4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 19:10:04 -0000 (UTC)
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:49:41 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> Scotland would be far worse off with little to no military than england
>>>>> would be in having to move a couple of its bases. Russian aircraft and
>>ships
>>>>> are always prodding our defenses. You think they won't sail right up to
>>>>> within sight of the forth bridge or overfly the orkneys if Putin knows that
>>
>>>>> a Cessna with a pop gun is all the defense the SNP can muster?
>>>>
>>>> I would expect and independent Scotland to 1) be a friendly nation with the
>>>> UK, and allow overflights by and possibly basing of UK forces; and 2)
>>>> likely be a non-nuclear member of NATO;
>>>
>>> Oh right. So you give us the finger …
>>
>>And there it is. Just like a partner in an abusive relationship we keep
>>being told that we’re too poor and too wee to survive on our own, but it’s
>
>Oh you'd survive, but don't expect to keep the same standard of living. If
>you think Brexit was bad wait until hard borders go up on 60% of scotlands
>exports and you no longer have westminster hand outs.
>
>Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't govern the
>proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>
Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
health services in the UK.

>education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one of the worst.
>
Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.

>Ferries still hopeless.
>
>>still apparently an insult if we want to leave.
>
>You want to talk about insults?
>
>https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottish-
>nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>
>Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>
What proof have you got that they are SNP?

On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>>Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't govern the
>>proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>>
>Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>health services in the UK.

Thats not what I've heard on the radio.

>>education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one of the
>worst.
>>
>Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.

The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone through
the floor. The buck stops with them.

>>https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>h-
>>nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>
>>Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>
>What proof have you got that they are SNP?

You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party doesn't
have that many supporters in total.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 08:52:43 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>>Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't govern the
>>>proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>>>
>>Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>health services in the UK.
>
>Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>
You can hear a lot of rubbish on the radio.

>>>education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one of the
>>worst.
>>>
>>Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>
>The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone through
>the floor. The buck stops with them.
>
It has not "gone through the floor". The PISA graphs which are
typically referred to show the lines for different parts of the UK in
close proximimity to each other, more so if you take into account the
false baseline usually used and heed the OECD's caveat of not making
too direct a comparison between different countries with varying
educational arrangements.

>>>https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>h-
>>>nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>
>>>Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>
>>What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>
>You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party doesn't
>have that many supporters in total.
>
You seem to have a lot of certainty about people you don't know.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 08:52:43 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't govern the
>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>>>>
>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>> health services in the UK.
>>
>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>
> You can hear a lot of rubbish on the radio.
>
>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one of the
>>> worst.
>>>>
>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>
>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone through
>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>
> It has not "gone through the floor". The PISA graphs which are
> typically referred to show the lines for different parts of the UK in
> close proximimity to each other, more so if you take into account the
> false baseline usually used and heed the OECD's caveat of not making
> too direct a comparison between different countries with varying
> educational arrangements.
>
Oh yes, save us from graphs of educational attainment with curtailed
vertical axes. I remember serving as a school governor where the alleged
data was presented with a vertical axis that went from 93 to 97 (because
that’s what Excel did by default) and a decline from 97 to 95 between years
was treated as disaster. Nobody had the faintest concept of measurement
accuracy or even that the tape measure might be different each time.

On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't govern the
>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>>>
>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>> health services in the UK.
>
> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>
>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one of the
>> worst.
>>>
>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>
> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone through
> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>
>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>> h-
>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>
>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>
>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>
> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party doesn't
> have that many supporters in total.
>

I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales. My
view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.

On 28/02/2023 08:02, Coffee wrote:
> On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't
>>>> govern the
>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>>>>
>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>> health services in the UK.
>>
>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>
>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one of
>>>> the
>>> worst.
>>>>
>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>
>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone
>> through
>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>
>>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>> h-
>>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>>
>>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>>
>> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party
>> doesn't
>> have that many supporters in total.
>>
>
> I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
> Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales.   My
> view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.

