Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 12/02/2023 10:08, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/02/2023 09:46, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts8n8e$1fuge$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:02 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts571q$114o1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:42:02 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 06:10:05 +0000
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ts387r$no0j$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:50:04 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Oh come come. Did the CPC have an composite out, RS423, analogue
>>>>>>>>>> input port, and optional econet port? Plus the BBC had proper
>>>>>>>>>> ports for the printer and floppy disk, not just el-cheapo Sinclair
>>>>>>>>>> style motherboard output tracks which were just asking to be shorted out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Econet was a flop, as even their fanzine sites admit; and while it had a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Probably ahead of its time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> diversity of built-in ports the question was: did they give value for
>>>>>>>>> money if shipped to everyone whether they needed them or not? How many
>>>>>>>>> home users actually required things like an analogue input.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many home Amstrad users really needed a monitor when they probably had a
>>>>>>>> perfectly good TV they could have used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The child didn't, only the family had one (in the living room). It was
>>>>>>> avoiding the need to crawl around to connect that up, then monopolise,
>>>>>>> which was one of the main the attractions of the CPC concept.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And if the monitor died they were a bit stuffed using a non amstrad
>>>>>>>> replacement due to the built in RGB connector cable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The RGB connector was cunningly designed to be <<drum roll>> compatible
>>>>>>> with the BBC micro. So whatever BBC micro users would have (and often
>>>>>>> they cost more than a whole CPC) would be fine. On the other hand, the
>>>>>>> failure of the monitor was very unusual. Like the 14" colour TV it was
>>>>>>> based on, they tended to last for years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And being based on a colour TV they would have been relatively low quality,
>>>>>> both in the tube and dot pitch and in the driving electronics which likely
>>>>>> had a sharp low pass filter at around 5 MHz. That made high contrast
>>>>>> pixel-based images such as text not as sharp as they might have been.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you wanted sharper, then buy a "professional" monitor. Only £200
>>>>> perhaps (£600 in today's money). In any event a dedicated RGB monitor
>>>>> is always going to be sharper than the same size TV driven via a UHF
>>>>> modulator.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember hitting this issue when looking at processing ultrasound
>>>>>> images at around the time the BBC came out, and looking for suitable
>>>>>> monitors for both text and image work: “Oh, look, the popularity of
>>>>>> home computers means there are cheap monitors!” “Oh, they’re
>>>>>> cheap because they’re based on colour TV tubes…”
>>>>>
>>>>> At home I had an extremely expensive Sony "separates" TV system (27"
>>>>> Profeel). The tuner and Teletext decoder were in set-top boxes and the
>>>>> idea was you could upgrade just those, if some new features became
>>>>> popular.
>>>>
>>>> Snap! I bought one of those, too.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately they never did produce v2 of those set-top boxes. If
>>>>> they'd had a picture-in-picture one, I would probably have bought it.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I too was disappointed that they never followed up with upgraded
>>>> components.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the monitor lasted about 20yrs (with 3rd party SCART set-top
>>>>> boxes), and I only got rid of it because it was a bit big and heavy by
>>>>> modern standards.
>>>>
>>>> Mine failed on me disappointingly quickly, so I replaced it with a 29"
>>>> Toshiba conventional telly, which worked perfectly till I replaced it with
>>>> a 46" flat screen Samsung with 3D features. Like most people, I didn't take
>>>> to 3D TV, and hated the powered, paired glasses you had to wear. I soon
>>>> abandoned that feature, and, in any case, 3D TV wasn't broadcast for long
>>>> in the UK.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 3D goes in roughly 30 year cycles,[1] so expect it to come back into
>>> fashion in about 20 years or so.
>>>
>>> [1] 30 years is about the time for a new generation of whizz-kids to
>>> forget how crap it was and decide it is the next must-have. This has
>>> been going on since the 19th century.
>>
>> Like wars, then.
>>
>
> That's too accurate to be funny!

