On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:38:44 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sov8te$n5e$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:43 on Fri, 10 Dec
>2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>>>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic. You
>>>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.
>
>>> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer
>>>why I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies
>>>fining me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?
>>
>>I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
>>their TVMs are broken.
>
>They threaten to, or at least don't give any comfort to passengers that
>it's OK to pay at your destination in such circumstances.

One edge case: I was unable to use a fully working (so far as I know)
TVM because the glare from the sun meant that I couldn't see what was
displayed.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 08:48:53 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>>>> unsuitable.
>>>>>
>>>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>>>
>>>> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>>>> viewing pdfs?
>>>
>>> What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
>>> attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
>>> person unwilling to sign-in-to.
>>>
>>> I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.
>>
>> None of this is convincing me that I’ve overpaid to have an iPhone. I’ve
>> just double checked with a test - a pdf email attachment opens within the
>> AppleMail email client, no Adobe tools required. I then have the option of
>> sending the file elsewhere to preserve it. Apple Books is my favourite
>> place, as,it archives pdfs in their own area. If it were to be an e-ticket
>> things would be configured by the sender to allow the ticket to go to my
>> Apple Wallet.
>>
>> Obviously I’m only seeing this through the prism of, mainly Roland’s,
>> second hand reports. However it seems that Android has useability issues.
>
> The problem is the prism.
>

I sort of suspected as much, as I can’t believe Android could be so bad.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:03:24 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>>> might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>>> hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>>> this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>>>
>>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>>>> £100 fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>>>> the car.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>>
>>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if the
>>> TVM is working or not.
>>
>> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>>
>> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
>> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
>> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
>> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>>
>> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
>> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>>
>> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
>> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
>> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
>> later).
>
>My reaction would be I don’t need to even contemplate the bus driver’s
>broken ticket machine, because I’ve tapped on, or I’ve purchased a ticket
>on my phone. Even here in the East Midlands we’ve done away with the need
>to buy tickets on the bus.

Not universal. I posted recently about a trip to Bury St Edmunds where
the local bus operator, another fully paid up member of the Society of
Goatherders, refused my PlusBus ticket and only accepted cash. A d
here is deepest Essex I can use contactless on my local
coincil-supported servive but there's no way of paying a fare in
advance.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:42:26 +0000
>Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>On 10/12/2021 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their*
>>>>>>> convenience.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>>>>> £100 fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>>>>> the car.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>>>
>>>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if
>>>> the
>>>> TVM is working or not.
>>>
>>> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>>>
>>> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
>>> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
>>> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
>>> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>>>
>>> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
>>> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>>>
>>> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
>>> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
>>> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
>>> later).
>>
>>Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>
>Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
>do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>seat with first?

It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
the fare is related to the distance,

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:33:54 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <sp1v69$r5q$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:40:09 on Sat, 11 Dec
>2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 19:51:38 -0000 (UTC)
>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>>Well, until you give in to the entreaties to install Adobe Acrobat Reader
>>>DC or whatever it’s called, which keeps trying to log you into
>Adobe’s
>>>systems every time it opens. I deleted it. No, I can’t fill in PDF
>forms
>>>any more. I don’t care.
>>
>>And I'm not interested in installing some Billy No Mates data trawling garbage
>
>>from facebook.
>
>In which case you'll be blissfully ignorant (now there's a first, NOT)
>that the people you communicate with on WhatsApp are *only* your mates.

I've discovered this wonderful invention called a phone whereby you can
actually speak to someone rather than converse in 2 line snippets, which lets
face it , is a way people "keep in touch" when they really don't want to be
bothered to actually do so.

As for work - we use email and slack because they work on a PC. But then you
can probably do what little work is involved with your wafflefest non job in a
few lines of text every hour or so.

>That's what makes it such a useful app (no outsiders, spammers etc).

Thats like saying a kids scooter is "useful" transport when comparing it to a
car.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:24:10 +0000
Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>>>Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>>
>>Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
>>do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>>seat with first?
>
>It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
>inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
>journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
>the fare is related to the distance,

I don't think I've seen a bus inspector since the 1980s. Do they still exist?