Wasn't it Gorge Bernard Shaw who declared there were three grades of
lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 28/02/2023 08:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 28/02/2023 08:02, Coffee wrote:
>> On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't
>>>>> govern the
>>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in england,
>>>>>
>>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>>> health services in the UK.
>>>
>>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>>
>>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one
>>>>> of the
>>>> worst.
>>>>>
>>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>>
>>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone
>>> through
>>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>>
>>>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>>> h-
>>>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>>>
>>>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>>>
>>> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party
>>> doesn't
>>> have that many supporters in total.
>>>
>>
>> I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
>> Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales.   My
>> view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.
>
> Wasn't it Gorge Bernard Shaw who declared there were three grades of
> lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
>

Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics

--
Colin

On 28/02/2023 12:45, ColinR wrote:
> On 28/02/2023 08:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 28/02/2023 08:02, Coffee wrote:
>>> On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't
>>>>>> govern the
>>>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in
>>>>>> england,
>>>>>>
>>>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>>>> health services in the UK.
>>>>
>>>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>>>
>>>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one
>>>>>> of the
>>>>> worst.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>>>
>>>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone
>>>> through
>>>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>>>> h-
>>>>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>>>>
>>>> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party
>>>> doesn't
>>>> have that many supporters in total.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
>>> Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales.   My
>>> view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.
>>
>> Wasn't it Gorge Bernard Shaw who declared there were three grades of
>> lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
>>
>
> Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics
>

There's a rule of thumb that says all quotes are from 1) Shakespeare, 2)
Gorge Bernard Shaw, 3) Oscar Wilde, or 4) Winston Churchill.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 28 Feb 2023 at 3:31:41 PM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 28/02/2023 12:45, ColinR wrote:
>> On 28/02/2023 08:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 28/02/2023 08:02, Coffee wrote:
>>>> On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't
>>>>>>> govern the
>>>>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in
>>>>>>> england,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>>>>> health services in the UK.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> worst.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>>>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone
>>>>> through
>>>>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>>>>> h-
>>>>>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>>>>>
>>>>> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> have that many supporters in total.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
>>>> Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales. My
>>>> view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.
>>>
>>> Wasn't it Gorge Bernard Shaw who declared there were three grades of
>>> lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
>>>
>>
>> Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics
>>
>
> There's a rule of thumb that says all quotes are from 1) Shakespeare, 2)
> Gorge Bernard Shaw, 3) Oscar Wilde, or 4) Winston Churchill.

Sartre and Voltaire are not amused.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 14:59:17 -0000 (UTC), Clank
<clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On 28 Feb 2023 at 3:31:41 PM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> On 28/02/2023 12:45, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 28/02/2023 08:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 28/02/2023 08:02, Coffee wrote:
>>>>> On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't
>>>>>>>> govern the
>>>>>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in
>>>>>>>> england,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>>>>>> health services in the UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>>>>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>>>>>> h-
>>>>>>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> have that many supporters in total.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
>>>>> Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales. My
>>>>> view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't it Gorge Bernard Shaw who declared there were three grades of
>>>> lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics
>>>
>>
>> There's a rule of thumb that says all quotes are from 1) Shakespeare, 2)
>> Gorge Bernard Shaw, 3) Oscar Wilde, or 4) Winston Churchill.
>
>Sartre and Voltaire are not amused.

And Germans told to Goethe hell?

