>> [1] I think we'll find there's also some trains in the morning where
>> Railcard rules allow a discount, but the actual train is still,
>> just, requiring an Anytime paper ticket. (Let's not get down in the
>> weeds about Oyster tickets on that handful of trains, but it could
>> go either way if we did).

--
Roland Perry

In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>
>>>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>
>>I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>
>I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations

Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
the EU at all.

>with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market.

>This was my biggest concern.

One of my biggest concerns too. So much of that legislation is about
consumer rights, privacy and so on; protecting us from rogues and big
business; it would be disastrous to throw that away.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>
>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>
>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>> modes).
>>>
>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
>>> and Stratford.
>>
>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>
>Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>
>> There may be other
>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>> that specific aspect).
>
>I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.

Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.

--
Roland Perry

In message <ttctbb$2icg3$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:01:47 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 07:35:38 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <ttamqc$28hft$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:58:04 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>I used to walk half a mile to a tube stop.
>>
>>Because the bus stop was further, or just because they weren't reliable?
>
>Buses are never reliable wherever you are. They're highly vulnerable to
>traffic problems.

But the buses in question don't seem to have those problems. I used them
regularly for years, remember.

>>How far was the end-to-end trip. If only a couple of miles (which is
>>what we are talking about in Rushcliffe) then a half mile diversion at
>>the start is quite significant.
>
>Even if I was only going a few miles I'd still take the tube instead of a
>bus because you can rely on it turning up (when the yuppy bolsheviks arn't
>on strike again).

Same answer. Sorry London doesn't seem to be able to run reliable buses,
thus causing you an unnecessary a half mile walk twice a day. Maybe need
to talk to the Mayor about that.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit or credit
>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount that other
>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>> terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>> can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you used by
>>>>>>>>> the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for example touching in
>>>>>>>>> at Vauxhall National Rail and out at Waterloo National Rail can be
>>>>>>>>> separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate gates, I
>>>>>>>>> don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are fewer of those than
>>>>>>>>> we think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>
>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>> modes).
>>>>
>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
>>>> and Stratford.
>>>
>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>
>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>
>>> There may be other
>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>> that specific aspect).
>>
>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.
>
> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>

EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$6@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt8lst$1vjde$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:30:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <2nnevhpvn21642069bmvpef37r5adtu8nj@4ax.com>, at 12:43:35 on
>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:21:09 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 11:44, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All Tube trips are included.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The first part certainly implies that some or all Tube trips are
>>>>>>> included, but how does that reconcile with "Railcard discounts do
>>>>>>> not apply to ... most London Underground ... tickets"? Genuine
>>>>>>> question; I'm not trying to pick holes in anyone's argument.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key word is *tickets*. Oyster card users don't have tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I see, the relevant word being "fares".
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cc card users also don't get the discount, as there isn't yet a way of
>>>>>> registering a rail card to a cc card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It might mean that rail tickets with a Maltese cross attract a
>>>>>>> discount despite being valid on the Tube, but "London Underground
>>>>>>> tickets" valid only on the Tube[1] do not, but other comments imply
>>>>>>> that it is much more liberal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Registered Oyster users get the rail card discount, others don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, only off-peak; so not Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and
>>>>> from 1600 to 1900.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is slightly more generous than a cardholder might have expected in
>>>>> the morning, but will come as a disappointment for those traveling in
>>>>> the evening peak.
>>>>
>>>> Why would they be disappointed? The railcard discount applies after 09:30
>>>> M-F, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.
>>>
>>> Because as it says above: "not ... from 1600 to 1900".
>>
>> Where?
>
> Look seven or eight lines of text up. (Oh, and it's a quote from the TfL
> website).