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:24:10 +0000
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>>> Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>>>
>>> Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
>>> do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>>> seat with first?
>>
>> It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
>> inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
>> journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
>> the fare is related to the distance,
>
> I don't think I've seen a bus inspector since the 1980s. Do they still exist?
>
>

I thought they descended en-mass on TfL buses, if the reality TV programmes
are to be believed.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 07:57:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08 on
>Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>
>>The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>
>But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
>receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
>are forwarding one they bought for you.

WhatsApp has an API, which can be used to send a message to any number
registered with WhatsApp even if it isn't already known to you. So it
can be integrated into an online retail environment in a way which
allows a customer to supply their phone number and the system to then
send a message via WhatsApp to that number. From a business perspective,
this is a very useful means of communicating with customers as sending a
WhatsApp message is free, unlike SMS. Plus, of course, you can send
attachments, which you can't easily do with SMS. Abd unlike email and
SMS, WhatsApp has a delivery feedback mechanism built in so you know if
your message has reached the recipient.

The downside, at the moment, is that access to the API is strictly
controlled (which it has to be, in order to prevent spammers using it),
and there are several hoops to jump through in order to get a Business
WhatsApp Account and be eligible for the API. So there are not, yet,
many organisations using it. But, in the long run, I expect it to become
one of the primary means whereby businesses communicate with customers.

Mark

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 07:57:26 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08 on
>> Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>
>>> The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>> used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>> supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>> it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>
>> But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
>> receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
>> are forwarding one they bought for you.
>
> WhatsApp has an API, which can be used to send a message to any number
> registered with WhatsApp even if it isn't already known to you. So it
> can be integrated into an online retail environment in a way which
> allows a customer to supply their phone number and the system to then
> send a message via WhatsApp to that number. From a business perspective,
> this is a very useful means of communicating with customers as sending a
> WhatsApp message is free, unlike SMS. Plus, of course, you can send
> attachments, which you can't easily do with SMS. Abd unlike email and
> SMS, WhatsApp has a delivery feedback mechanism built in so you know if
> your message has reached the recipient.
>
> The downside, at the moment, is that access to the API is strictly
> controlled (which it has to be, in order to prevent spammers using it),
> and there are several hoops to jump through in order to get a Business
> WhatsApp Account and be eligible for the API. So there are not, yet,
> many organisations using it. But, in the long run, I expect it to become
> one of the primary means whereby businesses communicate with customers.
>
> Mark
>

The real problem is tying your retail delivery system into a third party
owned proprietary system, owned by an outfit with ever diminishing public
and political trust.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>nonsense installed.
>>
>>WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>
>>The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>
>Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>info? No.
>Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.

Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
bothered to think about it before posting that.

>Feck that.

You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
res of us to care.

Mark

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 08:02:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>
>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>
>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>
>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>
>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>> unsuitable.
>>
>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>
>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>
>Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>viewing pdfs?

I'm an Android user, and my default web browser (Chrome, obviously) does
support viewing PDFs.

What Android does do, by default, unless you tell it not to, is present
you with a choice of app to launch in order to view PDFs from within an
email. That can be irritating, but you can override that by setting a
permanent file association with the app of your choice.

Mark

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>
>>> The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>> used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>> supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>> it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>
>> Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>> info? No.
>> Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.
>
> Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
> question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
> bothered to think about it before posting that.
>
>> Feck that.
>
> You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
> res of us to care.
>
> Mark
>

https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/social-media/what-does-whatsapp-know-about-me/

Contacts

WhatsApp also collects information you might have about your friends and
other contacts through the app. While you can choose to add contacts one at
a time, most people allow WhatsApp to add their entire contact list to the
app in one go. This means WhatsApp automatically has access to all this
information: phone numbers, names, and whether or not they use WhatsApp
themselves.

This has far-reaching consequences: even if you don’t use WhatsApp
yourself, one of your friends probably does. WhatsApp may get your contact
information through their contact list. In other words, WhatsApp could have
your phone number, email, and other contact information in its database,
even when you’ve never downloaded the app yourself. All thanks to one of
your friends and their contact list.