On 28/02/2023 14:59, Clank wrote:
> On 28 Feb 2023 at 3:31:41 PM EET, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 28/02/2023 12:45, ColinR wrote:
>>> On 28/02/2023 08:07, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 28/02/2023 08:02, Coffee wrote:
>>>>> On 27/02/2023 08:52, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 05:51:59 +0000
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 4On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:44:35 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Also its crystal clear the SNP are a one trick pony and couldn't
>>>>>>>> govern the
>>>>>>>> proverbial piss up in a whisky distilliary. NHS worse than in
>>>>>>>> england,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Says who? Scotland's NHS is generally better performing than the other
>>>>>>> health services in the UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thats not what I've heard on the radio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> education standards used to be one of the best in europe, now one
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Little different from the rest of the UK. Don't be fooled by graphs
>>>>>>> which miss off over 90% of the vertical axis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The SNP has been in charge of education while its quality has gone
>>>>>> through
>>>>>> the floor. The buck stops with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/stay-the-fk-away-convoy-of-scottis
>>>>>>> h-
>>>>>>>> nationalists-attempt-blockade-on-english-border-2904148
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe the SNP will grow up one day but I won't hold my breath.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What proof have you got that they are SNP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think maybe they're tory voters on a day out? And the Alba party
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> have that many supporters in total.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've noticed that the Welsh Conservatives cherry pick the English and
>>>>> Welsh NHS statistics to claim that so and so is worse in Wales. My
>>>>> view of the statistics is that they're as bad as each other.
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't it Gorge Bernard Shaw who declared there were three grades of
>>>> lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics
>>>
>>
>> There's a rule of thumb that says all quotes are from 1) Shakespeare, 2)
>> Gorge Bernard Shaw, 3) Oscar Wilde, or 4) Winston Churchill.
>
> Sartre and Voltaire are not amused.

But, contrary to received wisdom, Victoria is.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 13:31:41 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 28/02/2023 12:45, ColinR wrote:

>>>
>>
>> Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics
>>
>
>There's a rule of thumb that says all quotes are from 1) Shakespeare, 2)
>Gorge Bernard Shaw, 3) Oscar Wilde, or 4) Winston Churchill.

You've forgotten Mark Twain, unless you intended to restrict it to
Uk/Ireland. And I expect the Bible gave us a few.

On 01/03/2023 10:01, Ken wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 13:31:41 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 28/02/2023 12:45, ColinR wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Complex according o Wikipedia - I always attributed it to Winnie!
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies%2C_damned_lies%2C_and_statistics
>>>
>>
>> There's a rule of thumb that says all quotes are from 1) Shakespeare, 2)
>> George Bernard Shaw, 3) Oscar Wilde, or 4) Winston Churchill.
>
> You've forgotten Mark Twain, unless you intended to restrict it to
> Uk/Ireland. And I expect the Bible gave us a few.

Mark Twain admitted to quoting others.

I hasten to add that list isn't mine but one I've come across a few
times in these sort of discussions.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <fn86vhha6dbv99g72gn0fe4le4a29t9coi@4ax.com>, at 08:07:18 on
Mon, 20 Feb 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>>>But the Divorce Settlement with the EU is to cover ongoing payments the UK
>>>had already committed to.

Not entirely, some of it is for things like pensions for Brits who were
working for various EU institutions, and which the British public voted
to make redundant.

>>>It’s not clear that Scotland would be liable to
>>>any such, given how it’s usually pictured as a drain on the UK economy.
>>
>>Precisely that. It's sitting on loads of assets which have been paid for
>>by the UK, and ought to "buy" off r-UK in the event of a divorce.
>>
>Assets such as what ?

Infrastructure is a big one.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>
>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>
>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones are.
>>
>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>> as dating to May 2021.
>>
>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>9 (wherein
>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they did in v9
>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years.
>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop
>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>
>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>
>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite likely
>>>even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>
>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>> issue.
>>
>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist, even in
>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find the
>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>
>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>
>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>
>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>
>You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>phone.

[Still playing catch-up]

It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.

Anyway, it's now searchable because I found an App which does that.
Although that requires one to remember the stupid marketing name of the
gadget whose app you are looking for. (eg "Starship" for the CoOp's
robot home delivery service)

[1] Apparently some people think the only important thing about a phone
is the reflected glory, rather than its specification.

>Most of the alleged problems you encounter with Android would go away if
>you used an iPhone.