You are confused. The railcard discount applies all day after 0930:

- At any time on weekends and public holidays
- After 09:30, Monday to Friday

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/national-railcard-discount

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tt8m86$1vkru$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card is linked
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>> that other
>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign
>>>>>>>>>> to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No
>>>>>
>>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>
>>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast. The rules
>>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>>
>>> But you can still get a railcard discount on an evening[1] peak train
>>> that requires an Anytime ticket. What seems to be special about the
>>> Oyster scheme is that it excludes that combination.
>>
>> Does it? The Oyster railcard discount applies from 9:30 onwards.
>
> See adjacent subthread.

Where I've corrected your confusion, again.

In message <ttdcn2$2jrvb$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:24:02 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>><roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>20:28:39 on Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott
>>>>>>>>>><newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card
>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>or credit card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>>that other payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>>> terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>>> can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>>>used by the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for
>>>>>>>>>>example touching in at Vauxhall National Rail and out at
>>>>>>>>>>Waterloo National Rail can be separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>>>gates, I don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are
>>>>>>>>>>fewer of those than we think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>
>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>
>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>
>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>
>>>> There may be other
>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.
>>
>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>
>EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
>interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.

But you can later change to a train that does go outside the area (or
are there relevant validators at Shenfield, Ealing Broadway etc?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ttdcn2$2jrvb$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:24:02 on Sat, 25 Feb
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ttcm50$2hmas$7@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:56 on Sat, 25 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tt8n65$1vob2$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:05 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <4hmevhlutof14o9unb73q8j2o2m7ik3qob@4ax.com>, at 12:27:46 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:28:31 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <nsgevhp2m7u6d74lesnc4b7c8ubaftuacs@4ax.com>, at 10:47:49 on
>>>>>>>>> Thu, 23 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott
>>>>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card
>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>> or credit card.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>>> that other payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign to
>>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on the Tube, DLR,
>>>>>>>>>>> London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But from the card's T&C:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train
>>>>>>>>>>> company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London
>>>>>>>>>>> Underground and DLR tickets."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Left hand/right hand?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose the flat fare on a bus can be isolated in accounting
>>>>>>>>>>>> terms (thought it counts towards the daily cap) but journeys
>>>>>>>>>>>> can include Underground, Overground, national rail and bus so
>>>>>>>>>>>> it seems illogical to offer one-third discount for a Railcard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know they must have a guess at which services you
>>>>>>>>>>> used by the gatelines (or Pink Validators) tickled. So for
>>>>>>>>>>> example touching in at Vauxhall National Rail and out at
>>>>>>>>>>> Waterloo National Rail can be separated from using the Victoria Line etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If a trip could be on a mixture of modes with no intermediate
>>>>>>>>>>> gates, I don't know quite what they do, but maybe there are
>>>>>>>>>>> fewer of those than we think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, you always have to tap in when boarding a bus, so the number of
>>>>>>>>>> bus journeys should be known with accuracy (albeit not the length of
>>>>>>>>>> journey). My point was - assuming the bus journeys count towards the
>>>>>>>>>> cap - how do they apportion the fare revenue if some of the bus
>>>>>>>>>> journeys are effectively freebies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't necessarily the same
>>>>>>> as the National Rail fare between A and B (via perhaps D). So the fare
>>>>>>> you are discounting by a third won't be the same. But at least it'd be
>>>>>>> clear which of the two to discount.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking to one mode
>>>>>>> all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to know especially when
>>>>>>> the system can't tell where you made the modal change (in the
>>>>>>> circumstances there are no barriers to go through where you change
>>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like Farringdon
>>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>
>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>
>>>>> There may be other
>>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about touching
>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been to look at
>>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are treated as one.
>>>
>>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>
>> EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
>> interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.
>
> But you can later change to a train that does go outside the area (or
> are there relevant validators at Shenfield, Ealing Broadway etc?

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>
>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>
>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>> was my biggest concern.
>
>We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>
>The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.

Not my recollection. I thought it was about getting rid of EU red
tape and making our own laws (which inevitably was going to put us in
conflict with the single market). .

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>
>>>I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>
>>I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>
>Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
>the EU at all.

