On 13/02/2023 08:11, Clank wrote:
> ATC automation is practically a dead certainty, in the fullness of time. But
> being essentially a government monopoly service (even when it's outsourced to
> supposedly private suppliers), you can expect it to take a while.

I think they already add-ons like Collision Avoidance which warns if two
aircraft are going to collide. But I don't think Air Traffic Control
will go further than features like that.

If the system goes down, at the moment, they can revert to doing it the
old fashioned 'manual' way. In the words of Yes Minister, it would be a
'brave' decision to automate the whole system.

On 13/02/2023 16:14, Recliner wrote:
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/02/2023 12:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:29:27 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/02/2023 10:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/02/2023 01:17, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 21:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:05:46 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 11:30:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so what is gained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, as I said, the remote drivers would only be needed if the automatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle's computers get flummoxed. So, most of the time, the vehicles would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go about their business automatically, without a dedicated VR driver at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> base. A small number of remote drivers would provide assistance to a large
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fleet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How does a remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Remotely. You?d have to design it with suitable diagnostics and
>>>>>>>>>>> monitoring.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That might involve a great number of different detectors to substitute
>>>>>>>>>> for using a Mk1 human.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those sensors are probably fitted anyway to automated vehicles.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quite likely for expected faults but there are practical and financial
>>>>>>>> limits on how much can be monitored rather than making sure it fails
>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be designed to fail safe anyway, and summon help, perhaps after a
>>>>>>> system dump and reboot. During that time, the remote driver would be called
>>>>>>> into action.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would the remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By looking at the electronic displays, much as how modern car faults are
>>>>> diagnosed in the garage.
>>>>
>>>> How on earth would an electronic display help if the train has driven
>>>> over debris on the track?
>>>
>>> Recorded camera images and videos? Even if there was a driver on board,
>>> s/he wouldn't be able to do a mechanical
>>> inspection of the underfloor equipment.
>> But that is exactly what happens.
>>
>
> So they get their spanners out and repair the damage? Or do they just do
> what the computer would already have done, and call for help?
>
The driver can determine if the train can proceed, proceed at reduced
speed, or not at all.

Without a driver the passengers will just have to wait... And wait...
And wait. The number of times passengers are trapped on trains for
excessive periods will increase.

On 13 Feb 2023 at 8:18:32 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 13/02/2023 08:11, Clank wrote:
>> ATC automation is practically a dead certainty, in the fullness of time. But
>> being essentially a government monopoly service (even when it's outsourced to
>> supposedly private suppliers), you can expect it to take a while.
>
>
> I think they already add-ons like Collision Avoidance which warns if two
> aircraft are going to collide. But I don't think Air Traffic Control
> will go further than features like that.
>
> If the system goes down, at the moment, they can revert to doing it the
> old fashioned 'manual' way.

There is already significantly more automation involved in ATC than just
collision avoidance - as the FAA says in its staffing plan "New tools are
coming on line that will help controllers manage the changes in the operating
environment of the NAS and progress is accelerating in critical areas that
impact the controller workforce. As these changes impact controller workload
or capacity in the future, FAA staffing models will be adjusted to account for
those impacts," and you can rest assured that the adjustment to the staffing
models does not mean "hire more".

It's already the case that the only thing they can revert to doing the old
fashioned 'manual' way is getting everyone out of the sky as quickly as
possible - this is repeatedly demonstrated when every time there is an ATC
failure (e.g. the NOTAM system failure last year, or the Swiss ATC failure
last summer) the result is not controllers heroically stacking manual flight
progress strips - it's closure of the airspace. There simply isn't the ability
to manage the amount of traffic we have these days without automation.

> In the words of Yes Minister, it would be a
> 'brave' decision to automate the whole system.

True enough. Although, it's something that they can do in a creeping fashion.
The vast majority of airspace is already uncontrolled, and the vast majority
of airports have no tower and no approach control - including ones at which
commercial passenger transports land. Many many opportunities to "soft launch'
the technology.