I've used iPhones in the past, but have my reasons for not using them
now. I hear people complaining about potholes in Fen roads, a problem
which would go away if they bought a decent SUV.
--
Roland Perry

On 20.03.23 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>> phones are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>> did in v9
>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>> years.
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>> to drop
>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>> and
>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>> even in
>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>> the
>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>> phone.
>
> [Still playing catch-up]
>
> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.

Android 7 dates from 2016 and has been entirely unsupported since 2019
(not even security patches). It doesn't seem like a good idea to do
anything related to financial transactions like buyign railway tickets
using such a vulnerable, unsupported and unpatched operating system.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 20.03.23 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>>> phones are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>>> did in v9
>>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>>> years.
>>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>>> to drop
>>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>> and
>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in
>>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>>> the
>>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>>> phone.
>>
>> [Still playing catch-up]
>>
>> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
>> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.
>
> Android 7 dates from 2016 and has been entirely unsupported since 2019
> (not even security patches). It doesn't seem like a good idea to do
> anything related to financial transactions like buyign railway tickets
> using such a vulnerable, unsupported and unpatched operating system.
>
> Robin
>

At least we now know we can safely ignore any of Roland’s self declared
“research” in respect of mobile phone apps and their usability.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 20.03.23 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>>> phones are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>>> did in v9
>>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>>> years.
>>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>>> to drop
>>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>> and
>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in
>>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>>> the
>>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>>> phone.
>>
>> [Still playing catch-up]
>>
>> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
>> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.
>
> Android 7 dates from 2016 and has been entirely unsupported since 2019
> (not even security patches). It doesn't seem like a good idea to do
> anything related to financial transactions like buyign railway tickets
> using such a vulnerable, unsupported and unpatched operating system.

Yes, and given that most Android phones received at least one, sometimes
more, Android version updates, I assume Roland's phone is no newer than a
2014 model. But I wonder why he's so ashamed of its make and model?

In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>> are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>
>My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.

The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.

And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
screen in front of you.

Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
descriptions of the hardware.

Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
consistent/stable?

Last weekend's task was to find an App to turn my phone into a remote
control for a Fire Stick (a popular TV streaming device M'lud). But so
far the one I was pushed towards turns out to be for a Fire TV[1]
instead, and doesn't pair as claimed. So further investigation is
required. Again, I doubt the manual for the phone will be of any
assistance.

[1] Or Fire TV Recast/Fire TV Blaster
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they did in v9
>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few years.
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop
>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite likely
>>>> even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist, even in
>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find the
>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>> phone.
>
> [Still playing catch-up]
>
> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.

And presumably dates from no later than 2014. A starving African child
would turn down an ancient phone like that.

>
> Anyway, it's now searchable because I found an App which does that.

It was always searchable, using the app that every Android phone already
has, which I informed you about.

> Although that requires one to remember the stupid marketing name of the
> gadget whose app you are looking for. (eg "Starship" for the CoOp's
> robot home delivery service)
>
> [1] Apparently some people think the only important thing about a phone
> is the reflected glory, rather than its specification.

A 2014 model phone, regardless of list price when new, is bound to have a
very low specification by current standards. Even the most modest entry
level 2023 smartphone is bound to be far more sophisticated.

>
>> Most of the alleged problems you encounter with Android would go away if
>> you used an iPhone.
>
> I've used iPhones in the past, but have my reasons for not using them now.

One reason: cost.

But what happened to your recent announced plan to buy an elderly iPhone
and a Watch to pair with it?

On 20/03/2023 08:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>> phones are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>> did in v9
>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>> years.
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>> to drop
>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>> and
>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>> even in
>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>> the
>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>> phone.
>
> [Still playing catch-up]
>
> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.
>
> Anyway, it's now searchable because I found an App which does that.
> Although that requires one to remember the stupid marketing name of the
> gadget whose app you are looking for. (eg "Starship" for the CoOp's
> robot home delivery service)
>
> [1] Apparently some people think the only important thing about a phone
>     is the reflected glory, rather than its specification.

