On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> postpoetry
>
>
> although there's nothing left to say
> we're gonna say it anyway
> & if a reader doesn't read
> we'll call him something we don't need
> & if a critic calls it shit
> we won't believe a word of it
> & if a poet points that out
> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> about her frogs and trees and birds
> so we won't have to read her words
>
> or better yet let's write of war
> and fill a page or two with gore
> some reeking flesh a severed head
> & maggots feasting on the dead
> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> motherfucker piss & shit
> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>
> what else to do what else to say
> when everything is mere cliche?
> how else to make a reader feel
> or think that what we say is real?
> of course the whole idea is dumb
> when we're as comfortably numb
> but if we sweat through every motion
> we may feel a real emotion –
> at least it kills an hour or two
> and we have nothing else to do.
>
> ~~
> George J. Dance, 2007
> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015

The quandary, do I firebomb or do I care not at all? This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...

Shouldn't there be commas?
< some reeking flesh a severed head
< what else to do what else to say

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > postpoetry
> >
> >
> > although there's nothing left to say
> > we're gonna say it anyway
> > & if a reader doesn't read
> > we'll call him something we don't need
> > & if a critic calls it shit
> > we won't believe a word of it
> > & if a poet points that out
> > we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > about her frogs and trees and birds
> > so we won't have to read her words
> >
> > or better yet let's write of war
> > and fill a page or two with gore
> > some reeking flesh a severed head
> > & maggots feasting on the dead
> > & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > motherfucker piss & shit
> > (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >
> > what else to do what else to say
> > when everything is mere cliche?
> > how else to make a reader feel
> > or think that what we say is real?
> > of course the whole idea is dumb
> > when we're as comfortably numb
> > but if we sweat through every motion
> > we may feel a real emotion –
> > at least it kills an hour or two
> > and we have nothing else to do.
> >
> > ~~
> > George J. Dance, 2007
> > from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> The quandary, do I firebomb or do I care not at all? This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...

George Dance repeats words and thoughts in his poems, saying the same thing over and over, in more and more lines. We would not have used "comfortably numb," but George did. We didn't like the use of an ampersand in the poem (six times). Lazy writing.
>
> Shouldn't there be commas?

George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.

> < some reeking flesh a severed head
> < what else to do what else to say
Maybe he could have written something that showed talent?

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:38:19 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>
> >> postpoetry
> >>
> >>
> >> although there's nothing left to say
> >> we're gonna say it anyway
> >> & if a reader doesn't read
> >> we'll call him something we don't need
> >> & if a critic calls it shit
> >> we won't believe a word of it
> >> & if a poet points that out
> >> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >> so we won't have to read her words
> >>
> >> or better yet let's write of war
> >> and fill a page or two with gore
> >> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >> motherfucker piss & shit
> >> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>
> >> what else to do what else to say
> >> when everything is mere cliche?
> >> how else to make a reader feel
> >> or think that what we say is real?
> >> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >> when we're as comfortably numb
> >> but if we sweat through every motion
> >> we may feel a real emotion –
> >> at least it kills an hour or two
> >> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>
> >> ~~
> >> George J. Dance, 2007
> >> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >
> > Quite an interesting poem, G.D.
> Thanks, Zod. Let's talk about it.
>
> Did you watch the video Spam-a-Lot posted on "Interpretive Voice" last
> week? In case you missed it, I'll post it here. It's a good explanation
> of one thing I was trying to do in this poem.
>
>
> Identifying and interpreting a poet's voice
> https://youtu.be/_sDW8J7D-kY

Thanks for reposting the link, George, I hope to have time over the weekend to check it out.

🙂

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:58:59 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > postpoetry
> > >
> > >
> > > although there's nothing left to say
> > > we're gonna say it anyway
> > > & if a reader doesn't read
> > > we'll call him something we don't need
> > > & if a critic calls it shit
> > > we won't believe a word of it
> > > & if a poet points that out
> > > we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > > about her frogs and trees and birds
> > > so we won't have to read her words
> > >
> > > or better yet let's write of war
> > > and fill a page or two with gore
> > > some reeking flesh a severed head
> > > & maggots feasting on the dead
> > > & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > > let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > > motherfucker piss & shit
> > > (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> > >
> > > what else to do what else to say
> > > when everything is mere cliche?
> > > how else to make a reader feel
> > > or think that what we say is real?
> > > of course the whole idea is dumb
> > > when we're as comfortably numb
> > > but if we sweat through every motion
> > > we may feel a real emotion –
> > > at least it kills an hour or two
> > > and we have nothing else to do.
> > >
> > > ~~
> > > George J. Dance, 2007
> > > from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> > The quandary, do I firebomb or do I care not at all? This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...
> George Dance repeats words and thoughts in his poems, saying the same thing over and over, in more and more lines. We would not have used "comfortably numb," but George did. We didn't like the use of an ampersand in the poem (six times). Lazy writing.

I figured it was a modern poetry style thing, to each his own and I will do like Pilate...

> >
> > Shouldn't there be commas?
> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> > < some reeking flesh a severed head
> > < what else to do what else to say
> Maybe he could have written something that showed talent?

Ash Wurthing wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> postpoetry
>>
>>
>> although there's nothing left to say
>> we're gonna say it anyway
>> & if a reader doesn't read
>> we'll call him something we don't need
>> & if a critic calls it shit
>> we won't believe a word of it
>> & if a poet points that out
>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>> so we won't have to read her words
>>
>> or better yet let's write of war
>> and fill a page or two with gore
>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>> motherfucker piss & shit
>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>
>> what else to do what else to say
>> when everything is mere cliche?
>> how else to make a reader feel
>> or think that what we say is real?
>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>> when we're as comfortably numb
>> but if we sweat through every motion
>> we may feel a real emotion –
>> at least it kills an hour or two
>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>
>> ~~
>> George J. Dance, 2007
>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015

> This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...

That's a good step towards peace, Ash.

