In message <tu8730$hv6m$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:33:32 on Tue, 7 Mar
2023, Dave Jackson <dave@dave-jackson.org.uk> remarked:
>On 07/03/2023 18:27, Coffee wrote:
>> The conservatives are requiring voters to show a photo ID when they
>>vote.  It's not been well publicised anyway as you've not heard of it
>>until now you are living proof.
>
>We had a letter from the local council (Cheshire West) explaining how
>to obtain an official ID document if no "regular" one was available.
>The letter also pointed out "No ID, No Vote". Our post-girl told me
>that the letter was delivered to every household.

There was a leaflet in the envelope containing my Council Tax bill which
arrived on Monday.
--
Roland Perry

In message <rejf0ipaaapiafjhb97jpu2lru4jdmjdvv@4ax.com>, at 16:13:06 on
Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:

>Shall we also consider media? Radio is one medium... TV is another
>medium... both are the media.

Old joke: Why is TV called a medium? A: Because it's rarely well done.
--
Roland Perry

In message <s69f0il61or6ppq5k1fhkm147muctpg10l@4ax.com>, at 21:01:44 on
Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 18:27:38 +0000, Coffee
><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 07/03/2023 17:10, MB wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2023 16:21, Coffee wrote:
>>>> Not at all.  The voter suppression in this case is that the parties are
>>>> trying to prevent groups of people who don't support them.  In many
>>>> cases this will ethnic minorities particularly the young.
>>>
>>>
>>> Which vote are you claiming is being suppressed?
>>>
>>> Do you want all votes open to anyone to vote in, whatever their
>>> nationality and residence?
>>>
>>> Perhaps you believe in the Irish principle of 'Vote Early, Vote Often'?
>>
>>The conservatives are requiring voters to show a photo ID when they
>>vote. It's not been well publicised anyway as you've not heard of it
>>until now you are living proof.
>>
>>It's the young and the ethnic minorities who are least likely to have a
>>photo ID.
>
>That's not actually true. The young are the group most likely to have some
>form of photo ID, because they can't buy alcohol without it. Getting a PASS
>card is pretty much a rite of passage these days (and a PASS card is one of
>the accepted forms of voter ID). Young people are used to having ID, and
>don't have any difficulty with using the Internet to register for it.
>
>The people least likely to have photo ID are older people who don't drive
>and don't have a passport. And they are also the ones most likely to have
>difficulty with an online system for obtaining photo ID.

But many of those will have a twirly card[1]. As far as I can see the
free voter-ID is basically produced through the same process as those
(who also do do blue badges, again acceptable.

[1] Older Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
Disabled Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
Oyster 60+ Card funded by the Government of the United Kingdom
Freedom Pass
Scottish National Entitlement Card
60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
Disabled Person’s Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
Senior SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
Registered Blind SmartPass or Blind Person’s SmartPass issued in NI.
War Disablement SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
60+ SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
Half Fare SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland

--
Roland Perry

On 08/03/2023 09:29, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 08:40:30, Bob wrote:
>> On 07.03.23 21:13, Graham Nye wrote:
>
>>> ... I'm commenting on English voting (as that's where
>>> I live). In nearly 3 decades of voting at the same polling station I
>>> haven't recognised any of the polling officials and they haven't
>>> recognised me. We are sent a polling card with our name and address on
>>> it, but no photo id, but you don't have to vote with it. You can just
>>> turn up and claim to be someone.
>>
>> You would have to turn up with a polling card of someone who is
>> plausibly you,
>
> A fraudster doesn't have to turn up with a polling card, they just need
> to know someone's name and address and appear to be the same sex.
>
>> and ensure the person you are pretending to be also
>> doesn't turn up to vote.
>
> I mentioned that several posts ago.
>
>> If they turn up with their polling card and
>> discover someone claiming to be them has already voted, your game is up.
>
> Indeed. Hence the advice to "Vote early".
>
>> To swing the vote in even a single constitutency you would need
>> thousands of votes.
>
> Presumably a fraudster would try this in a vote where a narrow margin was
> expected. That's more likely in local elections, which will also require
> photo id. You might also have more than one fraudster.
>
>> It just isn't practical to pull something like that off without getting
>> detected, and almost certainly not possible without getting caught.
>> Suppose a polling station that on a normal election day gets maybe one
>> or two mistakes resulting in a person trying to vote under a name that
>> has already voted due to human error, finds by lunchtime, this has
>> happened 100 times. By 2pm there will be police hanging around watching
>> closely. As you go in again and again to keep casting false votes, your
>> face will be noticed, and you will find yourself before a judge.
>
> Well, that would be a particularly incompetent fraudster who rather
> deserves their fate. If someone gets rumbled and manages to talk their
> way out of it once they would be best advised to not try again, at least
> at that polling station.
>
>