Much like the autonomous planes, probably not in my lifetime, but not much
further out.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 13/02/2023 16:14, Recliner wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 13/02/2023 12:42, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:29:27 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/02/2023 10:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/02/2023 01:17, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 21:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:05:46 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 11:30:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so what is gained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, as I said, the remote drivers would only be needed if the automatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle's computers get flummoxed. So, most of the time, the vehicles would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go about their business automatically, without a dedicated VR driver at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base. A small number of remote drivers would provide assistance to a large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fleet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How does a remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Remotely. You?d have to design it with suitable diagnostics and
>>>>>>>>>>>> monitoring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That might involve a great number of different detectors to substitute
>>>>>>>>>>> for using a Mk1 human.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Those sensors are probably fitted anyway to automated vehicles.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Quite likely for expected faults but there are practical and financial
>>>>>>>>> limits on how much can be monitored rather than making sure it fails
>>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would be designed to fail safe anyway, and summon help, perhaps after a
>>>>>>>> system dump and reboot. During that time, the remote driver would be called
>>>>>>>> into action.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How would the remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By looking at the electronic displays, much as how modern car faults are
>>>>>> diagnosed in the garage.
>>>>>
>>>>> How on earth would an electronic display help if the train has driven
>>>>> over debris on the track?
>>>>
>>>> Recorded camera images and videos? Even if there was a driver on board,
>>>> s/he wouldn't be able to do a mechanical
>>>> inspection of the underfloor equipment.
>>> But that is exactly what happens.
>>>
>>
>> So they get their spanners out and repair the damage? Or do they just do
>> what the computer would already have done, and call for help?
>>
> The driver can determine if the train can proceed, proceed at reduced
> speed, or not at all.
>
> Without a driver the passengers will just have to wait... And wait...
> And wait. The number of times passengers are trapped on trains for
> excessive periods will increase.
>

I'm not advocating unmanned long distance trains. My original comment that
triggered this subthread was about driverless vehicles in general.

For example, driverless robocabs are already in operation in some cities,
but I bet they sometimes fail safe, and need human assistance. The first
response may come from a remote driver/technician who attempts to sort out
the problem and get the vehicle on the move again. Only in the last resort
would they send out a patrol.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:29:27 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 13/02/2023 10:53, Recliner wrote:
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 13/02/2023 01:17, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 21:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:05:46 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 11:30:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>>>>>>>>>>> so what is gained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, as I said, the remote drivers would only be needed if the automatic
>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle's computers get flummoxed. So, most of the time, the vehicles would
>>>>>>>>>>> go about their business automatically, without a dedicated VR driver at
>>>>>>>>>>> base. A small number of remote drivers would provide assistance to a large
>>>>>>>>>>> fleet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How does a remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Remotely. You?d have to design it with suitable diagnostics and
>>>>>>>>> monitoring.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That might involve a great number of different detectors to substitute
>>>>>>>> for using a Mk1 human.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Those sensors are probably fitted anyway to automated vehicles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite likely for expected faults but there are practical and financial
>>>>>> limits on how much can be monitored rather than making sure it fails
>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be designed to fail safe anyway, and summon help, perhaps after a
>>>>> system dump and reboot. During that time, the remote driver would be called
>>>>> into action.
>>>>>
>>>> How would the remote driver examine the train?
>>>>
>>>
>>> By looking at the electronic displays, much as how modern car faults are
>>> diagnosed in the garage.
>>
>> How on earth would an electronic display help if the train has driven
>> over debris on the track?
>
> Recorded camera images and videos? Even if there was a driver on board,
> s/he wouldn't be able to do a mechanical
> inspection of the underfloor equipment.
>

I might not carry a toolkit, but when a train hits a tree/other
obstruction, one of the things the driver/crew very much can do, is walk
down the side of the train and see what's physically damaged, which then
informs control/etc. decisions about what to do next - eg can various
things be isolated to allow the train to continue at reduced speed, or is
assistance from fitters/another train needed?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 16:14:52 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/02/2023 12:42, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 11:29:27 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/02/2023 10:53, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/02/2023 01:17, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 21:48:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:05:46 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 11:30:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so what is gained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, as I said, the remote drivers would only be needed if the automatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vehicle's computers get flummoxed. So, most of the time, the vehicles would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go about their business automatically, without a dedicated VR driver at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> base. A small number of remote drivers would provide assistance to a large
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fleet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How does a remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Remotely. You?d have to design it with suitable diagnostics and
>>>>>>>>>>> monitoring.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That might involve a great number of different detectors to substitute
>>>>>>>>>> for using a Mk1 human.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those sensors are probably fitted anyway to automated vehicles.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Quite likely for expected faults but there are practical and financial
>>>>>>>> limits on how much can be monitored rather than making sure it fails
>>>>>>>> safe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be designed to fail safe anyway, and summon help, perhaps after a
>>>>>>> system dump and reboot. During that time, the remote driver would be called
>>>>>>> into action.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would the remote driver examine the train?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> By looking at the electronic displays, much as how modern car faults are
>>>>> diagnosed in the garage.
>>>>
>>>> How on earth would an electronic display help if the train has driven
>>>> over debris on the track?
>>>
>>> Recorded camera images and videos? Even if there was a driver on board,
>>> s/he wouldn't be able to do a mechanical
>>> inspection of the underfloor equipment.
>> But that is exactly what happens.
>>
>
>So they get their spanners out and repair the damage? Or do they just do
>what the computer would already have done, and call for help?
>
No, they report back what they find and someone arrives to fix it with
the appropriate kit which might not involve any spanners.

