As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>

On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>
>

That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>
>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>
>That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>

I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....

The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.

The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>
>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>
>>That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>
>I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>
>The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>
>The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>of jobs at freight forwarding companies".

I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport
holders, so we might have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.

In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>
>>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>
>>>That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>
>>I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>
>>The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>
>>The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>
>I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.

My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
DoB and passport number.

That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.

It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
travellers.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>
>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>
>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>
>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>
>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>
>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>
> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
> DoB and passport number.
>
> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>
> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
> travellers.

I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints. The real test would
be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.

On 21/01/2023 14:22, Recliner wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>
>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>
>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>
>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>
>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>
> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport
> holders, so we might have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.

It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21/01/2023 14:22, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>
>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>
>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>
>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>
>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>
>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport
>> holders, so we might have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>
> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.

Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).

In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>
>Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>
>In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.

Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>
>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>
>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>
> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>
>

I’d hardly call 7 Euro every 3 years a revenue raising exercise. Compare to
£75 for a 10 year UK passport.

On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:

> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>
>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>
>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>
>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>> DoB and passport number.
>>
>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>
>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>> travellers.
>
> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints. The real test would
> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.

From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European
countries using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so
Irish passport holders are exempt. It looks like the EES countries are
all of Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the
Schengen zone). For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the
general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a
participant in the EES.

[1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2023-01-21 16:01:56 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th Jan.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>
>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>
>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>
>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>
>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>
>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>> travellers.
>>
>> I think they'd still need to collect the fingerprints. The real test would
>> be what an Irish passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>
> From [1], the EES does not apply to "Nationals of the European
> countries using the EES, as well as Croatia, Cyprus and Ireland", so
> Irish passport holders are exempt. It looks like the EES countries are
> all of Schengen plus Bulgaria and Romania (which are not yet in the
> Schengen zone). For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the
> general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a
> participant in the EES.
>
> [1] https://travel-europe.europa.eu/ees/faqs-ees_en
>

I don't think that answers the question of what the procedures will be for
Irish citizens at the Eurostar border when the new system comes in. I
assume they'll go through the same ePassport gates as Schengen and UK
citizens? Will their fingerprints be checked? Of course, they won't need
an ETIAS, and the 90 day rule won't apply to them.

And who will need to use the manned desks?

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

> For some reason the FAQ page specifies Croatia, bt the
> general information page on the same site lists Croatia as a
> participant in the EES.

Presumably the confusion is simply because the document was written just
before Croatia entered Schengen, which it did this month?

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>
>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>
>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>
> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.

EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries

US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
332m people in one country

Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?

On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>
>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>
>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>
>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>
> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>
> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
> 332m people in one country
>
> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?

Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.

So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.

Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
alas, just the way the world is going.

In message <tqhtn3$2q1ni$5@dont-email.me>, at 23:49:55 on Sat, 21 Jan
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>
>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>
>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>
>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>
>EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>and 70,

Are older and younger free of charge, or banned from the scheme?

>provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>
>US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>332m people in one country
>
>Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?

--
Roland Perry

In message <tqils8$30le3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:42:16 on Sun, 22 Jan
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>
>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>
>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>
>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>
>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>
>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>> 332m people in one country
>>
>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>
>Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>
>So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>
>Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>alas, just the way the world is going.

I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore the
war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only valid for
the duration of one short trip.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>17th Jan.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>
>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>
>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>
>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>> DoB and passport number.
>>
>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>
>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>> travellers.
>
>I think they'd still need

Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.

>to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.

If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
citizens like Brits.

But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
citizens" fast-lane.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>
>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>
>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>
>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>
>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>
>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>> travellers.
>>
>> I think they'd still need
>
> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>
>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>
> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
> citizens like Brits.
>
> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
> citizens" fast-lane.

Just to divert into other border delays. Yesterday I went for lunch in the
Pas de Calais, sailing Dover-Calais-Dover by car. Absolutely no delay going
out, French passports in Dover were efficient. Coming back French exit
passport stamping was very efficient, UK passports in Calais caused a 15
minute delay (the two sets of booths are curiously in completely different
parts of the site). UK Border Force don’t come out well compared to the
French, and our lot don’t even have the excuse of having to stamp
passports.

As a further digression, since I last went via Calais pre covid, the ferry
terminal has been completely remodelled and is somewhat confusing for
drivers. No sign of rubber boats during our crossings.

On 22 Jan 2023 at 10:05:23 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

> In message <tqils8$30le3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:42:16 on Sun, 22 Jan
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 22 Jan 2023 at 1:49:55 AM EET, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>>
>>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>>> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>>>
>>> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
>>> 332m people in one country
>>>
>>> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?
>>
>> Thank you for reminding me I need to complete my New Zealand "NZeTA" for a
>> trip over there in a few weeks; costs NZ$ 17 (plus a mandatory visitor tax of
>> NZ$ 35) for a total of NZ$ 52, valid for 2 years.
>>
>> So that's €30, for access to 5m people in 1 country.
>>
>> Quite possibly the worst value of such things I've ever experienced... But
>> alas, just the way the world is going.
>
> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore the
> war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only valid for
> the duration of one short trip.