You are fighting a wholly theoretical argument. In 50 years of covering
elections I have never come across a single verifiable instance of voter
fraud. When they widened access to postal votes to anyone who wanted,
rather than having to justify having one, there was the same reaction
from the usual suspects but they never came up with an example.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/03/2023 10:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <k6pk7gFpbvcU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:13:36 on Tue, 7 Mar
> 2023, Graham Nye <nospam@thenyes.org.uk> remarked:
>> On 2023-03-07 19:05:15, John Levine wrote:
>>> According to Graham Nye  <news@thenyes.org.uk>:
>>>>> No, it’s that voter ID is being introduced to solve a problem that
>>>>> doesn’t  exist - there are almost no examples of fraudulent voting
>>>>> under the current  system
>>>>
>>>> We don't know that. The current system isn't set up to detect it so
>>>> we don't
>>>> know if there's fraudulent voting or not. If a fraudulent voter
>>>> chooses to
>>>> vote in the name of someone they know won't vote it will never be
>>>> detected.
>
>>>  If I were trying to come up with the absolutely least effective way
>>> of  stealing an election, casting fake votes in person one at a time
>>> would  be it.
>
> Much better to spend some time reminding people who you canvassed
> earlier, and plausibly said they'd be supporting you, to actually
> go out and vote.
>
>>> A few milliseconds of thought should reveal that if a handful  of
>>> people did it, it would be unlikely to make any difference,
>>
>> It depends how close the ballot is in a particular constituency.
>> Sometimes
>> a few votes would be enough to swing a result. Other times you would need
>> thousands of fake votes.
>
> In many safe seats you'd need so many it would stick out like a sore
> thumb. Even in marginal seats, you won't know for sure until the poll
> has been counted how close it's going to be.
>
>>> while
>>> if there were organized mass fake voting, it would be obvious that
>>> something was wrong. Dunno how it works where you are, but here in the
>>> U.S. the poll officials are mostly grey haired ladies from the
>>> community who know a lot of the voters.
>>
>> This is a UK group so I'm commenting on English voting (as that's where
>> I live). In nearly 3 decades of voting at the same polling station I
>> haven't recognised any of the polling officials and they haven't
>> recognised me. We are sent a polling card with our name and address on
>> it, but no photo id, but you don't have to vote with it. You can just
>> turn up and claim to be someone.
>>
>>> The way you steal an election is to stuff lots of ballots into the box,
>>> preferably right after the polls close so you know how many you need.
>>
>> So you're moving the goalposts from fraudulent voting to mass fraudulent
>> voting? That's not a threat that is addressed by photo id. That's why
>> the ballot boxes are sealed and escorted to the counting location.
>
> You still have to trust the person sealing them up, and also the people
> at the counting location opening them up again. (I'm not suggesting that
> either is a tangible risk though).
>

Certainly at the count there are too many members of the press around,
with cameras, to make tampering with boxes a viable proposition. Even
more so now when everyone has a camera-phone in their pocket.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/03/2023 10:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <rejf0ipaaapiafjhb97jpu2lru4jdmjdvv@4ax.com>, at 16:13:06 on
> Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> remarked:
>
>> Shall we also consider media?  Radio is one medium... TV is another
>> medium... both are the media.
>
> Old joke: Why is TV called a medium? A: Because it's rarely well done.