🙂

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:58:59 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > postpoetry
> > >
> > >
> > > although there's nothing left to say
> > > we're gonna say it anyway
> > > & if a reader doesn't read
> > > we'll call him something we don't need
> > > & if a critic calls it shit
> > > we won't believe a word of it
> > > & if a poet points that out
> > > we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > > about her frogs and trees and birds
> > > so we won't have to read her words
> > >
> > > or better yet let's write of war
> > > and fill a page or two with gore
> > > some reeking flesh a severed head
> > > & maggots feasting on the dead
> > > & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > > let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > > motherfucker piss & shit
> > > (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> > >
> > > what else to do what else to say
> > > when everything is mere cliche?
> > > how else to make a reader feel
> > > or think that what we say is real?
> > > of course the whole idea is dumb
> > > when we're as comfortably numb
> > > but if we sweat through every motion
> > > we may feel a real emotion –
> > > at least it kills an hour or two
> > > and we have nothing else to do.
> > >
> > > ~~
> > > George J. Dance, 2007
> > > from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> > The quandary, do I firebomb or do I care not at all? This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...
> George Dance repeats words and thoughts in his poems, saying the same thing over and over, in more and more lines. We would not have used "comfortably numb," but George did. We didn't like the use of an ampersand in the poem (six times). Lazy writing.
> >
> > Shouldn't there be commas?
> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> > < some reeking flesh a severed head
> > < what else to do what else to say
> Maybe he could have written something that showed talent?

George's poem is an attempt at wit. Unfortunately, George thinks he's a whole lot funnier than he actually is.

The problem with George's poem (and with his poetry in general) isn't his lack of commas or punctuation, or even (arguably) repeated thoughts: it's that his thoughts are strictly middle of the road.

Even Will and his Stink's godawful Fragmentist poetry occasionally has an edge to individual portions of its disconnected babble. George's poetry, otoh, makes Hallmark cards seem cutting edge.

Don't get me wrong: George's poetry is always well-crafted and very well thought out (often too thought out). At his best, his poetry makes for a pleasant, and immediately forgotten, read. It's certainly a much more pleasant read than anything by the Donkey and his Stink.

There's just something missing from it. It lacks emotion, inventiveness, metaphor, bite, incisive observation... life of any sort.

Not even the incorporation of obscenities into his verses can infuse them with any hint of iconoclasm or rebelliousness. George's speaker is merely complaining about how others use those obscenities in a failed attempt to prove witty.

The basic idea is a good one: Although there is nothing new to say in poetry, the speaker is going to have his say all the same. If his words actually went on to say something new -- while skewering modern poetry in the process -- this might have been an instant classic.

But George really does have nothing left to say, and his poem makes some common observations and common complaints about poetry (and poetry writing) in general, before admitting that the writer is just attempting to pass some time.

George will say that I'm attacking his poetry out of spite. I'm not. I like George's poetry well enough, and I'm not trying to say that it's bad. It isn't. And I hope that George continues to write poetry for AYoS.

But I also feel that someone with George's particular talents should stay as far away from attempted wittiness as possible.

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Quite an interesting poem, G.D.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks, Zod. It's good to see some people still reading poetry here.
> >>>
> >>> I'm reading the poetry but I also see that Senetto is obsessively
> >>> creating Will Dockery troll threads, most of which I don't respond to..
> >>>
> >>> In one of these you're correcting his lies and setting the record
> >>> straight, I appreciate that.
> >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> snip
> >
> > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> asking others on the group if they can help.

I haven't had time yet, perhaps later today.

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> >>>>>> postpoetry
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>> >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>> >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>> >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>> >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>> >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>> >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>> >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>> >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>> >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>> >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>> >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>> >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>> >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>> >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>> >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>> >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>> >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>> >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>> >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>> >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>> >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>> >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>> >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>> >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>> >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ~~
>> >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>> >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Quite an interesting poem, G.D.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Thanks, Zod. It's good to see some people still reading poetry here.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm reading the poetry but I also see that Senetto is obsessively
>> >>> creating Will Dockery troll threads, most of which I don't respond to..
>> >>>
>> >>> In one of these you're correcting his lies and setting the record
>> >>> straight, I appreciate that.
>> >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
>> >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
>> >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
>> >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
>> snip
>> >
>> > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
>> Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
>> asking others on the group if they can help.

> I haven't had time yet, perhaps later today.

I shall have a look...!

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015

<...>

> >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> snip
> >
> > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> asking others on the group if they can help.

Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ

On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
> > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Pendragon wrote in message
> >
> > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
> > > >
> > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
> > > > (let's
> > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
> > > >
> > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level.
> > > >
> > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
> > > > call
> > > > what?
> > > >
> > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
> > > > level
> > > > is she on?
> > > >
> > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
> > > > would
> > > > Sandy's level be named?
> > >
> > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
> > >
> > > 1) Great
> > > 2) Very Good
> > > 3) Good
> > > 4) Pretty Good
> > > 5) Decent
> > > 6) Passable
> > > 7) Mediocre/Average
> > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
> > > 9) Bad
> > > 10) Very Bad
> > > 11) Extremely Bad
> > > 12) Terrible
> > > 13) Horrendous
> > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
> > >
> > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
> > > clarifications:
> > >
> > > 1) Great
> > >
> > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
> > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
> > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
> > > sound, style, and personality.
> > >
> > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
> > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
> > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
> > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
> > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
> > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
> > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
> > > before. That's what makes them great.
> > >
> > > 2) Very Good
> > >
> > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
> > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
> > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
> > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
> > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
> > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
> > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
> > >
> > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites. They
> > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
> > >
> > > 3) Good
> > >
> > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
> > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style. Rosemary
> > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
> > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
> > >
> > > 4) Pretty Good
> > >
> > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
> > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
> > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
> > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
> > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
> > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
> > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
> > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
> > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
> > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
> > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
> > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
> > >
> > > 5) Decent
> > >
> > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
> > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
> > >
> > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
> > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
> > > of it, either.
> > >
> > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
> > >
> > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
> > >
> > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
> > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
> > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
> > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
> > >
> > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
> > >
> > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
> > >
> > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
> > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
> > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
> > >
> > > 8) Bad
> > >
> > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
> > >
> > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
> > >
> > > 9) Very Bad
> > >
> > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
> > >
> > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group. I find the
> > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
> > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
> > >
> > > 10) Extremely Bad
> > >
> > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
> > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
> > >
> > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> > >
> > > 12) Horrendous
> > >
> > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
> > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
> > >
> > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
> > >
> > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
> > > whiny-assed voice.
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Found in the archives, of interest...
> >
> > Interesting........
> The earlier post is, as well:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
>
> "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
> news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
>
> On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
> > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
> > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
> >
> > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
> > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
> > > > >
> > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
> > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
> > > >
> > > > NG...
> > > >
> > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
> > > > statement about Sandy is false.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
> > > > listen, to the work first?
> > >
> > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
> > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
> > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
> >
> > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
> > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
> >
> > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
> > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
> > opinions, NG.
> >
>
> She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
>
> And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased.
>
> I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
> in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
> their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
> not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
> to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
> a solid decent.
>
> Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ....
> on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
> sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
> you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
>
> Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
> talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
> position to judge.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> postpoetry
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ~~
> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> <...>
> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> > snip
> > >
> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> > asking others on the group if they can help.
> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
>
> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
> > >
> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
> > > > >
> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
> > > > > (let's
> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
> > > > >
> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
> > > > > call
> > > > > what?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
> > > > > level
> > > > > is she on?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
> > > > > would
> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
> > > >
> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Great
> > > > 2) Very Good
> > > > 3) Good
> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> > > > 5) Decent
> > > > 6) Passable
> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
> > > > 9) Bad
> > > > 10) Very Bad
> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
> > > > 12) Terrible
> > > > 13) Horrendous
> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
> > > >
> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
> > > > clarifications:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Great
> > > >
> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
> > > > sound, style, and personality.
> > > >
> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
> > > >
> > > > 2) Very Good
> > > >
> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
> > > >
> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
> > > >
> > > > 3) Good
> > > >
> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style. Rosemary
> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
> > > >
> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> > > >
> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
> > > >
> > > > 5) Decent
> > > >
> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
> > > >
> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
> > > > of it, either.
> > > >
> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
> > > >
> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
> > > >
> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
> > > >
> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
> > > >
> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
> > > >
> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
> > > >
> > > > 8) Bad
> > > >
> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
> > > >
> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
> > > >
> > > > 9) Very Bad
> > > >
> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
> > > >
> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group. I find the
> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
> > > >
> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
> > > >
> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
> > > >
> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> > > >
> > > > 12) Horrendous
> > > >
> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
> > > >
> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
> > > >
> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
> > > > whiny-assed voice.
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
> > >
> > > Interesting........
> > The earlier post is, as well:
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
> >
> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
> >
> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
> > >
> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
> > > > >
> > > > > NG...
> > > > >
> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
> > > > > listen, to the work first?
> > > >
> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
> > >
> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
> > >
> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
> > > opinions, NG.
> > >
> >
> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
> >
> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased.
> >
> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
> > a solid decent.
> >
> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
> >
> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
> > position to judge.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
>
> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Quite interesting...!

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
>> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
>> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> postpoetry
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> ~~
>> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>> <...>
>> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
>> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
>> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
>> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
>> > snip
>> > >
>> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
>> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
>> > asking others on the group if they can help.
>> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
>>
>> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
>> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
>> > >
>> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
>> > > > > (let's
>> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
>> > > > > call
>> > > > > what?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
>> > > > > level
>> > > > > is she on?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
>> > > > > would
>> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
>> > > >
>> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
>> > > >
>> > > > 1) Great
>> > > > 2) Very Good
>> > > > 3) Good
>> > > > 4) Pretty Good
>> > > > 5) Decent
>> > > > 6) Passable
>> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
>> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
>> > > > 9) Bad
>> > > > 10) Very Bad
>> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
>> > > > 12) Terrible
>> > > > 13) Horrendous
>> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
>> > > >
>> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
>> > > > clarifications:
>> > > >
>> > > > 1) Great
>> > > >
>> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
>> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
>> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
>> > > > sound, style, and personality.
>> > > >
>> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
>> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
>> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
>> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
>> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
>> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
>> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
>> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
>> > > >
>> > > > 2) Very Good
>> > > >
>> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
>> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
>> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
>> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
>> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
>> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
>> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
>> > > >
>> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
>> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
>> > > >
>> > > > 3) Good
>> > > >
>> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
>> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style. Rosemary
>> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
>> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
>> > > >
>> > > > 4) Pretty Good
>> > > >
>> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
>> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
>> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
>> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
>> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
>> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
>> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
>> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
>> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
>> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
>> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
>> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
>> > > >
>> > > > 5) Decent
>> > > >
>> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
>> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
>> > > >
>> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
>> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
>> > > > of it, either.
>> > > >
>> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
>> > > >
>> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
>> > > >
>> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
>> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
>> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
>> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
>> > > >
>> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
>> > > >
>> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
>> > > >
>> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
>> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
>> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
>> > > >
>> > > > 8) Bad
>> > > >
>> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
>> > > >
>> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
>> > > >
>> > > > 9) Very Bad
>> > > >
>> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
>> > > >
>> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group. I find the
>> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
>> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
>> > > >
>> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
>> > > >
>> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
>> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
>> > > >
>> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
>> > > >
>> > > > 12) Horrendous
>> > > >
>> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
>> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
>> > > >
>> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
>> > > >
>> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
>> > > > whiny-assed voice.
>> > > >
>> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
>> > >
>> > > Interesting........
>> > The earlier post is, as well:
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
>> >
>> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
>> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
>> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
>> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
>> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
>> > >
>> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
>> > >
>> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
>> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
>> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > NG...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
>> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
>> > > > > listen, to the work first?
>> > > >
>> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
>> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
>> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
>> > >
>> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
>> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
>> > >
>> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
>> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
>> > > opinions, NG.
>> > >
>> >
>> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
>> >
>> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased.
>> >
>> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
>> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
>> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
>> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
>> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
>> > a solid decent.
>> >
>> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
>> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
>> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
>> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
>> >
>> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
>> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
>> > position to judge.
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
>>
>> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Quite interesting...!

