In message <t16rmj$eo7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:21:23 on Sun, 20 Mar
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Back in my younger days, when I was an occasional gigging musician as
>>>> part of a band, I once played in front of a packed house at the BBC.
>>>> That is, Borehamwood Baptist Church.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The BBC in Shepherds Bush is the Bush Bedding Centre
>>
>> Relevant to this group was the Swiss based multinational Brown Boveri &Cie
>> who used the initials BBC on company logos at times, …
>
>Thus the relabelling of the BBC Micro in markets outside the UK.

And tangentially, markets outside the UK were unlikely to be capable of
receiving the BBC educational broadcasts for which the Acorn Model A/B
was one of the theatrical props.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>
>> Sticking with a Railway connection but on a small scale the present day
>> Hornby (which really derives from. Tri-ang) though it has been barely
>> profitable for some years did manage to acquire its
>> equivalents in France Jouef , Electrotren Spain, Rivarossi Italy , Lima
>> Italy , Arnold Germany.

>
> Hornby has it's design office in the UK still.
Yes they moved back into the original Tri-ang location at Margate after
one of the recent managements moved them away for a bit.
I don’t know if the respective continental names are still designed in
Italy etc but I don’t think
Margate has enough personnel to do it.

Till recently the former manufacturing floor of the building has just been
empty space but has now been utilised to store some full sized trains as a
Railway museum ,some of the exhibits will be well known to many readers of
this group.

<http://www.theonetoonecollection.co.uk>

GH

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>
>>> I once went on an educational cruise with British India, on the MV Dunera.
>>> My brother later went on the MV Uganda.
>>>
>>
>> SS Uganda not MV, even though P&O had ownership of BI for some time she
>> retained British India
>> Funnel colours to the end apart from the period she served as a Hospital
>> ship during the Falklands
>> conflict. Her compliment of schoolchildren passengers having a surprise
>> disembarkation at Naples
>> to facilitate the conversion.
>
> Thank you for the correction. As I say it was my brother who went on the
> Uganda; I have very, very vague memories of an engine room tour on the
> Dunera and it was impressed on us that she was not a steam ship.

About 51 years ago I went on a cruise on the SS Uganda, and that included a
tour of the engine room with its steam turbine engines.

--
Jeremy Double

On 20/03/2022 13:44, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Sticking with a Railway connection but on a small scale the present day
>>> Hornby (which really derives from. Tri-ang) though it has been barely
>>> profitable for some years did manage to acquire its
>>> equivalents in France Jouef , Electrotren Spain, Rivarossi Italy , Lima
>>> Italy , Arnold Germany.
>
>>
>> Hornby has it's design office in the UK still.
> Yes they moved back into the original Tri-ang location at Margate after
> one of the recent managements moved them away for a bit.
> I don’t know if the respective continental names are still designed in
> Italy etc but I don’t think
> Margate has enough personnel to do it.
>
> Till recently the former manufacturing floor of the building has just been
> empty space but has now been utilised to store some full sized trains as a
> Railway museum ,some of the exhibits will be well known to many readers of
> this group.
>
> <http://www.theonetoonecollection.co.uk>
>

Quite a nice assortment.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>>
>>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>>
>> It was P&O by then.
>
> Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O with
> Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the outside after
> changing owner to P&O. Ah,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the owner
> was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly the photo
> of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in big letters.
>
>> A couple of my colleagues were on that, fortunately they both survived.
>
> Christ. They had a lucky escape. We should indeed never forget Zeebrugge.

I once cycled from Edinburgh to Bruges and return by way of the late
lamented Rosyth-Zeebrugge ferry. On the way back we were delayed leaving.
The captain came on the PA and said it was because of problems with the bow
doors. That produced a whole host of different feelings.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t125sm$p4n$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:44:38 on Fri, 18 Mar
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>> How many parallel streams of traffic can board
>>>> different parts of a Eurotunnel train at the same time?
>>>
>>> Only 1 but its much quicker than ferry boarding as the cars don't have to
>>> be marshalled. You just drive on and carry on driving down the train until you
>>> meet a stopped car. No doubt plenty of videos on youtube.
>>
>> You don't drive down the whole length of the train, any more than foot
>> passengers at Kings Cross headed for Edinburgh all board at one door and
>> walk through every carriage.
>>
>> It's a long time since I've done it, but each Eurotunnel train is split
>> into at least half a dozen sections, boarding simultaneously.
>>
>
> No, just two sections. So you drive half the train.

