On 06/03/2023 17:09, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:50:00 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 12:21, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:13:00 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 06/03/2023 09:23, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 18:01:12 +0000
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/03/2023 16:00, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> 1) what is the connection between India and Africa in your argument
>>>>>>>> above, and how do you fit Modi into it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What a shame there's no usenet equivalent of crayon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both india and plenty of sub saharan africa were part of the British
>>>> Empire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See, not that complicated is it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So was Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Fiji, your point is?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a concept of following a thread. You should try it sometime.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So you haven't got an answer.
>>>
>>> When you can ask a sensible question where the answer isn't contained within
>>> everything thats already been written then get back to me.
>>>
>>> Hmm, whats the connection between India and Africa ... tough one....
>>>
>>
>> Appears to be for you.
>
> You've obviously read the rest of the thread with others input so stop being
> dick for once in your life.
>

Ah, back to the insults.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/03/2023 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:50:49 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 12:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:22:28 +0000
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 06/03/2023 09:35, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 08:22:45 +0000
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> <https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway
>>
>>>>
>>>>>> />
>>>>>>> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them
>>>> progress
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tribalism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plenty of tribalism in europe yet we somehow managed to overcome it enough
>> to
>>>>
>>>>> get where we are today.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The cold weather helps, less likely to fight when you are huddled
>>>> together to keep warm.
>>>
>>> Like all those huddling vikings?
>>>
>>
>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>
> *sigh*
>
> 1066.
>
>

Kept being postponed because of bad weather. Once again England lost on
penalties.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/03/2023 19:20, Sam Wilson wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:50:49 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 06/03/2023 12:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:22:28 +0000
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 06/03/2023 09:35, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 08:22:45 +0000
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> <https://atlasmalawi.com/spate-of-water-pumps-theft-whose-accountability-anyway
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> />
>>>>>>>> There is something about the African culture that doesn’t let them
>>>>> progress
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tribalism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plenty of tribalism in europe yet we somehow managed to overcome it enough
>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> get where we are today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The cold weather helps, less likely to fight when you are huddled
>>>>> together to keep warm.
>>>>
>>>> Like all those huddling vikings?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>>
>> *sigh*
>>
>> 1066.
>
> ISTR the Viking part of that pincer movement lost at Stamford Bridge.
>

In my experience of Stamford Bridge, a home win was most unusual.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/03/2023 18:37, Nobody wrote:
> Newfoundland in Sept 1907 as well (same date as ANZ)... though it went
> down the economic tubes and returned the keys in the early-ish Dirty
> Thirties:
>
> Premier Joey Smallwood dragged it into Confederation in 1949 (barely
> before April Fool's Day) as the tenth province.

I thought Newfoundland was relatively recent, when I photographed war
graves for the Canadian project, we were warned to watch out for
Newfoundlanders because they were not on lists of Canadians.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:08:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 06/03/2023 11:30, Bob wrote:
>> The same problems exist due to the same causes. Zero effort was made to
>> actually create governmental systems involving the local population in a
>> meaningful way, with sufficient time for them to gain legitimacy in the
>> eyes of the governed, before the colonial powers went home and left the
>> locals to their own devices.
>
>
>There was in India with an educated class who ran much of the country
>but as soon as the British left, they reverted to type and started
>killing each other in large numbers thanks to religion mainly.
>
>The Belgians seem to have treated their colonies worst, along with
>perhaps the Portuguese.
>
The Dutch weren't a lot better.

>You can get an idea of what they were like from the former colonies with
>no historical links to Britain who voluntarily joined the (British)
>Commonwealth.
>

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Mar 2023 02:40:48 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 09:59:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 17:50:34 +0000
>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:16:11 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 19:00:42 +0000
>>>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:48:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>And yet you still end up with a party the majority didn't vote for being
>>in
>>>>
>>>>>>>power for 15 years. So the scottish system doesn't work any better either.
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>It does. Parties generally work by consensus; at present there is a
>>>>>>slim majority of pro-independence parties as a result of the
>>>>>
>>>>>Last time I looked the independence vote went 55-45 against so if the system
>>
>>>>>worked there'd be a slim majority of unionists in the parliament.
>>>>>
>>>>That was getting on for 9 years ago. The composition of the Scottish
>>>>Parliament was decided by a more recent vote.
>>>
>>>According to the most recent poll:
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
>>>
>>>support for independance has started dipping below 40% a few times recently.
>>>Yes, 9 years is a long time in politics.
>>>
>>That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>
>IOW a standard poll.
>
Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
something which only the Westminster government has been actively
trying to prevent.

