In message <splgpr$2tl$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts from different sources, several of which are high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> volume), so my experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can wait until I get back. But I don't have any real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difficulty reading them when I do need to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compromise when the train company is insisting on using 1992
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver train tickets, when there are numerous far better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more modern ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TOCs could offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar
>>>>>>>>>>>> social media nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>>>>>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>>>>>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>>>>>>>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>>>>>>>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>>>>>>>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>>>>>>>> about the underlying processes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>>>>>>>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>>>>>>>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>>>>>>>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>>>>>>>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>>>>>>>> as just handing over a bit of paper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to support)
>>>>>> as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in which case it
>>>>>> would require a facility to export to a different phone to properly
>>>>>> qualify.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well you are alone in that characterisation. At the very basic level, if
>>>>> you can screenshot the in-app ticket (or even photograph it with another
>>>>> phone) and the copy remains valid it is an e-ticket.
>>>>
>>>> *If* the copy remains valid. Some TOCs specifically exclude a screenshot
>>>> from being valid, and other transport operators (buses, I've got
>>>> insufficient experience with TOCs) watermark the in-app m-ticket at the
>>>> point of display, so that it's obvious (if not already) that it's not
>>>> just a static screenshot.
>>>>
>>> That’s exactly the point. If the copy remains valid it’s an e-ticket.
>>
>> No, sometimes a TOC will accept a copy of an m-ticket, sometimes they
>> won't [accept it at all].
>>
>> Think of it like paper tickets - how likely is it that a TOC would
>> accept a photocopy of one?
>>
>> On the other hand, they positively encourage people [various wording has
>> been quoted the last few days] to make copies of PDFs to show them. But
>> that doesn't mean every such PDF is either literally, or transformed
>> into by the copying process, an e-ticket.
>>
>> They might be content that an AP ticket with seat number on a specific
>> train, is sufficient proof someone is entitled to occupy that empty
>> seat, without the gripper having to go online and query a database.
>>
>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>> actual ticket.
>>
>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>
>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>
>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>> to find on an m-ticket?
>
>Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode seems very
>sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.

The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.

Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spjh5m$pgb$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:18 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>
>>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>>> could be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>>> wallet. Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>>
>>> TfW can and do.
>>
>> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
>> claimed was only available TOD.
>>
>> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
>> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>>
>> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
>> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
>> register a new account to buy tickets."
>>
>> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
>
>You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
>about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
>claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.

I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).

When I posted the above I wasn't aware they had replaced it with a new
one. (Without pushing the new one to me, which would be polite, and what
many other app vendors do automatically).
--
Roland Perry

In message <ob8prg13mqtldl6botrk4tfmt20a9597n4@4ax.com>, at 14:45:57 on
Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:22:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <3bkorg1p1tmtcb4ct09pqq5u9trsbmljha@4ax.com>, at 09:04:41 on
>>Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 23:07:22 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 16/12/2021 21:14, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
>>>>>> receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
>>>>>> are forwarding one they bought for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem that it is less-used from communication from businesses
>>>>> (currently one in my WhatsApp, rather than many in SMS), but I don't see
>>>>> why (unless there's 'better' protection against messages from 'unknown'
>>>>> numbers).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What I object to is SMSs from companies who wont use that mode for
>>>>normal communication.
>>>
>>>If you mean sending an SMS from a number that you can't reply to, that's
>>>a feature of the way the system is designed rather than necessarily a
>>>choice of the sender. It stems from the fact that SMS was, originally,
>>>inteded as a means for the network to communicate with subscribers, not
>>>a user-to-user communication system. That facility was later bolted on,
>>>but has never really sat well with the architecture. A proper
>>>user-to-user instant messaging system had to wait until the advent of
>>>integrated PDA phones.
>>
>>Not true. Orange offered it on their mars-bar phone from day one.
>
>That's an early example of what I referred to as PDA phones. That is,
>phones which had their own independent processing facility, rather than
>being merely thin clients of the network.

It was the only phone they had, and calling it a PDA is vastly
overselling.
--
Roland Perry

In message <rl7prgdstnahhmkm5vp48v8kfbm21p831n@4ax.com>, at 14:30:45 on
Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 16:11:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>>WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>>but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>>data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>
>>The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>
>In the one circumstance that I use it, it is a substitute for a secure
>radio group.

It has entirely replaced all telephony between ourselves and extended
family in the USA. Mainly sending photos (a couple a day on average) and
comments, but several times a week a half hour video call.

