In message <sp8ff1$lkn$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:54:41 on Mon, 13 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp7tcd$3if$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:46:05 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sp7s8a$dhf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:50 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sp7ob7$ukf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:07 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <5le3YYTK0=s9NL3Z5LJXMYJlxRqd@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>14:28:12 on Mon,
>>>>>>>>>> 13 Dec 2021, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But still requires launching and logging-in to Adobe. Which
>>>>>>>>>>>>of course
>>>>>>>>>>>> once again requires connectivity (to facilitate the log-in).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't. You bypass the login screen by clicking the cross in
>>>>>>>>>>> the top right hand corner.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not at all obvious that this would circumvent the need
>>>>>>>>>>to log in,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than closing the app.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even knowing you, I'm astonished at the heavy weather you're
>>>>>>>>> making of this
>>>>>>>>> trivial, self-inflicted problem!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I didn't inflict the brain-dead last century ticket delivery
>>>>>>>> mechanism upon myself. That was Greater Anglia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's how many tickets of all sorts get routinely delivered (eg, to
>>>>>>> exhibitions, cinemas, shows, etc). I've never heard of any
>>>>>>>ordinary person,
>>>>>>> even non-techie oldies, having a problem — just you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But most of those are not required in real time when you've arrived at
>>>>>> the station to find the TVM broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I have ordered such tickets, weeks in advance, on my PC, not my
>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>
>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>
>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>
>> Isn't that against Heisenberg's uncertainty principle? You would need a
>> quantum mechanics solution to the problem…
>
>Schrödinger’s ticket….

You jest, but this is roughly what happens on my "work phone". If I
receive and deal with emails on the phone, they get marked-as-read and
much less obvious on the parallel PC-resident Outlook.

As a result I tend to use the phone's presentation of emails as merely a
pager, and depending on how many are stacked up, and what the authors/
titles are, actually deal with them on a desktop later.

It also only caches a limited number of them on the phone (I see twelve
at the moment) but I don't know if the limit is based on quantity or
age. Those twelve are all from yesterday (unusually busy due to new
Covid workplace rules being rolled out), none from the day before.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sp899l$j07$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Mon, 13 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp7t6k$vot$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp7s8a$dhf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:50 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sp7ob7$ukf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:07 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <5le3YYTK0=s9NL3Z5LJXMYJlxRqd@4ax.com>, at 14:28:12 on Mon,
>>>>>>>> 13 Dec 2021, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But still requires launching and logging-in to Adobe. Which of course
>>>>>>>>>> once again requires connectivity (to facilitate the log-in).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't. You bypass the login screen by clicking the cross in
>>>>>>>>> the top right hand corner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not at all obvious that this would circumvent the need to log in,
>>>>>>>> rather than closing the app.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even knowing you, I'm astonished at the heavy weather you're
>>>>>>> making of this
>>>>>>> trivial, self-inflicted problem!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I didn't inflict the brain-dead last century ticket delivery
>>>>>> mechanism upon myself. That was Greater Anglia.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's how many tickets of all sorts get routinely delivered (eg, to
>>>>> exhibitions, cinemas, shows, etc). I've never heard of any
>>>>>ordinary person,
>>>>> even non-techie oldies, having a problem — just you.
>>>>
>>>> But most of those are not required in real time when you've arrived at
>>>> the station to find the TVM broken.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I have ordered such tickets, weeks in advance, on my PC, not my
>>>> phone.
>>>
>>> Why don’t you order the tickets in advance, eg when leaving home?
>>>Then it’s
>>> irrelevant what the working status of the TVM is.
>>
>> Because I don't want to spend that much time ordering tickets costing
>> typically less than £3 each, in advance.
>>
>> Just like I'd rather pay a bus fare in ten seconds when boarding, rather
>> than have to order it in advance.
>>
>>> Or do you randomly pass the station and suddenly decide you want to
>>> make a trip?
>>
>> Quite often my choice, depending on where we are on the clockface, is to
>> catch a bus or a train.
>>
>> And too many times I've got to the station and found the train has been
>> cancelled, so rather than wait an hour for the next one, decide to
>> abandon the trip until another day.
>
>After exploring the ITSO feature of the EMR app I had a closer look at the
>e-ticket bit. It offers to deliver the e-ticket to the in app wallet, or by
>email, where I can then save it to Apple Wallet. So your objection to email
>vanishes as the app can save the ticket.

The EMT ITSO app (which I not only have, but used) is interoperable with
Greater Anglia ITSO validators. I've mentioned this in the past - and
noted it's probably due to both TOCs being associated with Abellio.

But that's a rare glimmer of hope.

>So at this point I can’t see how it is any harder to use than the TVM,
>and you could do it from the car in the station car park.

Buying a ticket from the TVM is about four presses. Because my
destination will be one of the short-list of favourites, and all that's
required then is picking the ticket type, plus two more presses for
myself if using a railcard. Then contactless payment. By comparison the
apps are much more fiddly.

>Also displays live departures, so you can’t moan
>about not knowing the train running status from the comfort of your car.

In fact, I've mainly talked about being "stood in the car park in the
rain", because that's where the ticket machine is often located. More
often than not, however, I will have walked to the station, but I
realise this is fairly unusual so didn't want to distract from the
general theory.

>I await the reasons why this is now totally impractical……..

As well as the above, it also requires the flow in question to have ITSO
ticketing as one of the options. And as I've said about a hundred times
over the past couple of years, while ITSO ticketing across their whole
network was a GTR franchise commitment which they should have delivered
long ago, they haven't.

A general observation: anecdata that "this works for the ticket I just
bought with this app on this phone" cuts little ice in the real world,
where outside areas like Oyster, lack of consistency is rife.

I posted actual up-to-date mystery purchase data about a week ago, which
included some flows where the *only* option offered was TOD.

<Early adopter hat on> I'd probably most support a product like KeyGo,
which is essentially an Oyster-like product across much of the old NSE
area.

<https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-
and-documents/key-documents/gtr-1805-ret-keygo-area-map-v27.pdf>

But as you can see, stalls at Foxton (and Huntingdon, and...; with these
outposts not even consistently aligned with the edge of the "London
Travel Area", but randomly at places like Leatherhead-for-Guildford) let
alone even having pretensions at one day reaching to places like
Thetford, Soham and March as branches off the Fen Line or Shalford
beyond Dorking Deepdene.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp899l$j07$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Mon, 13 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp7t6k$vot$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sp7s8a$dhf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:50 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sp7ob7$ukf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:07 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <5le3YYTK0=s9NL3Z5LJXMYJlxRqd@4ax.com>, at 14:28:12 on Mon,
>>>>>>>>> 13 Dec 2021, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But still requires launching and logging-in to Adobe. Which of course
>>>>>>>>>>> once again requires connectivity (to facilitate the log-in).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't. You bypass the login screen by clicking the cross in
>>>>>>>>>> the top right hand corner.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not at all obvious that this would circumvent the need to log in,
>>>>>>>>> rather than closing the app.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even knowing you, I'm astonished at the heavy weather you're
>>>>>>>> making of this
>>>>>>>> trivial, self-inflicted problem!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I didn't inflict the brain-dead last century ticket delivery
>>>>>>> mechanism upon myself. That was Greater Anglia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's how many tickets of all sorts get routinely delivered (eg, to
>>>>>> exhibitions, cinemas, shows, etc). I've never heard of any
>>>>>> ordinary person,
>>>>>> even non-techie oldies, having a problem — just you.
>>>>>
>>>>> But most of those are not required in real time when you've arrived at
>>>>> the station to find the TVM broken.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I have ordered such tickets, weeks in advance, on my PC, not my
>>>>> phone.
>>>>
>>>> Why don’t you order the tickets in advance, eg when leaving home?
>>>> Then it’s
>>>> irrelevant what the working status of the TVM is.
>>>
>>> Because I don't want to spend that much time ordering tickets costing
>>> typically less than £3 each, in advance.
>>>
>>> Just like I'd rather pay a bus fare in ten seconds when boarding, rather
>>> than have to order it in advance.
>>>
>>>> Or do you randomly pass the station and suddenly decide you want to
>>>> make a trip?
>>>
>>> Quite often my choice, depending on where we are on the clockface, is to
>>> catch a bus or a train.
>>>
>>> And too many times I've got to the station and found the train has been
>>> cancelled, so rather than wait an hour for the next one, decide to
>>> abandon the trip until another day.
>>
>> After exploring the ITSO feature of the EMR app I had a closer look at the
>> e-ticket bit. It offers to deliver the e-ticket to the in app wallet, or by
>> email, where I can then save it to Apple Wallet. So your objection to email
>> vanishes as the app can save the ticket.
>
> The EMT ITSO app (which I not only have, but used) is interoperable with
> Greater Anglia ITSO validators. I've mentioned this in the past - and
> noted it's probably due to both TOCs being associated with Abellio.
>
> But that's a rare glimmer of hope.
>
>> So at this point I can’t see how it is any harder to use than the TVM,
>> and you could do it from the car in the station car park.
>
> Buying a ticket from the TVM is about four presses. Because my
> destination will be one of the short-list of favourites, and all that's
> required then is picking the ticket type, plus two more presses for
> myself if using a railcard. Then contactless payment. By comparison the
> apps are much more fiddly.
>
>> Also displays live departures, so you can’t moan
>> about not knowing the train running status from the comfort of your car.
>
> In fact, I've mainly talked about being "stood in the car park in the
> rain", because that's where the ticket machine is often located. More
> often than not, however, I will have walked to the station, but I
> realise this is fairly unusual so didn't want to distract from the
> general theory.
>
>> I await the reasons why this is now totally impractical……..
>
> As well as the above, it also requires the flow in question to have ITSO
> ticketing as one of the options. And as I've said about a hundred times
> over the past couple of years, while ITSO ticketing across their whole
> network was a GTR franchise commitment which they should have delivered
> long ago, they haven't.

No it doesn’t. The app can deliver the ticket to the app’s wallet. This was
one of your earlier requirements lest you forget.

Now, let’s get this straight, you don’t want to use an app in case you are
stood out in the rain on the canopy free platform, yet you are walking to
the station.

So I think we can now discount the weather as a spurious argument. So even
if you prefer to use the TVM there’s absolutely no reason why you can’t use
the app if the TVM doesn’t work.

In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>15:38:03 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>>>accounts
>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>need to
>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them
>>>>>>can wait
>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading
>>>>>>them when
>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>compromise
>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>>>>deliver
>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern
>>>>>>>ways to do
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.

>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>credential that they relate to you.
>
>Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?

It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.

Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
about the underlying processes.

Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
transport operator might make that next to impossible.

FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
as just handing over a bit of paper.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sp9hte$u55$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:42:38 on Tue, 14 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp899l$j07$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Mon, 13 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp7t6k$vot$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sp7s8a$dhf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:50 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sp7ob7$ukf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:07 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <5le3YYTK0=s9NL3Z5LJXMYJlxRqd@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>14:28:12 on Mon,
>>>>>>>>>> 13 Dec 2021, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But still requires launching and logging-in to Adobe. Which
>>>>>>>>>>>>of course
>>>>>>>>>>>> once again requires connectivity (to facilitate the log-in).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't. You bypass the login screen by clicking the cross in
>>>>>>>>>>> the top right hand corner.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not at all obvious that this would circumvent the need
>>>>>>>>>>to log in,
>>>>>>>>>> rather than closing the app.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even knowing you, I'm astonished at the heavy weather you're
>>>>>>>>> making of this
>>>>>>>>> trivial, self-inflicted problem!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I didn't inflict the brain-dead last century ticket delivery
>>>>>>>> mechanism upon myself. That was Greater Anglia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's how many tickets of all sorts get routinely delivered (eg, to
>>>>>>> exhibitions, cinemas, shows, etc). I've never heard of any
>>>>>>> ordinary person,
>>>>>>> even non-techie oldies, having a problem — just you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But most of those are not required in real time when you've arrived at
>>>>>> the station to find the TVM broken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I have ordered such tickets, weeks in advance, on my PC, not my
>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why don’t you order the tickets in advance, eg when leaving home?
>>>>> Then it’s
>>>>> irrelevant what the working status of the TVM is.
>>>>
>>>> Because I don't want to spend that much time ordering tickets costing
>>>> typically less than £3 each, in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Just like I'd rather pay a bus fare in ten seconds when boarding, rather
>>>> than have to order it in advance.
>>>>
>>>>> Or do you randomly pass the station and suddenly decide you want to
>>>>> make a trip?
>>>>
>>>> Quite often my choice, depending on where we are on the clockface, is to
>>>> catch a bus or a train.
>>>>
>>>> And too many times I've got to the station and found the train has been
>>>> cancelled, so rather than wait an hour for the next one, decide to
>>>> abandon the trip until another day.
>>>
>>> After exploring the ITSO feature of the EMR app I had a closer look at the
>>> e-ticket bit. It offers to deliver the e-ticket to the in app wallet, or by
>>> email, where I can then save it to Apple Wallet. So your objection to email
>>> vanishes as the app can save the ticket.
>>
>> The EMT ITSO app (which I not only have, but used) is interoperable with
>> Greater Anglia ITSO validators. I've mentioned this in the past - and
>> noted it's probably due to both TOCs being associated with Abellio.
>>
>> But that's a rare glimmer of hope.
>>
>>> So at this point I can’t see how it is any harder to use than the TVM,
>>> and you could do it from the car in the station car park.
>>
>> Buying a ticket from the TVM is about four presses. Because my
>> destination will be one of the short-list of favourites, and all that's
>> required then is picking the ticket type, plus two more presses for
>> myself if using a railcard. Then contactless payment. By comparison the
>> apps are much more fiddly.
>>
>>> Also displays live departures, so you can’t moan
>>> about not knowing the train running status from the comfort of your car.
>>
>> In fact, I've mainly talked about being "stood in the car park in the
>> rain", because that's where the ticket machine is often located. More
>> often than not, however, I will have walked to the station, but I
>> realise this is fairly unusual so didn't want to distract from the
>> general theory.
>>
>>> I await the reasons why this is now totally impractical……..
>>
>> As well as the above, it also requires the flow in question to have ITSO
>> ticketing as one of the options. And as I've said about a hundred times
>> over the past couple of years, while ITSO ticketing across their whole
>> network was a GTR franchise commitment which they should have delivered
>> long ago, they haven't.
>
>No it doesn’t. The app can deliver the ticket to the app’s wallet. This was
>one of your earlier requirements lest you forget.

*Only if* the particular journey you are embarking upon has that option.

NOT ALL OF THEM DO

This [understanding the lack of universality] is not rocket science.

>Now, let’s get this straight, you don’t want to use an app in case you are
>stood out in the rain on the canopy free platform, yet you are walking to
>the station.

If you want to go down that rathole (because you've lost the main
argument about universality of ticketing) ... holding an umbrella which
makes it difficult to also be prodding a phone. Especially in the dark.

>So I think we can now discount the weather as a spurious argument. So even
>if you prefer to use the TVM there’s absolutely no reason why you can’t use
>the app if the TVM doesn’t work.

Because the ticket I want isn't necessarily offered with that delivery
mode.

NOT ALL OF THEM DO
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>> on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them
>>>>>>> can wait
>>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading
>>>>>>> them when
>>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>> compromise
>>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>>>>> deliver
>>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern
>>>>>>>> ways to do
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>
>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>
>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>
> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>
> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
> about the underlying processes.
>
> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>
> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
> as just handing over a bit of paper.

The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.

In message <sp1vdd$u0s$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:43:57 on Sat, 11 Dec
2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 07:43:27 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>>>Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>>PDFs work everywhere.
>>
>>Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>
>You are aware of who owns whatsapp arn't you?

I don't think it's Adobe. The company whose software is so wobbly they
have to issue security updates far more frequently than one would like.

>And last time I looked it didn't work without an account set up.

Sure, but so does email.

>>But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>unsuitable.
>
>Quite. Paper tickets are universal, just work and should always be an option.

Perhaps you should read the thread, then you'd realise the ONLY REASON
for it is to discuss the situation where paper tickets aren't available
because the TVMs are broken.

My proposition is they should provide some more user-friendly
alternative at that point (such as PERTIS machine) than, well,
offering nothing at all and presumably assuming people can eat
cake while buying a ticket on their smartphone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <oo89rg11citi141b21k2nufu0s0qn3dgbh@4ax.com>, at 13:17:54 on
Sat, 11 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 08:02:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>>
>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>
>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>
>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>> unsuitable.
>>>
>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>
>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>
>>Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>>viewing pdfs?
>
>I'm an Android user, and my default web browser (Chrome, obviously) does
>support viewing PDFs.

That's all very well, but the emails on my phone arrive in an app (one
that was recommended the last time this whole subject blew up) and not
in a browser.

>What Android does do, by default, unless you tell it not to, is present
>you with a choice of app to launch in order to view PDFs from within an
>email. That can be irritating, but you can override that by setting a
>permanent file association with the app of your choice.

I've scoured the settings of my email app, and can't find that.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp9hte$u55$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:42:38 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp899l$j07$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sp7t6k$vot$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sp7s8a$dhf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:50 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sp7ob7$ukf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:07 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <5le3YYTK0=s9NL3Z5LJXMYJlxRqd@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>> 14:28:12 on Mon,
>>>>>>>>>>> 13 Dec 2021, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But still requires launching and logging-in to Adobe. Which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course
>>>>>>>>>>>>> once again requires connectivity (to facilitate the log-in).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't. You bypass the login screen by clicking the cross in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the top right hand corner.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not at all obvious that this would circumvent the need
>>>>>>>>>>> to log in,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than closing the app.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even knowing you, I'm astonished at the heavy weather you're
>>>>>>>>>> making of this
>>>>>>>>>> trivial, self-inflicted problem!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I didn't inflict the brain-dead last century ticket delivery
>>>>>>>>> mechanism upon myself. That was Greater Anglia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's how many tickets of all sorts get routinely delivered (eg, to
>>>>>>>> exhibitions, cinemas, shows, etc). I've never heard of any
>>>>>>>> ordinary person,
>>>>>>>> even non-techie oldies, having a problem — just you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But most of those are not required in real time when you've arrived at
>>>>>>> the station to find the TVM broken.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I have ordered such tickets, weeks in advance, on my PC, not my
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why don’t you order the tickets in advance, eg when leaving home?
>>>>>> Then it’s
>>>>>> irrelevant what the working status of the TVM is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because I don't want to spend that much time ordering tickets costing
>>>>> typically less than £3 each, in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just like I'd rather pay a bus fare in ten seconds when boarding, rather
>>>>> than have to order it in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or do you randomly pass the station and suddenly decide you want to
>>>>>> make a trip?
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite often my choice, depending on where we are on the clockface, is to
>>>>> catch a bus or a train.
>>>>>
>>>>> And too many times I've got to the station and found the train has been
>>>>> cancelled, so rather than wait an hour for the next one, decide to
>>>>> abandon the trip until another day.
>>>>
>>>> After exploring the ITSO feature of the EMR app I had a closer look at the
>>>> e-ticket bit. It offers to deliver the e-ticket to the in app wallet, or by
>>>> email, where I can then save it to Apple Wallet. So your objection to email
>>>> vanishes as the app can save the ticket.
>>>
>>> The EMT ITSO app (which I not only have, but used) is interoperable with
>>> Greater Anglia ITSO validators. I've mentioned this in the past - and
>>> noted it's probably due to both TOCs being associated with Abellio.
>>>
>>> But that's a rare glimmer of hope.
>>>
>>>> So at this point I can’t see how it is any harder to use than the TVM,
>>>> and you could do it from the car in the station car park.
>>>
>>> Buying a ticket from the TVM is about four presses. Because my
>>> destination will be one of the short-list of favourites, and all that's
>>> required then is picking the ticket type, plus two more presses for
>>> myself if using a railcard. Then contactless payment. By comparison the
>>> apps are much more fiddly.
>>>
>>>> Also displays live departures, so you can’t moan
>>>> about not knowing the train running status from the comfort of your car.
>>>
>>> In fact, I've mainly talked about being "stood in the car park in the
>>> rain", because that's where the ticket machine is often located. More
>>> often than not, however, I will have walked to the station, but I
>>> realise this is fairly unusual so didn't want to distract from the
>>> general theory.
>>>
>>>> I await the reasons why this is now totally impractical……..
>>>
>>> As well as the above, it also requires the flow in question to have ITSO
>>> ticketing as one of the options. And as I've said about a hundred times
>>> over the past couple of years, while ITSO ticketing across their whole
>>> network was a GTR franchise commitment which they should have delivered
>>> long ago, they haven't.
>>
>> No it doesn’t. The app can deliver the ticket to the app’s wallet. This was
>> one of your earlier requirements lest you forget.
>
> *Only if* the particular journey you are embarking upon has that option.
>
> NOT ALL OF THEM DO
>
> This [understanding the lack of universality] is not rocket science.
>
>> Now, let’s get this straight, you don’t want to use an app in case you are
>> stood out in the rain on the canopy free platform, yet you are walking to
>> the station.
>
> If you want to go down that rathole (because you've lost the main
> argument about universality of ticketing) ... holding an umbrella which
> makes it difficult to also be prodding a phone. Especially in the dark.
>
>> So I think we can now discount the weather as a spurious argument. So even
>> if you prefer to use the TVM there’s absolutely no reason why you can’t use
>> the app if the TVM doesn’t work.
>
> Because the ticket I want isn't necessarily offered with that delivery
> mode.
>
> NOT ALL OF THEM DO

I don’t think I ever claimed every flow did. My original query to you was
to ask what was wrong with pdf tickets delivered by email. Clearly if a pdf
ticket doesn’t exist it can’t be delivered by email. You gave a long series
of goat herder reasons why you couldn’t possibly cope with email delivery.
One of your requirements became that the app had to have its own wallet.
This is shown to be solved. Then you couldn’t stand in the rain but can
simultaneously walk to the station.

Having enquired elsewhere this seems to be the state of e-ticketing
acceptance:
SouthEastern: no but possibly changing now they are nationalised
Scotrail: have their own m-ticket solution, but changing to e-ticket
Mersey rail: supposed to accept them, but nobody seems to have briefed the
staff
TfW: nobody seems sure what the state of play is (anyone know?)
TfL: patchy with ongoing arguments about who is going to pay for upgrades
to barriers

In message <sp21t8$a4a$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:31 on Sat, 11 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 11/12/2021 07:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>>accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading
>>>>>them when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>>>deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern
>>>>>>ways to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere.

>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one
>>shoving itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you
>>"sign in with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>
>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense
>>>installed.

>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>unsuitable.

>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies
>>that some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>
>Have you looked at the TfW app and website? They're well integrated.
>
>The website seems to give m-ticket, collect from ticket machines, and
>PDF tickets.

For every possible flow? What does it say for Ely to Liverpool St, for
which the GA only offered TOD when I tried it last week.

>Here are the penalty fare regulations:-
>https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made
>
>I note that "if there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a
>travel ticket for that passenger’s journey" then the regulations
>don't apply.

The train company, however, has to accept that there *was* a lack of
facilities. What if they claim the facilities were working just fine?

>The regulations also seem to prevent a penalty charge if you have the
>means to pay but are unable to use that method. This seems to me that
>if you have a card but there is only a cash only machine or have cash
>but it is a card only machine

That's a whole new can of worms. I'm not completely convinced that this
line of argument would fly.

And what if one has (as is indeed the case) been assured the TVMs take
"all major credit cards" only to discover they refuse to accept Amex?

>then you are entitled to obtain your ticket on the train or at your
>destination.

The rules I've seen have said something like "at the earliest
opportunity", and very few trains (in the grand scheme of things) have
on-board ticket sellers, meanwhile I've read of people being
successfully prosecuted when they failed to buy a ticket (and as a
result potentially miss their connection) at a station where they
changed trains.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 19:35:13 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <sp7tef$18se$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:47:11 on Mon, 13 Dec
>2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:06:05 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <sp7pqc$19tb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:45:16 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>WhatsApp is free, which is good for international calls, and also does
>>>>>video calls, and group (conference) calls. The people you are messaging
>>>>
>>>>So do a boatload of apps without having to sign up to facebooks T&Cs.
>>>
>>>The only one which comes close is Skype, and that's been part of the
>>>Microsoft empire for years.
>>
>>Zoom, Jabber, Slack, MS Teams.
>
>Jabber, Grand-dad?

Used extensively by a number of corporates including Airbus.

>Never met anyone who uses Slack.

See above. I've worked at 1 UK SME and 1 international in the last 5 years who
used it. Seems you're rather out of touch with the modern corporate world.

>>Define seamless.
>
>Take a photo, and broadcast it, all in a couple of clicks on the same
>phone.

Picture messaging could do that 20 years ago.

>>In which case you're retired full stop since someone with a sense of self
>>importance such as yourself would have updated your linkedin long ago.
>
>I've not used Linked-In for at least five years. It's a zombie site,
>which has never lived up to its promise. Later... the photo is almost

Its an online CV. Not sure what "promise" you expect it to live up to unless
you're just irritated because it didn't lead to any head hunting of you.

In message <sp9m9u$d0m$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:57:34 on Tue, 14 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp9hte$u55$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:42:38 on Tue, 14 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp899l$j07$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sp7t6k$vot$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:43:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sp7s8a$dhf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:26:50 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sp7ob7$ukf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:07 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <5le3YYTK0=s9NL3Z5LJXMYJlxRqd@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 14:28:12 on Mon,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 13 Dec 2021, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But still requires launching and logging-in to Adobe. Which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once again requires connectivity (to facilitate the log-in).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it doesn't. You bypass the login screen by clicking the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>cross in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the top right hand corner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not at all obvious that this would circumvent the need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to log in,
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than closing the app.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even knowing you, I'm astonished at the heavy weather you're
>>>>>>>>>>> making of this
>>>>>>>>>>> trivial, self-inflicted problem!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But I didn't inflict the brain-dead last century ticket delivery
>>>>>>>>>> mechanism upon myself. That was Greater Anglia.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's how many tickets of all sorts get routinely delivered (eg, to
>>>>>>>>> exhibitions, cinemas, shows, etc). I've never heard of any
>>>>>>>>> ordinary person,
>>>>>>>>> even non-techie oldies, having a problem — just you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But most of those are not required in real time when you've arrived at
>>>>>>>> the station to find the TVM broken.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I have ordered such tickets, weeks in advance, on my PC, not my
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don’t you order the tickets in advance, eg when leaving
>>>>>>> Then it’s irrelevant what the working status of the TVM is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because I don't want to spend that much time ordering tickets costing
>>>>>> typically less than £3 each, in advance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just like I'd rather pay a bus fare in ten seconds when boarding, rather
>>>>>> than have to order it in advance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or do you randomly pass the station and suddenly decide you want to
>>>>>>> make a trip?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite often my choice, depending on where we are on the clockface, is to
>>>>>> catch a bus or a train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And too many times I've got to the station and found the train has been
>>>>>> cancelled, so rather than wait an hour for the next one, decide to
>>>>>> abandon the trip until another day.
>>>>>
>>>>> After exploring the ITSO feature of the EMR app I had a closer
>>>>>look at the e-ticket bit. It offers to deliver the e-ticket to the
>>>>>in app wallet, or by email, where I can then save it to Apple
>>>>>Wallet. So your objection to email vanishes as the app can save the ticket.
>>>>
>>>> The EMT ITSO app (which I not only have, but used) is interoperable with
>>>> Greater Anglia ITSO validators. I've mentioned this in the past - and
>>>> noted it's probably due to both TOCs being associated with Abellio.
>>>>
>>>> But that's a rare glimmer of hope.
>>>>
>>>>> So at this point I can’t see how it is any harder to use than the TVM,
>>>>> and you could do it from the car in the station car park.
>>>>
>>>> Buying a ticket from the TVM is about four presses. Because my
>>>> destination will be one of the short-list of favourites, and all that's
>>>> required then is picking the ticket type, plus two more presses for
>>>> myself if using a railcard. Then contactless payment. By comparison the
>>>> apps are much more fiddly.
>>>>
>>>>> Also displays live departures, so you can’t moan
>>>>> about not knowing the train running status from the comfort of your car.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, I've mainly talked about being "stood in the car park in the
>>>> rain", because that's where the ticket machine is often located. More
>>>> often than not, however, I will have walked to the station, but I
>>>> realise this is fairly unusual so didn't want to distract from the
>>>> general theory.
>>>>
>>>>> I await the reasons why this is now totally impractical……..
>>>>
>>>> As well as the above, it also requires the flow in question to have ITSO
>>>> ticketing as one of the options. And as I've said about a hundred times
>>>> over the past couple of years, while ITSO ticketing across their whole
>>>> network was a GTR franchise commitment which they should have delivered
>>>> long ago, they haven't.
>>>
>>> No it doesn’t. The app can deliver the ticket to the app’s
>>>wallet. This was one of your earlier requirements lest you forget.
>>
>> *Only if* the particular journey you are embarking upon has that option.
>>
>> NOT ALL OF THEM DO
>>
>> This [understanding the lack of universality] is not rocket science.
>>
>>> Now, let’s get this straight, you don’t want to use an app in
>>>case you are stood out in the rain on the canopy free platform, yet
>>>are walking to the station.
>>
>> If you want to go down that rathole (because you've lost the main
>> argument about universality of ticketing) ... holding an umbrella which
>> makes it difficult to also be prodding a phone. Especially in the dark.
>>
>>> So I think we can now discount the weather as a spurious argument.
>>>So even if you prefer to use the TVM there’s absolutely no reason
>>>why you can’t use the app if the TVM doesn’t work.
>>
>> Because the ticket I want isn't necessarily offered with that delivery
>> mode.
>>
>> NOT ALL OF THEM DO
>
>I don’t think I ever claimed every flow did. My original query to you was
>to ask what was wrong with pdf tickets delivered by email.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 08:44:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <sp1vdd$u0s$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:43:57 on Sat, 11 Dec
>2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>>with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>
>>You are aware of who owns whatsapp arn't you?
>
>I don't think it's Adobe. The company whose software is so wobbly they
>have to issue security updates far more frequently than one would like.

When you use WhatsApp you have to sign up to Facebooks T&Cs.

>>Quite. Paper tickets are universal, just work and should always be an option.
>
>Perhaps you should read the thread, then you'd realise the ONLY REASON
>for it is to discuss the situation where paper tickets aren't available
>because the TVMs are broken.

If the ticket machines are broken then not buying a ticket is option #2.
If there's someone on the train selling them then great, otherwise you pay at
the other end. Or if there's no barriers then a free trip.

In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:

>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>could be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>wallet. Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>
>TfW can and do.

Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
claimed was only available TOD.

Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*

And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
register a new account to buy tickets."

Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sp86nf$vb1$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:25:35 on Mon, 13 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/12/2021 16:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t9s9rgts5sfakjo1d78082i3c5il3c1cve@4ax.com>, at 18:55:52 on
>>> Sat, 11 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WhatsApp has an API, which can be used to send a message to any number
>>>>>> registered with WhatsApp even if it isn't already known to you. So it
>>>>>> can be integrated into an online retail environment in a way which
>>>>>> allows a customer to supply their phone number and the system to then
>>>>>> send a message via WhatsApp to that number. From a business
>>>>>> perspective,
>>>>>> this is a very useful means of communicating with customers as
>>>>>> sending a
>>>>>> WhatsApp message is free, unlike SMS. Plus, of course, you can send
>>>>>> attachments, which you can't easily do with SMS. Abd unlike email and
>>>>>> SMS, WhatsApp has a delivery feedback mechanism built in so you know if
>>>>>> your message has reached the recipient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The downside, at the moment, is that access to the API is strictly
>>>>>> controlled (which it has to be, in order to prevent spammers using it),
>>>>>> and there are several hoops to jump through in order to get a Business
>>>>>> WhatsApp Account and be eligible for the API. So there are not, yet,
>>>>>> many organisations using it. But, in the long run, I expect it to
>>>>>> become
>>>>>> one of the primary means whereby businesses communicate with customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The real problem is tying your retail delivery system into a third
>>>>>party owned proprietary system, owned by an outfit with ever
>>>>>diminishing public and political trust.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that if you are selling a product which can be delivered
>>>> digitally, then it makes sense, from a customer service perspective, to
>>>> offer multiple means of delivery. Even assuming that the primary means
>>>> remains email (which is likely, at least for the foreseeable future), it
>>>> would be a useful add-on for ticket vendors to be able to have an extra,
>>>> optional field on the order page which says something like "Enter your
>>>> phone number here to get the ticket sent to you via WhatsApp". That
>>>> doesn't override, or replace, the email delivery mechanism, but it would
>>>> be useful for a large number of customers. If WhatsApp ever goes out of
>>>> fashion, or is supplanted by a different IM system, then alternatives
>>>> which offer a similar API facility could be implemented instead of, or
>>>> even alongside, WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Offering WhatsApp as an optional delivery mechanism is no more tying you
>>>> in to anything than offering traditional postal delivery of a printed
>>>> ticket ties you in to Royal Mail, or offering TVM printing ties you in
>>>> the machinery. On the contrary, the more different delivery mechanisms
>>>> you can offer, the less you and your customers are reliant on any single
>>>> one of them.
>>>
>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app, could
>>> be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket wallet.
>>> Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>
>> TfW can and do.
>
>Well the EMR app offers to add an Ely to Soham single to a smart card
>(can’t say what smart card, as the next step is to ask for my smart card
>number)

They'll probably accept a GA card [because it's also Abellio, not
because Ely and Soham are GA stations] as well as their own EMR one. I
have both :)

>or to email me a ticket.

PDF presumably. And of course the app (which is remarkably similar to
the GA app) does have a ticket wallet - why can't they use *that*?

>So perhaps Roland can use his beloved ITSO
>card after all. States there’s a maximum of 5 tickets that can go on said
>card.

Yes, that's a standard restriction nowadays. Not sure what aspect of the
systems are imposing it, I doubt it's the amount of storage on the card
itself.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sp9l43$ok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:37:23 on Tue, 14 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>>> on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple
>>>>>>>>>> accounts from different sources, several of which are high
>>>>>>>>>>volume), so my experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>>>need to read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most
>>>>>>>> can wait until I get back. But I don't have any real
>>>>>>>>difficulty reading them when I do need to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>>compromise when the train company is insisting on using 1992
>>>>>>>>> deliver train tickets, when there are numerous far better
>>>>>>>>>more modern ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>
>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>
>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>
>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>
>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>> about the underlying processes.
>>
>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>
>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>> as just handing over a bit of paper.
>
>The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.

I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to support)
as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in which case it
would require a facility to export to a different phone to properly
qualify.
--
Roland Perry

Am 14.12.2021 um 11:16 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <sp9l43$ok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:37:23 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.
>
> I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to support)
> as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in which case it
> would require a facility to export to a different phone to properly
> qualify.

Use case: you bought your ticket a month in advance and lost /destroyed
your phone (I've done both in the past).

Simple test is: run the same app with your credentials on two mobile
phones:
if the ticket is available in both it's an e-ticket in disguise, if the
ticket is missing, it's an m-ticket.

Typical UI hint for e-ticket is a menu item "synch my tickets"

Rolf

In message <57vergdjvd1mpct2pab9o4rtf4tb18b9ck@4ax.com>, at 17:15:16 on
Mon, 13 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:29:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sp0b4a$ro1$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:38 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> I have no control over the phone, or the apps I'm allowed to use.
>>>
>>>Well, there’s your trouble.
>>
>>We are where we are. And I won't be the only passenger in the same
>>circumstances.
>
>No, but it does put you in a small minority of the travelling public.
>The TOCs and ticket vendors, not unreasonably, tend to design their
>systems for the average traveller.

On one hand you are absolutely right - a significant majority of rail
journeys are undertaken by holders of season tickets and various
metro-area PAYG/Concessionary cards (of which Oyster and London Freedom
Pass are the best known) or metro area CCC PAYG. And last week I did a
trip on the Docklands light railway using a CCC (a whole £1.70, not a
ticket I'd have willingly bought in advance or wanted to faff about with
as a PDF).

On the other hand, taking all those trips out of the equation I doubt
that my walk-up ticketing requirements are the slightest bit unusual.
Indeed, I'm sure my use of e|m-ticketing for such things (where
available) is significantly ahead of the curve.

I have never, ever, seen anyone use the ITSO validators at my local
stations, for example.

>>>> On top of all the alerts for other things (Facebook postings in threads
>>>> I'm interested in, Tweets from people I follow, etc etc) it would be
>>>> wall to wall.
>>>
>>>Then configure the alert settings, for goodness’ sake!
>>
>>The alerts arise from swamping the phone with superfluous emails. I'm
>>not aware of a way that Android allows the user to fine-tune alerts by
>>filtering the stuff inside apps. Rather than saying "this app has
>>received this one of many things, you are now alerted".
>>
>>Are you suggesting that I can set something in Android that only alerts
>>me to emails arriving in gmail, that are from a specific shortlist of
>>senders?
>
>That would be app-specific, obviously. The Gmail app doesn't allow that
>level of granularity, but does allow notifications to be toggled
>independently for different accounts. So, for example, you could have
>allmytickets@gmail with notifications switched on, and othermail@gmail
>with notifications switched off.

So that's back to externalising the burden of filtering to the user by
having multiple email addresses with one exclusively for travel tickets
(something again I'm sure the average traveller doesn't do) rather than
being able to say "beep if anything arrives from

auto-confirm.greateranglia@trainsfares.co.uk "

Which isn't an address I think we could guess in advance anyway (that's
where tickets bought from their app arrive from).
--
Roland Perry

In message <sp9s3n$olr$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:40 on Tue, 14 Dec
2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 14.12.2021 um 11:16 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <sp9l43$ok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:37:23 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.

>> I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to
>>support) as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in
>>which case it would require a facility to export to a different phone
>>to properly qualify.
>
>Use case: you bought your ticket a month in advance and lost /destroyed
>your phone (I've done both in the past).
>
>Simple test is: run the same app with your credentials on two mobile
>phones:

>if the ticket is available in both it's an e-ticket in disguise, if the
>ticket is missing, it's an m-ticket.

I'll try that next time I manage to actually buy an in-app ticket.

One of the steps that's missing at GA (and I have a ticket in with their
helpline) is the way the descriptions of the process include a stage
where one can allegedly download what was purchased as a PDF ticket,
into the app.

But I can't see a menu option for doing that, and <paging Ken, again> it
didn't happen automatically for either of the two tickets I bought this
week (one on the GA website, the other through their app).

>Typical UI hint for e-ticket is a menu item "synch my tickets"

--
Roland Perry

In message <p159rgd01bj6isbuitbucdgplopp9fnbqh@4ax.com>, at 12:12:51 on
Sat, 11 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:44:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sov3pl$lb5$3@dont-email.me>, at 08:40:21 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ukp4rg9vb6s0teemqs6966pemgmr9i07ub@4ax.com>, at 20:38:24
>>>>on Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>>
>>>> The different apps are required because they have different features
>>>>(some of which are locked into the specific operator - although
>>>>recently I've seen some chinks of interoperability between different
>>>>Abellio franchises).
>>
>>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>>>as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
>>>>ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>>
>>So they can see which of those suppliers leaked the address to spammers.
>
>Why not just set up a Gmail account and use plus adressing, supported
>by Gmail, M365 and some other providers? Then you have just one email
>address but can distinguish their purpose by the part you provided
>after the + sign when you registered or transacted with them.
>
>So, if you set up rperrytickets@gmail.com then the email adddress that
>you provide to the TOCs is rperrytickets+ga@gmail,com,
>rperrytickets+gtr@gmail.com, rperrytickets.+xc@gmail.com and so on.

gmail is not my main email provider. Setting up "extra" accounts for the
sake of rail ticketing is a philosophical barrier, irrespective of how
one generates multiple extra addresses.

>>Also, it helps filter emails into folders, although I tend to do that by
>>using the sender address rather than additional email addresses.
>>
>>But when I wanted all my delay-repay claims (from three TOCs to begin
>>with) automatically sorted into one folder, I did create new email
>>addresses for them. Not least because they send the replies from a
>>generic address, not one specifically associated with delay-repay
>>claims.

--
Roland Perry

On 14/12/2021 08:37, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>>> on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them
>>>>>>>> can wait
>>>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading
>>>>>>>> them when
>>>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>> compromise
>>>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>>>>>> deliver
>>>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern
>>>>>>>>> ways to do
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>
>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>
>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>
>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>
>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>> about the underlying processes.
>>
>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>
>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>> as just handing over a bit of paper.
>
> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.
>
TfW introduced their new apps with m-tickets nine days ago and their
integrated new website which will push tickets to your app within the
time it takes to pick up your phone. So not all the ToCs are removing
m-tickets.

In message <3f59rgl8a60k6mpfdi87j8tf74nt1d273l@4ax.com>, at 12:14:58 on
Sat, 11 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:14:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <3o26rgldmt59ln4p41vh2soqfl90tg66k2@4ax.com>, at 08:11:29 on
>>Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:11:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <57rrqgp2qelb6cfe8sjj3otebr3aeikhen@4ax.com>, at 11:00:46 on
>>>>Mon, 6 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>>>>>>>very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>>>>>>>convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>>>>>>>change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>>>>>>well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>>>>>>inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>>>>>>specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>>>>>>>through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Emailing pdfs is also very clunky - why can't they push the tickets to
>>>>>>the booking app, in the same way Google Play pushes new apps to your
>>>>>>phone?
>>>>>
>>>>>As I have said at least twice this is exactly what does happen, with
>>>>>GA at least. Buy a ticket from the app or on the web and they just
>>>>>appear in the app ready for use.
>>>>
>>>>I'll give it another go when I have some time. But I can absolutely
>>>>assure you that the other day when I tried this, the options the GA
>>>>website gave for a selection of mystery purchases did not all include a
>>>>pdf option, let alone a deliver-to-app version.
>>>>
>>>>As far as I could see they were also significantly averse to e-ticketing
>>>>south of Tottenham Hale. Is that some issue with the barriers at
>>>>Liverpool St, or some conflict with the Oyster zoning?
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps you could name a station pair where you know it to work (I'm not
>>>>claiming it's never available, but GA's ticketing is very inconsistent,
>>>>hence probably why there's been three different and incompatible lists
>>>>at large as to what to expect to work, or not).
>>>
>>>It worked for Bishop's Stortford to Liverpool St. just fine.
>>
>>I'll see what the website offers. But...
>>
>>>Note that in my earlier replies I never claimed you were offered the
>>>option to have an mTicket. Just that if you select pdf you seem to get
>>>a single ticket than can be used as a pdf (e.g. printed) and also
>>>apears in 'My Tickets' on the GA app.
>>
>>...I wonder why they don't tell customers that might happen?
>>
>>That's a bit of a big mystery purchase to make, but I might have a poke
>>around to see what cheaper fares there are. Mountfitchet to BS perhaps
>>(I can get that down to £1.30 with a fictional Student Discount).
>
>That works. I bought one the other day (in the reverse direction) when
>traffic in Stortford meant that my lift would be from Mountfitchet but
>my rail ticket only went to BIS.

Off we go then...

And... "We'll email your tickets shortly to your registered address for
you to show on your phone or print. You can also download your ticket to
your iOS or Android app".

But how? Not terribly useful that the link to their help pages:

<https://greateranglia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/greateranglia.cfg/php/endus
er/std_alp.php>

....is broken. <sigh> and <sigh> again.
--
Roland Perry

In message <jl5frg91mcaoougmr7qqf5f7tps52pg4t1@4ax.com>, at 18:57:24 on
Mon, 13 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:45:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sov5ho$27d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:10:16 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 19:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute
>>>>>>> using their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on
>>>>>>> pain of a £100 fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out
>>>>>> of the car.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't stop you going back to the car to get out f the rain or even
>>>> sheltering under the station canopy while you order the ticket. No need
>>>> to stand in the rain.
>>>
>>>The real point is that once you can cope with buying electronic tickets,
>>>which seems to be Roland’s problem, you don’t need to worry about the
>>>existence of a TVM, rain or no rain.
>>
>>The problem is the patchy nature of e-ticketing.
>>
>>>So far his arguments have been that he doesn’t like the apps (excuses
>>>various), so folk have suggested he uses the emailed pdf, which then
>>>generates a long list of spurious reasons why that’s not workable either.
>>
>>The reasons aren't spurious, and only arise because the e-ticketing
>>platform is unable (by design) to deliver the tickets to my phone by a
>>less last-century method.
>>
>>Or as I've found out the last couple of days, unable to deliver them at
>>all. ["We've emailed you the PDF" - panto 'oh no you haven't']
>
>It sounds very much to me as if you've managed to log in to the app
>using a different email address to the one you used to buy the tickets
>(you did create an account rather than buy as a guest, I hope?).

I haven't made that rookie mistake! And it's something I specifically
double-checked before buying my tickets a few days ago.

And of course that wouldn't explain the lack-of-arrival of the PDF (when
I did get the order confirmation) for the first one.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jl5frg91mcaoougmr7qqf5f7tps52pg4t1@4ax.com>, at 18:57:24 on
> Mon, 13 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:45:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sov5ho$27d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:10:16 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 09/12/2021 19:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>>>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>>>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>>>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute
>>>>>>>> using their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on
>>>>>>>> pain of a £100 fine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out
>>>>>>> of the car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't stop you going back to the car to get out f the rain or even
>>>>> sheltering under the station canopy while you order the ticket. No need
>>>>> to stand in the rain.
>>>>
>>>> The real point is that once you can cope with buying electronic tickets,
>>>> which seems to be Roland’s problem, you don’t need to worry about the
>>>> existence of a TVM, rain or no rain.
>>>
>>> The problem is the patchy nature of e-ticketing.
>>>
>>>> So far his arguments have been that he doesn’t like the apps (excuses
>>>> various), so folk have suggested he uses the emailed pdf, which then
>>>> generates a long list of spurious reasons why that’s not workable either.
>>>
>>> The reasons aren't spurious, and only arise because the e-ticketing
>>> platform is unable (by design) to deliver the tickets to my phone by a
>>> less last-century method.
>>>
>>> Or as I've found out the last couple of days, unable to deliver them at
>>> all. ["We've emailed you the PDF" - panto 'oh no you haven't']
>>
>> It sounds very much to me as if you've managed to log in to the app
>> using a different email address to the one you used to buy the tickets
>> (you did create an account rather than buy as a guest, I hope?).
>
> I haven't made that rookie mistake! And it's something I specifically
> double-checked before buying my tickets a few days ago.
>
> And of course that wouldn't explain the lack-of-arrival of the PDF (when
> I did get the order confirmation) for the first one.
>

Was it spam trapped?

In message <sp9tvg$qv$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:32 on Tue, 14 Dec 2021,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 14/12/2021 08:37, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>>>> on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I
>>>>>>>>> need to read large numbers of emails while out and about.
>>>>>>>>>Most of them can wait until I get back. But I don't have any
>>>>>>>>>real difficulty reading them when I do need to.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>>>compromise when the train company is insisting on using 1992
>>>>>>>>>> deliver train tickets, when there are numerous far better
>>>>>>>>>>more modern ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>
>>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>>
>>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>>
>>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>>
>>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>>> about the underlying processes.
>>>
>>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>>
>>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>>> as just handing over a bit of paper.

>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop
>>worrying.
>>
>TfW introduced their new apps with m-tickets nine days ago and their
>integrated new website which will push tickets to your app within the
>time it takes to pick up your phone. So not all the ToCs are removing
>m-tickets.

Genuine question: are those tickets transferable to a different phone?

I'd try that out, as well as the auto-push to the wallet, if I didn't
have to set up a fresh account. Well, not this week, anyway.
--
Roland Perry