On 07/03/2023 02:18, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:08:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 06/03/2023 11:30, Bob wrote:
>>> The same problems exist due to the same causes. Zero effort was made to
>>> actually create governmental systems involving the local population in a
>>> meaningful way, with sufficient time for them to gain legitimacy in the
>>> eyes of the governed, before the colonial powers went home and left the
>>> locals to their own devices.
>>
>>
>> There was in India with an educated class who ran much of the country
>> but as soon as the British left, they reverted to type and started
>> killing each other in large numbers thanks to religion mainly.
>>
>> The Belgians seem to have treated their colonies worst, along with
>> perhaps the Portuguese.
>>
> The Dutch weren't a lot better.
>

Read Nathaniel's Nutmeg by Giles Milton to see how bad!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/03/2023 02:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Mar 2023 02:40:48 +0000
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 09:59:29 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 17:50:34 +0000
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 09:16:11 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 19:00:42 +0000
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 09:48:17 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> And yet you still end up with a party the majority didn't vote for being
>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> power for 15 years. So the scottish system doesn't work any better either.
>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It does. Parties generally work by consensus; at present there is a
>>>>>>> slim majority of pro-independence parties as a result of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last time I looked the independence vote went 55-45 against so if the system
>>>
>>>>>> worked there'd be a slim majority of unionists in the parliament.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That was getting on for 9 years ago. The composition of the Scottish
>>>>> Parliament was decided by a more recent vote.
>>>>
>>>> According to the most recent poll:
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
>>>>
>>>> support for independance has started dipping below 40% a few times recently.
>>>> Yes, 9 years is a long time in politics.
>>>>
>>> That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>
>> IOW a standard poll.
>>
> Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
> vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
> counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
> something which only the Westminster government has been actively
> trying to prevent.

Yes. Voter suppression is something the UK conservatives have in common
with the US Republicans. Both has their roots in racism.

In message <ttl9ti$3l4n4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:25:21 on Tue, 28 Feb
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 28.02.23 15:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ttj56n$3bo8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:39 on Mon, 27 Feb
>>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 27/02/2023 18:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
>>>>> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
>>>>> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being
>>>>>able to stay
>>>>> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.
>>>>
>>>> Will the SNP have as much support in the future? It seems to have
>>>> dropped since Sturgeon's resignation and will it fall further now we
>>>> seem to know why she resigned.
>>>
>>> I’m told by young people I know in Glasgow that the desire for
>>>independence is very strong amongst the young, and figures I have
>>>seen confirm this. Now this can go two ways - these people remain
>>>of that view as they age and more independence minded youngsters
>>>come up behind them. On the other hand perhaps they change their
>>>mind with age and the status quo remains.

>> The problem with "the young" is they don't understand where the
>>money has come from to featherbed them most of their life so far.
>> When they grow up and have kids asking to borrow from bank-of-mum-
>> and-dad, or get a role as councillor having to decide which 10% of
>> deserving community applications gets to be awarded a grant this
>> year, the perspective changes.
>
>Conversely the problem with "the old" is that they have completely lost
>touch with how much the world has changed since their youth, and don't
>realise that the opportunities they were able to take advantage of in
>getting a start in life don't exist anymore.

Old opportunities have been replaced by new. We didn't have Linked-In
back then.

The most significant chilling factor has undoubtedly been increased
regulation, not that some of it isn't necessary to protect the
vulnerable from predators.

>When young people realise that, while their parents could afford a
>deposit on a house and get a mortgage on a single working class income
>in their 20s, today the deposit on a modest house is more than a full
>year's graduate income,

Of course, houses are more sophisticated nowadays. My parents' fairly
new build when I was a University student didn't have central heating,
double glazing hadn't been invented, a fridge was a luxury and no such
thing as a fitted kitchen (we had a cupboard under the sink and one
wall-hanging unit). Let alone all the TVs, computers and other
paraphernalia will fill our houses with.

>and that the marvelous economy they are supposed to be in favour of has
>inflation running in double digits

It was like that in 1980 when I bought my first house (a modest two-bed
terrace). The deposit for which was about half my middle-manager annual
salary.

<https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/historical-
inflation-1860-600x440.png.webp>

>and working people depending on food banks to get by,

There's a lot of fake-news here (not that food banks aren't necessary).
Nurses using food banks tend to turn out to be single mothers working
two days a week, which is a bit of a special case.

