On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
> with the camera described.

Isn't that common with a lot of software. I was confused with my car's
controls for some time until I realised that Volkswagen used names for
things in the manual that were different from what was displayed in the car.

On 20/03/2023 08:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>> phones are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>> did in v9
>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>> years.
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>> to drop
>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>> and
>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>> even in
>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>> the
>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>> phone.
>
> [Still playing catch-up]
>
> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.
>
> Anyway, it's now searchable because I found an App which does that.
> Although that requires one to remember the stupid marketing name of the
> gadget whose app you are looking for. (eg "Starship" for the CoOp's
> robot home delivery service)
>
> [1] Apparently some people think the only important thing about a phone
>     is the reflected glory, rather than its specification.
>
>> Most of the alleged problems you encounter with Android would go away if
>> you used an iPhone.
>
> I've used iPhones in the past, but have my reasons for not using them
> now. I hear people complaining about potholes in Fen roads, a problem
> which would go away if they bought a decent SUV.

And the roads would all become dirt tracks.

On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>> use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>> oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>
>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>
> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>
> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
> screen in front of you.

That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.

>
> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
> descriptions of the hardware.
>
> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
> consistent/stable?
>
> Last weekend's task was to find an App to turn my phone into a remote
> control for a Fire Stick (a popular TV streaming device M'lud). But so
> far the one I was pushed towards turns out to be for a Fire TV[1]
> instead, and doesn't pair as claimed. So further investigation is
> required. Again, I doubt the manual for the phone will be of any
> assistance.
>
> [1] Or Fire TV Recast/Fire TV Blaster

On 20/03/2023 10:26, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>
>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>
>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>
>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>
>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>> screen in front of you.
>>
>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>
>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>> consistent/stable?
>>
> Yes. AppStore guidelines. Though could be more strict in my view.
>
>
>
They're already so strict that some apps cannot be ported from Android.

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:40:24 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>>> use
>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>>> oneself
>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>
>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>
>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>
>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>
>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>> screen in front of you.
>
>That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
>indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
>now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.

I've never come across an Android manual, despite using it for years. I just Google for help if I can't work things out
myself, but I find that most things are easily discoverable without any user guides.

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:43:08 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>On 20/03/2023 10:26, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>
>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>
>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>
>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>> screen in front of you.
>>>
>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>>
>>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>>> consistent/stable?
>>>
>> Yes. AppStore guidelines. Though could be more strict in my view.
>>
>>
>>
>They're already so strict that some apps cannot be ported from Android.

it seems to work both ways: I have iOS apps that aren't available on Android, just as I have Android apps that aren't
available on iOS.

On 20/03/2023 13:03, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:40:24 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>>>> oneself
>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>
>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>
>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>
>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>> screen in front of you.
>>
>> That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
>> indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
>> now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.
>
> I've never come across an Android manual, despite using it for years. I just Google for help if I can't work things out
> myself, but I find that most things are easily discoverable without any user guides.

I said ALL manuals not Android manuals.

The trouble with searching Google for help is it no longer allows users
to home in on their particular problem, just what the herd has been
looking for, which is useless when you're looking for an obscure problem.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:43:08 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 20/03/2023 10:26, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>
>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>>
>>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>>> screen in front of you.
>>>>
>>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>>>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>>>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>>>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>>>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>>>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>>>
>>>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>>>> consistent/stable?
>>>>
>>> Yes. AppStore guidelines. Though could be more strict in my view.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> They're already so strict that some apps cannot be ported from Android.
>
> it seems to work both ways: I have iOS apps that aren't available on
> Android, just as I have Android apps that aren't
> available on iOS.

That’s not just, and maybe not even, UI (user interface) issues. Apple
have also tightened up other stuff. For instance some network monitoring
software that used to work on iPads no longer does because Apple restricted
access to some network features; you can’t (straighforwardly) develop web
pages on an iPad because browsers aren’t allowed to read the local file
system. I haven’t had occasion to try the latter on my Android phone -
perhaps I should…

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>>> use
>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>>> oneself
>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>
>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>
>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>
>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>
>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>> screen in front of you.
>
> That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
> indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
> now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.