It’s not my observation and it’s not meant to be funny, alas.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 12/02/2023 10:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/02/2023 09:46, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ts8n8e$1fuge$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:02 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ts571q$114o1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:42:02 on Fri, 10 Feb
>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 06:10:05 +0000
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ts387r$no0j$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:50:04 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Oh come come. Did the CPC have an composite out, RS423, analogue
>>>>>>>>>> input port, and optional econet port? Plus the BBC had proper
>>>>>>>>>> ports for the printer and floppy disk, not just el-cheapo Sinclair
>>>>>>>>>> style motherboard output tracks which were just asking to be shorted out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Econet was a flop, as even their fanzine sites admit; and while it had a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Probably ahead of its time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> diversity of built-in ports the question was: did they give value for
>>>>>>>>> money if shipped to everyone whether they needed them or not? How many
>>>>>>>>> home users actually required things like an analogue input.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many home Amstrad users really needed a monitor when they probably had a
>>>>>>>> perfectly good TV they could have used?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The child didn't, only the family had one (in the living room). It was
>>>>>>> avoiding the need to crawl around to connect that up, then monopolise,
>>>>>>> which was one of the main the attractions of the CPC concept.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And if the monitor died they were a bit stuffed using a non amstrad
>>>>>>>> replacement due to the built in RGB connector cable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The RGB connector was cunningly designed to be <<drum roll>> compatible
>>>>>>> with the BBC micro. So whatever BBC micro users would have (and often
>>>>>>> they cost more than a whole CPC) would be fine. On the other hand, the
>>>>>>> failure of the monitor was very unusual. Like the 14" colour TV it was
>>>>>>> based on, they tended to last for years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And being based on a colour TV they would have been relatively low quality,
>>>>>> both in the tube and dot pitch and in the driving electronics which likely
>>>>>> had a sharp low pass filter at around 5 MHz. That made high contrast
>>>>>> pixel-based images such as text not as sharp as they might have been.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you wanted sharper, then buy a "professional" monitor. Only £200
>>>>> perhaps (£600 in today's money). In any event a dedicated RGB monitor
>>>>> is always going to be sharper than the same size TV driven via a UHF
>>>>> modulator.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember hitting this issue when looking at processing ultrasound
>>>>>> images at around the time the BBC came out, and looking for suitable
>>>>>> monitors for both text and image work: “Oh, look, the popularity of
>>>>>> home computers means there are cheap monitors!” “Oh, they’re
>>>>>> cheap because they’re based on colour TV tubes…”
>>>>>
>>>>> At home I had an extremely expensive Sony "separates" TV system (27"
>>>>> Profeel). The tuner and Teletext decoder were in set-top boxes and the
>>>>> idea was you could upgrade just those, if some new features became
>>>>> popular.
>>>>
>>>> Snap! I bought one of those, too.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately they never did produce v2 of those set-top boxes. If
>>>>> they'd had a picture-in-picture one, I would probably have bought it.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I too was disappointed that they never followed up with upgraded
>>>> components.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the monitor lasted about 20yrs (with 3rd party SCART set-top
>>>>> boxes), and I only got rid of it because it was a bit big and heavy by
>>>>> modern standards.
>>>>
>>>> Mine failed on me disappointingly quickly, so I replaced it with a 29"
>>>> Toshiba conventional telly, which worked perfectly till I replaced it with
>>>> a 46" flat screen Samsung with 3D features. Like most people, I didn't take
>>>> to 3D TV, and hated the powered, paired glasses you had to wear. I soon
>>>> abandoned that feature, and, in any case, 3D TV wasn't broadcast for long
>>>> in the UK.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 3D goes in roughly 30 year cycles,[1] so expect it to come back into
>>> fashion in about 20 years or so.
>>
>> I've not tried the VR headsets that Zuckerberg thinks we'll all soon be
>> wearing — do they present a 3D simulated view of the Metaverse?
>>
>>>
>>> [1] 30 years is about the time for a new generation of whizz-kids to
>>> forget how crap it was and decide it is the next must-have. This has
>>> been going on since the 19th century.
>>
>> Perhaps the cycle has accelerated this time round, thanks to VR?
>>
>
> VR has the same problem as conventional 3D, the headset. Has a certain
> very limited application which will always appeal to a niche audience
> but the restrictions imposed will militate against widespread acceptance.