>it's no wonder "the young" don't see where the money has come from:
>none of that money is coming to them,

If they are on any form of benefits or <thread convergence> got
subsidised rail/bus fares, or rely on any local government services
which are typically 50% nationally funded, or in education, or using the
NHS, or relying on advice/support from charities [including food
banks!], there's a huge inward flow of funds supporting their everyday
activities.

The pity is that they don't get an annual un-tax statement every year,
saying how much their very existence is costing the country. There's a
glimmer here and there, with the NHS getting a bit stroppy about missed-
appointments and saying they cost £160 each. No doubt any *attended*
appointment costs on average the same. (But don't get me started on the
zero-sum fallacy of the cost of missed appointments)

>and if they support the system as it is, that isn't about to change.

The thing is, not much of it is *coming* from them either. Taxation is a
burden overwhelmingly on the well-paid.
--
Roland Perry

In message <lfnmvhdvkh3sos1jp14l6t9or5h3rg5jf1@4ax.com>, at 13:26:59 on
Sun, 26 Feb 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 11:52:41 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ttfak0$2svo9$7@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:32 on Sun, 26 Feb
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant a mixture of railway modes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would that affect the price cap or rail card discount?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The tube fare between A and B (via perhaps C) isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>necessarily the same as the National Rail fare between A and
>>>>>>>>>>>>B (via perhaps D). So the fare you are discounting by a third
>>>>>>>>>>>>won't be the same. But at least it'd be clear which of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>two to discount.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, if you changed modes part way, rather than sticking
>>>>>>>>>>>> one mode all the way, the undiscounted fare is difficult to
>>>>>>>>>>>>know especially when the system can't tell where you made the
>>>>>>>>>>>>modal change (in the circumstances there are no barriers to
>>>>>>>>>>>> modes).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hence the Oyster readers on interchange routes in stations like
>>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon
>>>>>>>>>>> and Stratford.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But not, as we've discussed before, at SPILL.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please remind me — why would they be needed?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There may be other
>>>>>>>>>> locations not provisioned as well. Wimbledon probably has them (hence
>>>>>>>>>> the complicated, and confusing for some visitors, rules about
>>>>>>>>>>touching
>>>>>>>>>> in/out/sideways when changing there. Does Stratford have them for the
>>>>>>>>>> cross-platform changes with the Central Line (I haven't been
>>>>>>>>>>to look at
>>>>>>>>>> that specific aspect).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure, but why would they be needed? LE and LU are
>>>>>>>>>treated as one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Completing a journey ('tapping out') that you started with Oyster [or
>>>>>>>> CCC], and changing onto a train bound for somewhere outside the Oyster
>>>>>>>> or CCC area, hence needing independent ticketing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> EL trains don't go outside the cc card area. So, any cross-platform
>>>>>>> interchanges at Stratford are between trains running in the ccc area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you can later change to a train that does go outside the area (or
>>>>>> are there relevant validators at Shenfield, Ealing Broadway etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://oysterfares.com/payg-comes-to-marlow-ealing-broadway-changes/
>>>>
>>>> And Shenfield? Also Romford, where one can change from the EL, to GA
>>>> trains for Southend.
>>>
>>>There's nothing new about that.
>>
>>It doesn't matter if it's new, but that it's broken.
>
>Is it? It seems to be working pretty well, even if there are the
>occasional glitches.

"Occasional glitches" sounds like a barrier broken from time to time.
The issues with ticketing I'm highlighting are long term systemic lack
of provision.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:18:29 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 06/03/2023 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>>
>> *sigh*
>>
>> 1066.
>>
>>
>
>Kept being postponed because of bad weather. Once again England lost on
>penalties.

Actually Harold won the battle against Hardrarda - at the end of september.
Hardly summer.

Its quite likely if it hadn't been for that and Harolds army having to march
200 miles down to hastings so being totally knackered by the time they got
there history would have been very different. I've never seen any mention
of the invasions being co-ordinated but it would hardly be a shock to me if that
was the case.

On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 02:23:06 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>>>That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>
>>IOW a standard poll.
>>
>Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>trying to prevent.

You had your "once in a generation" vote. A generation is at least 20-25 years.
You don't keep having referendums until you get the vote you want. Perhaps
the SNP should concentrate on actually governing rather than treating scotland
as little more than a platform for their ideology.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 08:53:17 +0000
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>On 07/03/2023 02:23, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>> Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>> vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>> counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>> something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>> trying to prevent.
>
>Yes. Voter suppression is something the UK conservatives have in common
>with the US Republicans. Both has their roots in racism.