No, not the whole lot. I said 'departing' meaning some changes. It
was clear (to me at least) that making changes would jeopardise our
ability to remain in the single market.
>
>>with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market.
>
>>This was my biggest concern.
>
>One of my biggest concerns too. So much of that legislation is about
>consumer rights, privacy and so on; protecting us from rogues and big
>business; it would be disastrous to throw that away.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:09:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:12:40 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 23/02/2023 21:26, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 17:56:42 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:35:48 +0000, Scott
>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:05:52 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 23/02/2023 09:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It's more complicated than that. For example, I think English bus passes
>>>>>>>>>> remain valid on the Sheffield trams. And London trams are priced as buses,
>>>>>>>>>> but English bus passes aren't valid on them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I went to Edinburgh last year, I was expecting to be able to use my
>>>>>>>>> bus pass - most of normal people don't spend our time reading timetables
>>>>>>>>> and T&C. :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you think that's bad, just wait till the SNP get their way and you
>>>>>>>> will need your biometric passport to enter the Shengen area before you
>>>>>>>> get close to any bus in Edinburgh :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should read Schengen of course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only government that has threatened such restrictions is the one
>>>>>>> to the south.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>>> apply - arguably :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, Scotland would remain in the CTA, along with rUK, Ireland and various
>>>>> islands.
>>>>>
>>>> I thought joining Schengen was compulsory when joining the EU now?
>>>
>>> No, not all EU members are in Schengen, and not all Schengen members are in
>>> the EU, or have any intention of joining.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> How are we going to organise the border for those crossing it on the train.
>>>
>>> No different to the Dublin-Belfast trains.
>>>
>> Republic of Ireland is not in Schengen so totally different.
>>
>
>And nor will Scotland. It will remain in the CTA. So, exactly the same as
>the Irish example.

My hypothetical (*) question was what would happen if Scotland joined
Schengen (which some believe is a condition for new members).
(*) recognising that other hypotheses exist also.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 12:54:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:42:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>> apply - arguably ?
>>>
>>> You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.
>>
>> True. I normally pride myself on pedantry but on this occasion I have
>> slipped up.
>>
>> Taking it to a new level of pedantry though, I was reporting what the
>> SNP wants. They say they want to rejoin, even if the concept is
>> mistaken.
>>
>Scottish citizens were EU citizens, so they would be rejoining, even if
>their state might not be.

I wish I had thought of that :-)

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 12:54:38 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 22:42:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/02/2023 18:46, Scott wrote:
>>>>> Yes, but the SNP wants to rejoin the EU so EU (Schengen) rules would
>>>>> apply - arguably ?
>>>>
>>>> You cannot REjoin something that you have not previously been a member.
>>>
>>> True. I normally pride myself on pedantry but on this occasion I have
>>> slipped up.
>>>
>>> Taking it to a new level of pedantry though, I was reporting what the
>>> SNP wants. They say they want to rejoin, even if the concept is
>>> mistaken.
>>>
>> Scottish citizens were EU citizens, so they would be rejoining, even if
>> their state might not be.
>
> I wish I had thought of that :-)
>

I really object to having my EU citizenship taken from me.

In message <v3kkvh1v8l0ettrtkm99ttn1hopcu9qe95@4ax.com>, at 18:17:42 on
Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 10:49:25 +0000, Graeme Wall
><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 25/02/2023 10:09, Scott wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>
>>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>
>>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>> with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market. This
>>> was my biggest concern.
>>
>>We were assured at the time by one, then senior, politician that we
>>would remain in the single market, it would be the easiest deal ever.
>>
>>The "Taking back control" nonsense originally was only about immigration.
>
>Not my recollection. I thought it was about getting rid of EU red
>tape and making our own laws (which inevitably was going to put us in
>conflict with the single market). .