That person being you.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>
>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>
> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
> Android 7. The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>
> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
> screen in front of you.
>
> Last week I was installing an app for a security camera, and the version
> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
> descriptions of the hardware.
>
> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
> consistent/stable?
>
Yes. AppStore guidelines. Though could be more strict in my view.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/03/2023 08:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>>> phones are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>>> did in v9
>>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>>> years.
>>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>>> to drop
>>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>>> and
>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in
>>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>>> the
>>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>>> phone.
>>
>> [Still playing catch-up]
>>
>> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
>> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.
>>
>> Anyway, it's now searchable because I found an App which does that.
>> Although that requires one to remember the stupid marketing name of the
>> gadget whose app you are looking for. (eg "Starship" for the CoOp's
>> robot home delivery service)
>>
>> [1] Apparently some people think the only important thing about a phone
>>     is the reflected glory, rather than its specification.
>
> That person being you.

Yes, good point. Roland keeps boasting of the high original launch price of
his ancient phone, but is remarkably coy about its specification.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tsvmf5$olpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:37 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20/02/2023 06:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know how to
>>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's phones
>>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>>
>>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>>> 9 (wherein it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good*
>>>>> system-wide gesture support until Android 10, at which point they'd
>>>>> ditched what they did in v9 and essentially just copied what
>>>>> Samsung had been doing for a few years. Since then, it's been
>>>>> pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first to drop the
>>>>> dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones, and
>>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>>
>>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>>
>>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>>> example) were the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on) launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to have gesture support.
>>>>
>>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>>> issue.
>>>>
>>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>>> even in Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just
>>>>> needs to find the manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>>
>>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>>
>>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>>
>>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>>
>>> Simple answer, get yourself an iPhone, it just works.
>>
>> My Android phone mostly just works, as do those of most of the other
>> posters here; there’s something about Roland’s that’s different.
>
> The essential difference (as mentioned earlier) is that it's running
> Android 7. …

[splutter] Then you should rid yourself of it ASAP. Getting any kind of up
to date support for it will be impossible and any security holes revealed
in the last 4-5 years will remain unpatched. Do us all a favour and forget
it.

> … The phone itself (like pretty much every other one I've had
> since Nokia proprietary ones) *doesn't have* a manual that describes how
> the OS works, let alone individual (even bundled) apps.
>
> And online resources aren't much help either, because they are often
> poorly written and describe something not-quite-like what's on the
> screen in front of you.
>
> Last week I was installing an app for a security …

Security, on an insecure platform. Right.

> … camera, and the version
> of the App I downloaded - using the QR code they provided with the
> hardware - was significantly different to what the rather slim manual
> with the camera described. They'd not only renamed/arranged the menus
> for example, but some of the keywords had changed *including* the
> descriptions of the hardware.
>
> Does Apple have a UI-police to ensure Apps for their platform are more
> consistent/stable?
>
> Last weekend's task was to find an App to turn my phone into a remote
> control for a Fire Stick (a popular TV streaming device M'lud). But so
> far the one I was pushed towards turns out to be for a Fire TV[1]
> instead, and doesn't pair as claimed. So further investigation is
> required. Again, I doubt the manual for the phone will be of any
> assistance.
>
> [1] Or Fire TV Recast/Fire TV Blaster