So about 350 m then - nearly double the length of my street.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t12taf$7mm$5@dont-email.me...
>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 21:02:53 +0000, NY wrote:
>>>
>>>> "nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:t12g77$7mm$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Wikipedia suggests the full-height forming the front half and the
>>>>> double-
>>>>> deck the rear half. The high ones take coaches and caravans. Lorries
>>>>> have their own vehicles on different trains.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't know HGVs had to use their own dedicated trains, rather than
>>>> using the one for coaches and cars. I suppose they have to have very
>>>> long side doors to allow a very long vehicle (longer than a coach!) to
>>>> enter.
>>>
>>> Cars and coaches the passengers travel in their vehicles in closed
>>> carriages.
>>>
>>> Lorries go in partially open carriages and the drivers ride in a separate
>>> coach by the engine. In theory, in the event of an emergency, they can
>>> leave the cargo behind and drive the locos and lorry drivers out of each
>>> end.
>>
>> Ah, I wondered whether car/coach passengers also had to leave their vehicles
>> and go to a central "passenger lounge" area, as they have to on car ferries
>> nowadays.
>>
>
> It'd delay the service considerably, I think, and shorten the trains too
> (considering that the single-deck half of the train could conceivably carry
> 12 coaches each with 50 passengers, you'd need seating for 600). The double
> deck coaches can each hold 8 cars which could each hold 4-7 people, so
> that’s another 600….
>
>> One day I'm determined to go on either Eurostar or Le Shuttle and see what
>> everyone is talking about. The problem with going by car is the driving on
>> the other side. Driving an LHD car on the right would be mildly
>> disconcerting but I did in the US when I was 20 years younger and I'd
>> probably be OK as most things are a mirror image. Driving an RHD car on the
>> right would be terrifying because I would be on the wrong side of the car
>> and would be entirely reliant on my wife for "am I clear to overtake" as she
>> would be better placed to see oncoming cars and could angle her door mirror
>> to see cars coming from behind on a motorway, which requires less effort of
>> refocussing than for me having to look right across to a correctly-angled
>> passenger door mirror on the opposite side of the car, and then readjust to
>> looking straight ahead again afterwards. I can scan both the road ahead and
>> a driver's side door mirror with ease because your eyes don't have to move
>> as far. I'd only really contemplate driving on the right in an LHD car that
>> was correctly designed for driving on that side; maybe when I was younger
>> I'd have relished driving RHD on the right as a challenge.
>>
>>
>
> I didn't find it anywhere near as difficult as you're making out.
>
> Overtaking on motorways is fine, it's just the same actions as checking
> that the lane is clear before pulling back in after overtaking (or perhaps
> a more accurate equivalent, pulling left into a lane at a complicated
> junction where a lane joins and then leaves again).
>
> Overtaking on single-carriageway roads is more difficult, and having a
> trustworthy passenger to assist is very helpful. Otherwise, hang well back
> to get get a better view. Or put up with following the slow thing.
>
> The biggest problem for me, especially initially, was aiming for the
> correct side of the road when pulling out of t-junctions, in the absence of
> other traffic around to remind me!
>
> Similarly I twice set off on the wrong side of the road in quiet villages
> with no other vehicles around to offer the hint.
>
> Oh and then for a few weeks after returning home I had to constantly
> reassure myself that I was now on the correct side of the road!