Might I suggest that your exposure to manuals might be a little limited?
That perhaps you haven’t actually read all the manuals in the world?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20/03/2023 14:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>>>> oneself
>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>
>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>
>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>
>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>> screen in front of you.
>>
>> That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
>> indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
>> now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.
>
> Might I suggest that your exposure to manuals might be a little limited?
> That perhaps you haven’t actually read all the manuals in the world?
>

No. I've been using technical manuals since I was a school and they
definitely pale into comparison today.

On 20/03/2023 13:16, Coffee wrote:
> The trouble with searching Google for help is it no longer allows users
> to home in on their particular problem, just what the herd has been
> looking for, which is useless when you're looking for an obscure problem.

I would say it is more accurate to say that it gives what advertises
have paid for.

Search on the most obscure service or product and the smallest village
that you think of. Google will offer you screens full of companies
claiming to be able to provide the service or product in that location.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 11:43:08 +0000, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/03/2023 10:26, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>>
>>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>>>> screen in front of you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>>>>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>>>>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>>>>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>>>>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>>>>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>>>>> consistent/stable?
>>>>>
>>>> Yes. AppStore guidelines. Though could be more strict in my view.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> They're already so strict that some apps cannot be ported from Android.
>>
>> it seems to work both ways: I have iOS apps that aren't available on
>> Android, just as I have Android apps that aren't
>> available on iOS.
>
> That’s not just, and maybe not even, UI (user interface) issues. Apple
> have also tightened up other stuff. For instance some network monitoring
> software that used to work on iPads no longer does because Apple restricted
> access to some network features; you can’t (straighforwardly) develop web
> pages on an iPad because browsers aren’t allowed to read the local file
> system. I haven’t had occasion to try the latter on my Android phone -
> perhaps I should…

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 20/03/2023 14:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>>>>> oneself
>>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>
>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>>
>>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>>> screen in front of you.
>>>
>>> That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
>>> indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
>>> now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.
>>
>> Might I suggest that your exposure to manuals might be a little limited?
>> That perhaps you haven’t actually read all the manuals in the world?
>>
>
> No. I've been using technical manuals since I was a school and they
> definitely pale into comparison today.
>
>

You don’t need an index with the search facilities a computer provides. A
table of contents is still useful though. These are still provided in my
experience.

What annoys me with manuals, and specifically car manuals, is they are
still incapable of providing a manual that matches the features on your car
and omits the things you don’t have. My latest new car has an electronic
only manual. 600 pages! You’d imagine the computer system that decides what
parts are fitted at manufacture could also create a bespoke manual.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 20/03/2023 14:45, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>>> 9  (wherein  it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>>> system-wide gesture  support until Android 10, at which point
>>>>>>>> they'd ditched what they did  in v9  and essentially just copied
>>>>>>>> what Samsung had been doing for a few years.  Since then, it's been
>>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first  to drop  the
>>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>>>>> and introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of
>>>>>>>> the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>>> generation  (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is  too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>>> even in  Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>>> needs to find the  manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind
>>>>>>> oneself
>>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>
>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>>
>>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>>> screen in front of you.
>>>
>>> That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
>>> indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
>>> now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.
>>
>> Might I suggest that your exposure to manuals might be a little limited?
>> That perhaps you haven’t actually read all the manuals in the world?
>>
>
> No. I've been using technical manuals since I was a school and they
> definitely pale into comparison today.

Until I retired 3 years ago I frequently used online versions of technical
manuals from both Cisco and HP. They were pretty much the equal of the
printed ones we had had in former years; the Cisco ones, in HTML rather
than PDF[1], were probably better.

[1] The UoEd’s webmeisters werer adamant that HTML was useless for anything
over about a page and that anything more substantial had to be published as
PDF. The Cisco example was a direct contradiction but it didn’t seem to
sway them.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20/03/2023 17:54, Tweed wrote:
> You don’t need an index with the search facilities a computer provides. A
> table of contents is still useful though. These are still provided in my
> experience.

A structured index is much better than a free text search especially
when many give you limited control of the search. Even the basic
inverted commas to act as an AND does not always work. I can't remember
when I last saw a search with NEAR2 available.

On 20 Mar 2023 at 1:36:27 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>> with the camera described.
>
>
>
> Isn't that common with a lot of software. I was confused with my car's
> controls for some time until I realised that Volkswagen used names for
> things in the manual that were different from what was displayed in the car.

One suspects that in Roland's case the problem is exacerbated by the manual
documenting the current version of the software, while Roland is using
whatever deprecated version will still run on a decade old, unsupported OS.