On 2022-10-20 11:59 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:25:13 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-10-20 10:47 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
>>>>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quite an interesting poem, G.D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, Zod. It's good to see some people still reading poetry here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm reading the poetry but I also see that Senetto is obsessively
>>>>> creating Will Dockery troll threads, most of which I don't respond to.
>>>>>
>>>>> In one of these you're correcting his lies and setting the record
>>>>> straight, I appreciate that.
>>>> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
>>>> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
>>>
>>> Why are you calling me "Monkey," George?
>>>
>> Relax; I'll normally shorten it to "MMP" or "Michael".
>>> I have not called you any such names.
>>>
>> True. But you called Zod a name; and according to you he and I are on
>> the same team. So we're playing Team T4T (TT4T), by your choice.
>
> In which case, such a response on your part can only mean that you consider yourself to be a member of Stink's team.
>

D'uh ... for three weeks now. "Team Donkey," remember?

>>> According to your "ethical" philosophy of "Tit for Tat," you should be treating me as I treat you.
>>>
>> According to my philosophy, sure, because I'm an individualist.
>> But "there's no I in team," as I'm sure you've heard. Teams are
>> collectives, and to be a team player one has to act like a collectivist.
>
> Again, your behavior can only be justified by your perception that you are part of an actual team.
>

I'm playing on a team. So? So are you.

>>> Or have you abandoned your "ethics" for good old fashioned trolling?
>> Only inside the game. It's no different from defending a position or a
>> person, in a debate, that one considers unethical.
>
> IOW: My opinion that you had officially become a part of "Team Donkey" as correct.
>

It's been true for the last three weeks, anyway.

>>>> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
>>>> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
>> Since you're here, Michael: do you remember the thread where you
>> favorably compared Will's music to the Beatles"?
>
> No. I remember placing it on a level with that of the Beatles.
>
> I.e., While I don't particularly care for either of their records, I don't find their music offensive (to my eardrums, not my moral sensibilities).
>

Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted: what you actually said, and the
fact that you said it.

You know that there's a recently-opened thread pretending that Will had
put his music on the same level as the Beatles. Now, thanks to your
help, I can set that part of the record straight.

On 2022-10-21 12:47 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> postpoetry
>>
>>
>> although there's nothing left to say
>> we're gonna say it anyway
>> & if a reader doesn't read
>> we'll call him something we don't need
>> & if a critic calls it shit
>> we won't believe a word of it
>> & if a poet points that out
>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>> so we won't have to read her words
>>
>> or better yet let's write of war
>> and fill a page or two with gore
>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>> motherfucker piss & shit
>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>
>> what else to do what else to say
>> when everything is mere cliche?
>> how else to make a reader feel
>> or think that what we say is real?
>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>> when we're as comfortably numb
>> but if we sweat through every motion
>> we may feel a real emotion –
>> at least it kills an hour or two
>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>
>> ~~
>> George J. Dance, 2007
>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>
> The quandary, do I firebomb or do I care not at all? This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...

There is a third option; contribute to the poetry discussion. I'm not
going to demand you write a critique, the way MMP is demanding it from
Will and Zod, but at least you could show it to "Anon" et al and get me
some feedback.

I won't promise to change "pp", but I will promise to read whatever you
bring me and try to learn from it.

>
> Shouldn't there be commas?
> < some reeking flesh a severed head
> < what else to do what else to say

I wanted to cut all punctuation; it's part of a style I use when I write
in a certain poetic voice -- no caps, numerals for numbers, no
punctuation if possible. I couldn't cut the question marks or the dash,
but the internal commas aren't all that missed; the lines are perfectly
readable without them.

On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>> postpoetry
>>>
>>>
>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>> & if a poet points that out
>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>
>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>
>>> what else to do what else to say
>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>
>>> ~~
>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>
> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.

It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
speaker of the poem needs.

Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
teacher we once had here:

"Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."

On 2022-10-21 5:44 a.m., Robert Burrows wrote:
>
Well, look what the Chimp dragged in.
>
> I'm not sitting here wishing for your death,
> but I do wish you'd learn to hold your breath.
> It's so obnoxious, the dead are awake.
> Your teeth are a hammer, your tongue a snake.
> All of the shit that comes out of your mouth
> smells like it came from the hole that's down south.
>

Thanks for the OB-thing.

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:18:38 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-20 11:59 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:25:13 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-10-20 10:47 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Quite an interesting poem, G.D.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks, Zod. It's good to see some people still reading poetry here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm reading the poetry but I also see that Senetto is obsessively
> >>>>> creating Will Dockery troll threads, most of which I don't respond to.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In one of these you're correcting his lies and setting the record
> >>>>> straight, I appreciate that.
> >>>> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >>>> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >>>
> >>> Why are you calling me "Monkey," George?
> >>>
> >> Relax; I'll normally shorten it to "MMP" or "Michael".
> >>> I have not called you any such names.
> >>>
> >> True. But you called Zod a name; and according to you he and I are on
> >> the same team. So we're playing Team T4T (TT4T), by your choice.
> >
> > In which case, such a response on your part can only mean that you consider yourself to be a member of Stink's team.
> >
> D'uh ... for three weeks now. "Team Donkey," remember?
> >>> According to your "ethical" philosophy of "Tit for Tat," you should be treating me as I treat you.
> >>>
> >> According to my philosophy, sure, because I'm an individualist.
> >> But "there's no I in team," as I'm sure you've heard. Teams are
> >> collectives, and to be a team player one has to act like a collectivist.
> >
> > Again, your behavior can only be justified by your perception that you are part of an actual team.
> >
> I'm playing on a team. So? So are you.

Not at all, George. Your paranoia has finally gotten the better of you.

> >>> Or have you abandoned your "ethics" for good old fashioned trolling?
> >> Only inside the game. It's no different from defending a position or a
> >> person, in a debate, that one considers unethical.
> >
> > IOW: My opinion that you had officially become a part of "Team Donkey" as correct.
> >
> It's been true for the last three weeks, anyway.