I even sent some pictures of a steam train earlier in the month.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spnt48$c99$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:52 on Sun, 19 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>
>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>
>Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>
>By your definition, email is social media.

A mailing list is, because there are usually many participants. One to
one email not so much.

Usenet is just a mailing list using a different transport protocol.

>WhatsApp may allow communication in groups, but what you see is stuff
>specifically sent to you.

To everyone in the group.

>It doesn't allow you seek out other groups to join, it doesn't allow
>you to post stuff for anyone to see.

Neither of those are essential components of social media.

--
Roland Perry

In message <spkupl$8id$3@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:57 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <puahrghpk13hqjvcqr1k6j9mqmat6rq3s5@4ax.com>, at 14:42:38 on
>> Tue, 14 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>>
>>> Most people probably get so few emails that they don't mind getting
>>> notified for all of them. People who get more than a handful of emails a
>>> day are, by and large, either techies or politicians. The former are
>>> perfectly capable of setting up their email systems so as to make the
>>> system work for them rather than them having to work for the system. The
>>> latter will just have to lump it.
>>
>> You've just created a massive excluded-middle of people who get loads of
>> emails and aren't either techies or politicians.
>>
>> A relative who worked as a senior administrative manager at a secondary
>> school once told me she got about one email a minute all day long. And
>> no, they didn't have a budget to hire an assistant.
>
>Presumably those emails were to admin@school.ac.uk rather than to
>ms.hername@hotmail.com.
>
>So her train, theatre and museum tickets are unlikely to get lost in the
>hundreds of school emails.

But neither is she a techie or a politician.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spkupk$8id$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:56 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>>> The alerts arise from swamping the phone with superfluous emails. I'm
>>>> not aware of a way that Android allows the user to fine-tune alerts by
>>>> filtering the stuff inside apps. Rather than saying "this app has
>>>> received this one of many things, you are now alerted".
>>>>
>>>> Are you suggesting that I can set something in Android that only alerts
>>>> me to emails arriving in gmail, that are from a specific shortlist of
>>>> senders?
>>>
>>> That would be app-specific, obviously. The Gmail app doesn't allow that
>>> level of granularity, but does allow notifications to be toggled
>>> independently for different accounts. So, for example, you could have
>>> allmytickets@gmail with notifications switched on, and othermail@gmail
>>> with notifications switched off.
>>
>> So that's back to externalising the burden of filtering to the user
>
>I'd suggest that very few normal users require "the burden of filtering".
>It's a burden you've imposed on yourself, perhaps by insufficient
>separation of work and personal emails?

As someone who has been mainly self-employed (although from time to time
masquerading as an employee because that suited the employer's public
profile) the separation is tenuous. Especially as I don't want to be
using two disjoint email clients, rather than having distinct folders in
one email client.
--
Roland Perry

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How do you defend the assertion that it is clumsily bolted on? It’s been
> available since 2007, just three years after the service started.
>
> I’ve never considered my use of gmail to be any different to imap and
> exchange accounts on other platforms.

Unless it’s changed since I tried it some years ago, Google’s IMAP emulates
folders by tagging messages. The upshot of their implementation is that
nested folders work in weird and unexpected ways, quite unlike other
implementations.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>
>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>
>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>
>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>
>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>
>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>
>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>
> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
> back.

Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the document
they promised (just as an example). And in dire circumstances I would read
a word document on my phone if it were urgent and I had no access to
anything bigger. And yes, I can easily get a hundred emails in a day. But
none of that would interfere with me receiving and retrieving a train
ticket, and I wouldn’t even have to set up a special account for tickets.
All my emails appear on my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t
face the difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and
nor has anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnngq$5d4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:09 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm
>>>>> sure in
>>>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>>>> and the
>>>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>>>
>>>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>>>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>>>> £10 in Morrisons.
>>> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm
>>> told it's coming up).
>>> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>>> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>>> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>>> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>>> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>>> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>>> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
>>> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest
>>> of the year.
>>
>> I don't agree.
>>
>> Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price
>> in Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.
>
> Surely everyone has a Clubcard on their phone?

