On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong, has a long
>>battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big, bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>>paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen

Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you over the
head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.

>>fingerprint scanner, which is really convenient. It even has stereo
>>speakers.

How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
quality.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tsvqj4$p3ob$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:55:00 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>> On 20 Feb 2023 at 9:31:03 AM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android 9
>>>>> (wherein
>>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they did
>>>>> in v9
>>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years.
>>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>>> to drop
>>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>
>> I've already gone to the trouble of posting a video of how Roland's phone with
>> Android 6 would "just work" as well, he just refuses to actually learn how to
>> use it. I'm not sure even Apple have cracked the problem of making something
>> 'just work' when the user wilfully refuses to actually try.
>>
>> It should also be noted that Apple stuff also ceases to 'just work' after a
>> while of ignoring (or no longer available) software updates - I have an old
>> iPad that is testament to that, being good for not much more than a
>> paperweight these days. The question of how Roland has managed to get someone
>> to sell him in 2021 a supposedly new device with an operating system that was
>> discontinued in 2016 is very much at the heart of this mystery...
>
> The phone itself was released in 2017, and as a flagship of its time
> there's nothing in the hardware (other than 5G) which inclines me to buy
> a more recent design.

A flagship 2017 phone would probably have come with Android 8, and been
eligible for at least one upgrade, probably two or three. So it should be
running at least Android 9 now.

> It's in fact the third example of the same (modulo
> perhaps gigabytes) model I've had, the previous two having physically
> broken in some way or another. So to some extent they are simply
> self-provisioned swapout-repairs.

That proven fragility would put me off buying another one!

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong, has a long
>>> battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big, bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>> and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>>> paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>
> Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you over the
> head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.

Neil, you need to understand how threads work! Then you might understand
who you're replying to.

>
>>> fingerprint scanner, which is really convenient. It even has stereo
>>> speakers.
>
> How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
> quality.

Either side of the wide screen, so around 160mm apart.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:23:39 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>> My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong, has a long
>>>> battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big, bright, sharp OLED screen,
>
>>>> and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>>>> paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>>
>> Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you over the
>> head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.
>
>Neil, you need to understand how threads work! Then you might understand
>who you're replying to.

Oh well, you and roland are 2 sides of the same coin.

>>
>> How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
>> quality.
>
>Either side of the wide screen, so around 160mm apart.

So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:23:39 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>>> My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong, has a long
>>>>> battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big, bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>
>>>>> and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>>>>> paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>>>
>>> Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you over the
>>> head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.
>>
>> Neil, you need to understand how threads work! Then you might understand
>> who you're replying to.
>
> Oh well, you and roland are 2 sides of the same coin.

You seem not to have noticed that Roland prides himself on using ancient,
long obsolete phones. He won't be getting a phone with that sort of spec
for another five years.

>
>>>
>>> How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
>>> quality.
>>
>> Either side of the wide screen, so around 160mm apart.
>
> So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.

It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:43:45 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.
>
>It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.

Thing about phone stereo speakers is, they're pretty weak and feeble no matter
what the brand so you're almost always better off with headphones/buds anyway.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:43:45 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.
>>
>> It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.
>
> Thing about phone stereo speakers is, they're pretty weak and feeble no matter
> what the brand so you're almost always better off with headphones/buds anyway.

True

In message <tvckpe$6207$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:08:14 on Tue, 21 Mar
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb

>>>My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong, has a long
>>>battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big, bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>>and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>>>paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>
>Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you over the
>head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.

Yu are relying to the wrong person <duh!> but mine doesn't have face
recognition. Which I regarded as a "Good thing" [tm].

>>>fingerprint scanner, which is really convenient. It even has stereo
>>>speakers.
>
>How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
>quality.

No idea. Try asking the right person.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tvcms1$6dt7$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:23:39 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb

>>>>>> My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong,
>>>>>>has a long battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big,
>>>>>>bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>>
>>>>>> and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>>>>>> paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>>>>
>>>> Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you
>>>>over the head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.
>>>
>>> Neil, you need to understand how threads work! Then you might understand
>>> who you're replying to.
>>
>> Oh well, you and roland are 2 sides of the same coin.
>
>You seem not to have noticed that Roland prides himself on using ancient,
>long obsolete phones.

I don't want to encourage the marketing people's concept of
obsolescence. I prefer to take an engineering view.