If so, you sure picked the wrong side.

> >>>> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >>>> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> >> Since you're here, Michael: do you remember the thread where you
> >> favorably compared Will's music to the Beatles"?
> >
> > No. I remember placing it on a level with that of the Beatles.
> >
> > I.e., While I don't particularly care for either of their records, I don't find their music offensive (to my eardrums, not my moral sensibilities)..
> >
> Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted: what you actually said, and the
> fact that you said it.
>
> You know that there's a recently-opened thread pretending that Will had
> put his music on the same level as the Beatles. Now, thanks to your
> help, I can set that part of the record straight.

Unfortunately (for you), that's how the Donkey actually took it. (See his response, below.)

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:58:06 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> postpoetry
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> ~~
> >> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >> <...>
> >> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> >> > snip
> >> > >
> >> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> >> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> >> > asking others on the group if they can help.
> >> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
> >>
> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >>
> >> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
> >> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
> >> > >
> >> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
> >> > > > > (let's
> >> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level..
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
> >> > > > > call
> >> > > > > what?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
> >> > > > > level
> >> > > > > is she on?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
> >> > > > > would
> >> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> > > > 6) Passable
> >> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
> >> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
> >> > > > 9) Bad
> >> > > > 10) Very Bad
> >> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
> >> > > > 12) Terrible
> >> > > > 13) Horrendous
> >> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
> >> > > > clarifications:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
> >> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
> >> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
> >> > > > sound, style, and personality.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
> >> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
> >> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
> >> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
> >> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
> >> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
> >> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
> >> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
> >> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
> >> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
> >> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
> >> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
> >> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
> >> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
> >> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
> >> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style. Rosemary
> >> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
> >> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
> >> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
> >> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
> >> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
> >> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
> >> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
> >> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
> >> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
> >> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
> >> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
> >> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
> >> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
> >> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
> >> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
> >> > > > of it, either.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
> >> > > >
> >> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
> >> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
> >> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
> >> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
> >> > > >
> >> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
> >> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
> >> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 8) Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 9) Very Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group. I find the
> >> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
> >> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
> >> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 12) Horrendous
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
> >> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
> >> > > > whiny-assed voice.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
> >> > >
> >> > > Interesting........
> >> > The earlier post is, as well:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
> >> >
> >> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
> >> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> >> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
> >> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
> >> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
> >> > >
> >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
> >> > >
> >> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
> >> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
> >> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > NG...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
> >> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
> >> > > > > listen, to the work first?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
> >> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
> >> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
> >> > >
> >> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
> >> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
> >> > >
> >> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
> >> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
> >> > > opinions, NG.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
> >> >
> >> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased.
> >> >
> >> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
> >> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
> >> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
> >> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
> >> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
> >> > a solid decent.
> >> >
> >> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
> >> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
> >> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
> >> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
> >> >
> >> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
> >> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
> >> > position to judge.
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >>
> >> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> Quite interesting...!
> > But do you really think that a rating of "Decent" is complimentary
> Being on the level of The Beatles definitely is.

Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:

> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:58:06 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> >> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> >> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> >> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
>> >> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
>> >> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> postpoetry
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>> >> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>> >> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>> >> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>> >> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>> >> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>> >> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>> >> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>> >> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>> >> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>> >> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>> >> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>> >> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>> >> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>> >> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>> >> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>> >> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>> >> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>> >> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>> >> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>> >> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>> >> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>> >> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>> >> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>> >> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>> >> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>> >> > >>>>>>
>> >> > >>>>>> ~~
>> >> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>> >> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>> >> <...>
>> >> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
>> >> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
>> >> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
>> >> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
>> >> > snip
>> >> > >
>> >> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
>> >> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
>> >> > asking others on the group if they can help.
>> >> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
>> >>
>> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
>> >>
>> >> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
>> >> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
>> >> > > > > (let's
>> >> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level..
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
>> >> > > > > call
>> >> > > > > what?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
>> >> > > > > level
>> >> > > > > is she on?
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
>> >> > > > > would
>> >> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 1) Great
>> >> > > > 2) Very Good
>> >> > > > 3) Good
>> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
>> >> > > > 5) Decent
>> >> > > > 6) Passable
>> >> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
>> >> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
>> >> > > > 9) Bad
>> >> > > > 10) Very Bad
>> >> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
>> >> > > > 12) Terrible
>> >> > > > 13) Horrendous
>> >> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
>> >> > > > clarifications:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 1) Great
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
>> >> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
>> >> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
>> >> > > > sound, style, and personality.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
>> >> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
>> >> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
>> >> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
>> >> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
>> >> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
>> >> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
>> >> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 2) Very Good
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
>> >> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
>> >> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
>> >> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
>> >> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
>> >> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
>> >> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
>> >> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 3) Good
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
>> >> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style. Rosemary
>> >> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
>> >> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
>> >> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
>> >> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
>> >> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
>> >> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
>> >> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category.. Again,
>> >> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
>> >> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
>> >> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
>> >> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
>> >> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
>> >> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 5) Decent
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
>> >> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
>> >> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
>> >> > > > of it, either.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
>> >> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
>> >> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
>> >> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
>> >> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
>> >> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 8) Bad
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 9) Very Bad
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group. I find the
>> >> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
>> >> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
>> >> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 12) Horrendous
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
>> >> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
>> >> > > > whiny-assed voice.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Interesting........
>> >> > The earlier post is, as well:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >
>> >> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
>> >> >
>> >> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
>> >> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
>> >> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
>> >> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
>> >> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
>> >> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
>> >> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > NG...
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
>> >> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
>> >> > > > > listen, to the work first?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
>> >> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
>> >> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
>> >> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
>> >> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
>> >> > > opinions, NG.
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
>> >> >
>> >> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased.
>> >> >
>> >> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
>> >> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
>> >> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
>> >> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
>> >> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
>> >> > a solid decent.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
>> >> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
>> >> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
>> >> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
>> >> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
>> >> > position to judge.
>> >> >
>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
>> >>
>> >> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>
>> >> Quite interesting...!
>> > But do you really think that a rating of "Decent" is complimentary
>> Being on the level of The Beatles definitely is.