Racism? Thats a new one. Are the scots a seperate race from the english then?
I suspect genealogists (not to mention geneticists) would disagree.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:18:29 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>>>
>>> *sigh*
>>>
>>> 1066.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Kept being postponed because of bad weather. Once again England lost on
>> penalties.
>
> Actually Harold won the battle against Hardrarda - at the end of september.
> Hardly summer.
>
> Its quite likely if it hadn't been for that and Harolds army having to march
> 200 miles down to hastings so being totally knackered by the time they got
> there history would have been very different. I've never seen any mention
> of the invasions being co-ordinated but it would hardly be a shock to me if that
> was the case.

My school history lessons said it was coordinated, and so did the Ladybird
book I used to have, but Wikipedia doesn’t seem to mention it. Perhaps,
like many English historical certainties it’s turned out to be a myth.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:33:32 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:18:29 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 06/03/2023 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>>>>
>>>> *sigh*
>>>>
>>>> 1066.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Kept being postponed because of bad weather. Once again England lost on
>>> penalties.
>>
>> Actually Harold won the battle against Hardrarda - at the end of september.
>> Hardly summer.
>>
>> Its quite likely if it hadn't been for that and Harolds army having to march
>> 200 miles down to hastings so being totally knackered by the time they got
>> there history would have been very different. I've never seen any mention
>> of the invasions being co-ordinated but it would hardly be a shock to me if
>that
>> was the case.
>
>My school history lessons said it was coordinated, and so did the Ladybird
>book I used to have, but Wikipedia doesn’t seem to mention it. Perhaps,
>like many English historical certainties it’s turned out to be a myth.

A bit like scots prowess on the battlefield. Still, the blue facepaint looks
cool.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 08:34:35 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/03/2023 02:18, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 12:08:21 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/03/2023 11:30, Bob wrote:
>>>> The same problems exist due to the same causes. Zero effort was made to
>>>> actually create governmental systems involving the local population in a
>>>> meaningful way, with sufficient time for them to gain legitimacy in the
>>>> eyes of the governed, before the colonial powers went home and left the
>>>> locals to their own devices.
>>>
>>>
>>> There was in India with an educated class who ran much of the country
>>> but as soon as the British left, they reverted to type and started
>>> killing each other in large numbers thanks to religion mainly.
>>>
>>> The Belgians seem to have treated their colonies worst, along with
>>> perhaps the Portuguese.
>>>
>> The Dutch weren't a lot better.
>>
>
>Read Nathaniel's Nutmeg by Giles Milton to see how bad!

+1 for a fascinating book. But I first heard of the Amboyna Massacre
and the Dutch torturing people by pouring water down their throats in
school in about 1970. Wonder if it's on today's national curriculum?

On 07/03/2023 09:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:18:29 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/03/2023 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>>>
>>> *sigh*
>>>
>>> 1066.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Kept being postponed because of bad weather. Once again England lost on
>> penalties.
>
> Actually Harold won the battle against Hardrarda - at the end of september.
> Hardly summer.

Summer is a moveable feast, dependant on the weather at the time.

>
> Its quite likely if it hadn't been for that and Harolds army having to march
> 200 miles down to hastings so being totally knackered by the time they got
> there history would have been very different. I've never seen any mention
> of the invasions being co-ordinated but it would hardly be a shock to me if that
> was the case.
>

Unlikely, the timing of the Norman invasion was totally dependant on the
weather in the Channel. The reason Harold had to make a forced march
northwards in the first place was that he was waiting in the south most
of the summer in anticipation of William the Bastard's arrival

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/03/2023 09:27, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 02:23:06 +0000
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>>> That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>>
>>> IOW a standard poll.
>>>
>> Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>> vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>> counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>> something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>> trying to prevent.
>
> You had your "once in a generation" vote. A generation is at least 20-25 years.
> You don't keep having referendums until you get the vote you want.

Isn't that what the ERG tried?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/03/2023 09:33, Sam Wilson wrote:
> My school history lessons said it was coordinated, and so did the Ladybird
> book I used to have, but Wikipedia doesn’t seem to mention it. Perhaps,
> like many English historical certainties it’s turned out to be a myth.

Why limit to "English historical certainties"? Doesn't the same apply
to many "Scottish historical certainties", probably worse because of the
nationalists promoting many myths.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:02:08 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 07/03/2023 09:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 22:18:29 +0000
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 06/03/2023 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> There's a reason they, and everybody else, only fought in summer.
>>>>
>>>> *sigh*
>>>>
>>>> 1066.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Kept being postponed because of bad weather. Once again England lost on
>>> penalties.
>>
>> Actually Harold won the battle against Hardrarda - at the end of september.
>> Hardly summer.
>
>Summer is a moveable feast, dependant on the weather at the time.

Ah, the usual uk.railway goalpost shuffle.

>> Its quite likely if it hadn't been for that and Harolds army having to march
>> 200 miles down to hastings so being totally knackered by the time they got
>> there history would have been very different. I've never seen any mention
>> of the invasions being co-ordinated but it would hardly be a shock to me if
>that
>> was the case.
>>
>
>Unlikely, the timing of the Norman invasion was totally dependant on the
>weather in the Channel. The reason Harold had to make a forced march
>northwards in the first place was that he was waiting in the south most
>of the summer in anticipation of William the Bastard's arrival

The vikings could have been delayed too. And don't forget the normans were
simply naturalised vikings - clues in their name - and no doubt had plenty of
connections back in denmark and norway.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:02:45 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 07/03/2023 09:27, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 02:23:06 +0000
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>>> That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>>>
>>>> IOW a standard poll.
>>>>
>>> Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>>> vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>>> counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>>> something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>>> trying to prevent.
>>
>> You had your "once in a generation" vote. A generation is at least 20-25
>years.
>> You don't keep having referendums until you get the vote you want.
>
>
>Isn't that what the ERG tried?

Quite possibly. I have no time for the ERG, they're the tory equivalent of
Momentum.

In message <tu702b$brht$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:39 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 02:23:06 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>>>That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>>
>>>IOW a standard poll.
>>>
>>Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>>vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>>counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>>something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>>trying to prevent.
>
>You had your "once in a generation" vote. A generation is at least 20-25 years.
>You don't keep having referendums until you get the vote you want.

I vote for proper plurals, so multiple referenda, please.

--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:02:50 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tu702b$brht$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:39 on Tue, 7 Mar
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 02:23:06 +0000
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>wrote:
>>>>>That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>>>
>>>>IOW a standard poll.
>>>>
>>>Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>>>vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>>>counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>>>something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>>>trying to prevent.
>>
>>You had your "once in a generation" vote. A generation is at least 20-25
>years.
>>You don't keep having referendums until you get the vote you want.
>
>I vote for proper plurals, so multiple referenda, please.

Proper plurals in English generally have an 's' applied, sheep notwithstanding.
Using an 'a' instead is just being a latin snob :)

On 07.03.23 10:01, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ttl9ti$3l4n4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:25:21 on Tue, 28 Feb
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 28.02.23 15:59, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ttj56n$3bo8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:52:39 on Mon, 27 Feb
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/02/2023 18:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Yes. But you could ignore it. Being an EU citizen imposed no personal
>>>>>> obligations on you. Losing my citizenship removes real practical rights
>>>>>> from me, such as being able to work in any EU country or being
>>>>>> able to stay
>>>>>> in other EU countries for lengthy periods.
>>>>>
>>>>> Will the SNP have as much support in the future? It seems to have
>>>>> dropped since Sturgeon's resignation and will it fall further now we
>>>>> seem to know why she resigned.
>>>>
>>>> I’m told by young people I know in Glasgow that the desire for
>>>> independence is very strong amongst the young, and figures I have
>>>> seen confirm this. Now this can go two ways - these people remain
>>>> of that view as they age and more independence minded youngsters
>>>> come up behind them. On the other hand perhaps they change their
>>>> mind with age and the status quo remains.
>
>>> The problem with "the young" is they don't understand where the
>>> money has come from to featherbed them most of their life so far.
>>> When they grow up and have kids asking to borrow from bank-of-mum-
>>> and-dad, or get a role as councillor having to decide which 10% of
>>> deserving community applications gets to be awarded a grant this
>>> year, the perspective changes.
>>
>> Conversely the problem with "the old" is that they have completely lost
>> touch with how much the world has changed since their youth, and don't
>> realise that the opportunities they were able to take advantage of in
>> getting a start in life don't exist anymore.
>
> Old opportunities have been replaced by new. We didn't have Linked-In
> back then.
>
> The most significant chilling factor has undoubtedly been increased
> regulation, not that some of it isn't necessary to protect the
> vulnerable from predators.
>
>> When young people realise that, while their parents could afford a
>> deposit on a house and get a mortgage on a single working class income
>> in their 20s, today the deposit on a modest house is more than a full
>> year's graduate income,
>
> Of course, houses are more sophisticated nowadays. My parents' fairly
> new build when I was a University student didn't have central heating,
> double glazing hadn't been invented, a fridge was a luxury and no such
> thing as a fitted kitchen (we had a cupboard under the sink and one
> wall-hanging unit). Let alone all the TVs, computers and other
> paraphernalia will fill our houses with.

From about 1915 to about 1992, with the exception of a a few brief
peaks, the average house price in the UK was 4 to 5 times the average
annual income. It is now 9 times. Fitting central heating, a modern
kitchen, and all the modern gadgetry to a normal house does not cost
150,000 pounds, so the increase in price can not be explained on those
grounds.

>> and that the marvelous economy they are supposed to be in favour of has
>> inflation running in double digits
>
> It was like that in 1980 when I bought my first house (a modest two-bed
> terrace). The deposit for which was about half my middle-manager annual
> salary.
>
> <https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/historical-
> inflation-1860-600x440.png.webp>

Looking at typical 2 bed row houses in London commuter land, a ballpark
price is somewhere in the 350,000 range. Someone earnign 50% more than
the median income is looking at around 50,000 pa. If they put half their
income down, that would mean they would need a 6.5xincome mortgage to
buy such a property, and if they had a 5% interest mortgage, 1/3 of
their income is going on interest alone, never mind paying down the
principal. That's assuming they could get such a mortgage in the first
place.

>> and working people depending on food banks to get by,
>
> There's a lot of fake-news here (not that food banks aren't necessary).
> Nurses using food banks tend to turn out to be single mothers working
> two days a week, which is a bit of a special case.

Is it? Why should anyone working and raising a family not be able to
actually afford to feed them. There is supposed to be a social safety
net that allows people to bring up a modest family while working,
without depending on hand-outs to not starve. There certainly used to be
such a system, but it seems to have gone now.

>> it's no wonder "the young" don't see where the money has come from:
>> none of that money is coming to them,
>
> If they are on any form of benefits or <thread convergence> got
> subsidised rail/bus fares, or rely on any local government services
> which are typically 50% nationally funded, or in education, or using the
> NHS, or relying on advice/support from charities [including food
> banks!], there's a huge inward flow of funds supporting their everyday
> activities.

You seem to have missed where the average university degree results in
racking up in excess of 25k in debt. We are supposed to (and used to)
have a social security system that meant that people doing a job didn't
need to depend on charities to eat or heat their homes. Seems to have
gone away somewhere.

> The pity is that they don't get an annual un-tax statement every year,
> saying how much their very existence is costing the country. There's a
> glimmer here and there, with the NHS getting a bit stroppy about missed-
> appointments and saying they cost £160 each. No doubt any *attended*
> appointment costs on average the same. (But don't get me started on the
> zero-sum fallacy of the cost of missed appointments)
>
>> and if they support the system as it is, that isn't about to change.
>
> The thing is, not much of it is *coming* from them either. Taxation is a
> burden overwhelmingly on the well-paid.

If only there were jobs for young people that would allow them to get
into that category. It seems if you want to enter the workforce at
around the median income level, you have to borrow tens of thousands of
pounds to go through university to qualify in the first place.
Unfortunately jobs that used to be well paid for people starting on
their careers seem to have stopped being so. Not just the public sector,
but the private sector too.

Robin

In message <tu73bo$cbtg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:23:52 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:02:50 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tu702b$brht$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:39 on Tue, 7 Mar
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Tue, 07 Mar 2023 02:23:06 +0000
>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 09:26:52 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>That "below 40%" is when the don't knows/don't cares/FOAMYOB are
>>>>>
>>>>>IOW a standard poll.
>>>>>
>>>>Those who don't vote don't count; those who tell you to FOAMYOB might
>>>>vote either way. There is also the aspect that the only poll which
>>>>counts is the one which all voters have the opportunity to attend,
>>>>something which only the Westminster government has been actively
>>>>trying to prevent.
>>>
>>>You had your "once in a generation" vote. A generation is at least 20-25
>>years.
>>>You don't keep having referendums until you get the vote you want.
>>
>>I vote for proper plurals, so multiple referenda, please.
>
>Proper plurals in English generally have an 's' applied, sheep notwithstanding.
>Using an 'a' instead is just being a latin snob :)

Panini (singular is Panino).
--
Roland Perry