All of that!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20 Mar 2022 18:21:01 GMT, Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long passed
>>>>> from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> I once went on an educational cruise with British India, on the MV Dunera.
>>>> My brother later went on the MV Uganda.
>>>>
>>>
>>> SS Uganda not MV, even though P&O had ownership of BI for some time she
>>> retained British India
>>> Funnel colours to the end apart from the period she served as a Hospital
>>> ship during the Falklands
>>> conflict. Her compliment of schoolchildren passengers having a surprise
>>> disembarkation at Naples
>>> to facilitate the conversion.
>>
>> Thank you for the correction. As I say it was my brother who went on the
>> Uganda; I have very, very vague memories of an engine room tour on the
>> Dunera and it was impressed on us that she was not a steam ship.
>
>About 51 years ago I went on a cruise on the SS Uganda, and that included a
>tour of the engine room with its steam turbine engines.

My dad said when he was a boy, on the Arran ferry the men would all go
to look at the engine room. My dad could not understand the
fascination amongst grown men until he realised the bar was next to
the engine room :-)

On 18/03/2022 13:50, NY wrote:
> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:HXZUD0tDjINiFALh@perry.uk...
>> In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are
>>> any routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and have
>>> a long ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end of the
>>> country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the European
>>> port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that this European
>>> port was actually well placed for the onward car journey and was not
>>> *more* out of the way than Sangatte.
>>
>> If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
>> probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a
>> ferry from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent,
>> Eurotunnel, then another almost 400km by road.
>>
>> Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.
>>
>> Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more
>> extreme example of the same thing.
>
> It's a shame that a lot of the North Sea ferries from Hull and Newcastle
> (eg DFDS) no longer operate so you have to drive down south to get a
> ferry.

It's also a shame that the Nörrona no longer calls at Scrabster.

On 21/03/2022 11:39, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 13:50, NY wrote:
>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:HXZUD0tDjINiFALh@perry.uk...
>>> In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are
>>>> any routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and
>>>> have a long ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end
>>>> of the country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the
>>>> European port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that this
>>>> European port was actually well placed for the onward car journey
>>>> and was not *more* out of the way than Sangatte.
>>>
>>> If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
>>> probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a
>>> ferry from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent,
>>> Eurotunnel, then another almost 400km by road.
>>>
>>> Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.
>>>
>>> Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more
>>> extreme example of the same thing.
>>
>> It's a shame that a lot of the North Sea ferries from Hull and
>> Newcastle (eg DFDS) no longer operate so you have to drive down south
>> to get a ferry.
>
> It's also a shame that the Nörrona no longer calls at Scrabster.

Or Lerwick!

--
Colin

On 21/03/2022 14:09, ColinR wrote:
> On 21/03/2022 11:39, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 13:50, NY wrote:
>>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:HXZUD0tDjINiFALh@perry.uk...
>>>> In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>>>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are
>>>>> any routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and
>>>>> have a long ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end
>>>>> of the country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the
>>>>> European port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that
>>>>> this European port was actually well placed for the onward car
>>>>> journey and was not *more* out of the way than Sangatte.
>>>>
>>>> If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
>>>> probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a
>>>> ferry from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent,
>>>> Eurotunnel, then another almost 400km by road.
>>>>
>>>> Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.
>>>>
>>>> Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more
>>>> extreme example of the same thing.
>>>
>>> It's a shame that a lot of the North Sea ferries from Hull and
>>> Newcastle (eg DFDS) no longer operate so you have to drive down south
>>> to get a ferry.
>>
>> It's also a shame that the Nörrona no longer calls at Scrabster.
>
> Or Lerwick!
>

Even though it frequently passes through the Sullom Voe Port Authority
limits (between Mainland and Yell)