Of course, this applies the other way around as well. WhatsApp might have
access to all contacts in your phone, even if these people don’t use
WhatsApp. As long as you have the app and allow it to look at your contact
list, their data is no longer completely private.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:41:33 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:24:10 +0000
>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>>>Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>>>
>>>Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
>>>do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>>>seat with first?
>>
>>It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
>>inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
>>journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
>>the fare is related to the distance,
>
>I don't think I've seen a bus inspector since the 1980s. Do they still exist?

In London I think they've been replaced by swat teams.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 08:42:17 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <fkg6rg5n2nql0rhoc9kddc6r6f1ejhkm1m@4ax.com>, at 12:13:41 on
>Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:

>>I don't know. A simple QR code would be the most sensible option,
>>because that can be delivered by any mechanism and displayed on any
>>device
>
>Not much use when my ITSO card hasn't got a screen!

That's not a mobile device, though.

>>(and, as a last resort, can be printed, even if you have to
>>screenshot it to do so).
>
>I think some TOCs expressly forbid screenshots. As an anti-cloning
>measure I think.

You can't prevent it completely.

>>Given the choice between email and an app, I'd choose email because
>>that Just Plain Works without me needing to install another app,
>
>But to get a reasonable experience on my phone (and after much
>discussion and recommendation here) I've had to install a new email app.
>
>>and having been sent to me it's accessible on any device I own
>
>Only if that's how your email is set up. Most people I know with
>smartphones can't (or don't seen able to) access the email they
>send/recive on that, at home on a PC.

I think your bubble is very atypical.

The four most commonly used consumer email systems - Gmail, Apple
(including iCloud, me.com and mac.com), Microsoft (including
outlook.com, MSN, Hotmail and live.com) and Yahoo (including ISP
variants such as BTInternet) cover, between them, well over 75% of the
total email market. All of those have their own dedicated mobile apps as
well as being accessible via webmail or a PC mail client, and all of
them are suported natively by the most common mobile email apps. And the
vast majority of other email providers use IMAP, which is also supported
by all the mobile email apps as well as desktop email clients. The one
significant exception to the dominance of IMAP is Microsoft Exchange,
but that, too, is natively supported by the most common mobile apps as
well as having its own desktop client and, for hosted Exchange (Office
365), a webmail interface. For consumer email (which is, of course, the
biggest demographic of TOC customers), the use of an email system which
only permits access from mobile but not PC (or vice versa) can only be
the result of a deliberate, extremely esoteric choice.

Business email is a little more complex, as many businesses use an
internal Exchange or IMAP server which isn't accessible to the outside
world, and hence email received on it can only be accessed from within
the Intranet. In which case, it won't be accessible to mobile apps, or
to home PCs, unless the organisation also provides a VPN endpoint for
its staff. But organisations large enough and/or tech-savvy enough to
run their own IMAP or Exchange server, rather than using a hosted system
(such as Office 365 for Business or Business Gmail Suite) will, at least
in theory, also have the knowledge and expertise to ensue that if staff
require access to business emails while on the move, they can get it.
And if they don't, that is their problem rather than somebody else's.

>>But, as I said elsewhere in this discussion, I'd quite like the option
>>to get a ticket via WhatsApp. WhatsApp's push mechanism is more reliable
>>than email and, because it won't be competing for my attention with
>>potentially hundreds of emails, it will be much easier to spot in my
>>message list. And, like email, once I've downloaded the ticket once
>>(either a PDF or an image), it will be available offline until I
>>explicitly delete it.
>
>What sort of closed group of vendors do you expect to have registered to
>your WhatsApp?

If they have a Business WhatsApp account and are using the API, I don't
need to have them registered in my WhatsApp. All I need to do is supply
them with my phone number.