It's not entirely clear to me what the relevance of visa pricing is to the
cost of travel authorisations for *visa free* travel, one thing being almost,
but not quite, entirely unlike the other; but rolling with it anyway - whether
or not a tourist visa for Russia will cost more than £50 very much depends on
your nationality. Russia has long applied a simple principle of reciprocity -
i.e. they charge you the same as whatever your country charges Russians for a
visa.

So given that at the moment NZ citizens pay nothing for their visa-free travel
to the EU, even on 'the Russian basis' that NZeTA is appalling value for
money. (And indeed will continue to be once the much cheaper ETIAS is
introduced.)

On 21/01/2023 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>
>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on 17th
>> Jan.
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>
> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....

It doesn't says it is a surprise.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 22/01/2023 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> I rather suspect getting a tourist visa for Russia (OK, let's ignore the
> war for a second) would cost more than £50, and they are only valid for
> the duration of one short trip.

While it is a long while since I went, business visas were being sold as
de facto multiple-entry tourist visas.

--
Arthur Figgis

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tqh29k$2li2i$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:01:56 on Sat, 21 Jan
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <95tnsh988a8d91cuu7fp7hke6b3kl8fqhu@4ax.com>, at 14:22:05 on
>>> Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:44:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <tqels6$260vk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:42 on Fri, 20 Jan
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/01/2023 17:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> As expected, the new system has been delayed till the autumn:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e4425ae-98d1-11ed-91ab-4070465550b
>>>>>>> a?shareToken=9665026f771578c64329c002f4e050f0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is old news, The Times asleep again? Even the Beeb had it on
>>>>>> 17th Jan.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64311737>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea why any of this is a surprise....
>>>>>
>>>>> The delay: most big government IT projects, most governments.
>>>>>
>>>>> The need in the first place: either something people who voted for
>>>>> Brexit forgot to take into account, or did they say "it was worth it,
>>>>> to get a black passport, annoy the DUP, create tens of thousands
>>>>> of jobs at freight forwarding companies".
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how much this is a consequence of Brexit. It's a new EU
>>>> scheme that applies to all non-Schengen passport holders, so we might
>>>> have been subject to a version of it as well, even without Brexit.
>>>
>>> My impression was that if still members of the EU Brits would have
>>> had a waiver for the border [data gathering] formalities if they
>>> had applied in advance online, giving minimal information such as name,
>>> DoB and passport number.
>>>
>>> That may have been facilitated by data-sharing agreements between the UK
>>> and the EU which are no longer possible now we are a Third Country.
>>>
>>> It would still have not been automatic entry, but the decision at the
>>> border would only require producing the non-expired passport, with the
>>> prediction that would suffice (without further delay) for 95% of
>>> travellers.
>>
>> I think they'd still need
>
> Do you mean "would have needed" in the hypothetical case of us still
> being in the EU? In which case, what evidence is available for that.
>
>> to collect the fingerprints. The real test would be what an Irish
>> passport holder needs to do at the Eurostar border.
>
> If you mean at the border in London, then as an EU citizen I would not
> expect them to be subjected to the same procedures as third-country
> citizens like Brits.
>
> But they might be delayed in a general queue if there isn't an "EU
> citizens" fast-lane.

It's not that simple. Not all EU countries are in the Schengen area, and
not all Schengen countries are in the EU.

There will soon be four categories of travellers entering the Schengen
area:

1. Schengen passport holders

2. EU citizens from non-Schengen countries (like the Irish)

3. ETIAS holders from visa-free countries (like us)

4. Those who need a visa.

I'm interested in what difference there will be, if any, in the procedures
for those in categories 2 and 3 once the new system comes into force.

On 21/01/2023 23:49, Recliner wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>
>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in another EU
>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>
>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd probably still
>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports checked by
>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I don't
>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we currently do,
>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>
>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them into one?
>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>
> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
> and 70, provides visa-free access to 420m people in 27 countries
>
> US ESTA: lasts two years, costs $21 for all, provides visa-free access to
> 332m people in one country
>
> Which looks more like a revenue-raising exercise?

I doubt whether either scheme does more than cover costs, if they manage
to do that.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/01/2023 08:03, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tqhtn3$2q1ni$5@dont-email.me>, at 23:49:55 on Sat, 21 Jan
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:01:44 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> It wouldn't have applied to us while a member as we then had the
>>>>> unrestricted right to travel and live in any EU country.
>>>>
>>>> Not quite (all EU citizens have the right to enter and live in
>>>> another EU
>>>> member state for up to three months, not indefinitely).
>>>>
>>>> In any case, the new system is about checking who enters and leaves the
>>>> Schengen zone, which would still have applied to us. So we'd
>>>> probably still
>>>> have the new fingerprinting requirement and have our passports
>>>> checked by
>>>> the machines, but wouldn't have needed to apply for the new ETIAS. I
>>>> don't
>>>> think we'd have needed to have our passports stamped, as we
>>>> currently do,
>>>> but won't when the new ETIAS comes in.
>>>
>>> Not sure why they need ETIAS and EES, couldn't they just roll them
>>> into one?
>>> Unless ETIAS is little more than a revenue raising exercise.
>>
>> EU ETIAS: lasts three years, costs €7, but only for travellers between 18
>> and 70,
>
> Are older and younger free of charge, or banned from the scheme?
>

Free, as 1 minutes googling showed

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.