--
Colin

In message <t14jeg$5fm$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:16 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t149gu$3uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:58:54 on Sat, 19 Mar
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 19/03/2022 09:29, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t13t4g$8f5$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:27:28 on Sat, 19 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <j9ivrhFrotlU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:57:21 on Fri, 18
>>>>>> Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obvious brand to move them under if the P and O brand needs distancing
>>>>>>> from would be Princess which has long been associated with P&O cruises
>>>>>>> , ship transfers between the two brands have taken place on several
>>>>>>> occasions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH the P&O name has a very loyal regular clientele in the UK
>>>>>>>with the Britishness of its ships for British customers being
>>>>>>>one of their selling points that could be difficult to replace.
>>>>>>>Other names from the days of yore such as British India have long
>>>>>>>passed from collective memory and were never as well known in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There may be some scope for a fudge like the ECML for a time being
>>>>>> branded "Route of the Flying Scotsman" to attempt get some reflected
>>>>>> glory. Nothing to do with A1Steamtours, and their Flying Scotsman
>>>>>> branded events, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do the A1 Steam people use the Flying Scotsman branding for their
>>>>> activities? I've not noticed any such usage.
>>>>
>>>> This week there's been quite a bit of chatter about 'the first Flying
>>>> Scotsman in Kent' which appears to qualify. Or was that a different
>>>> tour operator.
>>>
>>> Yes,of course it was. Why would you think otherwise?
>>
>> Only the lack of transparency about who operates what.
>>
>> OK, so which other than A1Tours was using the Flying Scotsman trade name
>> to promote its tour to Kent?
>
>The recent FS tour to Kent was operated by Steam Dreams.

But it was a FS tour not a 60103 tour. So whoever is running it, they
are trading on its famous name.

>"A1 Tours" doesn't produce any Google hits for steam trains;

This is probably what I was thinking of:

<https://www.a1steam.com/tornadoandflyingscotsman/>
--
Roland Perry

In message <t14nbu$56m$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:55:10 on Sat, 19 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>I struggle to imagine why Roland assumed that The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust
>would promote tours hauled by an A3.

See the link I posted for Anna.

Appears to be some A1 Trust tours with parts of the trip hauled by
Tornado, FS, and an unspecified electric loco.

Hopefully, your struggle is at an end.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <cwE*oqzJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:50:50 on Sat,
> 19 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
>>> precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.
>>
>> I heard that story with respect to bbc.co.uk - it was originally the Swiss,
>> later handed over to the Beeb.
>
> A .co.uk would have different rules to a .com, indeed that's almost the
> only rationale for having the different name-space.

For many the rationale seemed to be to grab a name in as many different
domains as possible to prevent anyone else using your brand, irrespective
of trademark and business relevance. Rules were there to be subverted.

>> Although BB&C and ASEA merged to become ABB in 1988 - would BB&C have
>> registered a domain before 1988?
>
> In which name space?
>
>> (ABB buying BREL in 1989, of course)
>

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t14nbu$56m$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:55:10 on Sat, 19 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> I struggle to imagine why Roland assumed that The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust
>> would promote tours hauled by an A3.
>
> See the link I posted for Anna.
>
> Appears to be some A1 Trust tours with parts of the trip hauled by
> Tornado, FS, and an unspecified electric loco.
>
> Hopefully, your struggle is at an end.

Interesting, I'd not come across those combined A1/A3 tours.

The electric could be a humdrum DBC class 90, or for more interest, Peter
Pan.

In message <t1ab96$3g7$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:42 on Mon, 21 Mar
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <cwE*oqzJy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 21:50:50 on Sat,
>> 19 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> At the beginning of the Internet Age here was some rivalry about who had
>>>> precedence for bbc.com, and most people favoured the Swiss.
>>>
>>> I heard that story with respect to bbc.co.uk - it was originally the Swiss,
>>> later handed over to the Beeb.
>>
>> A .co.uk would have different rules to a .com, indeed that's almost the
>> only rationale for having the different name-space.
>
>For many the rationale seemed to be to grab a name in as many different
>domains as possible to prevent anyone else using your brand, irrespective
>of trademark and business relevance. Rules were there to be subverted.

Apart from the fact that brands are the very lifeblood of trademarks,
and squatting domains to ransom them to the trademark holders was a
classic domainer's business plan, there's little wonder that many such
trademark holders made defensive registrations where-ever they could.

Which in turn fuelled the pyramid selling scam which was setting up new
tlds just to attract defensive registrations.

--
Roland Perry

On 18 Mar 2022 at 10:27:09 GMT, "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com"
<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>>> P&O trade.
>>
>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>> and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>> few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>> honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>> even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>
> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
> calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
> never understood.

A late response! On the DFDS route from Dover to Dunkerque (the one I mostly
use to get to Belgium or Germany) the ships load stern first at Dover and
unload through the bow at Dunkerque. For the return journey they load through
the bow and unload through the stern on arrival at Dover. This means the ship
has to reverse at both Dunkerque and Dover and thus takes longer than the
straight across Dover-Dunkerque journey.