On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 11:48:09 PM UTC+10, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> postpoetry
>
>
> although there's nothing left to say
> we're gonna say it anyway
> & if a reader doesn't read
> we'll call him something we don't need
> & if a critic calls it shit
> we won't believe a word of it
> & if a poet points that out
> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> about her frogs and trees and birds
> so we won't have to read her words
>
> or better yet let's write of war
> and fill a page or two with gore
> some reeking flesh a severed head
> & maggots feasting on the dead
> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> motherfucker piss & shit
> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>
> what else to do what else to say
> when everything is mere cliche?
> how else to make a reader feel
> or think that what we say is real?
> of course the whole idea is dumb
> when we're as comfortably numb
> but if we sweat through every motion
> we may feel a real emotion –
> at least it kills an hour or two
> and we have nothing else to do.
>
> ~~
> George J. Dance, 2007
> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015

A good one.

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>> postpoetry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>> & if a poet points that out
> >>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>
> >>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>
> >>> what else to do what else to say
> >>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>
> >>> ~~
> >>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >
> > George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> speaker of the poem needs.

The speaker in your poem is not "a muse." If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem? You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands. Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>
> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> teacher we once had here:
>
> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."
That saying has been used too much here. The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 3:54:56 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:58:06 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:43:08 PM UTC-4, vhug...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 11:29:45 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo..ca wrote:
> >> >> > On 2022-10-20 11:02 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 10:26:43 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> >> > >> On 2022-10-20 9:24 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>>> On 2022-10-19 3:35 p.m., Zod Zodly wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4,
> >> >> > >>>>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> postpoetry
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >> >> > >>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >> >> > >>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >> >> > >>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >> >> > >>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >> >> > >>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >> >> > >>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >> >> > >>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >> >> > >>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >> >> > >>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >> >> > >>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >> >> > >>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >> >> > >>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >> >> > >>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >> >> > >>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >> >> > >>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >> >> > >>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >> >> > >>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >> >> > >>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >> >> > >>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >> >> > >>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >> >> > >>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >> >> > >>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >> >> > >>>>>>
> >> >> > >>>>>> ~~
> >> >> > >>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >> >> > >>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >> >> <...>
> >> >> > >> I also wanted to set the record straight on his "Nelly Black" thread,
> >> >> > >> reminding him that it was Michael Monkey Pendragon who equated your
> >> >> > >> music with the Beatles (with Ms Black's on a lower level). But I haven't
> >> >> > >> found the thread to cite. Perhaps you or Zod could find it for me?
> >> >> > snip
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > You mean Pendragon's thread about Nelly Black, The Beatles, and so on?
> >> >> > Yes, of course, that one. I don't have time to look for it, so I'm
> >> >> > asking others on the group if they can help.
> >> >> Here is the , or one of the, discussions of Doc and The Beatles:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >> >>
> >> >> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 5:03:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Riprock Jr. wrote:
> >> >> > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:22:51 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > > Pendragon wrote in message
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > >> Okay, this is interesting...
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > How many levels, grades or ratings do you have for art, music, poetry
> >> >> > > > > (let's
> >> >> > > > > just lump them all together as "art"), Pendragon?
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > We know that The Beatles and myself rest on the "Decent" level..
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Pat Boone and Tiny Tim are at least one level higher, and that level is
> >> >> > > > > call
> >> >> > > > > what?
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Nelly Black is at least one level lower than The Beatles and me, what
> >> >> > > > > level
> >> >> > > > > is she on?
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Sandy Madaris I reckon you judge as the lowest on the totem pole, what
> >> >> > > > > would
> >> >> > > > > Sandy's level be named?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If I had a scale, it would look something like this:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> >> > > > 6) Passable
> >> >> > > > 7) Mediocre/Average
> >> >> > > > 8) Below Average/Subpar
> >> >> > > > 9) Bad
> >> >> > > > 10) Very Bad
> >> >> > > > 11) Extremely Bad
> >> >> > > > 12) Terrible
> >> >> > > > 13) Horrendous
> >> >> > > > 14) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > However, before your head starts swelling up any bigger, I should make a few
> >> >> > > > clarifications:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 1) Great
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > On a purely vocal level, there are very few Great singers. A great singer
> >> >> > > > requires a large vocal range, the ability to sustain notes, the ability to
> >> >> > > > project, the ability to express emotions, while maintaining a distinctive
> >> >> > > > sound, style, and personality.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > If I played someone a record by Elvis Presley, Nat "King" Cole, Frankie
> >> >> > > > Laine, Frank Sinatra, Johnnie Ray, Doris Day, Johnny Mathis, Bill Kenny,
> >> >> > > > Mario Lanza, Jane Monheit, Crystal Gayle, Pat Boone, Kay Starr, Patsy Cline,
> >> >> > > > Georgia Gibbs, Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Thurl Ravenscroft, Eddie Fisher,
> >> >> > > > Tiny Tim, Vaughn Monroe, Sarah Vaughan, Al Jolson, Tony Bennett, Jim Reeves,
> >> >> > > > Teresa Brewer, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, Dean Martin, Dion and other
> >> >> > > > greats, they would recognize them -- even if they'd never heard the song
> >> >> > > > before. That's what makes them great.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 2) Very Good
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Most *successful* singers fall under the Very Good category. These singers
> >> >> > > > have flawless voices and enough vocal personality that one can sometimes
> >> >> > > > recognize them; or they have recognizable, though somewhat limited or flawed
> >> >> > > > voices. Dinah Shore, Patti Page, Guy Mitchell, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Andy
> >> >> > > > Williams, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Gogi Grant, Kate Smith, Joni
> >> >> > > > James, Jane Morgan, Jaye P. Morgan, Anita Bryant, Leslie Uggams, Jimmy
> >> >> > > > Durante, Louis Armstrong, Sammy Davis Jr. and many others.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Note: These are all truly wonderful singers, and among my favorites.. They