Yes, that's what I'd have thought, but Meta and others have invested tens
of billions into it. They must see something that we can't.

https://mixed-news.com/en/this-is-how-much-meta-is-investing-in-vr-ar-and-horizon/

>
> For instance I can see Anna donning a VR headset for an enhanced route
> learning exercise.

Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?

On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?

If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
so what is gained?

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>
>
> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
> so what is gained?
>

No, as I said, the remote drivers would only be needed if the automatic
vehicle's computers get flummoxed. So, most of the time, the vehicles would
go about their business automatically, without a dedicated VR driver at
base. A small number of remote drivers would provide assistance to a large
fleet.

On 12 Feb 2023 at 1:01:58 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>
>
> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
> so what is gained?

Only if all the trains get flummoxed simultaneously. Otherwise you only need
enough drivers back at base to cover for the maximum number of simultaneously
flummoxed trains one might reasonably expect.

Actually, I just like to say flummoxed.

https://imgur.com/G4IFJq6

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2023 at 1:01:58 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>
>>
>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>> so what is gained?
>
> Only if all the trains get flummoxed simultaneously. Otherwise you only need
> enough drivers back at base to cover for the maximum number of simultaneously
> flummoxed trains one might reasonably expect.
>
> Actually, I just like to say flummoxed.
>
> https://imgur.com/G4IFJq6
>

Meta and co might have to un bet the farm on this VR lark. My son, who
works for a major US industry in the UK went on a company sponsored trial
of this stuff, free top of the range headset etc. After two sessions they
all decided to give up on it and the headset lies gathering dust. This is a
company whose staff heavily use Teams and are very familiar with remote
meetings across the globe. Other than niche use, I don’t think it answers
any needs of business.

In message <ts8gbu$1f5fn$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:39:26 on Sat, 11 Feb
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:34:23 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <ts7pcg$1cps4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:12 on Sat, 11 Feb
>>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Worked for almost every other home micro and console at the time.
>>
>>Only for the people for whom it worked. The rest Dad said "Over my dead
>>body".
>
>Certainly there was barganing when I wanted to use my ZX81 :)
>
>>>>failure of the monitor was very unusual. Like the 14" colour TV it was
>>>>based on, they tended to last for years.
>>>
>>>I thought you said it was a "digital" monitor.
>>
>>Yes, and 99% of the insides was the same as that TV.
>
>I doubt many early 80s portables were digital inside except for maybe a
>teletext decoder but they were generally reserved for bigger sets.

Even a TV with a teletext decoder had the same scan coils, electron
guns, etc as one without. Most faults would be associated with the
line-output transformer, and that was the kind of "insides" I refer to.

>>>Oh very simple for a kid. Far easier than just plugging in a different
>>>cassette deck.
>>
>>How many kids would even have a selection of crummy audio cassette
>>players to try?
>
>None. But mum and dad might.

I think we are losing sight of the extremely limited need to replace the
cassette deck.

>>>That doesn't surprise me as you seem to think Amstrad hardware was borderline
>>>perfect.
>>
>>Not at all. I've always said it was extremely good value for money.
>
>Yes, it was. But it had its flaws too.

Nothing is perfect, even a BBC Micro or Amiga. The CPC, however, was
more suited to the uses and the pocket of a wide section of the public.

To that extent we can say the Ford Escort was the "better" vehicle in
the 80's, even though my company car was an Astra GTE. The later had
flaws, iirc the wide front tyres had a habit of fouling on the wheel
aches; but the hatchback was a bit of a Tardis and big enough for four
colour TVs in their boxes, which was handy.