I suspect the Calais route works similarly.

And in nearly fifty years of travelling on these short sea routes the only
time a crossing was cancelled was when the sea state was too bad for the
Hovercraft...
--
Robert

Robert <coppercapped@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 18 Mar 2022 at 10:27:09 GMT, "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com"
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
>> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>>>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>>>> P&O trade.
>>>
>>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>>> and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>>> few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>>> honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>>> even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>>
>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>> calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>> never understood.
>
> A late response! On the DFDS route from Dover to Dunkerque (the one I mostly
> use to get to Belgium or Germany) the ships load stern first at Dover and
> unload through the bow at Dunkerque. For the return journey they load through
> the bow and unload through the stern on arrival at Dover. This means the ship
> has to reverse at both Dunkerque and Dover and thus takes longer than the
> straight across Dover-Dunkerque journey.
>
> I suspect the Calais route works similarly.
>
> And in nearly fifty years of travelling on these short sea routes the only
> time a crossing was cancelled was when the sea state was too bad for the
> Hovercraft...

The Arran ferry docks bow first at Ardrossan and stern first at Brodick.
At Ardrossan that doesn’t make much difference because the berth is roughly
south facing so it has to do a 90 degree turn in each direction, but at
Brodick it does nearly a 270 degree turn to come alongside the landward
side of the north facing jetty. That takes slightly longer but it’s not
reflected in the timetables which show 55 minutes in each direction.

Sam

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On 23/03/2022 11:38, Robert wrote:
> On 18 Mar 2022 at 10:27:09 GMT, "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com"
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
>> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>>>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>>>> P&O trade.
>>>
>>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>>> and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>>> few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>>> honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>>> even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>>
>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>> calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>> never understood.
>
> A late response! On the DFDS route from Dover to Dunkerque (the one I mostly
> use to get to Belgium or Germany) the ships load stern first at Dover and
> unload through the bow at Dunkerque. For the return journey they load through
> the bow and unload through the stern on arrival at Dover. This means the ship
> has to reverse at both Dunkerque and Dover and thus takes longer than the
> straight across Dover-Dunkerque journey.
>
> I suspect the Calais route works similarly.
>
> And in nearly fifty years of travelling on these short sea routes the only
> time a crossing was cancelled was when the sea state was too bad for the
> Hovercraft...

Short sea routes can by cancelled by weather, but it is rare!

As to "reversing", most sea-going vessels are designed with a bow to
smooth the flow through waves, especially in heavy weather. So the vast
majority of sea-going ferries do turn either on arrival in a port or on
departure - true of all Dover ferries (Calais and Dunkerque, Boulogne
and Zeebrugge in the past).

The largest double-ended ferries which can operate in both directions
without any need to turn are customarily those operating in sheltered
waters such as Red Funnel (Isle of Wight) or inter-island ferries in
Shetland. The largest double ended ferries I am aware of are those
operated by BC Ferries out of Vancouver, but in the protected waters
sheltered by Vancouver Island.
https://19jirr16m298e0p71wq8ut15-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/23474293_web1_201021-VNE-FerriesStandalones-Ferries_2.jpg

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/03/2022 11:38, Robert wrote:
>> On 18 Mar 2022 at 10:27:09 GMT, "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com"
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
>>> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>>>>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>>>>> P&O trade.
>>>>
>>>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>>>> and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>>>> few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>>>> honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>>>> even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>>>
>>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
>>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>>> calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>>> never understood.
>>
>> A late response! On the DFDS route from Dover to Dunkerque (the one I mostly
>> use to get to Belgium or Germany) the ships load stern first at Dover and
>> unload through the bow at Dunkerque. For the return journey they load through
>> the bow and unload through the stern on arrival at Dover. This means the ship
>> has to reverse at both Dunkerque and Dover and thus takes longer than the
>> straight across Dover-Dunkerque journey.
>>
>> I suspect the Calais route works similarly.
>>
>> And in nearly fifty years of travelling on these short sea routes the only
>> time a crossing was cancelled was when the sea state was too bad for the
>> Hovercraft...
>
> Short sea routes can by cancelled by weather, but it is rare!