>>>> How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
>>>> quality.
>>>
>>> Either side of the wide screen, so around 160mm apart.
>>
>> So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.
>
>It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.

The only sound system I've ever heard which sounded "real" was the
product-placement Quad in the Science Museum. I went out and bought
the same stuff. Excellent (even if my wife complained that electrostatic
speakers looked like oil-filled radiators).
--
Roland Perry

On 21.03.23 19:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tvcms1$6dt7$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:23:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
>
>>>>>>> My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong,
>>>>>>> has a long  battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big,
>>>>>>> bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>>>
>>>>>>> and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone
>>>>>>> banking and
>>>>>>> paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack you
>>>>> over the  head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.
>>>>
>>>> Neil, you need to understand how threads work!  Then you might
>>>> understand
>>>> who you're replying to.
>>>
>>> Oh well, you and roland are 2 sides of the same coin.
>>
>> You seem not to have noticed that Roland prides himself on using ancient,
>> long obsolete phones.
>
> I don't want to encourage the marketing people's concept of
> obsolescence. I prefer to take an engineering view.

From a technical point of view, software that is used for purposes such
as online payment, that has unpatched security vulnerabilities 3+ years
old is not safe to use. From an engineering point of view, it broken. It
would be like a car that has had a recall to fix a known fault with the
breaks, and simply continuing to drive it regardless, because they
brakes haven't failed on you yet.

>>>>> How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
>>>>> quality.
>>>>
>>>> Either side of the wide screen, so around 160mm apart.
>>>
>>> So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.
>>
>> It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.
>
> The only sound system I've ever heard which sounded "real" was the
> product-placement Quad in the Science Museum. I went out and bought
> the same stuff. Excellent (even if my wife complained that electrostatic
> speakers looked like oil-filled radiators).

Engineering is about finding the right solution to a specific problem.
If the design brief is to make something for audio reproduction that is
pocket-portable, requiring of limited power requirements, and be
acceptable to be used in environments with limited acoustics (due to
extraneous noise or use in accoustically sub optimal settings), speakers
with a huge dynamic range and frequency bandwitdth that require
installation in an acoustically suitable room, and are the size of a
radiator are a garbage solution to that problem. The purpose of
watching/listening to things on a phone is not perfect reproduction, it
is acceptable reproduction in a format that is low power and highly
portable. For things like having a video call with a family member, or
watching a youtube video explaining the best way to cook a particular
dish for dinner, it is entirely adequate. Engineering is about
understanding the requirement and finding a solution that meets the
need. It is not about solving some entirely different problem.

Robin

In message <tvcst5$7c44$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 21.03.23 19:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tvcms1$6dt7$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 16:23:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:13:50 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>
>>>>>>>> My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong,
>>>>>>>>has a long  battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big,
>>>>>>>>bright, sharp OLED screen,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone
>>>>>>>>banking and paying for things. It has both facial recognition
>>>>>>>>and an in-screen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good to know you're making life easy for muggers Roland. Whack
>>>>>>you over the  head, stick the phone in front of your face, job done.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neil, you need to understand how threads work!  Then you might
>>>>>understand who you're replying to.
>>>>
>>>> Oh well, you and roland are 2 sides of the same coin.
>>>
>>> You seem not to have noticed that Roland prides himself on using ancient,
>>> long obsolete phones.

>> I don't want to encourage the marketing people's concept of
>>obsolescence. I prefer to take an engineering view.
>
>From a technical point of view, software that is used for purposes such
>as online payment, that has unpatched security vulnerabilities 3+ years
>old is not safe to use. From an engineering point of view, it broken.

I'd welcome some insight into why an unpatched Android 7 makes payment
to a train company, via their very latest app, for a rail ticket,
vulerable to bad actors. That's about the only payment I'm likely to
make using a phone. Sorry, hang on, I might use the phone to exchange
SMS with a company levying parking charges. Is that vulnerable to the
revision of OS?

Real obsolescence is what I saw yesterday when buying a Pay-and-Display
ticket from a machine (using a real credit card), because aiui they use
2G [GPRS rather than SMS presumably] for the transmissions back to base,
and when 2G is turned off (the date's a bit flexible at the moment) we
are told that the car park operators aren't going to replace all those
machines with 4G versions, but insist everyone uses their clumsy
pay-by-phone option instead.