Apparently the BBC are preparing a documentary celebrating the 100th
anniversary of the telling of that joke.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08.03.23 11:38, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:39:40 +0000
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:15:42 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> According to Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>:
>>>>>> Panini (singular is Panino).
>>>>>
>>>>> Only in Italian. English has a long history of nicking other language’s
>>>>> words. It doesn’t necessarily simultaneously nick the grammar rules.
>>>>
>>>> You're right. The data is clear about that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Data is/are is a real bugbear of mine. Scientists over correct to use are
>>> in attempt to sound smart.
>>
>> This was discussed on More or Less a couple of weeks ago. Tim Harford
>> was horrified to learn that data treated as singular is now no longer
>> considered wrong.
>>
>> I worked in IT from 1974 after taking some CS modules at university
>> and didn't hear data used as a plural for years, despite learning
>> Latin at school. Its use actually seems to have increased.
>
> Certain words are one or many, eg rain, snow. Data is one of them. You don't
> say "we had some snows today", similarly we don't say "datas".

The term for that is a "mass noun".

There is also the fact that the latin singular, datum, has aquired a
distinct and separate meaning: the reference points against which other
data is measured. For example the reference for sea level on OS maps is
the "OS datum", he mean sea level at a particular point in Newlyn, Cornwall.

Robin

On 08/03/2023 01:54, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:19:34 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 07/03/2023 18:27, Coffee wrote:
>>> It's the young and the ethnic minorities who are least likely to have a
>>> photo ID.
>>
>>
>> That is what they claim though sure will most will have several
>> different photo IDs.
>>
> Nobody seems to have mentioned the poor who tend not to vote for
> parties associated with big business.

I mentioned the UK conservatives and USA republicans who are leading
this voter suppression at the start of this sub-thread.

On 08/03/2023 01:58, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 22:46:12 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2023 21:01, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>>> The people least likely to have photo ID are older people who don't drive
>>>> and don't have a passport. And they are also the ones most likely to have
>>>> difficulty with an online system for obtaining photo ID.
>>>
>>
>>> But most will have a bus pass (under various names).
>>>
>>
>> Yes, and those are acceptable (all over the UK, not just the area of
>> validity of the pass).
>>
> Bus passes come in different forms and do not have equal status for
> age verification. None are acceptable "all over the UK" on buses.
>
>> Also, out-of-date photo ID is acceptable, as long as the appearance still
>> matches.
>>
> Some not all, depending on what proof was required for their issue.

My bus pass which is issued by Transport for Wales and has a photograph
is apparently acceptable.

My 23 year old friend does not have any acceptable ID.

On 08/03/2023 03:22, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 03:02:59 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 22:46:12 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/03/2023 21:01, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>>>>> The people least likely to have photo ID are older people who don't drive
>>>>>> and don't have a passport. And they are also the ones most likely to have
>>>>>> difficulty with an online system for obtaining photo ID.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But most will have a bus pass (under various names).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and those are acceptable (all over the UK, not just the area of
>>>> validity of the pass).
>>>>
>>> Bus passes come in different forms and do not have equal status for
>>> age verification. None are acceptable "all over the UK" on buses.
>>
>> Nobody said they were. You seem to be confused.
>>
> I am not confused. If they aren't valid on a bus then why should they
> be valid for voting?
> <snip>

"You can still use your photo ID if it's out of date, as long as it
looks like you."

On 08/03/2023 10:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <s69f0il61or6ppq5k1fhkm147muctpg10l@4ax.com>, at 21:01:44 on
> Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 18:27:38 +0000, Coffee
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/03/2023 17:10, MB wrote:
>>>> On 07/03/2023 16:21, Coffee wrote:
>>>>> Not at all.  The voter suppression in this case is that the parties
>>>>> are
>>>>> trying to prevent groups of people who don't support them.  In many
>>>>> cases this will ethnic minorities particularly the young.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which vote are you claiming is being suppressed?
>>>>
>>>> Do you want all votes open to anyone to vote in, whatever their
>>>> nationality and residence?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you believe in the Irish principle of 'Vote Early, Vote Often'?
>>>
>>> The conservatives are requiring voters to show a photo ID when they
>>> vote.  It's not been well publicised anyway as you've not heard of it
>>> until now you are living proof.
>>>
>>> It's the young and the ethnic minorities who are least likely to have a
>>> photo ID.
>>
>> That's not actually true. The young are the group most likely to have
>> some
>> form of photo ID, because they can't buy alcohol without it. Getting a
>> PASS
>> card is pretty much a rite of passage these days (and a PASS card is
>> one of
>> the accepted forms of voter ID). Young people are used to having ID, and
>> don't have any difficulty with using the Internet to register for it.
>>
>> The people least likely to have photo ID are older people who don't drive
>> and don't have a passport. And they are also the ones most likely to have
>> difficulty with an online system for obtaining photo ID.
>
> But many of those will have a twirly card[1]. As far as I can see the
> free voter-ID is basically produced through the same process as those
> (who also do do blue badges, again acceptable.
>
> [1] Older Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
>     Disabled Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
>     Oyster 60+ Card funded by the Government of the United Kingdom
>     Freedom Pass
>     Scottish National Entitlement Card
>     60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
>     Disabled Person’s Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
>     Senior SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>     Registered Blind SmartPass or Blind Person’s SmartPass issued in NI.
>     War Disablement SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>     60+ SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>     Half Fare SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>

According to that I cannot use my bus pass because mine is funded by the
Welsh Government not the Government of the UK.

On 08/03/2023 11:09, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 08/03/2023 10:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <k6pk7gFpbvcU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:13:36 on Tue, 7
>> Mar 2023, Graham Nye <nospam@thenyes.org.uk> remarked:
>>> On 2023-03-07 19:05:15, John Levine wrote:
>>>> According to Graham Nye  <news@thenyes.org.uk>:
>>>>>> No, it’s that voter ID is being introduced to solve a problem that
>>>>>> doesn’t  exist - there are almost no examples of fraudulent voting
>>>>>> under the current  system
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't know that. The current system isn't set up to detect it so
>>>>> we don't
>>>>> know if there's fraudulent voting or not. If a fraudulent voter
>>>>> chooses to
>>>>> vote in the name of someone they know won't vote it will never be
>>>>> detected.
>>
>>>>  If I were trying to come up with the absolutely least effective way
>>>> of  stealing an election, casting fake votes in person one at a time
>>>> would  be it.
>>
>> Much better to spend some time reminding people who you canvassed
>> earlier, and plausibly said they'd be supporting you, to actually
>> go out and vote.
>>
>>>> A few milliseconds of thought should reveal that if a handful  of
>>>> people did it, it would be unlikely to make any difference,
>>>
>>> It depends how close the ballot is in a particular constituency.
>>> Sometimes
>>> a few votes would be enough to swing a result. Other times you would
>>> need
>>> thousands of fake votes.
>>
>> In many safe seats you'd need so many it would stick out like a sore
>> thumb. Even in marginal seats, you won't know for sure until the poll
>> has been counted how close it's going to be.
>>
>>>> while
>>>> if there were organized mass fake voting, it would be obvious that
>>>> something was wrong. Dunno how it works where you are, but here in the
>>>> U.S. the poll officials are mostly grey haired ladies from the
>>>> community who know a lot of the voters.
>>>
>>> This is a UK group so I'm commenting on English voting (as that's where
>>> I live). In nearly 3 decades of voting at the same polling station I
>>> haven't recognised any of the polling officials and they haven't
>>> recognised me. We are sent a polling card with our name and address on
>>> it, but no photo id, but you don't have to vote with it. You can just
>>> turn up and claim to be someone.
>>>
>>>> The way you steal an election is to stuff lots of ballots into the box,
>>>> preferably right after the polls close so you know how many you need.
>>>
>>> So you're moving the goalposts from fraudulent voting to mass fraudulent
>>> voting? That's not a threat that is addressed by photo id. That's why
>>> the ballot boxes are sealed and escorted to the counting location.
>>
>> You still have to trust the person sealing them up, and also the
>> people at the counting location opening them up again. (I'm not
>> suggesting that either is a tangible risk though).
>>
>
> Certainly at the count there are too many members of the press around,
> with cameras, to make tampering with boxes a viable proposition. Even
> more so now when everyone has a camera-phone in their pocket.