I should have mentioned that the Ardrossan-Brodick ferry is cancelled
fairly often, not because of the sea state but because of difficulties
berthing in Ardrossan in strong westerley winds, and because the
alternative ports are not in a fit state.

> As to "reversing", most sea-going vessels are designed with a bow to
> smooth the flow through waves, especially in heavy weather. So the vast
> majority of sea-going ferries do turn either on arrival in a port or on
> departure - true of all Dover ferries (Calais and Dunkerque, Boulogne
> and Zeebrugge in the past).
>
> The largest double-ended ferries which can operate in both directions
> without any need to turn are customarily those operating in sheltered
> waters such as Red Funnel (Isle of Wight) or inter-island ferries in
> Shetland. The largest double ended ferries I am aware of are those
> operated by BC Ferries out of Vancouver, but in the protected waters
> sheltered by Vancouver Island.
> https://19jirr16m298e0p71wq8ut15-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/23474293_web1_201021-VNE-FerriesStandalones-Ferries_2.jpg

Many of the smaller CalMac ferries are double ended, often basket-handled
vessels.

Sam

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Spit the dummy to reply

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:53:46 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 23/03/2022 11:38, Robert wrote:
>>> On 18 Mar 2022 at 10:27:09 GMT, "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com"
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
>>>> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>
>>>>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>>>>>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>>>>>> P&O trade.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>>>>> and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>>>>> few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>>>>> honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>>>>> even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>>>>
>>>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>>>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>>>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
>>>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>>>> calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>>>> never understood.
>>>
>>> A late response! On the DFDS route from Dover to Dunkerque (the one I mostly
>>> use to get to Belgium or Germany) the ships load stern first at Dover and
>>> unload through the bow at Dunkerque. For the return journey they load through
>>> the bow and unload through the stern on arrival at Dover. This means the ship
>>> has to reverse at both Dunkerque and Dover and thus takes longer than the
>>> straight across Dover-Dunkerque journey.
>>>
>>> I suspect the Calais route works similarly.
>>>
>>> And in nearly fifty years of travelling on these short sea routes the only
>>> time a crossing was cancelled was when the sea state was too bad for the
>>> Hovercraft...
>>
>> Short sea routes can by cancelled by weather, but it is rare!
>
>I should have mentioned that the Ardrossan-Brodick ferry is cancelled
>fairly often, not because of the sea state but because of difficulties
>berthing in Ardrossan in strong westerley winds, and because the
>alternative ports are not in a fit state.
>
Were there fewer cancellations when Fairlie was used as a back-up?

In message <t1f0qs$pdm$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:38:04 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, Robert <coppercapped@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 18 Mar 2022 at 10:27:09 GMT, "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com"
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 10:15:06 -0000
>> "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> What I expect to see very soon is rival ferry companies, eg DFDS, Stena,
>>>> Irish Ferries, bringing ships from other routes to Dover to cream off the
>>>> P&O trade.
>>>
>>> Those that already operate services between various mainland-Europe cities
>>> and the UK will certainly be seeing a lot of extra business over the next
>>> few days until P&O Ferries (or "DP Ferries", which would be a lot more
>>> honest) get their act together, and some of that business may well continue
>>> even after P&O Ferries are back in service.
>>
>> Quite why the cross channel ferries are still popular with car drivers is
>> a mystery to me. Aside from being delayed or cancelled by the weather they
>> take bloody ages. Meanwhile on eurotunnel you turn up and often in not much
>> more than an hour (depening on how busy they are) you're on the A16 out of
>> calais. Always seems to be somewhat slower on the way back though which I've
>> never understood.
>
>A late response! On the DFDS route from Dover to Dunkerque (the one I mostly
>use to get to Belgium or Germany) the ships load stern first at Dover and
>unload through the bow at Dunkerque. For the return journey they load through
>the bow and unload through the stern on arrival at Dover. This means the ship
>has to reverse at both Dunkerque and Dover and thus takes longer than the
>straight across Dover-Dunkerque journey.
>
>I suspect the Calais route works similarly.
>
>And in nearly fifty years of travelling on these short sea routes the only
>time a crossing was cancelled was when the sea state was too bad for the
>Hovercraft...