People have different recollections, because it wasn't a single issue
vote. There were at least four major themes: anti-immigration, £350m for
the NHS, wonky bananas, and opposing "ever greater federalism"; as well
as stuff to do with a golden future making independent trade deals and
getting to keep more of our own fish.
--
Roland Perry

In message <m7kkvhp6kk4f1n8pqffm90bap80hthn9d4@4ax.com>, at 18:20:29 on
Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 16:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
>>Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible. It would be the
>>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>>
>>>>I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>>>Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>>
>>>I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>>
>>Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
>>the EU at all.
>
>No, not the whole lot. I said 'departing' meaning some changes. It
>was clear (to me at least) that making changes would jeopardise our
>ability to remain in the single market.

Depends of which changes were going to be made.

>>>with the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market.
>>
>>>This was my biggest concern.
>>
>>One of my biggest concerns too. So much of that legislation is about
>>consumer rights, privacy and so on; protecting us from rogues and big
>>business; it would be disastrous to throw that away.

--
Roland Perry

On 25/02/2023 16:10, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <bfnjvh5ec006arb9hga19p7q6apbkiqvt0@4ax.com>, at 10:09:36 on
> Sat, 25 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 13:16:32 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tt9tfh$25ttp$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:45:37 on Fri, 24 Feb
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> UK and Ireland have had passport free common travel area arrangements
>>>>> since Ireland became independent. In a case where Scotland were in
>>>>> Schengen and rUK was not, that would not be possible.  It would be the
>>>>> same issue that plagues NI today for goods, but for people.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, which is why Scotland would stay in the CTA.
>>>
>>> I used to think that in event of Brexit, then "the UK would stay in the
>>> Single Market" for similar reasons. And look what happened.
>>
>> I interpreted 'taking back control' as departing from EU regulations
>
> Not the whole lot, which would make it impossible for us to trade with
> the EU at all.

Apparently exactly what Mogg wants.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ttdctf$2jsla$6@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:27 on Sat, 25 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ttcm4v$2hmas$5@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:55 on Sat, 25 Feb
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tt8m86$1vkru$5@dont-email.me>, at 21:36:06 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tt7jia$1s0hq$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:10 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <tt7grb$1rnju$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:47 on Thu, 23 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:17:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <00ucvh9kn2ita4o86so9k1qer70hmlcobf@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 20:28:39 on
>>>>>>>>>>> Wed, 22 Feb 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have just returned from a trip to London. My Oyster card
>>>>>>>>>>>>is linked
>>>>>>>>>>>> to my Senior Railcard, which gives me a discount on the tube.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wondered if it is possible to link a Railcard with a debit
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it's a promise that's still being broken.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not, does this mean passengers holding Railcards are being
>>>>>>>>>>>> overcharged
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In a sense, yes, because they wouldn't be getting a discount
>>>>>>>>>>> that other
>>>>>>>>>>> payment methods would facilitate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and could this cause legal problems for TfL at some stage?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There might be some mileage in pursuing "false advertising" that CCC
>>>>>>>>>>> will give you the best fare, but I'm unaware of any campaign
>>>>>>>>>>> to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has TfL made this sufficiently clear?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the broken promise, or the "haha you can't sue us"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, does the discount apply on buses, given that the same Oyster
>>>>>>>>>>>> card is used?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From the TfL website:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Your National Railcard gives you discounts on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is here a missing "only a few" here...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Turns out what's missing is "off peak"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some of the train journeys may also be freebies. I think the answer is
>>>>>>>>> simple: all rail fares
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Including all tube fares (see left hand/right hand, above)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only off-peak.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, of course, just like rail fares in London and the southeast.
>>>>>The rules
>>>>> are the same for NR, LO, EL, LU and DLR trains.
>>>>
>>>> But you can still get a railcard discount on an evening[1] peak train
>>>> that requires an Anytime ticket. What seems to be special about the
>>>> Oyster scheme is that it excludes that combination.
>>>
>>> Does it? The Oyster railcard discount applies from 9:30 onwards.
>>
>> See adjacent subthread.
>
>Where I've corrected your confusion, again.

And I've refuted, with actual evidence rather than arm-waving.
--
Roland Perry