I'm surprised the use of camera-phones is permitted at the count.

On 2023-03-08 09:59:45, Bob wrote:

> The point is there is a very high risk of detection. Even if they have
> trouble catching you in the act, they will detect what is going on,

Only if the impersonated voter turns up and votes. If they don't, either
because the fraudster knows in advance they won't vote or the fraudster
relies on a possibly 2/3rds chance they won't bother, there's no mechanism
to detect such impersonation. I did mention this yesterday.

My underlying point is that we don't know how much impersonation there is
(or isn't) as there is no method of detecting successful impersonation.
So claims that we don't need to bother with photo id because impersonation
doesn't occur are not, and cannot be, backed with evidence.

--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 08/03/2023 12:29, Coffee wrote:
> According to that I cannot use my bus pass because mine is funded by the
> Welsh Government not the Government of the UK.

Is it not this which is in the list.

"60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card"

On 2023-03-08 12:15:45, Coffee wrote:

> My 23 year old friend does not have any acceptable ID.

Can we assume your friend is teetotal? Are we returning
to goatherder territory? Is your friend the only 23 year
old in the country without a smartphone and the ability
to apply online for a free ID?

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate

Or offline via their Electoral Registration Office
(probably their local council office).

--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 08.03.23 13:52, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 09:59:45, Bob wrote:
>
>> The point is there is a very high risk of detection. Even if they have
>> trouble catching you in the act, they will detect what is going on,
>
> Only if the impersonated voter turns up and votes. If they don't, either
> because the fraudster knows in advance they won't vote or the fraudster
> relies on a possibly 2/3rds chance they won't bother, there's no mechanism
> to detect such impersonation. I did mention this yesterday.

From a basic statistics point of view, the chance of getting away with
it a non-trivial number of times is tiny. If 2/3 of people don't vote,
then the probability that if I personate a random elector of getting
caught is 33%. If I do it to 10 random electors, the chance of getting
away with it drops to 10%. If I do it for 100 random electors, that
drops to 1.1%. The chances of being able to do it enough times to
actually affect the outcome of a vote and for it not to be noticed is
miniscule.

Robin

On 08/03/2023 13:00, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 12:15:45, Coffee wrote:
>
>> My 23 year old friend does not have any acceptable ID.
>
> Can we assume your friend is teetotal? Are we returning
> to goatherder territory? Is your friend the only 23 year
> old in the country without a smartphone and the ability
> to apply online for a free ID?
>
> https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate
>
> Or offline via their Electoral Registration Office
> (probably their local council office).
>
It's applied for but not arrived so I was totally accurate in saying she
does not have an acceptable ID.

This is a lot of public money being wasted all in the name of
suppressing voters unlikely to vote for the conservatives.
I guess it's the opposite of gerrymandering.

On 08/03/2023 12:31, Coffee wrote:
> On 08/03/2023 11:09, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 08/03/2023 10:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <k6pk7gFpbvcU1@mid.individual.net>, at 20:13:36 on Tue, 7
>>> Mar 2023, Graham Nye <nospam@thenyes.org.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 2023-03-07 19:05:15, John Levine wrote:
>>>>> According to Graham Nye  <news@thenyes.org.uk>:
>>>>>>> No, it’s that voter ID is being introduced to solve a problem
>>>>>>> that doesn’t  exist - there are almost no examples of fraudulent
>>>>>>> voting under the current  system
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't know that. The current system isn't set up to detect it
>>>>>> so we don't
>>>>>> know if there's fraudulent voting or not. If a fraudulent voter
>>>>>> chooses to
>>>>>> vote in the name of someone they know won't vote it will never be
>>>>>> detected.
>>>
>>>>>  If I were trying to come up with the absolutely least effective
>>>>> way of  stealing an election, casting fake votes in person one at a
>>>>> time would  be it.
>>>
>>> Much better to spend some time reminding people who you canvassed
>>> earlier, and plausibly said they'd be supporting you, to actually
>>> go out and vote.
>>>
>>>>> A few milliseconds of thought should reveal that if a handful  of
>>>>> people did it, it would be unlikely to make any difference,
>>>>
>>>> It depends how close the ballot is in a particular constituency.
>>>> Sometimes
>>>> a few votes would be enough to swing a result. Other times you would
>>>> need
>>>> thousands of fake votes.
>>>
>>> In many safe seats you'd need so many it would stick out like a sore
>>> thumb. Even in marginal seats, you won't know for sure until the poll
>>> has been counted how close it's going to be.
>>>
>>>>> while
>>>>> if there were organized mass fake voting, it would be obvious that
>>>>> something was wrong. Dunno how it works where you are, but here in the
>>>>> U.S. the poll officials are mostly grey haired ladies from the
>>>>> community who know a lot of the voters.
>>>>
>>>> This is a UK group so I'm commenting on English voting (as that's where
>>>> I live). In nearly 3 decades of voting at the same polling station I
>>>> haven't recognised any of the polling officials and they haven't
>>>> recognised me. We are sent a polling card with our name and address on
>>>> it, but no photo id, but you don't have to vote with it. You can just
>>>> turn up and claim to be someone.
>>>>
>>>>> The way you steal an election is to stuff lots of ballots into the
>>>>> box,
>>>>> preferably right after the polls close so you know how many you need.
>>>>
>>>> So you're moving the goalposts from fraudulent voting to mass
>>>> fraudulent
>>>> voting? That's not a threat that is addressed by photo id. That's why
>>>> the ballot boxes are sealed and escorted to the counting location.
>>>
>>> You still have to trust the person sealing them up, and also the
>>> people at the counting location opening them up again. (I'm not
>>> suggesting that either is a tangible risk though).
>>>
>>
>> Certainly at the count there are too many members of the press around,
>> with cameras, to make tampering with boxes a viable proposition. Even
>> more so now when everyone has a camera-phone in their pocket.
>
> I'm surprised the use of camera-phones is permitted at the count.

Why? I'm allowed to wander around with a TV camera, there are usually
stills guys, at least from the local press, around as well. Each party
involved in the election has observers there and the returning officer
and his assistants are there to oversee everything. The general public
are allowed to watch the count. On top of that there will be a police
presence.

All the votes are, by definition, anonymous, so there are no privacy
problems. At no point in the proceedings, from polling station to count,
are any of the boxes solely in the custody of a single person.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/03/2023 12:29, Coffee wrote:
> On 08/03/2023 10:40, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <s69f0il61or6ppq5k1fhkm147muctpg10l@4ax.com>, at 21:01:44
>> on Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 18:27:38 +0000, Coffee
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/03/2023 17:10, MB wrote:
>>>>> On 07/03/2023 16:21, Coffee wrote:
>>>>>> Not at all.  The voter suppression in this case is that the
>>>>>> parties are
>>>>>> trying to prevent groups of people who don't support them.  In many
>>>>>> cases this will ethnic minorities particularly the young.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Which vote are you claiming is being suppressed?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want all votes open to anyone to vote in, whatever their
>>>>> nationality and residence?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you believe in the Irish principle of 'Vote Early, Vote
>>>>> Often'?
>>>>
>>>> The conservatives are requiring voters to show a photo ID when they
>>>> vote.  It's not been well publicised anyway as you've not heard of it
>>>> until now you are living proof.
>>>>
>>>> It's the young and the ethnic minorities who are least likely to have a
>>>> photo ID.
>>>
>>> That's not actually true. The young are the group most likely to have
>>> some
>>> form of photo ID, because they can't buy alcohol without it. Getting
>>> a PASS
>>> card is pretty much a rite of passage these days (and a PASS card is
>>> one of
>>> the accepted forms of voter ID). Young people are used to having ID, and
>>> don't have any difficulty with using the Internet to register for it.
>>>
>>> The people least likely to have photo ID are older people who don't
>>> drive
>>> and don't have a passport. And they are also the ones most likely to
>>> have
>>> difficulty with an online system for obtaining photo ID.
>>
>> But many of those will have a twirly card[1]. As far as I can see the
>> free voter-ID is basically produced through the same process as those
>> (who also do do blue badges, again acceptable.
>>
>> [1] Older Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
>>      Disabled Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
>>      Oyster 60+ Card funded by the Government of the United Kingdom
>>      Freedom Pass
>>      Scottish National Entitlement Card
>>      60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
>>      Disabled Person’s Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
>>      Senior SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>      Registered Blind SmartPass or Blind Person’s SmartPass issued in NI.
>>      War Disablement SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>      60+ SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>      Half Fare SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>
>
> According to that I cannot use my bus pass because mine is funded by the
> Welsh Government not the Government of the UK.