> >> >> > > > simply fall slightly short (for one or more reasons) of the Greats.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 3) Good
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Good singers are fairly successful and highly talented, but lack definable
> >> >> > > > vocal characteristics in terms of vocal personality and style.. Rosemary
> >> >> > > > Clooney, Johnny Desmond, Evelyn Knight, Margaret Whiting, June Valli, Eydie
> >> >> > > > Gorme, Alan Dale, Jerry Vale, etc.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 4) Pretty Good
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Pretty Good singers don't quite cut it. They might have some great records,
> >> >> > > > but it's not due more to the song and the arrangement than to their vocal
> >> >> > > > talents. Pretty good singers didn't last long where the standards are
> >> >> > > > concerned. Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin were pretty good big band
> >> >> > > > vocalists, but they're better remembered for their work as talk show hosts.
> >> >> > > > The majority of r'n'r singers, however, fall into this category. Again,
> >> >> > > > this is not to diminish their accomplishments and/or talents in any way, but
> >> >> > > > is simply an acknowledgement that the r'n'r form demands less from the
> >> >> > > > vocalist: Bill Haley, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino, Chuck
> >> >> > > > Berry, et al., were all pretty good singers. The same holds for the lead
> >> >> > > > singers of most successful later groups: Jim Morrison, John Fogerty, Eric
> >> >> > > > Burdon, Roger Waters, et al.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 5) Decent
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > In the world of standards, there are no Decent singers. They wouldn't have
> >> >> > > > gotten a record deal, or a spot with a big band or a radio program.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > In the rock/post-rock era, they are legion. Decent means that while I won't
> >> >> > > > change the channel because of the singer's voice, I'm not listening because
> >> >> > > > of it, either.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Son Bono was a decent singer. Cher is very good.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 6) Passable/Mediocre/Average
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > A passable singer could sing at an open mic without getting booed off the
> >> >> > > > stage. An average singer can sing in key, carry a tune, and hold their end
> >> >> > > > notes for an acceptable amount. However, there is nothing even remotely
> >> >> > > > unique or memorable about their voice/style/approach.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > The remaining categories represent successive degrees of badness:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 7) Below Average/Subpar
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > As the header says, below average. I couldn't sit through an entire song by
> >> >> > > > them. They may sing a little sharp or flat, or hit an occasional sour note,
> >> >> > > > have a weak delivery, etc. Think Nelly Black.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 8) Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd leave after the first 5 seconds. Michael Jackson.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > That's a joke. MJ can sing in key. Sandy the Screech Owl Madaris is bad.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 9) Very Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Name the lead singer of virtually any metal band or rap group.. I find the
> >> >> > > > growling, grunting, and barking to be extremely displeasing, but I don't
> >> >> > > > experience any actual physical pain from it.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 10) Extremely Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd stick my fingers in my ears at the first note and run. The Bee Gees,
> >> >> > > > Andy Gibb, Shaun Cassidy, disco in general.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Falsetto (disco style) is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 12) Horrendous
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd scream, stick my fingers in my ears at the first note, run, and be
> >> >> > > > emotionally scarred for life. Janis Joplin and Joe Cocker, for example.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 13) Bob Dylan Bad
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > I'd rather ram knitting needles into my eardrums than listen to his
> >> >> > > > whiny-assed voice.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Found in the archives, of interest...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Interesting........
> >> >> > The earlier post is, as well:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It came from the "She Sleeps Tight" thread, an example:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Michael Pendragon" wrote in message
> >> >> > news:8996658e-710a-447a...@googlegroups.com...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 8:36:47 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 6:21:27 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> >> >> > > > On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 9:56:56 PM UTC, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Since the topic of the vocal talent of Sandy Madaris came up
> >> >> > > > > > > > yesterday, here is one of her duets with me, so the listeners
> >> >> > > > > > > > can judge for themselves:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LetBCcfrb8
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Way Back Home" by Sandy Madaris, written with Luke Powers,
> >> >> > > > > > > > produced by Tommy Spurlock. From the CD Way Back Home..
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > she's a screamer..tell her I told you
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > We agree. and when she's not screaming, she's shrieking. Will, tell
> >> >> > > > > > her to take it back to the privacy of her own bedroom.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > NG...
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > If you actually had listened to the recording, you'd know that your
> >> >> > > > > statement about Sandy is false.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > If you want to critique, fine, but at least review, or at least
> >> >> > > > > listen, to the work first?
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > We did critiques in another thread. She does not have a singing voice
> >> >> > > > that belongs on the stage or anywhere actually. Another old person
> >> >> > > > looking to claim some fame in the amateur nights.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I can't argue with an honest opinion, although I must say I don't often
> >> >> > > hear any pans of Sandy's talent.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > But art is subjective, after all. The least you can do, I would hoe, is
> >> >> > > provide a link to the recordings, so readers can listen and form their own
> >> >> > > opinions, NG.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > She's a really bad singer, Will. Not terrible, mind you ... but really bad.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And I think you should know by now that my critiques are unbiased..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think you have a decent voice, and have said so in the past. You can stay
> >> >> > in key. She can't. Your voice has a nice timbre to it (once one gets past
> >> >> > their initial reaction to the damage from 40 years of chain-smoking), it's
> >> >> > not bad. It's not good, either (you mostly just talk-sing, rarely attempt
> >> >> > to carry a tune, and can't hold an end note to save your life), but you rate
> >> >> > a solid decent.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Nelly Black's voice is okay ... if she's singing at a church social, or ...
> >> >> > on open mic night at the local bar. She can stay in key, and has a nice
> >> >> > sounding, but fatally weak, voice. "Okay" is a notch below "decent," so
> >> >> > you've got her beat as well ... though not by much.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Sandy Madaris is, no doubt, a very nice woman. But she has no more vocal
> >> >> > talent than ... I do. She may even be a worse ... although I'm not in a
> >> >> > position to judge.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/o8t2xYy4KF8/m/fMlDkjlFBQAJ
> >> >>
> >> >> Here is one of the conversations on the Beatles and Doc ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >>
> >> >> Quite interesting...!
> >> > But do you really think that a rating of "Decent" is complimentary
> >> Being on the level of The Beatles definitely is.
>
> > Too bad, George. Like I said, the Donkey is undermining your attempt to protect his (cough!) reputation.
> You're clueless about The Beatles, that's what we're seeing here.