Computers don't always give the right information. My car conked out
on the M25 with a warning light indicating water in the fuel filter.
The man who came to pick it up plugged in his OBD kit which kept
showing several other intermittent faults. Back at the garage they
found the real fault - something had damaged part of the wiring
harness underneath the car, causing spurious fault indications.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 09/02/2023 12:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> [1] Yes, it’s taken a while and it’s not finished yet. I don’t see any
>> reason for it to come to that extreme. Maybe Czechia and Slovakia would be
>> a better example but I don’t know what the relationship is currently like.
>> I probably wouldn’t want to use Yugoslavia as a model.
>
>
>
> There was a report on recently on the anniversary of the Czechia /
> Slovakia split and it was said to have been very amicable.
>
> I think the danger if there is partition of Scotland is from the
> Scottish side. I can't see any official restrictions from England though
> I think that with all the bitterness there has been from the SNP, people
> might avoid Scottish products in the shops like some avoid anything from
> Southern Ireland.
>
> Hopefully the SNP might collapse or at least they might move back from
> wanting partition. Sturgeon does seem to be Dead (Wo)Man Walking.

Now confirmed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907

On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
> Now confirmed.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907

There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
departure!

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>> Now confirmed.
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>
>
> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
> departure!
>

People seem to have strong feelings about her, either way.

In a funny way, she reminds me of Boris. They couldn't be more different
other than they both share one strength (winning elections) and one
weakness (governing competently).

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:14:46 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>> Now confirmed.
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>
>>
>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>> departure!
>>
>
>People seem to have strong feelings about her, either way.
>
>In a funny way, she reminds me of Boris. They couldn't be more different
>other than they both share one strength (winning elections) and one
>weakness (governing competently).

Another weakness I suspect is that neither listens to advice until its too late.

However whatever you think about Boris - and I've never been a fan even when he
was mayor - I suspect he'd be far more congenial company at a party or down the
pub than Sturgeon who seems to have all the personality of a boiled potato.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 09:14:46 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Now confirmed.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>>
>>>
>>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>>> departure!
>>>
>>
>> People seem to have strong feelings about her, either way.
>>
>> In a funny way, she reminds me of Boris. They couldn't be more different
>> other than they both share one strength (winning elections) and one
>> weakness (governing competently).
>
> Another weakness I suspect is that neither listens to advice until its too late.
>
> However whatever you think about Boris - and I've never been a fan even when he
> was mayor - I suspect he'd be far more congenial company at a party or down the
> pub than Sturgeon who seems to have all the personality of a boiled potato.

Yes, at a personal level, they couldn't be more different.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>> Now confirmed.
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>
>
> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
> departure!

There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
politician.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:00:04 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>> Now confirmed.
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>
>>
>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>> departure!
>
>There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>politician.

Probably fat hairy blokes who like to call themselves Silvia on a saturday
night and rape the occasional woman.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 08:34:12 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>> Now confirmed.
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>
>
>There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>departure!
>
A pretty weak crowd for George Square.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:00:04 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Now confirmed.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>>
>>>
>>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>>> departure!
>>
>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>> politician.
>
> Probably fat hairy blokes who like to call themselves Silvia on a saturday
> night and rape the occasional woman.

And people wonder what we want independence from.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 18:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:00:04 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Now confirmed.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>>>> departure!
>>>
>>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>>> politician.
>>
>> Probably fat hairy blokes who like to call themselves Silvia on a saturday
>> night and rape the occasional woman.
>
>And people wonder what we want independence from.