The only reason I have a club card on my phone is to stop me paying over
the odds on special offers that other supermarkets will give me without a
loyalty card. It certainly doesn’t make me loyal to Tesco, quite the
opposite.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <splgpr$2tl$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts from different sources, several of which are high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> volume), so my experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can wait until I get back. But I don't have any real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difficulty reading them when I do need to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compromise when the train company is insisting on using 1992
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver train tickets, when there are numerous far better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more modern ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TOCs could offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> social media nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>>>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>>>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>>>>>>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>>>>>>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>>>>>>>>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>>>>>>>>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>>>>>>>>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>>>>>>>>> about the underlying processes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>>>>>>>>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>>>>>>>>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>>>>>>>>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>>>>>>>>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>>>>>>>>> as just handing over a bit of paper.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to support)
>>>>>>> as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in which case it
>>>>>>> would require a facility to export to a different phone to properly
>>>>>>> qualify.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well you are alone in that characterisation. At the very basic level, if
>>>>>> you can screenshot the in-app ticket (or even photograph it with another
>>>>>> phone) and the copy remains valid it is an e-ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>> *If* the copy remains valid. Some TOCs specifically exclude a screenshot
>>>>> from being valid, and other transport operators (buses, I've got
>>>>> insufficient experience with TOCs) watermark the in-app m-ticket at the
>>>>> point of display, so that it's obvious (if not already) that it's not
>>>>> just a static screenshot.
>>>>>
>>>> That’s exactly the point. If the copy remains valid it’s an e-ticket.
>>>
>>> No, sometimes a TOC will accept a copy of an m-ticket, sometimes they
>>> won't [accept it at all].
>>>
>>> Think of it like paper tickets - how likely is it that a TOC would
>>> accept a photocopy of one?
>>>
>>> On the other hand, they positively encourage people [various wording has
>>> been quoted the last few days] to make copies of PDFs to show them. But
>>> that doesn't mean every such PDF is either literally, or transformed
>>> into by the copying process, an e-ticket.
>>>
>>> They might be content that an AP ticket with seat number on a specific
>>> train, is sufficient proof someone is entitled to occupy that empty
>>> seat, without the gripper having to go online and query a database.
>>>
>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>>> actual ticket.
>>>
>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>
>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>
>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>
>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode seems very
>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>
> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>
> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.

Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
devious but dim.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 09:29:44 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <spnt48$c99$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:52 on Sun, 19 Dec
>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spdooe$2r5$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:03:57 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 15/12/2021 15:50, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <vn1krgdr3pirmh8272gfju5ggtskkvgmiq@4ax.com>, at 15:17:50
>>>>> on Wed, 15 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:42:48 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <spb5g8$1vp$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:23:04 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doesn't everyone carry a torch in their pocket these days?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roland probably doesn't know his phone includes a torch, or how to
>>>>>>>> switch
>>>>>>>> it on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm struggling to understand what possible motive you have for making
>>>>>>> such crassly stupid postings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, do you know how to use the torch in your phone?
>>>
>>>>> Obviously. My power pack also has a torch in it, if I have the power
>>>>> pack about my person, which is unlikely if I've just popped to the
>>>>> hospital for a clinic appointment, expecting the ticket machine not to
>>>>> be in total darkness.
>>>>
>>>> On my car key-ring I have a small torch operated by turning a handle -
>>>> never runs out and always available.
>>>
>>> That's another thing that doesn't necessarily scale well. We have two
>>> cars, and two sets of keys (one each). Just one has a miniature
>>> mercury-cell powered 'maglite'. Which reminds me, I must replace the
>>> batteries.
>>>
>>> <Thread convergence> And another is the only one with the Tesco clubcard
>>> fob.
>>
>>We currently have four cars in my household, two of which have two sets of
>>keys (one for each person).
>>
>>I don't want to routinely carry all the keys with me, so I have a carabiner
>>around 7cm*4cm, onto which I attach the various sets of keys (each on their
>>own conventional key ring) which I'll need that day/trip.
>>
>>Car keys (4 sets)
>>House keys
>>Garage key
>>Bike keys
>>Work keys
>>Parents house key
>>Railway volunteering-location keys
>>Tiny penknife.
>>Foldable ruler keyring.
>>
>><https://twitter.com/annanoyddryver/status/1472619060684894216?s=21>
>
>I don't treat every car trip as an expedition, and I'm not going to
>start attaching Tesco loyalty fobs to the keys every time I leave the
>house with an expectation of visiting a Tesco that day, and then taking
>them off when I get back home.

So use a physical Clubcard or store it on your phone.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 13:11:41 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnngq$5d4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:09 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm
>>>>>> sure in
>>>>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>>>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>>>>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>>>>> £10 in Morrisons.
>>>> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm
>>>> told it's coming up).
>>>> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>>>> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>>>> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>>>> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>>>> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>>>> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>>>> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
>>>> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest
>>>> of the year.
>>>
>>> I don't agree.
>>>
>>> Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price
>>> in Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.
>>
>> Surely everyone has a Clubcard on their phone?
>
>The only reason I have a club card on my phone is to stop me paying over
>the odds on special offers that other supermarkets will give me without a
>loyalty card. It certainly doesn’t make me loyal to Tesco, quite the
>opposite.