At the time a spectator sport would be watching punters in the car park
at Currys or Comet failing to get even one of their latest purchase into
the boot or rear seats of their saloon car.

>>If you paid twice as much you might get something a little better, but
>>on balance people who didn't have twice as much money were happy with
>>what they got.
>
>Admittedly 3 years after the CPC, but in 1987 you could get an Amiga for
>500 quid which was considerably more than a "little better". It blew every
>other home computer other than the ST out of the water.

That didn't make any less of a niche product, and the £500 was the entry
level model. Remember, I'm not saying there was anything particularly
wrong with the technology, but it was a bit expensive, even for 1987, as
essentially games machine (the more expensive general purpose models
gained less traction).

>Incidentaly, what was the deal with the GX4000? Why did Sugar think anyone
>would buy a console version of the CPC?

That was after my time - my only input was to do with the anti-piracy
technology for the cartridges. My view is probably that if the people in
charge of that side of the business then, had put as much effort into a
launch-catalogue of games as we had with the 464, it might have been
better accepted.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 11:43:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 12 Feb 2023 at 1:01:58 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>> so what is gained?
>>
>> Only if all the trains get flummoxed simultaneously. Otherwise you only need
>> enough drivers back at base to cover for the maximum number of simultaneously
>> flummoxed trains one might reasonably expect.
>>
>> Actually, I just like to say flummoxed.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/G4IFJq6
>>
>
>Meta and co might have to un bet the farm on this VR lark. My son, who
>works for a major US industry in the UK went on a company sponsored trial
>of this stuff, free top of the range headset etc. After two sessions they
>all decided to give up on it and the headset lies gathering dust. This is a
>company whose staff heavily use Teams and are very familiar with remote
>meetings across the globe. Other than niche use, I don’t think it answers
>any needs of business.

Yes, I feel the same way, but Meta and co seem to be convinced of its future popularity. They've certainly made enormous
investments in that area.

On 12/02/2023 11:01, MB wrote:
> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including
>> trains)
>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>
>
> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
> so what is gained?

You only need a driver when the computer says "sod it I can't cope", and
stops the vehicle.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 12/02/2023 11:43, Tweed wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 12 Feb 2023 at 1:01:58 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>> so what is gained?
>>
>> Only if all the trains get flummoxed simultaneously. Otherwise you only need
>> enough drivers back at base to cover for the maximum number of simultaneously
>> flummoxed trains one might reasonably expect.
>>
>> Actually, I just like to say flummoxed.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/G4IFJq6
>>
>
> Meta and co might have to un bet the farm on this VR lark. My son, who
> works for a major US industry in the UK went on a company sponsored trial
> of this stuff, free top of the range headset etc. After two sessions they
> all decided to give up on it and the headset lies gathering dust. This is a
> company whose staff heavily use Teams and are very familiar with remote
> meetings across the globe. Other than niche use, I don’t think it answers
> any needs of business.

I don't think Meta are looking at business but at people who can only
live, and play, in a virtual world.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:46:11 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> At home I had an extremely expensive Sony "separates" TV system (27"
>> Profeel). The tuner and Teletext decoder were in set-top boxes and the
>> idea was you could upgrade just those, if some new features became
>> popular.
>
>Snap! I bought one of those, too.

Sounds about as sensible as seperate CD transports for the audiophool
market - paying over the odds for a drive in an otherwise empty box.

>Yes, I too was disappointed that they never followed up with upgraded
>components.

Got your money though didn't they :) Job done.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:56:13 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 12/02/2023 09:46, Recliner wrote:
>> Mine failed on me disappointingly quickly, so I replaced it with a 29"
>> Toshiba conventional telly, which worked perfectly till I replaced it with
>> a 46" flat screen Samsung with 3D features. Like most people, I didn't take
>> to 3D TV, and hated the powered, paired glasses you had to wear. I soon
>> abandoned that feature, and, in any case, 3D TV wasn't broadcast for long
>> in the UK.
>>
>
>3D goes in roughly 30 year cycles,[1] so expect it to come back into
>fashion in about 20 years or so.
>
>[1] 30 years is about the time for a new generation of whizz-kids to
>forget how crap it was and decide it is the next must-have. This has
>been going on since the 19th century.

Its technically possible now to do "proper" glasses free 3D right now by having
a spinning rotor inside a box with laser projection onto it. It seemed to
be around 5 years ago or so but I guess the noise was irritating.

However the technology to have a transparent cube of some material that
emits visible light where 2 infrared or UV laser beams cross and so pass some
critical heating or excitation threshold must be feasible I would have thought.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 10:22:42 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 12/02/2023 10:12, Recliner wrote:
>> Perhaps the cycle has accelerated this time round, thanks to VR?
>>
>
>VR has the same problem as conventional 3D, the headset. Has a certain
>very limited application which will always appeal to a niche audience
>but the restrictions imposed will militate against widespread acceptance.

Me and some mates tried out Virtuality headsets at the long gone Legend Quest
centre in Nottingham back in 92 or 93. The headsets haven't got appreciably
smaller since then. 3D effect was quite good.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 12:11:07 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <ts8gbu$1f5fn$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:39:26 on Sat, 11 Feb
>2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>I doubt many early 80s portables were digital inside except for maybe a
>>teletext decoder but they were generally reserved for bigger sets.
>
>Even a TV with a teletext decoder had the same scan coils, electron
>guns, etc as one without. Most faults would be associated with the
>line-output transformer, and that was the kind of "insides" I refer to.

Doesn't make then digital.

>At the time a spectator sport would be watching punters in the car park
>at Currys or Comet failing to get even one of their latest purchase into
>the boot or rear seats of their saloon car.

You'd be doing well to physically carry a CRT TV more than about 20 inchs
never mind get it to the car.

>>Incidentaly, what was the deal with the GX4000? Why did Sugar think anyone
>>would buy a console version of the CPC?
>
>That was after my time - my only input was to do with the anti-piracy
>technology for the cartridges. My view is probably that if the people in
>charge of that side of the business then, had put as much effort into a
>launch-catalogue of games as we had with the 464, it might have been
>better accepted.

Would have needed more than that. The graphics were risible compared to
the Sega Megadrive which came out 2 years earlier. But I guess even Sugar
cocked up occasionally.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 10/02/2023 17:07, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> There’s a whole complex up there: Coulport, Faslane, Glen Douglas, Loch
>> Striven. It’s a sort-of shame that the Scottish Government is so
>> definitively anti-nuclear - we could make a good living from leasing those
>> bases back to rUK.
>
>
> Yes, that is a very large number of jobs that would be lost.
>
> I doubt that the UK government would want to lease them from a hostile
> Scottish regime.