I can just about operate one of those machines in the dark and rain, but
reading the Pay-by-phone instructions and downloading and flying an app
on a phone is completely different ball-game.

Anyway, I said I'd write more about Bristol Parkway, from when I was
there last week. The ticket machine was in the claustrophobic
multi-storey car park, in almost complete darkness (despite being only
4pm). I couldn't pay-by-phone even if I wanted to, because there were
"no bars".

And talking of manuals/instructions, the last time I used a parking app
the signage said the unit of purchase was days, so I bought five. 24hrs
later I got pinged with a notification that the five *hours* they
claimed I had bought (rounded up to a day because it was a long-stay)
had expired, and did I went to 'top-up'. By then I was 1,000 miles away,
and as is often the case, somewhere with minimal cellphone coverage.

When I got back, I had on my to-do list to contact the operator and ask
them if, at the very least, they'd put a ready reckoner on the side of
the meter, to convert things like five days into hours, which would also
have the effect of nudging people away from falling into the same trap.
It might even make the parking company think "Hey, maybe I need to
rewrite the original signage, as there's a contradiction here".

>It would be like a car that has had a recall to fix a known fault with
>the breaks, and simply continuing to drive it regardless, because they
>brakes haven't failed on you yet.

Talking of broken things. That's a broken analogy.

>>>>>> How far apart are the speakers, an inch or 2? I bet thats concert hall
>>>>>> quality.
>>>>>
>>>>> Either side of the wide screen, so around 160mm apart.
>>>>
>>>> So the full stereo effect from maybe a foot away. If you're lucky.
>>>
>>> It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.

>> The only sound system I've ever heard which sounded "real" was the
>>product-placement Quad in the Science Museum. I went out and bought
>> the same stuff. Excellent (even if my wife complained that
>>electrostatic speakers looked like oil-filled radiators).
>
>Engineering is about finding the right solution to a specific problem.
>If the design brief is to make something for audio reproduction that is
>pocket-portable, requiring of limited power requirements, and be
>acceptable to be used in environments with limited acoustics (due to
>extraneous noise or use in accoustically sub optimal settings),
>speakers with a huge dynamic range and frequency bandwitdth that
>require installation in an acoustically suitable room, and are the size
>of a radiator are a garbage solution to that problem.

A good engineer listens to the requirement, and delivers a suitable
product. I agree that different scenarios require different solutions,
although in the world of Smartphones we are increasingly badgered to
subscribe to a "one size fits all" solution.

ps. Quad electrostatic work perfectly well in a typical living room,
it's one of the reasons they are good.

>The purpose of watching/listening to things on a phone is not perfect
>reproduction, it is acceptable reproduction in a format that is low
>power and highly portable.

But you must admit, it doesn't meet the brief of "sounding real". So
let's stick to that brief, shall we?

>For things like having a video call with a family member, or watching a
>youtube video explaining the best way to cook a particular dish for
>dinner, it is entirely adequate.

I don't think "sounding real" is a particular requirement for such a
scenario. Nor would I feel especially threatened if some hacker could
eavesdrop me watching that video (but why would he want to?)

>Engineering is about understanding the requirement and finding a
>solution that meets the need. It is not about solving some entirely
>different problem.

And yet, here you are, inventing entirely different problems to solve ;)
--
Roland Perry

In message <tvcjc0$5q7r$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:00 on Tue, 21 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tv9fkn$3gmsh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:59 on Mon, 20 Mar
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry"
>>>>>>>><roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I
>>>>>>>>>>>know how to use the phones, but I can't access a facility
>>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>
>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>> Android 7. …
>>>
>>> [splutter] Then you should rid yourself of it ASAP. Getting any kind of up
>>> to date support for it will be impossible
>>
>> Getting any kind of support is usually impossible. Period.
>
>So the manufacturer pushing out patched OS versions isn’t support? <shrug>

Depends what they are patching. If it's some hypothetical [impossible
even] patch to allow my 4G phone to receive 5G calls, then that would
address one aspect of the built-in obsolescence. But rather than discuss
hypotheticals, can you point me at the list of security holes fixed by a
typical Android OS update?

App updates - where they offer them, which isn't always - tend to fix
major bugs or add (and even subtract!) significant features.

>>> and any security holes revealed in the last 4-5 years will remain
>>> unpatched.
>>
>> Patching "security holes" doesn't stop people buying what turns out to
>> be a counterfeit item on eBay.
>
>But it would stop your ebanking app being compromised, or whatever the
>exploit du jour is.