Mark

On 11/12/2021 11:26, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 11/12/2021 07:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>> need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can
>>>>> wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them
>>>>> when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>> compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>>> deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways
>>>>>> to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>
>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>
>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>
>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>
>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>> unsuitable.
>>
>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies
>> that some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>
>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>
> Have you looked at the TfW app and website?  They're well integrated.
>
> The website seems to give m-ticket, collect from ticket machines, and
> PDF tickets.
>
>
>
> Here are the penalty fare regulations:-
> https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made
>
> I note that "if there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a
> travel ticket for that passenger’s journey" then the regulations don't
> apply.
>
> The regulations also seem to prevent a penalty charge if you have the
> means to pay but are unable to use that method.  This seems to me that
> if you have a card but there is only a cash only machine or have cash
> but it is a card only machine then you are entitled to obtain your
> ticket on the train or at your destination.

Unfortunately there seem to be some officious jobsworths revenue
protection people (RPI) who don't always believe passengers.

I recently read on another forum about a person, unable to buy a West
Yorkshire day rover from a TVM, and told by a guard to buy it at Leeds.
After alighting, they went straight to the place by the barrier to pay
for the ticket, but some obnoxious RPI appeared and issued a penalty
notice.

On 11/12/2021 12:17, Ken wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:38:44 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <sov8te$n5e$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:43 on Fri, 10 Dec
>> 2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>> Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>>> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>>>>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic. You
>>>>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.
>>
>>>> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer
>>>> why I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies
>>>> fining me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?
>>>
>>> I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
>>> their TVMs are broken.
>>
>> They threaten to, or at least don't give any comfort to passengers that
>> it's OK to pay at your destination in such circumstances.
>
> One edge case: I was unable to use a fully working (so far as I know)
> TVM because the glare from the sun meant that I couldn't see what was
> displayed.

Amazing how often installers of such machines don't take the sun into
account. After all we do see it occasionally in this country.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/12/2021 12:41, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:24:10 +0000
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>>> Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>>>
>>> Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
>>> do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>>> seat with first?
>>
>> It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
>> inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
>> journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
>> the fare is related to the distance,
>
> I don't think I've seen a bus inspector since the 1980s. Do they still exist?
>

Do round here.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:09:18 +0000
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>nonsense installed.
>>>
>>>WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>
>>>The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>>used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>>supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>>it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>
>>Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>>info? No.
>>Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.
>
>Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
>question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
>bothered to think about it before posting that.

Really? Oh ok. You'll be able to tell us how to use whatsapp on a PC or Mac
without requiring a phone then.

Take your time...

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:59:10 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:24:10 +0000
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>>>>
>>>> Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down.
>What
>>>> do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>>>> seat with first?
>>>
>>> It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
>>> inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
>>> journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
>>> the fare is related to the distance,
>>
>> I don't think I've seen a bus inspector since the 1980s. Do they still exist?
>
>>
>>
>
>I thought they descended en-mass on TfL buses, if the reality TV programmes
>are to be believed.

I seen them now and then at tube stations, don't remember ever seeing the
revenue lot on the bus. Perhaps its only on the routes that go past the
shithole gang infested estates. Sorry, I mean the vibrant rainbow diversity
communities.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:23:57 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
>> res of us to care.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
>https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/social-media/what-does-whatsapp-know-about-me/
>
>Contacts
>
>WhatsApp also collects information you might have about your friends and
>other contacts through the app. While you can choose to add contacts one at
>a time, most people allow WhatsApp to add their entire contact list to the
>app in one go. This means WhatsApp automatically has access to all this
>information: phone numbers, names, and whether or not they use WhatsApp
>themselves.

Sshhh, don't tell him. Facebook relies on clueless mugs like him to harvest
the data for their income.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>>
>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>
>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>
>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>> unsuitable.
>>>
>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>
>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>
>> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>> viewing pdfs?
>
> What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
> attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
> person unwilling to sign-in-to.
>
> I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.