Why would the Scottish regime (now there’s an interesting choice of word)
be hostile? It’s largely the UK government who’s hostile to an amicable
separation.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts5lqd$12o25$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:54:05 on Fri, 10 Feb
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ts2stm$mb67$3@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:54 on Thu, 9 Feb
>>> 2023, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>>> On 09/02/2023 12:00, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> [1] Yes, it’s taken a while and it’s not finished yet. I
>>>>> don’t see any
>>>>> reason for it to come to that extreme. Maybe Czechia and Slovakia would be
>>>>> a better example but I don’t know what the relationship is
>>>>> currently like.
>>>>> I probably wouldn’t want to use Yugoslavia as a model.
>>>>
>>>> There was a report on recently on the anniversary of the Czechia /
>>>> Slovakia split and it was said to have been very amicable.
>>>>
>>>> I think the danger if there is partition of Scotland is from the
>>>> Scottish side. I can't see any official restrictions from England
>>>> though I think that with all the bitterness there has been from the
>>>> SNP, people might avoid Scottish products in the shops like some avoid
>>>> anything from Southern Ireland.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully the SNP might collapse or at least they might move back from
>>>> wanting partition. Sturgeon does seem to be Dead (Wo)Man Walking.
>>>>
>>>> I do hope that if they do go ahead then they should pay the full cost.
>>>> It is going to be expensive to split many functions that have been
>>>> combined and shared for years.
>>>
>>> Just like the UK is having to recreate many functions that we once
>>> shared with the EU. The medicines approvals agency was the first to get
>>> some exposure, but probably only because the EU one used to be located
>>> in the UK and had to relocate to the mainland. Taking its revenue stream
>>> with them of course.
>>>
>>>> So the whole cost of that should be paid by Scotland.
>>>
>>> The British public is paying for Brexit.
>>
>> You’re agreeing the Scotland should pay the upfront costs, or that it would
>> end up facing the same kind of consequential costs that the UK is currently
>> shouldering?
>
> Both. The former is like the UK's Divorce Payment (much swept under the
> carpet, but round £35bn is latest estimate - quick, someone paint
> *that* on the side of a bus); the latter the consequence of having to
> build some new (to Scotland) government departments and agencies from
> scratch.

But the Divorce Settlement with the EU is to cover ongoing payments the UK
had already committed to. It’s not clear that Scotland would be liable to
any such, given how it’s usually pictured as a drain on the UK economy.
IIUC international convention is that successor states do not inherit any
of the continuing state’s national debt, so Scotland would be in a good
position to run up its own national debt at that point (and most economists
seem to think that goverment debt is a good thing!). I agree there would
need to be some new government infrastructure.

Sam

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Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ts3ijc$p0q1$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:52 on Thu, 9 Feb
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> The first user to buy *my* phone, was me. Looking at the photos I took,
>>> I'm reminded that the first outing was as a teller on Saturday May 8th
>>> 2021 [second day, after the Thursday vote; PCC and Mayor, on the Friday
>>> we counted the councillors], as a plane buff you can perhaps identify
>>> the location:
>>>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Election_2021.jpg
>>
>> something with the word Concorde on it, but I don’t think it’s a Concorde
>
> That's where you'd be wrong. It was the hardest bit to get in frame,
> because it only just fits between other stuff in the sight-line, and we
> weren't allowed to wander around to get a better framing.

Yes, I realise that now. I had forgotten the tail wording on one of the
prototypes and at least one of the preproduction examples.

>> and there’s a missile I don’t recognise at the far left.
>
> Out of shot to the left is a Polaris missile, which is much fatter.

Wild.

Sam

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Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 11:43:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12 Feb 2023 at 1:01:58 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>>> so what is gained?
>>>
>>> Only if all the trains get flummoxed simultaneously. Otherwise you only need
>>> enough drivers back at base to cover for the maximum number of simultaneously
>>> flummoxed trains one might reasonably expect.
>>>
>>> Actually, I just like to say flummoxed.
>>>
>>> https://imgur.com/G4IFJq6
>>>
>>
>> Meta and co might have to un bet the farm on this VR lark. My son, who
>> works for a major US industry in the UK went on a company sponsored trial
>> of this stuff, free top of the range headset etc. After two sessions they
>> all decided to give up on it and the headset lies gathering dust. This is a
>> company whose staff heavily use Teams and are very familiar with remote
>> meetings across the globe. Other than niche use, I don’t think it answers
>> any needs of business.
>
> Yes, I feel the same way, but Meta and co seem to be convinced of its
> future popularity. They've certainly made enormous
> investments in that area.
>