NancyGene wrote:

> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
>> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> >>> postpoetry
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> although there's nothing left to say
>> >>> we're gonna say it anyway
>> >>> & if a reader doesn't read
>> >>> we'll call him something we don't need
>> >>> & if a critic calls it shit
>> >>> we won't believe a word of it
>> >>> & if a poet points that out
>> >>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>> >>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>> >>> so we won't have to read her words
>> >>>
>> >>> or better yet let's write of war
>> >>> and fill a page or two with gore
>> >>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>> >>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>> >>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>> >>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>> >>> motherfucker piss & shit
>> >>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>> >>>
>> >>> what else to do what else to say
>> >>> when everything is mere cliche?
>> >>> how else to make a reader feel
>> >>> or think that what we say is real?
>> >>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>> >>> when we're as comfortably numb
>> >>> but if we sweat through every motion
>> >>> we may feel a real emotion –
>> >>> at least it kills an hour or two
>> >>> and we have nothing else to do.
>> >>>
>> >>> ~~
>> >>> George J. Dance, 2007
>> >>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>> >
>> > George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>> speaker of the poem needs.

> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse." If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem? You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands. Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>
>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>> teacher we once had here:
>>
>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."
> That saying has been used too much here. The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.

Obviously Karla's statement hasn't been used enough, since some, like you, still haven't learned it, NancyGene.

HTH and HAND.

On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 6:32:41 PM UTC, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 12:58:59 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > > > postpoetry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > although there's nothing left to say
> > > > we're gonna say it anyway
> > > > & if a reader doesn't read
> > > > we'll call him something we don't need
> > > > & if a critic calls it shit
> > > > we won't believe a word of it
> > > > & if a poet points that out
> > > > we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > > > about her frogs and trees and birds
> > > > so we won't have to read her words
> > > >
> > > > or better yet let's write of war
> > > > and fill a page or two with gore
> > > > some reeking flesh a severed head
> > > > & maggots feasting on the dead
> > > > & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > > > let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > > > motherfucker piss & shit
> > > > (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> > > >
> > > > what else to do what else to say
> > > > when everything is mere cliche?
> > > > how else to make a reader feel
> > > > or think that what we say is real?
> > > > of course the whole idea is dumb
> > > > when we're as comfortably numb
> > > > but if we sweat through every motion
> > > > we may feel a real emotion –
> > > > at least it kills an hour or two
> > > > and we have nothing else to do.
> > > >
> > > > ~~
> > > > George J. Dance, 2007
> > > > from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> > > The quandary, do I firebomb or do I care not at all? This prose I can appreciate reading, so regardless of what anyone else does, I will leave this alone...
> > George Dance repeats words and thoughts in his poems, saying the same thing over and over, in more and more lines. We would not have used "comfortably numb," but George did. We didn't like the use of an ampersand in the poem (six times). Lazy writing.
> > >
> > > Shouldn't there be commas?
> > George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> > > < some reeking flesh a severed head
> > > < what else to do what else to say
> > Maybe he could have written something that showed talent?
> George's poem is an attempt at wit. Unfortunately, George thinks he's a whole lot funnier than he actually is.
George Dance is about as funny as reading the dictionary.
>
> The problem with George's poem (and with his poetry in general) isn't his lack of commas or punctuation, or even (arguably) repeated thoughts: it's that his thoughts are strictly middle of the road.

He hasn't even gone down the road. His thoughts are staid, boring and lack creativity.
>
> Even Will and his Stink's godawful Fragmentist poetry occasionally has an edge to individual portions of its disconnected babble. George's poetry, otoh, makes Hallmark cards seem cutting edge.

He needs to take a trip under the covers for inspiration.
>
> Don't get me wrong: George's poetry is always well-crafted and very well thought out (often too thought out). At his best, his poetry makes for a pleasant, and immediately forgotten, read. It's certainly a much more pleasant read than anything by the Donkey and his Stink.

It's dull. With the "pleasant," you are bringing up the image that the world has of Canadians, which equals "polite."
>
> There's just something missing from it. It lacks emotion, inventiveness, metaphor, bite, incisive observation... life of any sort.
It's as if a machine wrote it.
>
> Not even the incorporation of obscenities into his verses can infuse them with any hint of iconoclasm or rebelliousness. George's speaker is merely complaining about how others use those obscenities in a failed attempt to prove witty.
And it went "thunk."

>
> The basic idea is a good one: Although there is nothing new to say in poetry, the speaker is going to have his say all the same. If his words actually went on to say something new -- while skewering modern poetry in the process -- this might have been an instant classic.
No, not a chance.
>
> But George really does have nothing left to say, and his poem makes some common observations and common complaints about poetry (and poetry writing) in general, before admitting that the writer is just attempting to pass some time.
Filling a page in his book of leaden poetry.

> George will say that I'm attacking his poetry out of spite. I'm not. I like George's poetry well enough, and I'm not trying to say that it's bad. It isn't. And I hope that George continues to write poetry for AYoS.
>
> But I also feel that someone with George's particular talents should stay as far away from attempted wittiness as possible.
He has an audience of two, and those would not understand wit even if they had stayed in school an extra 50 years.

On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 1:51:34 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
> > On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>
> >>> postpoetry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>> & if a poet points that out
> >>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>
> >>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>
> >>> what else to do what else to say
> >>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>
> >>> ~~
> >>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >
> > George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> speaker of the poem needs.
>
> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> teacher we once had here:
>
> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."

You have nailed it once again G.D...!

On 2022-10-22 10:03 a.m., NancyGene wrote:
> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>
>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>
>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~
>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>
>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>> speaker of the poem needs.
>
> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."

I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
muse?

> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?

Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.

> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands.

It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.

> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?

No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.

>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>> teacher we once had here:
>>
>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."
> That saying has been used too much here.

Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.

> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.

Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet.