In message <spr2gk$786$2@dont-email.me>, at 23:10:12 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <18d1sg1dchrbrhblonh3l4b9bjcrggnakk@4ax.com>, at 17:10:37 on
>> Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:19:52 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by
>>>>>>Facebook, but it's still a simple messaging app - basically
>>>>>>texting by WiFi/mobile data, rather than by the (potentially
>>>>>>chargeable) SMS system.
>>>>>
>>>>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>>>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>>>>
>>>> By your definition, email is social media.
>>>
>>> Some definitions of social media would, indeed, include email. And, for
>>> that matter, Usenet. There isn't really a standard definition, because
>>> there's no organisation with the authority to define standards.
>>
>> I've spent much of the past 20yrs talking to politicians, regulators and
>> so on, who were on a quest to find out "who is running the Internet",
>> and tell them to pull their socks up.
>>
>> The lack of a central authority hasn't stopped them introducing
>> legislation that refers to social media, and it's fairly well understood
>> what the expression means.
>
>I would hazard a guess that Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok fall
>inside that definition, but WhatsApp and email fall outside. What about
>YouTube comments sections, or the multitudinous discussion forums?

There's actually two questions here - what do the legislators think they
want it to apply to, and how can they draft a definition which separates
those out?

I think it's very difficult to exclude those in your second list by
cunning definitions alone, but requires the legislation to have "social
media comprises those services on a list issued from time to time by the
Secretary of State".

Last time I went round this loop, they were averse to using that
procedure, despite there already being several such "lists" in Statutory
instruments, for example organisations empowered to use RIPA to demand
information from Telcos (as opposed to being banned from asking for it).

Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
which are exempt from DDA rules, which istr includes such trivia as a
particular wagon used by a preservation society in Bristol to ferry the
public around the site.

If they can find the time to document that, they can do the same for
YouTube, WhatsApp and email (always assuming they don't mind people
doing bad things on those platforms).

I suspect that leaving abusive comments on someone's Youtube channel
*should* be regulated, but we are getting a bit down in the weeds now.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 12:22:59 +0000, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 23/12/2021 06:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <hvt3sgt7isfho097l0hn626p6p2fmqpqar@4ax.com>, at 15:51:30 on
>> Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Perhaps there are hidden folders or files, as on PCs?
>>
>> Maybe there are. But surely people familiar with the way phones work
>> (and we seem to be surrounded by them) should be able to tell us this.
>> And unless the folders can be easily un-hidden, it rather makes the risk
>> of people hacking the tickets stored in them moot.
>>
>> As sudden thought: rather than use the phone itself to explore the
>> folders - again, we are surrounded by people who claim all they need
>> is a phone - how about attaching it to a laptop?
>>
>> And suddenly, there are 2,100 app data items to trawl through.  About
>> quarter are folders, and of the rest the biggest set are .CNT which are
>> apparently help files. There are no pdf's nor anything showing in the
>> train app folders.
>>
>> So I'm still on the hunt for where the app is putting the e-tickets, and
>> what format they are in.
>
>Android, based on Linux, has several features which this software may or
>may not use. Roland will know all this, but others may be interested.
>
>Files with names beginning with a dot are hidden by default but a decent
>file manager app will reveal them on request. This is not a security
>feature; it is for convenience when storing temporary files for internal
>use, such as a note of which podcast to resume playing and where.

Or, conversely, permanent (or near-permanent) files that are only edited
rarely and you don't want cluttering up your regular file listing (eg,
..bashrc). Files beginning with a dot are also not affected by 'rm *',
thus protecting them from accidental deletion.

Windows, of course, has a similar concept of hidden files, but there
it's done by means of a file attribute rather than the name. And, again,
it's not a security feature, it's just a means of reducing visual
clutter and giving important files a measure of protection against
accidental deletion or modification.

Mark

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:51:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>But most people seem able to access their email with equal convenience on
>>either phone or computer.
>
>Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>require editing and sending back?

You can certainly access them, yes. Editing them is a different
function, which may be harder, or even practically impossible, depending
on the nature of the document. But an e-ticket doesn't require editing.
It only requires access.

Mark

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
> Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a document, but
>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>
>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>
>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>> scenario under discussion here.
>
> It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
> scenario I was attempting to discuss.
>

I'm sure in the past you've claimed that in-app tickets are too difficult
because you have to remember which TOC you purchased the ticket from, thus
which app it will be contained within?

> In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
> advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
> that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
> no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.
>

For the vast majority of mobile phone users, receiving, storing and viewing
a PDF requires *absolutely nothing* to be "set up in advance".

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
> which are exempt from DDA rules,

Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?

> which istr includes such trivia as a
> particular wagon used by a preservation society in Bristol to ferry the
> public around the site.
>

Presumably the two passenger carriages of the council-owned, volunteer-run,
Bristol Harbour Railway. "The Site" being their line along two parts of
Bristol's waterfront.

<https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bristol_Harbour_Railway_-_Turbot_978121_converted_for_passengers.JPG>

<https://bristolharbourrailway.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/img_6148.jpg>

Further details here, for those interested
<https://bristolharbourrailway.co.uk/locomotives-and-rolling-stock/>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:46:08 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <spvic6$hp1$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:26 on Wed, 22 Dec
>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <bd22sgl713e0nlpurdh28n3s6edhpc9vee@4ax.com>, at 22:59:11 on
>>> Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 11:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <spnngq$5d4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:09 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm
>>>>>>>>> sure in
>>>>>>>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>>>>>>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders.
>>>>>>>>Taylor’s
>>>>>>>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered
>>>>>>>>port is
>>>>>>>> £10 in Morrisons.
>
>>>>>>> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm
>>>>>>> told it's coming up).
>>>>>>> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>>>>>>> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>>>>>>> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>>>>>>> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>>>>>>> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>>>>>>> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>>>>>>> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
>>>>>>> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest
>>>>>>> of the year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price
>>>>>> in Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely everyone has a Clubcard on their phone?
>>>>>
>>>> No, it is on a key ring with the others*. Total memory used = nil.
>>>>
>>>> *Except Lidl which takes up 134Mb and is probably an early choice for
>>>> dumping if/when any memory needs to be freed.
>>>
>>> Doesn't everyone have a 32GB phone?
>>
Only the fictional "everyone". There are still plenty of old 'phones
around.

>>No, most people have much more.
>
>Even better. So 134MB is insignificant. Next contestant please!
>
134MB is "insignificant" but the cumulative space taken up by mutliple
apps and documents is not necessarily so.

In message <4nl9sgh6j7i7cemhk2se2go34d96g2316n@4ax.com>, at 20:14:36 on
Thu, 23 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>>>> Surely everyone has a Clubcard on their phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, it is on a key ring with the others*. Total memory used = nil.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Except Lidl which takes up 134Mb and is probably an early choice for
>>>>> dumping if/when any memory needs to be freed.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't everyone have a 32GB phone?
>>>
>Only the fictional "everyone". There are still plenty of old 'phones
>around.

The next step down would be 16GB, but even then you can usually put in a
memory card to store at least the photos/videos on. I agree that an 8GB
phone is practically useless nowadays.

>>>No, most people have much more.
>>
>>Even better. So 134MB is insignificant. Next contestant please!
>>
>134MB is "insignificant" but the cumulative space taken up by mutliple
>apps and documents is not necessarily so.

I've got about 120 apps, mainly related to infrastructure (travel
booking, maps, cellsite and wifi diagnostics, flights and airports...)
and there's 4.2GB of 22GB remaining (approx 2GB of photos and videos),
I'm presuming the other 10GB is Android itself.

Biggest app is Teams, 101MB; closely followed by the Virgin Wifi App at
98MB. Some have quite big caches, such as BBC News 265MB.

So no, I don't think 134MB is especially significant (and we don't know
if that's just the app, or the app plus data - I expect they cache some
of their images, which could be flushed; Google Play says the app is
34MB).

--
Roland Perry

In message <sq1lk7$s36$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:13:11 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 23/12/2021 10:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spvobo$tgl$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 22/12/2021 17:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how
>>>>>>>>many PDFs
>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm
>>>>>>>parks and
>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>Cineworld and
>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine.  I’ve not
>>>>>investigated how  the
>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>  The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app
>>>>delivery.  I've given this example.
>>>>
>>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for
>>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5Mxgoy
>>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts
>>>>>>until they get to the cinema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>
>>>>  On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost
>>>>their iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know
>>>>which, but it could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they
>>>>can't locate it or do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is
>>>>what people immediately suggest], because they know the phone's
>>>>battery was dead before they misplaced it.
>>>
>>> So they are stupid as well as clumsy.

>> Victim blaming is always a good look, if you getting desperate and
>>have no better answer.
>
>Same old excuse, I just don't believe it.
>
>>> There is no excuse in this day and age for having a phone with your
>>>ticket on and letting the battery go flat.
>> Ah yes, the let them eat cake defence ("doesn't everyone carry a
>>power block?").
>
>What's a power block got t do with it. If they can't be bothered to
>charge their phone what makes you think they would remember to charge
>their power block?

What this comes down to the preparedness of the public. Which is often
characterised here as "goat herder" syndrome, and anyone without all the
latest tech at their fingertips, and IMAP configured within an inch of
its life, dismissed as a Luddite.

But I'm slightly more realistic, which is why I'm concerned about this
new Penalty Fare hike. But visibility of new accommodations would go a
long way to putting my mind at rest.

At the hospital there's a validator in most of the larger waiting rooms
where you can donate £3 to the charitable trust[1] with a single touch.
Would it be difficult to deploy a 21st Century PERTIS machine which
registered <<insert fee here, but TfL takes 10p when you first touch in
for the day>> if the TVM is broken?

>>> That probably qualifies as the second oldest excuse in the book for
>>>the average gripper. (After the dog ate my ticket).

>> However, that's not the scenario under discussion, which is arriving
>>at the station to find the TVM broken and needing to use the phone to
>>buy one instead. Rather than the train company assuring passengers of
>>a rather less user-hostile Plan-B.
>
>No, you changed the discussion to someone who couldn't be bothered to
>charge their phone when they knew they had a ticket on it that they
>would need to show at some point. Or were they hoping there would be no
>check at their destination?

The lost phone in question didn't have a ticket on it - and neither of
the stations involved have barriers (nor do the trains have grippers).
It was simply an illustration of people who can apparently afford an
iPhone, then not keeping it fettled.

[1] Who provide things that you'd have expected the NHS to fund,
everything from improved seating in the waiting rooms, to CT
scanners, but I digress.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq1ls0$tnc$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:17:20 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spvo2v$oi$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:42:55 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>Cineworld and an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve
>>>>>not investigated how the QR code was embedded.
>>>>
>>>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>>>> I've given this example.
>>>>
>>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>>
>>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>>> misplaced it.
>>>
>>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>>
>> It shows that people with phones, on trains, don't always have a charged
>> battery, even when they knew that before travelling.
>
>But if they knew the battery was dead they’d also know it couldn’t have
>been used to display a valid ticket, so either they were travelling
>illegitimately or they had some other form of ticket available, so the
>incident is not relevant to the point you’re trying to make.

It is related, because if the TVM had been broken, the suggestion here
is they should be prepared to buy an e-ticket through an app.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq1m4g$v9a$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:52 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
>> let alone helpful).
>
>I did say the first was a long time ago, so it would have been unheard of
>for a train not to have a guard. The second was about 10 years ago; I
>don’t know if the staffing of those services would have changed in the mean
>time.

I'm not sure when the line that's currently known as Great Northern went
DOO, but it was before I started using it regularly in 1999 (WAGN).

The previous few years I'd been using the SWT suburban services out of
Waterloo (lines to Guildford, Hampton Court etc) and while I'm aware
there's still a dispute about guards on the franchise, I don't recall
ever seeing one on any of those trains.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/12/2021 07:10, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sq1lk7$s36$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:13:11 on Thu, 23 Dec
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 23/12/2021 10:55, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spvobo$tgl$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 22/12/2021 17:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how
>>>>>>>>> many  PDFs
>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm
>>>>>>>> parks and
>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>> Cineworld and
>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine.  I’ve not investigated
>>>>>> how  the
>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>  The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app
>>>>> delivery.  I've given this example.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for
>>>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5Mxgoy
>>>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts
>>>>>>> until  they  get to the cinema.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film
>>>>>> doesn’t
>>>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and
>>>>>> charge the
>>>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>
>>>>>  On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost
>>>>> their  iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know
>>>>> which, but it  could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they
>>>>> can't locate it  or do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is
>>>>> what people  immediately suggest], because they know the phone's
>>>>> battery was dead  before they misplaced it.
>>>>
>>>> So they are stupid as well as clumsy.
>
>>>  Victim blaming is always a good look, if you getting desperate and
>>> have  no better answer.
>>
>> Same old excuse, I just don't believe it.
>>
>>>> There is no excuse in this day and age for having a phone with your
>>>> ticket on and letting the battery go flat.
>>>  Ah yes, the let them eat cake defence ("doesn't everyone carry a
>>> power  block?").
>>
>> What's a power block got t do with it. If they can't be bothered to
>> charge their phone what makes you think they would remember to charge
>> their power block?
>
> What this comes down to the preparedness of the public. Which is often
> characterised here as "goat herder" syndrome, and anyone without all the
> latest tech at their fingertips, and IMAP configured within an inch of
> its life, dismissed as a Luddite.
>
> But I'm slightly more realistic, which is why I'm concerned about this
> new Penalty Fare hike. But visibility of new accommodations would go a
> long way to putting my mind at rest.
>
> At the hospital there's a validator in most of the larger waiting rooms
> where you can donate £3 to the charitable trust[1] with a single touch.
> Would it be difficult to deploy a 21st Century PERTIS machine which
> registered <<insert fee here, but TfL takes 10p when you first touch in
> for the day>> if the TVM is broken?
>
>>>> That probably qualifies as the second oldest excuse in the book for
>>>> the average gripper. (After the dog ate my ticket).
>
>>>  However, that's not the scenario under discussion, which is arriving
>>> at  the station to find the TVM broken and needing to use the phone
>>> to buy  one instead. Rather than the train company assuring
>>> passengers of a  rather less user-hostile Plan-B.
>>
>> No, you changed the discussion to someone who couldn't be bothered to
>> charge their phone when they knew they had a ticket on it that they
>> would need to show at some point. Or were they hoping there would be
>> no check at their destination?
>
> The lost phone in question didn't have a ticket on it - and neither of
> the stations involved have barriers (nor do the trains have grippers).
> It was simply an illustration of people who can apparently afford an
> iPhone, then not keeping it fettled.
>

Then it is totally irrelevant so why introduce it into the conversation?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>
>Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?

I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?

Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
things like HSTs without accessible toilets.

>> which istr includes such trivia as a particular wagon used by a
>>preservation society in Bristol to ferry the public around the site.
>
>Presumably the two passenger carriages of the council-owned, volunteer-run,
>Bristol Harbour Railway. "The Site" being their line along two parts of
>Bristol's waterfront.
>
><https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bristol_Harbour_Railway_-_Tur
>bot_978121_converted_for_passengers.JPG>
>
><https://bristolharbourrailway.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/img_6148.jpg>
>
>Further details here, for those interested
><https://bristolharbourrailway.co.uk/locomotives-and-rolling-stock/>

Yes, that's probably it. Where are the contrasting-colour doors, for
example?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq2bim$a4s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:50 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
>> Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a
>>>>>document, but
>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>>
>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>
>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>
>> It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
>> scenario I was attempting to discuss.
>
>I'm sure in the past you've claimed that in-app tickets are too difficult
>because you have to remember which TOC you purchased the ticket from, thus
>which app it will be contained within?

Yes, that's an issue for *me*, but I expect the average passenger only
has one or two apps to choose from.

They are not as adventurous as some of us, investigating whether it's
possible to buy e-tickets for the Fen Line off TfW, when that option is
missing from the GA/GN apps.

>> In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
>> advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
>> that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
>> no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.
>
>For the vast majority of mobile phone users, receiving, storing and viewing
>a PDF requires *absolutely nothing* to be "set up in advance".

They need to set up the account with the TOC to point at the email
address they collect on the phone, as well as installing a PDF viewer
(which isn't built into Android, does it come baked into iOS?)
--
Roland Perry

On 24/12/2021 09:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> They need to set up the account with the TOC to point at the email
> address they collect on the phone, as well as installing a PDF viewer
> (which isn't built into Android, does it come baked into iOS?)

Yes, as said already.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:37:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>>Cineworld and
>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>>investigated how the
>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>

>
>And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
>let alone helpful).
>
>An acquaintance left a backpack on a train a couple of years ago, and
>despite immediately phoning through to the next stop, and it being a
>train with a guard, the company was completely disinterested in helping,
>suggesting only that enquiries be made in a few days time in case it had
>been found by the cleaners at the end of the day. Suggestions that
>viewing the train's CCTV might reveal who could have (quite probably)
>nicked it en-route were received with incredulity. Although I wasn't
>surprised.

That's where RTT can help!

Two years ago I left my coat on a GWR train at Newton Abbots. I
realised not long after, by which time I was on an XC train heading
east. I DMed @gwrhelp who sent me a link that made me complete a
lengthy form describing the item, where it was lost and so on. When I
submitted the form I was redirected to whoever handles their lost
property. They wanted me to complete another form, duplicating what
I'd just entered.

Bloody useless.

I looked at RTT, jumped off the XC at Exeter, caught the next SWR
service to Exeter Central and waited for the third train. I got on and
retreived my coat from the rack.

RTT had shown me that the train I'd left the coat on had terminated at
St. Davids, spent a little time in New Sidings, ran ECS to Exmouth
Junction before forming the Exeter Central - Paignton service that I
was able to recover my coat from.

Thank you Tom Cairns.

On 24/12/2021 09:37, Ken wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:37:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>>> Cineworld and
>>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>>> investigated how the
>>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>>
>
>>
>> And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
>> let alone helpful).
>>
>> An acquaintance left a backpack on a train a couple of years ago, and
>> despite immediately phoning through to the next stop, and it being a
>> train with a guard, the company was completely disinterested in helping,
>> suggesting only that enquiries be made in a few days time in case it had
>> been found by the cleaners at the end of the day. Suggestions that
>> viewing the train's CCTV might reveal who could have (quite probably)
>> nicked it en-route were received with incredulity. Although I wasn't
>> surprised.
>
> That's where RTT can help!
>
> Two years ago I left my coat on a GWR train at Newton Abbots. I
> realised not long after, by which time I was on an XC train heading
> east. I DMed @gwrhelp who sent me a link that made me complete a
> lengthy form describing the item, where it was lost and so on. When I
> submitted the form I was redirected to whoever handles their lost
> property. They wanted me to complete another form, duplicating what
> I'd just entered.
>
> Bloody useless.
>
> I looked at RTT, jumped off the XC at Exeter, caught the next SWR
> service to Exeter Central and waited for the third train. I got on and
> retreived my coat from the rack.
>
> RTT had shown me that the train I'd left the coat on had terminated at
> St. Davids, spent a little time in New Sidings, ran ECS to Exmouth
> Junction before forming the Exeter Central - Paignton service that I
> was able to recover my coat from.
>
> Thank you Tom Cairns.

I trust you made a suitable donation.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq2bim$a4s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:50 on Thu, 23 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
>>> Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a
>>>>>> document, but
>>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>>
>>> It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
>>> scenario I was attempting to discuss.
>>
>> I'm sure in the past you've claimed that in-app tickets are too difficult
>> because you have to remember which TOC you purchased the ticket from, thus
>> which app it will be contained within?
>
> Yes, that's an issue for *me*, but I expect the average passenger only
> has one or two apps to choose from.
>
> They are not as adventurous as some of us, investigating whether it's
> possible to buy e-tickets for the Fen Line off TfW, when that option is
> missing from the GA/GN apps.
>
>>> In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
>>> advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
>>> that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
>>> no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.
>>
>> For the vast majority of mobile phone users, receiving, storing and viewing
>> a PDF requires *absolutely nothing* to be "set up in advance".
>
> They need to set up the account with the TOC

Same for in-app tickets, so it's not an extra for receiving PDFs.

> to point at the email
> address they collect on the phone, as well as installing a PDF viewer
> (which isn't built into Android, does it come baked into iOS?)
>

Yup, already present and configured in iOS. As it was on my work Android
devices, so I assumed it was on all Android things, but perhaps that was
actually part of the company phone set up before it was issued to me.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:37:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>>> Cineworld and
>>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>>> investigated how the
>>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>>
>
>>
>> And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
>> let alone helpful).
>>
>> An acquaintance left a backpack on a train a couple of years ago, and
>> despite immediately phoning through to the next stop, and it being a
>> train with a guard, the company was completely disinterested in helping,
>> suggesting only that enquiries be made in a few days time in case it had
>> been found by the cleaners at the end of the day. Suggestions that
>> viewing the train's CCTV might reveal who could have (quite probably)
>> nicked it en-route were received with incredulity. Although I wasn't
>> surprised.
>
> That's where RTT can help!
>
> Two years ago I left my coat on a GWR train at Newton Abbots. I
> realised not long after, by which time I was on an XC train heading
> east. I DMed @gwrhelp who sent me a link that made me complete a
> lengthy form describing the item, where it was lost and so on. When I
> submitted the form I was redirected to whoever handles their lost
> property. They wanted me to complete another form, duplicating what
> I'd just entered.
>
> Bloody useless.
>
> I looked at RTT, jumped off the XC at Exeter, caught the next SWR
> service to Exeter Central and waited for the third train. I got on and
> retreived my coat from the rack.
>
> RTT had shown me that the train I'd left the coat on had terminated at
> St. Davids, spent a little time in New Sidings, ran ECS to Exmouth
> Junction before forming the Exeter Central - Paignton service that I
> was able to recover my coat from.
>
> Thank you Tom Cairns.
>

Even easier now, with unit numbers in RTT!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>
>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>
> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>
> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.

That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
toilets.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq2bim$a4s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:50 on Thu, 23 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
>>>> Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a
>>>>>>> document, but
>>>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>>>
>>>> It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
>>>> scenario I was attempting to discuss.
>>>
>>> I'm sure in the past you've claimed that in-app tickets are too difficult
>>> because you have to remember which TOC you purchased the ticket from, thus
>>> which app it will be contained within?
>>
>> Yes, that's an issue for *me*, but I expect the average passenger only
>> has one or two apps to choose from.
>>
>> They are not as adventurous as some of us, investigating whether it's
>> possible to buy e-tickets for the Fen Line off TfW, when that option is
>> missing from the GA/GN apps.
>>
>>>> In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
>>>> advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
>>>> that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
>>>> no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.
>>>
>>> For the vast majority of mobile phone users, receiving, storing and viewing
>>> a PDF requires *absolutely nothing* to be "set up in advance".
>>
>> They need to set up the account with the TOC
>
> Same for in-app tickets, so it's not an extra for receiving PDFs.
>
>> to point at the email
>> address they collect on the phone, as well as installing a PDF viewer
>> (which isn't built into Android, does it come baked into iOS?)
>>
>
> Yup, already present and configured in iOS. As it was on my work Android
> devices, so I assumed it was on all Android things, but perhaps that was
> actually part of the company phone set up before it was issued to me.
>

Yes, bare Android doesn't include a PDF viewer, but quite a few other apps
can view them plus there are numerous PDF viewers in the app store.

So, almost every Android device will have at least one PDF viewer
installed. And when you migrate from one phone to the next, the PDF
viewer(s) will come with you. So it was a problem users had to solve once,
in the first few days of getting their first phone. If they were young,
they'd have solved it effortlessly; if Roland's age, they'd have had help
from someone much younger.

Roland seems to treat mobile phones as curious lab samples to be probed and
measured, not essential devices for a modern lifestyle. He doesn't
configure them as normal users would, and comes unstuck on trivial issues
that ordinary users wouldn't even notice.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq1ls0$tnc$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:17:20 on Thu, 23 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spvo2v$oi$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:42:55 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>> Cineworld and an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve
>>>>>> not investigated how the QR code was embedded.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>>>>> I've given this example.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>>>> misplaced it.
>>>>
>>>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>>>
>>> It shows that people with phones, on trains, don't always have a charged
>>> battery, even when they knew that before travelling.
>>
>> But if they knew the battery was dead they’d also know it couldn’t have
>> been used to display a valid ticket, so either they were travelling
>> illegitimately or they had some other form of ticket available, so the
>> incident is not relevant to the point you’re trying to make.
>
> It is related, because if the TVM had been broken, the suggestion here
> is they should be prepared to buy an e-ticket through an app.

Well, some people think so. I’d just get on the train and explain that
there was no opportunity purchase a ticket. In the absence of an irate bus
driver to tell me to go home and buy a ticket there I think that’s entirely
reasonable. So far we don’t have any hard evidence that the TOC would
disagree.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:37:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>>> Cineworld and
>>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>>> investigated how the
>>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>>
>
>>
>> And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
>> let alone helpful).
>>
>> An acquaintance left a backpack on a train a couple of years ago, and
>> despite immediately phoning through to the next stop, and it being a
>> train with a guard, the company was completely disinterested in helping,
>> suggesting only that enquiries be made in a few days time in case it had
>> been found by the cleaners at the end of the day. Suggestions that
>> viewing the train's CCTV might reveal who could have (quite probably)
>> nicked it en-route were received with incredulity. Although I wasn't
>> surprised.
>
> That's where RTT can help!
>
> Two years ago I left my coat on a GWR train at Newton Abbots. I
> realised not long after, by which time I was on an XC train heading
> east. I DMed @gwrhelp who sent me a link that made me complete a
> lengthy form describing the item, where it was lost and so on. When I
> submitted the form I was redirected to whoever handles their lost
> property. They wanted me to complete another form, duplicating what
> I'd just entered.
>
> Bloody useless.
>
> I looked at RTT, jumped off the XC at Exeter, caught the next SWR
> service to Exeter Central and waited for the third train. I got on and
> retreived my coat from the rack.
>
> RTT had shown me that the train I'd left the coat on had terminated at
> St. Davids, spent a little time in New Sidings, ran ECS to Exmouth
> Junction before forming the Exeter Central - Paignton service that I
> was able to recover my coat from.
>
> Thank you Tom Cairns.

I once took a trip from Ljubljana to Ludwigshafen, changing in Stuttgart.
Just outside Munich we stopped for some time in a station called Haar.
After some minutes there was an announcement that passengers for Munich Hbf
and Munich Ost should change to the S-Bahn. A couple of folks got out of
our compartment and left a rucksack behind. I was too late to catch them
before the S-Bahn left so I gave it to the restaurant staff in the next
carriage. When we eventually arrived in Hbf about an hour after we should
have been there the chap whose rucksack it was was on the platform and came
looking for it, so I took him to the restaurant and he was reunited with
his bag.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>
>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>
>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>
>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>
>That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>toilets.

What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
in the rake pre-refurbishment).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tl4bsgpntrb8ksb690tftb7lh5hmuv8j0r@4ax.com>, at 09:37:34 on
Fri, 24 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:37:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm
>>>>>>>>>parks and
>>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>>>Cineworld and
>>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>>>investigated how the
>>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>>
>
>>
>>And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
>>let alone helpful).
>>
>>An acquaintance left a backpack on a train a couple of years ago, and
>>despite immediately phoning through to the next stop, and it being a
>>train with a guard, the company was completely disinterested in helping,
>>suggesting only that enquiries be made in a few days time in case it had
>>been found by the cleaners at the end of the day. Suggestions that
>>viewing the train's CCTV might reveal who could have (quite probably)
>>nicked it en-route were received with incredulity. Although I wasn't
>>surprised.
>
>That's where RTT can help!
>
>Two years ago I left my coat on a GWR train at Newton Abbots. I
>realised not long after, by which time I was on an XC train heading
>east. I DMed @gwrhelp who sent me a link that made me complete a
>lengthy form describing the item, where it was lost and so on. When I
>submitted the form I was redirected to whoever handles their lost
>property. They wanted me to complete another form, duplicating what
>I'd just entered.
>
>Bloody useless.
>
>I looked at RTT, jumped off the XC at Exeter, caught the next SWR
>service to Exeter Central and waited for the third train. I got on and
>retreived my coat from the rack.
>
>RTT had shown me that the train I'd left the coat on had terminated at
>St. Davids, spent a little time in New Sidings, ran ECS to Exmouth
>Junction before forming the Exeter Central - Paignton service that I
>was able to recover my coat from.
>
>Thank you Tom Cairns.

The train in my anecdote was bound for distant parts, but I suppose
those which are more like shuttles could be met later.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq40vg$juf$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:39:12 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> The lost phone in question didn't have a ticket on it - and neither
>>of the stations involved have barriers (nor do the trains have
>>grippers). It was simply an illustration of people who can apparently
>>afford an iPhone, then not keeping it fettled.
>
>Then it is totally irrelevant so why introduce it into the
>conversation?

Because people here appear to expect travellers to have phones on them
to buy tickets at the last minute when they find the TVM out of action.
And that requires not just having a phone (and an account with a TOC,
they take quite a while to set up) but a phone with charge left, not
just then but for the duration of the trip.
--
Roland Perry