60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card (see list above)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <tu9qcn$sl9f$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:11 on Wed, 8 Mar
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>>> The way you steal an election is to stuff lots of ballots into the box,
>>>> preferably right after the polls close so you know how many you need.
>>>
>>> So you're moving the goalposts from fraudulent voting to mass fraudulent
>>> voting? That's not a threat that is addressed by photo id. That's why
>>> the ballot boxes are sealed and escorted to the counting location.

>> You still have to trust the person sealing them up, and also the
>>people at the counting location opening them up again. (I'm not
>>suggesting that either is a tangible risk though).
>
>Certainly at the count there are too many members of the press around,
>with cameras, to make tampering with boxes a viable proposition. Even
>more so now when everyone has a camera-phone in their pocket.

The process at the count I assisted with, involved gathering all the
ballot boxes from around the half-a-county catchment area in a hall,
and opening them up and getting them ready to be leafed through the
following morning. When we turned up at 8am, the only people there were
a handful of weary officials who'd work at that through the might.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu9s08$stqa$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:37 on Wed, 8 Mar
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 08.03.23 11:38, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Mar 2023 09:39:40 +0000
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 19:15:42 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>>> According to Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> Panini (singular is Panino).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only in Italian. English has a long history of nicking other language’s
>>>>>> words. It doesn’t necessarily simultaneously nick the grammar rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're right. The data is clear about that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Data is/are is a real bugbear of mine. Scientists over correct to use are
>>>> in attempt to sound smart.
>>>
>>> This was discussed on More or Less a couple of weeks ago. Tim Harford
>>> was horrified to learn that data treated as singular is now no longer
>>> considered wrong.
>>>
>>> I worked in IT from 1974 after taking some CS modules at university
>>> and didn't hear data used as a plural for years, despite learning
>>> Latin at school. Its use actually seems to have increased.
>> Certain words are one or many, eg rain, snow. Data is one of them.
>>You don't
>> say "we had some snows today", similarly we don't say "datas".
>
>The term for that is a "mass noun".
>
>There is also the fact that the latin singular, datum, has aquired a
>distinct and separate meaning: the reference points against which other
>data is measured. For example the reference for sea level on OS maps is
>the "OS datum", he mean sea level at a particular point in Newlyn,
>Cornwall.