A real example please. Especially where an OS patch has fixed an exploit
in a banking *app*.

[I don't use mainstream banking apps, as it happens; I tried one, but
prefer not to do my transactions through a porthole. But I digress].

>>> Do us all a favour and forget it.
>>>
>>>> … The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>>
>>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>>> screen in front of you.
>>>>
>>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security …
>>>
>>> Security, on an insecure platform. Right.
>>
>> Different kind of security. One is property, the other is, well, I'd
>> welcome any suggestions... the video link to my phone is end-to-end
>> encrypted, and I expect anyone attacking that to snoop on the stream
>> (why?) isn't going to have any better luck because of a slightly old OS.
>
>But they’re more likely to be able to compromise the phone and, say,
>extract whatever credentials you have to access the camera. Security is
>often a chain of links.

In message <laui1it64vom314amv8tde0hs1at5rj7fv@4ax.com>, at 09:35:02 on
Tue, 21 Mar 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:34:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
><recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Oh yes, I assumed there were technical reasons as well. Also market
>>reasons. For example, iOS includes a reasonably good, service-independent
>>email client, but Android doesn't. So there's a market for email clients on
>>Android, but not on iOS.
>
>What do you have against the Android Gmail client? On my phone it
>supports 2 Gmail and about half a dozen POP3 and IMAP accounts from
>various providers and seems to work without difficulty. It isn't
>perfect (they've never fixed the bug that stops searches working for
>POP3 accounts) but it certainly supports different services, including
>those from MS, although I install Outlook alongside Gmail for those.

I also expect there are corporates who prefer to impose Outlook on their
staff, whatever the platform, rather than use 3rd party email apps (even
from Apple).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tv9gsc$3gonr$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:08 on Mon, 20 Mar
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 20/03/2023 10:26, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I
>>>>>>>>>>know how to use the phones, but I can't access a facility
>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>
>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>
>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>
>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>> screen in front of you.
>>>
>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>>
>>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>>> consistent/stable?
>>>
>> Yes. AppStore guidelines. Though could be more strict in my view.
>>
>They're already so strict that some apps cannot be ported from Android.

That sounds like structural issues to do with the app's backoffice, or
even the financial stability and probity of the app vendor, rather than
saying "when you patch your app you MUST NOT rename any of the menus".
--
Roland Perry

In message <tvclco$657m$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:32 on Tue, 21 Mar
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tsvqj4$p3ob$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:55:00 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 20 Feb 2023 at 9:31:03 AM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until
>>>>>>Android 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get
>>>>>>*good* system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which
>>>>>>point they'd ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just
>>>>>>copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then,
>>>>>>it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop
>>>>>>the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen"
>>>>>>phones, and introduced gesture support at around the same time as
>>>>>>part of the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>
>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>
>>> I've already gone to the trouble of posting a video of how Roland's
>>>phone with Android 6 would "just work" as well, he just refuses to
>>>actually learn how to use it. I'm not sure even Apple have cracked
>>>the problem of making something 'just work' when the user wilfully
>>>refuses to actually try.
>>>
>>> It should also be noted that Apple stuff also ceases to 'just work'
>>>after a while of ignoring (or no longer available) software updates
>>>- I have an old iPad that is testament to that, being good for not
>>>much more than a paperweight these days. The question of how Roland
>>>has managed to get someone to sell him in 2021 a supposedly new
>>>device with an operating system that was discontinued in 2016 is
>>>very much at the heart of this mystery...
>>
>> The phone itself was released in 2017, and as a flagship of its time
>> there's nothing in the hardware (other than 5G) which inclines me to buy
>> a more recent design.
>
>A flagship 2017 phone would probably have come with Android 8,

Except there's a race between hardware and software versions, and in
this case it turns out that the first stable release of Android 8
(almost September 2017) was too late for that particular phone's
manufacturing cycle.

>> It's in fact the third example of the same (modulo perhaps
>>gigabytes) model I've had, the previous two having physically broken
>>in some way or another. So to some extent they are simply
>>self-provisioned swapout-repairs.
>
>That proven fragility would put me off buying another one!