I'm genuinely surprised he can find any modern apps that will still install on
Android 7; it is at least now clear why he thinks many things that we take for
granted are impossible, though.

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:34:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Oh yes, I assumed there were technical reasons as well. Also market
>reasons. For example, iOS includes a reasonably good, service-independent
>email client, but Android doesn't. So there's a market for email clients on
>Android, but not on iOS.

What do you have against the Android Gmail client? On my phone it
supports 2 Gmail and about half a dozen POP3 and IMAP accounts from
various providers and seems to work without difficulty. It isn't
perfect (they've never fixed the bug that stops searches working for
POP3 accounts) but it certainly supports different services, including
those from MS, although I install Outlook alongside Gmail for those.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:34:37 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh yes, I assumed there were technical reasons as well. Also market
>> reasons. For example, iOS includes a reasonably good, service-independent
>> email client, but Android doesn't. So there's a market for email clients on
>> Android, but not on iOS.
>
> What do you have against the Android Gmail client? On my phone it
> supports 2 Gmail and about half a dozen POP3 and IMAP accounts from
> various providers and seems to work without difficulty. It isn't
> perfect (they've never fixed the bug that stops searches working for
> POP3 accounts) but it certainly supports different services, including
> those from MS, although I install Outlook alongside Gmail for those.
>

I don't think it has the feature of sending a bc of every sent email to
yourself?

In message <tv9fkn$3gmsh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:59 on Mon, 20 Mar
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>> are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>
>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>
>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>
>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>> Android 7. …
>
>[splutter] Then you should rid yourself of it ASAP. Getting any kind of up
>to date support for it will be impossible

Getting any kind of support is usually impossible. Period.

>and any security holes revealed in the last 4-5 years will remain
>unpatched.

Patching "security holes" doesn't stop people buying what turns out to
be a counterfeit item on eBay.

>Do us all a favour and forget it.
>
>> … The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>
>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>> screen in front of you.
>>
>> Last week I was installing an app for a security …
>
>Security, on an insecure platform. Right.

Different kind of security. One is property, the other is, well, I'd
welcome any suggestions... the video link to my phone is end-to-end
encrypted, and I expect anyone attacking that to snoop on the stream
(why?) isn't going to have any better luck because of a slightly old OS.

>> … camera, and the version
>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>
>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>> consistent/stable?
>>
>> Last weekend's task was to find an App to turn my phone into a remote
>> control for a Fire Stick (a popular TV streaming device M'lud). But so
>> far the one I was pushed towards turns out to be for a Fire TV[1]
>> instead, and doesn't pair as claimed. So further investigation is
>> required. Again, I doubt the manual for the phone will be of any
>> assistance.
>>
>> [1] Or Fire TV Recast/Fire TV Blaster
>
>For goodness’ sake, just get an up to date phone!

How will that fix the Amazon Fire app? Do tell.

--
Roland Perry

In message <tsvntj$oqmd$5@dont-email.me>, at 12:09:23 on Mon, 20 Feb
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until
>>>>>Android 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get
>>>>>*good* system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which
>>>>>point they'd ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just
>>>>>copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then,
>>>>>it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop
>>>>>the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen"
>>>>>phones, and introduced gesture support at around the same time as
>>>>>part of the 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does
>>>>>exist, even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland
>>>>>just needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>
>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>
>Exactly!
>
>My inexpensive Android phone 'just works'. It never goes wrong, has a long
>battery life, 128GB of storage, a wonderful big, bright, sharp OLED screen,
>and I have no trouble using my many apps, including telephone banking and
>paying for things. It has both facial recognition and an in-screen
>fingerprint scanner, which is really convenient. It even has stereo
>speakers.

The part which most often "doesn't work" are the apps.

You appear to have forgotten the sorry tale of the Southeastern ITSO app
which crashed every time it was presented with a card to NFC-read. The
developers said that this was because I was using a non-SE ITSO card,
which was wrong on two levels. Firstly I *was* using their card (and it
was a bit insulting of them to assume I hadn't at least tried that one)
and secondly if there's a reason to not-read someone else's then rather
than crash it should either simply be silent, or put up a message saying
"Sorry, we are only prepared to read our own ITSO cards".

Which of course mean that they *did* read the 'foreign' one, because how
else would they know it wasn't one of theirs?