For goodness’ sake, just get an up to date phone!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20/03/2023 08:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tsv671$mkb6$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:07:13 on Mon, 20 Feb
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2b57$ke9h$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:43 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 9 Feb 2023 at 8:33:11 AM EET, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <trqoes$32dj1$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:40 on Mon, 6 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are you continuing to flog this dead horse argument? I know
>>>>>>> how to
>>>>>>> use the phones, but I can't access a facility that simply doesn't
>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yes, for the umpteenth time, "Swipe up" does *NOTHING* on my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don't you configure it to do something useful then?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no user-configurable option to achieve that. Odd you should
>>>>> still be under the misapprehension there might be.
>>>>
>>>> This, at least, might well be true, given how ancient Roland's
>>>> phones are.
>>>
>>> Pinned down a week ago (but I'm still catching up on some old threads)
>>> as dating to May 2021.
>>>
>>>> Android didn't really get system-wide gesture support until Android
>>>> 9 (wherein
>>>> it was half-baked and awful), and didn't get *good* system-wide gesture
>>>> support until Android 10, at which point they'd ditched what they
>>>> did in v9
>>>> and essentially just copied what Samsung had been doing for a few
>>>> years.
>>>> Since then, it's been pretty much unchanged. (Samsung were the first
>>>> to drop
>>>> the dedicated apps/home/back buttons to move to "all screen" phones,
>>>> and
>>>> introduced gesture support at around the same time as part of the
>>>> 'replacement' of physical buttons.)
>>>
>>> My wife's new Moto phone (the previous approx two year old one expired
>>> with a duff battery, but also broken screen), and which only arrived
>>> since this subthread thread began, has dropped those three buttons and
>>> she *hates* it. Of course, it has the swipe-up.
>>>
>>>> Given that the Android 6 generation (Samsung Galaxy S7 being an
>>>> example) were  the last to have physical buttons, and the all-glass
>>>> generation (Galaxy S8 on)  launched with Android 7, it's quite
>>>> likely even Roland's Samsung is too old to  have gesture support.
>>>
>>> The Samsung is my work phone, so not my problem. It dates to November
>>> 2021. However I literally only have two third party apps (and only use
>>> three or four bundled ones like Phone), so searching for them isn't an
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>> However, search for an app very much is a facility that does exist,
>>>> even in
>>>> Android 6, as I've demonstrated elsewhere. Roland just needs to find
>>>> the
>>>> manual for his phone to learn how to use it.
>>>
>>> The facility you mentioned iirc is a work-around, where you re-run a
>>> query to the cloud-based app-store and it says "In the list of choices
>>> I'm offering you now, I have a note here which says you should have
>>> <<this one>> already installed. Of course, the app may have been
>>> uninstalled locally. Anyway, it then takes you to the page in the app
>>> store, where there's an "Open" button.
>>>
>>> What's more of a puzzle is why the manual which came with the phone
>>> would have hints-and-tips (or even anything at all) in it, regarding use
>>> of the app-store. Or even gestures. Part of the problem being these are
>>> a feature of Android, and morph all the time, so printing something to
>>> ship with the phone is a hostage to fortune.
>>>
>>> Even something as simple as the app-store changes. I've just noticed
>>> that it no longer has (nor can I find by poking around) a collection of
>>> "My Apps", which I think used to be sorted roughly in reverse
>>> chronological order of first installation, and one way to remind oneself
>>> of a recently forgotten name; also to assist restoring those apps which
>>> "new phone swap" software inevitably loses track of several.
>>
>> You’ve yet to tell us the make and model of your apparently un searchable
>> phone.
>
> [Still playing catch-up]
>
> It's not relevant. All you need to know is it's a well known brand, not
> a Samsung, had a launch price of £650[1], and is running Android 7.

It IS relevant. I have two Android devices and they use different ways
to search for an app. One is flick up and the other is a long press.

>
> Anyway, it's now searchable because I found an App which does that.
> Although that requires one to remember the stupid marketing name of the
> gadget whose app you are looking for. (eg "Starship" for the CoOp's
> robot home delivery service)
>
> [1] Apparently some people think the only important thing about a phone
>     is the reflected glory, rather than its specification.
>
>> Most of the alleged problems you encounter with Android would go away if
>> you used an iPhone.
>
> I've used iPhones in the past, but have my reasons for not using them
> now. I hear people complaining about potholes in Fen roads, a problem
> which would go away if they bought a decent SUV.