There's a degree of "frying pan to the fire" syndrome to take account
of. And I have other things to do than constantly doing smartphone
evaluations, to see which one to buy next.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 18:05:58 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tvcms1$6dt7$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
>>It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.
>
>The only sound system I've ever heard which sounded "real" was the
>product-placement Quad in the Science Museum. I went out and bought
>the same stuff. Excellent (even if my wife complained that electrostatic
>speakers looked like oil-filled radiators).

The room the system is in has a large affect on the sound so unless you have
one of those rooms that reflects no sound (too lazy to google the name) it
will always be compromised anyway.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 19:26:45 +0100
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 21.03.23 19:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I don't want to encourage the marketing people's concept of
>> obsolescence. I prefer to take an engineering view.
>
> From a technical point of view, software that is used for purposes such
>as online payment, that has unpatched security vulnerabilities 3+ years
>old is not safe to use. From an engineering point of view, it broken. It

3 year old hardware should be perfecty capable of running up to date security
code.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 11:22:45 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:34:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Oh yes, I assumed there were technical reasons as well. Also market
>>> reasons. For example, iOS includes a reasonably good, service-independent
>>> email client, but Android doesn't. So there's a market for email clients on
>>> Android, but not on iOS.
>>
>> What do you have against the Android Gmail client? On my phone it
>> supports 2 Gmail and about half a dozen POP3 and IMAP accounts from
>> various providers and seems to work without difficulty. It isn't
>> perfect (they've never fixed the bug that stops searches working for
>> POP3 accounts) but it certainly supports different services, including
>> those from MS, although I install Outlook alongside Gmail for those.
>>
>
>I don't think it has the feature of sending a bc of every sent email to
>yourself?

I don't know, because I've never looked for such a feature.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 19:26:45 +0100
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 21.03.23 19:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> I don't want to encourage the marketing people's concept of
>>> obsolescence. I prefer to take an engineering view.
>>
>> From a technical point of view, software that is used for purposes such
>> as online payment, that has unpatched security vulnerabilities 3+ years
>> old is not safe to use. From an engineering point of view, it broken. It
>
> 3 year old hardware should be perfecty capable of running up to date security
> code.

Of course. Whether there’s a commercial case for the vendor to update the
code for older hardware is where things breaks down. See how Fairphone
supported the Fairphone 2 for an example of how it can be done, though
without even Qualcomm’s support.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 18:05:58 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tvcms1$6dt7$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
>>> It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.
>>
>> The only sound system I've ever heard which sounded "real" was the
>> product-placement Quad in the Science Museum. I went out and bought
>> the same stuff. Excellent (even if my wife complained that electrostatic
>> speakers looked like oil-filled radiators).
>
> The room the system is in has a large affect on the sound so unless you have
> one of those rooms that reflects no sound (too lazy to google the name) it
> will always be compromised anyway.

Anechoic?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tvcjc0$5q7r$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:00 on Tue, 21 Mar
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tv9fkn$3gmsh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:59 on Mon, 20 Mar
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [major snippage - I think I’ve got the attributions correct and
>>>>>> we’re not missing anything relevant]
>>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>>
>>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>>> Android 7. …
>>>>
>>>> [splutter] Then you should rid yourself of it ASAP. Getting any kind of up
>>>> to date support for it will be impossible
>>>
>>> Getting any kind of support is usually impossible. Period.
>>
>> So the manufacturer pushing out patched OS versions isn’t support? <shrug>
>
> Depends what they are patching. If it's some hypothetical [impossible
> even] patch to allow my 4G phone to receive 5G calls, then that would
> address one aspect of the built-in obsolescence. But rather than discuss
> hypotheticals, can you point me at the list of security holes fixed by a
> typical Android OS update?

Let Me DuckDuckGo That For You:
<https://source.android.com/docs/security/bulletin/2022-12-01>

I’m going to skip the rest of the conversation since I have nothing helpful
to add - I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re just as
good at using internet search engines as I am.