I have an Android phone and use the FastMail app, which seems happy enough
to display PDFs without invoking any other software. It gives me the
option of downloading attachments and I also have an Adobe Acrobat Reader
which I don’t ever remember configuring and it certainly doesn’t ask me to
log into anything. It does have an ad on the front screen offering a free
trial of extra features. Based on experience of my desktop iMac there is
another Acrobat Reader (DC?) which does a keep asking you to log in, and
I’ve deleted that one because of that nagware characteristic; Apple’s
Preview works perfectly well.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:41:33 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 12:24:10 +0000
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:11:46 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>>>>
>>>> Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
>>>> do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
>>>> seat with first?
>>>
>>> It shows that the driver hasn't pocketed your fare. It shows an
>>> inspector that not only have you paid but you've paid for the entire
>>> journey in those places (almost everywhere that isn't London) where
>>> the fare is related to the distance,
>>
>> I don't think I've seen a bus inspector since the 1980s. Do they still exist?
>
> In London I think they've been replaced by swat teams.

Dressed in black, abseiling off the roof of the Boris bus and smashing
through the windows? Cool!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> WhatsApp has an API, which can be used to send a message to any number
>> registered with WhatsApp even if it isn't already known to you. So it
>> can be integrated into an online retail environment in a way which
>> allows a customer to supply their phone number and the system to then
>> send a message via WhatsApp to that number. From a business perspective,
>> this is a very useful means of communicating with customers as sending a
>> WhatsApp message is free, unlike SMS. Plus, of course, you can send
>> attachments, which you can't easily do with SMS. Abd unlike email and
>> SMS, WhatsApp has a delivery feedback mechanism built in so you know if
>> your message has reached the recipient.
>>
>> The downside, at the moment, is that access to the API is strictly
>> controlled (which it has to be, in order to prevent spammers using it),
>> and there are several hoops to jump through in order to get a Business
>> WhatsApp Account and be eligible for the API. So there are not, yet,
>> many organisations using it. But, in the long run, I expect it to become
>> one of the primary means whereby businesses communicate with customers.
>
>The real problem is tying your retail delivery system into a third party
>owned proprietary system, owned by an outfit with ever diminishing public
>and political trust.

The point is that if you are selling a product which can be delivered
digitally, then it makes sense, from a customer service perspective, to
offer multiple means of delivery. Even assuming that the primary means
remains email (which is likely, at least for the foreseeable future), it
would be a useful add-on for ticket vendors to be able to have an extra,
optional field on the order page which says something like "Enter your
phone number here to get the ticket sent to you via WhatsApp". That
doesn't override, or replace, the email delivery mechanism, but it would
be useful for a large number of customers. If WhatsApp ever goes out of
fashion, or is supplanted by a different IM system, then alternatives
which offer a similar API facility could be implemented instead of, or
even alongside, WhatsApp.

Offering WhatsApp as an optional delivery mechanism is no more tying you
in to anything than offering traditional postal delivery of a printed
ticket ties you in to Royal Mail, or offering TVM printing ties you in
the machinery. On the contrary, the more different delivery mechanisms
you can offer, the less you and your customers are reliant on any single
one of them.

Mark

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:23:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>
>>>> The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>>> used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>>> supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>>> it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>>
>>> Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>>> info? No.
>>> Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.
>>
>> Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
>> question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
>> bothered to think about it before posting that.
>>
>>> Feck that.
>>
>> You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
>> res of us to care.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
>https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/social-media/what-does-whatsapp-know-about-me/
>
>Contacts
>
>WhatsApp also collects information you might have about your friends and
>other contacts through the app. While you can choose to add contacts one at
^^^^^^^^^^

In other words, you don't *have* to share anything unless you want to.

Mark

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:23:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>>>> used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>>>> supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>>>> it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>>>
>>>> Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>>>> info? No.
>>>> Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.
>>>
>>> Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
>>> question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
>>> bothered to think about it before posting that.
>>>
>>>> Feck that.
>>>
>>> You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
>>> res of us to care.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/social-media/what-does-whatsapp-know-about-me/
>>
>> Contacts
>>
>> WhatsApp also collects information you might have about your friends and
>> other contacts through the app. While you can choose to add contacts one at
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> In other words, you don't *have* to share anything unless you want to.
>
> Mark
>

But how many people installing WA actually know that? And how many people
on the signer-up-era’s phone contact list know that their details are going
to be shared with Facebook?