You never got caught up in any French fishermen blockading the port for
disjoint reasons of their own?
--
Roland Perry

On 20/03/2022 23:19, Sam Wilson wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>>>
>>>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>>>
>>> It was P&O by then.
>>
>> Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O with
>> Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the outside after
>> changing owner to P&O. Ah,
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the owner
>> was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly the photo
>> of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in big letters.
>>
>>> A couple of my colleagues were on that, fortunately they both survived.
>>
>> Christ. They had a lucky escape. We should indeed never forget Zeebrugge.
>
> I once cycled from Edinburgh to Bruges and return by way of the late
> lamented Rosyth-Zeebrugge ferry. On the way back we were delayed leaving.
> The captain came on the PA and said it was because of problems with the bow
> doors. That produced a whole host of different feelings.
>
> Sam
>

Was that after the MS Estonia tragedy?

On 21/03/2022 14:09, ColinR wrote:
> On 21/03/2022 11:39, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 13:50, NY wrote:
>>> "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:HXZUD0tDjINiFALh@perry.uk...
>>>> In message <t11odc$p0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:54:23 on Fri, 18 Mar
>>>> 2022, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there a significant difference in price between car ferries and
>>>>> Eurotunnel which gives ferries an advantage? I wonder if there are
>>>>> any routes where it is quicker to drive to the UK ferry port and
>>>>> have a long ferry journey, compared with driving from the other end
>>>>> of the country to Ashford to get Eurotunnel, and then drive to the
>>>>> European port that the ferry would have gone to - assuming that
>>>>> this European port was actually well placed for the onward car
>>>>> journey and was not *more* out of the way than Sangatte.
>>>>
>>>> If you are starting in Mid Essex and are heading for Amsterdam, it's
>>>> probably just as quick, and a great deal more convenient, to take a
>>>> ferry from Harwich to Hook of Holland, than try driving to Kent,
>>>> Eurotunnel, then another almost 400km by road.
>>>>
>>>> Doubly so, if you can schedule the travel overnight.
>>>>
>>>> Ferries from Hull, which I've seen mentioned, are likely a more
>>>> extreme example of the same thing.
>>>
>>> It's a shame that a lot of the North Sea ferries from Hull and
>>> Newcastle (eg DFDS) no longer operate so you have to drive down south
>>> to get a ferry.
>>
>> It's also a shame that the Nörrona no longer calls at Scrabster.
>
> Or Lerwick!
>

What was the reason for ending that ship's port of calls in the UK?

Does the Nörrona at least on occasion pop into a UK port, they way it
does at Bergen?

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/03/2022 23:19, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:t12pt2$2j0$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 18/03/2022 10:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t11kg4$cjr$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:48 on Fri, 18 Mar 2022,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Townsend Thoreson?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of roll-on, roll-off, roll-over fame. A disaster we should never forget.
>>>>
>>>> It was P&O by then.
>>>
>>> Funny, like Roland I also associate Townsend Thoreson rather than P&O with
>>> Zeebrugge. I wonder if the Herald still had TT branding on the outside after
>>> changing owner to P&O. Ah,
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise says the owner
>>> was TT - I wonder if that article is actually correct? Certainly the photo
>>> of the capsized Herald had Townsend Thoreson on the side in big letters.
>>>
>>>> A couple of my colleagues were on that, fortunately they both survived.
>>>
>>> Christ. They had a lucky escape. We should indeed never forget Zeebrugge.
>>
>> I once cycled from Edinburgh to Bruges and return by way of the late
>> lamented Rosyth-Zeebrugge ferry. On the way back we were delayed leaving.
>> The captain came on the PA and said it was because of problems with the bow
>> doors. That produced a whole host of different feelings.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Was that after the MS Estonia tragedy?

It was, but it was the Herald of Free Enterprise that was more in mind.

Sam

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