Trouble is their decisions are made by one person. Even their own employees
are have to be threatened into using it internally.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 12/02/2023 11:43, Tweed wrote:
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 12 Feb 2023 at 1:01:58 PM EET, "MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/02/2023 10:32, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Yes, very likely. And perhaps future driverless vehicles (including trains)
>>>>> will be fitted with the cameras that allow a driver back at base to take
>>>>> over in VR if the driving computers get flummoxed?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are using VR heasdsets then you still need one 'driver' per train
>>>> so what is gained?
>>>
>>> Only if all the trains get flummoxed simultaneously. Otherwise you only need
>>> enough drivers back at base to cover for the maximum number of simultaneously
>>> flummoxed trains one might reasonably expect.
>>>
>>> Actually, I just like to say flummoxed.
>>>
>>> https://imgur.com/G4IFJq6
>>>
>>
>> Meta and co might have to un bet the farm on this VR lark. My son, who
>> works for a major US industry in the UK went on a company sponsored trial
>> of this stuff, free top of the range headset etc. After two sessions they
>> all decided to give up on it and the headset lies gathering dust. This is a
>> company whose staff heavily use Teams and are very familiar with remote
>> meetings across the globe. Other than niche use, I don’t think it answers
>> any needs of business.
>
> I don't think Meta are looking at business but at people who can only
> live, and play, in a virtual world.

The electronic games manufacturers will run rings round them in the leisure
world.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <mfcqZfemL45jFArA@perry.uk>, at 11:58:30 on Sat, 11 Feb 2023,
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>> In message <ts3ijc$p0q1$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:46:52 on Thu, 9 Feb
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The first user to buy *my* phone, was me. Looking at the photos I took,
>>>> I'm reminded that the first outing was as a teller on Saturday May 8th
>>>> 2021 [second day, after the Thursday vote; PCC and Mayor, on the Friday
>>>> we counted the councillors], as a plane buff you can perhaps identify
>>>> the location:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Election_2021.jpg
>>>
>>> something with the word Concorde on it, but I don’t think it’s a Concorde
>>
>> That's where you'd be wrong. It was the hardest bit to get in frame,
>> because it only just fits between other stuff in the sight-line, and we
>> weren't allowed to wander around to get a better framing.
>>
>>> and there’s a missile I don’t recognise at the far left.
>>
>> Out of shot to the left is a Polaris missile, which is much fatter.
>
> And talking of being out of shot, I spent much of the time sitting at a
> table looking like the one very bottom left (but the year before, and I
> don't think the fighter plane was there)...
>
> <https://www.scambs.gov.uk/elections-results-from-south-cambridgeshire-
> district-council/>

The fighter plane being the DH9?

> Got roped in because I knew someone who was working for SCDC at the
> time, and they were very short of volunteers, not least because of all
> the Covid restrictions (and we weren't allowed any food and drink
> inside, for reasons I never fully understood; it was a case of "bring a
> picnic, but you have to eat it standing in the wind and rain in the car
> park").

Yes, I have a friend who is one of the elections team here and he was
looking for volunteers, but 14+ hours without proper refreshment breaks
seemed a little excessive.

Sam

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Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 08/02/2023 16:21, MB wrote:
>>>>>> On 02/02/2023 12:06, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> And then a Shetlandic speaker threw a spanner in the works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have mentioned before, some friends' children would something go into
>>>>>> really thick Buchan if they wanted to annoy you!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Years ago I worked around Aberdeen several times and people would often
>>>>>> ask if I could understand the but I never had any problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Round here children talk in Welsh when they don't want adults to know
>>>>> what they're talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't necessarily work so well in North and Mid Wales as it does in
>>>> South Wales ;)
>>>
>>> West Wales, really - anywhere west of Gorseinon, said my friend from
>>> Gorseinon.
>>
>> Looking back that was a really unintelligible comment. I meant it wouldn’t
>> work in West Wales either.
>>
>
> Last year I stayed in Tenby with friends - very English-speaking. But one
> day we drove 36 miles to the National Wool Museum
> <https://maps.app.goo.gl/woJU9mdiGZgJ6SFY6>, and the ladies working in the
> cafe were speaking Welsh to each other.