Have you been under a rock while the whole Adam Graham situation happened
that ultimately brought down sturgeon? Last time I looked that cross dressing
bastard was 100% scottish.

Pillock.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 18:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:00:04 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Now confirmed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>>>>> departure!
>>>>
>>>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>>>> politician.
>>>
>>> Probably fat hairy blokes who like to call themselves Silvia on a saturday
>>> night and rape the occasional woman.
>>
>> And people wonder what we want independence from.
>
> Have you been under a rock while the whole Adam Graham situation happened
> that ultimately brought down sturgeon? Last time I looked that cross dressing
> bastard was 100% scottish.
>
> Pillock.

I was thinking of fat hairy blokes with attitudes that would disgrace the
pages of Viz.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:43:00 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 18:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:00:04 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Now confirmed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>>>>> departure!
>>>>
>>>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>>>> politician.
>>>
>>> Probably fat hairy blokes who like to call themselves Silvia on a saturday
>>> night and rape the occasional woman.
>>
>>And people wonder what we want independence from.
>
>Have you been under a rock while the whole Adam Graham situation happened
>that ultimately brought down sturgeon? Last time I looked that cross dressing
>bastard was 100% scottish.
>
>Pillock.
>
You are in contempt of court.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 17:56:26 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:43:00 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 18:02:15 -0000 (UTC)
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:00:04 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 15/02/2023 10:03, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Now confirmed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64647907
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were apparently crowds out in Glasgow last night celebrating her
>>>>>> departure!
>>>>>
>>>>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>>>>> politician.
>>>>
>>>> Probably fat hairy blokes who like to call themselves Silvia on a saturday
>>>> night and rape the occasional woman.
>>>
>>>And people wonder what we want independence from.
>>
>>Have you been under a rock while the whole Adam Graham situation happened
>>that ultimately brought down sturgeon? Last time I looked that cross dressing
>>bastard was 100% scottish.
>>
>>Pillock.
>>
>You are in contempt of court.
>
Ah, no you aren't. That case is done. :(

(buses.... coming together....)

On 16/02/2023 11:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
> politician.

Or the SNP party faithful with their bottles of Buckie.

On 16/02/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> However whatever you think about Boris - and I've never been a fan even when he
> was mayor - I suspect he'd be far more congenial company at a party or down the
> pub than Sturgeon who seems to have all the personality of a boiled potato.

There was someone earlier today complaining that Sturgeon was criticised
over her appearance because she was a woman! They obviously never
listened to some of the things said about Boris Johnson especially when
some were because of genetic condition that he has.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 16/02/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> However whatever you think about Boris - and I've never been a fan even when he
>> was mayor - I suspect he'd be far more congenial company at a party or down the
>> pub than Sturgeon who seems to have all the personality of a boiled potato.
>
>
> There was someone earlier today complaining that Sturgeon was criticised
> over her appearance because she was a woman! They obviously never
> listened to some of the things said about Boris Johnson especially when
> some were because of genetic condition that he has.
>

Is the inability to tuck a shirt in a genetic condition? Or being a
congenital liar?

Incidentally, the editor and editor-in-chief of your favourite paper are
expecting well-earned gongs (knighthood and peerage, respectively) as
rewards for their devoted, unconditional support in BoJo's resignation
honours list, due imminently. Which of them invented his 'genetic
condition'?

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 22:54:47 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 16/02/2023 11:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>> politician.
>
>
>Or the SNP party faithful with their bottles of Buckie.
>
That is Airdrie Labour (Scotland branch).

On 17/02/2023 23:12, Recliner wrote:
> Is the inability to tuck a shirt in a genetic condition? Or being a
> congenital liar?
>
> Incidentally, the editor and editor-in-chief of your favourite paper are
> expecting well-earned gongs (knighthood and peerage, respectively) as
> rewards for their devoted, unconditional support in BoJo's resignation
> honours list, due imminently. Which of them invented his 'genetic
> condition'?

Uncombable hair syndrome is a recognise genetic condition, has your
favourite paper, The Nation, not mentioned it or are they too busy
campaigning for the Beatification of Sturgeon?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 22:54:47 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 16/02/2023 11:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> There were probably as many commiserating with a wee dram - a very marmite
>>> politician.
>>
>>
>> Or the SNP party faithful with their bottles of Buckie.
>>
> That is Airdrie Labour (Scotland branch).

We should be playing Stereotype Bingo!

Sam

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