Some words have more than one meaning:

noun: datum; plural noun: data

1. a piece of information.
"the fact is a datum worth taking into account"

2. a fixed starting point of a scale or operation.
"an accurate datum is formed by which other machining
operations can be carried out"
--
Roland Perry

In message <tu9v3l$t7fk$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:29:41 on Wed, 8 Mar
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 08/03/2023 10:40, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <s69f0il61or6ppq5k1fhkm147muctpg10l@4ax.com>, at 21:01:44
>>on Tue, 7 Mar 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 18:27:38 +0000, Coffee
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/03/2023 17:10, MB wrote:
>>>>> On 07/03/2023 16:21, Coffee wrote:
>>>>>> Not at all.  The voter suppression in this case is that the
>>>>>>parties are
>>>>>> trying to prevent groups of people who don't support them.  In many
>>>>>> cases this will ethnic minorities particularly the young.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Which vote are you claiming is being suppressed?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want all votes open to anyone to vote in, whatever their
>>>>> nationality and residence?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you believe in the Irish principle of 'Vote Early, Vote Often'?
>>>>
>>>> The conservatives are requiring voters to show a photo ID when they
>>>> vote.  It's not been well publicised anyway as you've not heard of it
>>>> until now you are living proof.
>>>>
>>>> It's the young and the ethnic minorities who are least likely to have a
>>>> photo ID.
>>>
>>> That's not actually true. The young are the group most likely to
>>>have some
>>> form of photo ID, because they can't buy alcohol without it. Getting
>>>a PASS
>>> card is pretty much a rite of passage these days (and a PASS card is
>>>one of
>>> the accepted forms of voter ID). Young people are used to having ID, and
>>> don't have any difficulty with using the Internet to register for it.
>>>
>>> The people least likely to have photo ID are older people who don't drive
>>> and don't have a passport. And they are also the ones most likely to have
>>> difficulty with an online system for obtaining photo ID.

>> But many of those will have a twirly card[1]. As far as I can see
>>the free voter-ID is basically produced through the same process as
>>those (who also do do blue badges, again acceptable.

>> [1] Older Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
>>     Disabled Person’s Bus Pass funded by the Government of the UK
>>     Oyster 60+ Card funded by the Government of the United Kingdom
>>     Freedom Pass
>>     Scottish National Entitlement Card
>>     60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>     Disabled Person’s Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
>>     Senior SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>     Registered Blind SmartPass or Blind Person’s SmartPass issued in
>>NI.
>>     War Disablement SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>     60+ SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>>     Half Fare SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
>
>According to that I cannot use my bus pass because mine is funded by
>the Welsh Government not the Government of the UK.

It's not in the list above?
--
Roland Perry

On 2023-03-08 13:30:10, Coffee wrote:
>> On 2023-03-08 12:15:45, Coffee wrote:
>>
>>> My 23 year old friend does not have any acceptable ID.
>>
....
>>
> It's applied for but not arrived so I was totally accurate in saying she
> does not have an acceptable ID.

Accurate, but misleading.

> This is a lot of public money being wasted all in the name of
> suppressing voters unlikely to vote for the conservatives.

The voter suppression claim might be more credible if there wasn't
so much publicity for getting a free id (see multiple posts on this
subject).

--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 08/03/2023 16:32, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2023-03-08 13:30:10, Coffee wrote:
>>> On 2023-03-08 12:15:45, Coffee wrote:
>>>
>>>> My 23 year old friend does not have any acceptable ID.
>>>
> ...
>>>
>> It's applied for but not arrived so I was totally accurate in saying she
>> does not have an acceptable ID.
>
> Accurate, but misleading.
>
>> This is a lot of public money being wasted all in the name of
>> suppressing voters unlikely to vote for the conservatives.
>
> The voter suppression claim might be more credible if there wasn't
> so much publicity for getting a free id (see multiple posts on this
> subject).

The only publicity I've seen is UK based online news articles and
presumably TV news broadcasts. Do you seriously think ethnic minorities
pay these any attention.

On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:13:36 +0000, Coffee
<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 08/03/2023 01:54, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:19:34 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/03/2023 18:27, Coffee wrote:
>>>> It's the young and the ethnic minorities who are least likely to have a
>>>> photo ID.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is what they claim though sure will most will have several
>>> different photo IDs.
>>>
>> Nobody seems to have mentioned the poor who tend not to vote for
>> parties associated with big business.
>
>I mentioned the UK conservatives and USA republicans who are leading
>this voter suppression at the start of this sub-thread.
>
Which seems to have been conveniently forgotten/ snipped out as the
thread progresses.