I’m glad you’ve managed to bodge your technologies together and make them
work, though, misleading of absent manuals permitting.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tvcjc0$5q7r$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:00 on Tue, 21 Mar
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tv9fkn$3gmsh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:59 on Mon, 20 Mar
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [major snippage - I think I’ve got the attributions correct and
>>>>>>> we’re not missing anything relevant]
>>>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>>>> Android 7. …
>>>>>
>>>>> [splutter] Then you should rid yourself of it ASAP. Getting any kind of up
>>>>> to date support for it will be impossible
>>>>
>>>> Getting any kind of support is usually impossible. Period.
>>>
>>> So the manufacturer pushing out patched OS versions isn’t support? <shrug>
>>
>> Depends what they are patching. If it's some hypothetical [impossible
>> even] patch to allow my 4G phone to receive 5G calls, then that would
>> address one aspect of the built-in obsolescence. But rather than discuss
>> hypotheticals, can you point me at the list of security holes fixed by a
>> typical Android OS update?
>
> Let Me DuckDuckGo That For You:
> <https://source.android.com/docs/security/bulletin/2022-12-01>

I see from that list that they're still providing security patches for
Android versions back to 10. So Android 7 has presumably had no security
patches for at least three years, perhaps more if the mystery manufacturer
of Roland's museum piece chose to stop distributing them earlier.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2023 10:01:42 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 18:05:58 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tvcms1$6dt7$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:45 on Tue, 21 Mar
>>>> It's effective at normal phone screen viewing distances.
>>>
>>> The only sound system I've ever heard which sounded "real" was the
>>> product-placement Quad in the Science Museum. I went out and bought
>>> the same stuff. Excellent (even if my wife complained that electrostatic
>>> speakers looked like oil-filled radiators).
>>
>> The room the system is in has a large affect on the sound so unless you have
>> one of those rooms that reflects no sound (too lazy to google the name) it
>> will always be compromised anyway.
>
>Anechoic?

Thats the one. I've seen on TV a few times some special chamber which reflects
zero sound at all and allegedly people can't stand it for more than a few
minutes. They feel like everything they say is being swallowed or something
like that.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tvclco$657m$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:32 on Tue, 21 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tsvqj4$p3ob$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:55:00 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 20 Feb 2023 at 9:31:03 AM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until
>>>>>>> Android 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get
>>>>>>> *good* system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which
>>>>>>> point they'd ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just
>>>>>>> copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then,
>>>>>>> it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop
>>>>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen"
>>>>>>> phones, and introduced gesture support at around the same time as
>>>>>>> part of the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>
>>>> I've already gone to the trouble of posting a video of how Roland's
>>>> phone with Android 6 would "just work" as well, he just refuses to
>>>> actually learn how to use it. I'm not sure even Apple have cracked
>>>> the problem of making something 'just work' when the user wilfully
>>>> refuses to actually try.
>>>>
>>>> It should also be noted that Apple stuff also ceases to 'just work'
>>>> after a while of ignoring (or no longer available) software updates
>>>> - I have an old iPad that is testament to that, being good for not
>>>> much more than a paperweight these days. The question of how Roland
>>>> has managed to get someone to sell him in 2021 a supposedly new
>>>> device with an operating system that was discontinued in 2016 is
>>>> very much at the heart of this mystery...
>>>
>>> The phone itself was released in 2017, and as a flagship of its time
>>> there's nothing in the hardware (other than 5G) which inclines me to buy
>>> a more recent design.
>>
>> A flagship 2017 phone would probably have come with Android 8,
>
> Except there's a race between hardware and software versions, and in
> this case it turns out that the first stable release of Android 8
> (almost September 2017) was too late for that particular phone's
> manufacturing cycle.
>
>>> It's in fact the third example of the same (modulo perhaps
>>> gigabytes) model I've had, the previous two having physically broken
>>> in some way or another. So to some extent they are simply
>>> self-provisioned swapout-repairs.
>>
>> That proven fragility would put me off buying another one!
>
> There's a degree of "frying pan to the fire" syndrome to take account
> of. And I have other things to do than constantly doing smartphone
> evaluations, to see which one to buy next.

So you chose which dirt cheap, used phone to buy off eBay based on the
brand, not the specifications?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tvclco$657m$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:32 on Tue, 21 Mar
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> The phone itself was released in 2017, and as a flagship of its time
>>> there's nothing in the hardware (other than 5G) which inclines me to buy
>>> a more recent design.
>>
>> A flagship 2017 phone would probably have come with Android 8,
>
> Except there's a race between hardware and software versions, and in
> this case it turns out that the first stable release of Android 8
> (almost September 2017) was too late for that particular phone's
> manufacturing cycle.

So why didn't the previous owners update it to Android 8 and 9? Most
phones get a couple of years of OS updates, followed by a year or two of
security patches.

I suppose those old OS updates were no longer available by the time you
bought it on eBay.