Yes - south of the Haven is Little England Beyond Wales. My grandfather
was from Pembroke Dock and I remember his sister-in-law, who lived in
Tenby, being amused that they’d had to invent a Welsh name for the town
just to put on the road signs.

> When I wrote my post, I was thinking more about Llandudno and the
> surrounding area, where I grew up. My parents spoke no Welsh, but I learned
> it in school; my sister and her husband both can speak Welsh but it's not
> the language of the household. My niece is learning Welsh at school. I dare
> say that their household isn't unusual - anyone of a certain age who went
> to school in the area will have learned Welsh.

We lived in Cardiff for a number of years and most of the Welsh speakers we
came across were from north west Wales, yr Wyddfa and Ynys Môn, or from
west Wales, or they were adults who had to learn it for jobs in media or
government. School children learned it like I learned French.

Sam

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<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:46:11 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> At home I had an extremely expensive Sony "separates" TV system (27"
>>> Profeel). The tuner and Teletext decoder were in set-top boxes and the
>>> idea was you could upgrade just those, if some new features became
>>> popular.
>>
>> Snap! I bought one of those, too.
>
> Sounds about as sensible as seperate CD transports for the audiophool
> market - paying over the odds for a drive in an otherwise empty box.

A proper audiophile had:
- a single speed, manual turntable with arm and stylus cartridge made by
other specialist manufacturers
- a tuner
- a pre-amp
- a power amp
- speakers, possibly with separate sub-woofers
- maybe a CD drive
- perhaps some sort of tape or cassette drive

These would be from several different manufacturers.

>
>> Yes, I too was disappointed that they never followed up with upgraded
>> components.
>
> Got your money though didn't they :) Job done.

Yup, it made me a loyal customer of anyone-but-Sony TVs. They could have
made more money selling me upgraded components.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:46:11 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> At home I had an extremely expensive Sony "separates" TV system (27"
>>>> Profeel). The tuner and Teletext decoder were in set-top boxes and the
>>>> idea was you could upgrade just those, if some new features became
>>>> popular.
>>>
>>> Snap! I bought one of those, too.
>>
>> Sounds about as sensible as seperate CD transports for the audiophool
>> market - paying over the odds for a drive in an otherwise empty box.
>
> A proper audiophile had:
> - a single speed, manual turntable with arm and stylus cartridge made by
> other specialist manufacturers
> - a tuner
> - a pre-amp
> - a power amp
> - speakers, possibly with separate sub-woofers
> - maybe a CD drive
> - perhaps some sort of tape or cassette drive
>
> These would be from several different manufacturers.

Oh, and I forgot the very thick gold connection leads.

On 12/02/2023 11:30, Recliner wrote:
> A small number of remote drivers would provide assistance to a large
> fleet.

Not much consolation if (a small number + 1) automatic vehicle's
computers get flummoxed at the same time and you are on that '+1' train.

On 12/02/2023 15:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 09:56:13 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 12/02/2023 09:46, Recliner wrote:
>>> Mine failed on me disappointingly quickly, so I replaced it with a 29"
>>> Toshiba conventional telly, which worked perfectly till I replaced it with
>>> a 46" flat screen Samsung with 3D features. Like most people, I didn't take
>>> to 3D TV, and hated the powered, paired glasses you had to wear. I soon
>>> abandoned that feature, and, in any case, 3D TV wasn't broadcast for long
>>> in the UK.
>>>
>>
>> 3D goes in roughly 30 year cycles,[1] so expect it to come back into
>> fashion in about 20 years or so.
>>
>> [1] 30 years is about the time for a new generation of whizz-kids to
>> forget how crap it was and decide it is the next must-have. This has
>> been going on since the 19th century.
>
> Its technically possible now to do "proper" glasses free 3D right now by having
> a spinning rotor inside a box with laser projection onto it. It seemed to
> be around 5 years ago or so but I guess the noise was irritating.

Definition was atrocious and they were very expensive.

--
Graeme Wall
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