A later version fixed both bugs.

The Amex-Pay app didn't work on a GTR TVM, and I never did get to the
bottom of whether or not it was *expected* to work (ie was there some
systemic missing middleware, or perhaps *that particular* TVM was
broken).

Google-Pay doesn't work on the M6-toll, but that's because the operators
have deliberately chosen to refuse it (and Apple-Pay, so even that
platform "just doesn't work"; and no doubt Amex-Pay, although they omit
to specifically mention it).

>But, being a relatively cheap phone, a couple of the cameras aren't great,
>just as I expected (I'm often carrying one or more 'proper' cameras, that
>produce much better images than any phone cameras). If I shot more pictures
>on the phone, I'd have bought a more expensive model with better cameras.
>
>The Android version has been updated twice, which was a completely painless
>process,

Good to hear. Updating to a new Android phone is never painless. The
most obvious problem being their insistence on re-downloading apps from
the store, and if it's no longer *in* the store, it's lost.

The RTT app (one of the few I'd paid real money for) succumbed to that
fate.

>and I think it'll get one more update, plus continuing security
>patches. So it should have a 4-5 year uncompromised life,

The other thing which happens when updating to a new OS, is that many
functions get moved around or altered (see the infamous "up-swipe"
feature) which not only requires re-learning things, but makes a whole
swathe of online-blog/support-forum advice out of date.

That's also true of iPhones, by the way.

> and longer if I don't mind running a slightly out-of-date OS.

I find they break physically (screens, batteries etc) before then.

>It doesn't have 5G, but that's not currently a problem.

Ditto. Especially as 4G will have the most complete coverage for the
foreseeable future. I expect the number of 2G-4G notspots which
nevertheless do have 5G are tiny. But 2G/3G are not long for this world,
so 4G is a must.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tv9gfr$3gpjc$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:27 on Mon, 20 Mar
2023, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>> with the camera described.
>
>Isn't that common with a lot of software.

Yes, it *is* quite common, but the debate here is whether it's less
likely to happen if the app is running on Android 8 rather than Android
7, or iOS rather than Android.

I really, really, doubt it.

>I was confused with my car's controls for some time until I realised
>that Volkswagen used names for things in the manual that were different
>from what was displayed in the car.

So the people heckling me to "read the manual" were in fact likely to
make things worse, rather than better?
--
Roland Perry

In message <tvajp4$3mvgd$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:38:44 on Mon, 20 Mar
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 20 Mar 2023 at 1:36:27 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 20/03/2023 09:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
>>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>>> with the camera described.
>>
>>
>> Isn't that common with a lot of software. I was confused with my car's
>> controls for some time until I realised that Volkswagen used names for
>> things in the manual that were different from what was displayed in the car.
>
>One suspects that in Roland's case the problem is exacerbated by the manual
>documenting the current version of the software, while Roland is using
>whatever deprecated version will still run on a decade old, unsupported OS.

There is no manual (for the phone) !! Other than perhaps one saying
where you plug the charging cable in.

But feel free to post a photo/screenshot of a phone manufacturer's
manual which describes the operation of the software. My new-ish camera,
on the other hand, has a 165 page manual (and that's just the
English-language version). It recently did a firmware update, but I
haven't yet noticed any resulting lack of correlation.

>I'm genuinely surprised he can find any modern apps that will still install on
>Android 7;

Haven't found a single one yet. My app-app tells me that 70 have either
been first installed or auto-updated since 1st Jan, and all of them
since April 2022.

>it is at least now clear why he thinks many things that we take for
>granted are impossible, though.

The only thing that's clear, is the amount of extremely muddled thinking
about what's actually the problem. It's the apps (and sometimes the
gadgets services the apps are accessing), not the phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tv9t3e$3itfr$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:11:42 on Mon, 20 Mar
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>>
>>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>>> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>>
>>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>>> screen in front of you.
>>>
>>> That's a problems with all manuals. They're poorly written and not
>>> indexed. Manuals used to be properly indexed before computerisation but
>>> now that automatic indexing is possible they don't bother.

>> Might I suggest that your exposure to manuals might be a little
>>limited?

>> That perhaps you haven’t actually read all the manuals in the world?
>
>No. I've been using technical manuals since I was a school and they
>definitely pale into comparison today.

It depends a lot on the thing that's being documented. A free Android
app, you get what you pay for[tm]. Sadly, that rot then seems to infect
quite expensive gadgets which come with bundled apps.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tsvqj4$p3ob$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:55:00 on Mon, 20 Feb
2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>On 20 Feb 2023 at 9:31:03 AM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>> are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android 9
>>>> (wherein
>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they did
>>>> in v9
>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years.
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>> to drop
>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>
>I've already gone to the trouble of posting a video of how Roland's phone with
>Android 6 would "just work" as well, he just refuses to actually learn how to
>use it. I'm not sure even Apple have cracked the problem of making something
>'just work' when the user wilfully refuses to actually try.
>
>It should also be noted that Apple stuff also ceases to 'just work' after a
>while of ignoring (or no longer available) software updates - I have an old
>iPad that is testament to that, being good for not much more than a
>paperweight these days. The question of how Roland has managed to get someone
>to sell him in 2021 a supposedly new device with an operating system that was
>discontinued in 2016 is very much at the heart of this mystery...

The phone itself was released in 2017, and as a flagship of its time
there's nothing in the hardware (other than 5G) which inclines me to buy
a more recent design. It's in fact the third example of the same (modulo
perhaps gigabytes) model I've had, the previous two having physically
broken in some way or another. So to some extent they are simply
self-provisioned swapout-repairs.

I bought a new car in 1981 which I particularly wanted. It had recently
gone out of production with no even vaguely similar substitute; thus
after considerable searching (pre-Google of course) I tracked down
precisely two of them left in stock in factory mint condition. So I
bought the one in the colour I liked the best.

And they gave me a slight discount because as far as they were concerned
it was 'on clearance'; but boys and their toys...

Phones also go 'on clearance' after a while.

The first of the three I'd bought because I needed a "locked to O2"
phone for some particular testing I was doing for a client. But I liked
it so much I kept it (and eBayed my former smartphone). The next two I
bought unlocked.

>To be quite honest I'm starting to reach the conclusion that the man is
>congenital liar as well as a fantasist, because we are frankly all out of
>other rational explanations now. And I don't give a rat's arse if that's
>considered an 'ad hominem attack'.

It's a pack of lies, and why I haven't responded up until now. But as
the subthread had sprung back to life, I'm minded to mop up the
stragglers too.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tv9fkn$3gmsh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:59 on Mon, 20 Mar
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>>>> are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>>>
>>>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>>>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>>>
>>> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
>>> Android 7. …
>>
>> [splutter] Then you should rid yourself of it ASAP. Getting any kind of up
>> to date support for it will be impossible
>
> Getting any kind of support is usually impossible. Period.

So the manufacturer pushing out patched OS versions isn’t support? <shrug>

>> and any security holes revealed in the last 4-5 years will remain
>> unpatched.
>
> Patching "security holes" doesn't stop people buying what turns out to
> be a counterfeit item on eBay.

But it would stop your ebanking app being compromised, or whatever the
exploit du jour is.

>> Do us all a favour and forget it.
>>
>>> … The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
>>> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
>>> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>>>
>>> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
>>> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
>>> screen in front of you.
>>>
>>> Last week I was installing an app for a security …
>>
>> Security, on an insecure platform. Right.
>
> Different kind of security. One is property, the other is, well, I'd
> welcome any suggestions... the video link to my phone is end-to-end
> encrypted, and I expect anyone attacking that to snoop on the stream
> (why?) isn't going to have any better luck because of a slightly old OS.

But they’re more likely to be able to compromise the phone and, say,
extract whatever credentials you have to access the camera. Security is
often a chain of links.

>>> … camera, and the version
>>> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
>>> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
>>> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
>>> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
>>> descriptions of the hardware.
>>>
>>> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
>>> consistent/stable?
>>>
>>> Last weekend's task was to find an App to turn my phone into a remote
>>> control for a Fire Stick (a popular TV streaming device M'lud). But so
>>> far the one I was pushed towards turns out to be for a Fire TV[1]
>>> instead, and doesn't pair as claimed. So further investigation is
>>> required. Again, I doubt the manual for the phone will be of any
>>> assistance.
>>>
>>> [1] Or Fire TV Recast/Fire TV Blaster
>>
>> For goodness’ sake, just get an up to date phone!
>
> How will that fix the Amazon Fire app? Do tell.