I think 'loyalty' card became a misnomer as soon as multiple supermarkets started offering them. Now, they're just a way
of saving a small amount of money wherever you happen to be shopping.

What works better is when they offer you, say £10 if you spend a reasonable amount on a shop. In the last week, I've had
£12 off Sainsbury's that way (minus a £1 delivery charge), and £10 off Ocado (free delivery).

On 20/12/2021 13:12, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>
>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>
> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
> devious but dim.

That's a good reason for including a barcode rather than for omitting a
human-readable translation. I remember a fuss some years ago when
Barclays replaced the serial number by a barcode on cheque book stubs,
presumably thinking only of their own processing requirements whilst
forgetting (and/or not caring) about their customers.

On 20/12/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
> others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).

I don't think you're a refusenik, but you do use technology in a very
atypical way. I do too; it's neither a compliment nor a criticism.

On 20/12/2021 11:51, Recliner wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>
>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place,
>>>
>>
>> I've listed numerous other instances in which people receive and show PDFs
>> on their phone.
>>
>> If we wish to expand it from 'receive and show' to 'receive, read and keep'
>> PDF on their phone, we can add to that list, receipts for many online and
>> real-world purchases, quotes from builders and other tradespeople,
>> treatment plan and receipts from my dentist, etc.
>
> It's also perfectly possible to file attachments in something like Dropbox, so they can be shared across devices. I
> often do that.
>
I just FTP'd a PDF onto my phone and displayed it on an e-book reader
which is another route with the advantage of being off line on my travels.

On 20/12/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spjh5m$pgb$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:18 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>>>> could  be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>>>> wallet.  Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>>>
>>>> TfW can and do.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
>>> claimed was only available TOD.
>>>
>>> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
>>> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>>>
>>> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
>>> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
>>> register a new account to buy tickets."
>>>
>>> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
>>
>> You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
>> about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
>> claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.
>
> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
> others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).
>
> When I posted the above I wasn't aware they had replaced it with a new
> one. (Without pushing the new one to me, which would be polite, and what
> many other app vendors do automatically).

They cannot push the new app to their passengers as the old one needs to
remain active until existing tickets expire.

In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>
>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>
>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>
>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>
>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>> back.
>
>Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.

Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".

>However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the document
>they promised (just as an example).

Tick.

>And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.

That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spphob$d1t$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:18:03 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>it seems overkill to carry coins unused for months on
>>> the off-chance that I might one day make a transaction under £1.
>>
>> There are enough use-cases that it does seem necessary, although one of
>> them, the toilets at Kings Cross, went free-of-charge not so long ago.
>
>Several years ago, like most major NR stations.

FSVO "several", 2019.
--
Roland Perry

On 20/12/2021 13:40, Certes wrote:
> On 20/12/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
>> others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).
>
> I don't think you're a refusenik, but you do use technology in a very
> atypical way.  I do too; it's neither a compliment nor a criticism.

Which is a problem. Too many companies expect you follow their methods
in an unbending way with no regard to it's practically for some.

In message <sppj71$a8b$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:42:58 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnv2m$ot5$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:53:10 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <splgpr$2tl$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>>>>>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>>>>>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who carries coins in 2021?!
>>>>
>>>> I have a few, for supermarket trolleys etc. Or does your supermarket
>>>> trolley park have barcode readers?
>>>
>>> The supermarkets I use don't have coin-trolleys,
>>
>> I prefer to use shops that don't, but increasingly councils make it a
>> condition to try to combat customers dumping trolleys all over the town.
>
>Aah, the supermarkets I use (except ones too small to have trolleys) aren't
>in town.

The idea has spread though. Most recently I was caught out at the
mega-Tesco on the edge of Peterborough (definitely not in-town). <thread
convergence> I didn't have the car-keys with the token on them.

>>> but in any case I rarely use a trolley anyway.
>>
>> And I rarely buy so few groceries that they would fit in a basket.
>
>Our main shopping is delivered, so visiting an actual physical shop is
>usually only for top-ups.

While deliveries certainly have a place, I often buy things I've not
heard of before, because I see them while walking the aisles.

>>> If I encountered such a supermarket I would indeed be
>>> somewhat stumped; perhaps I'll put a pound coin in the car somewhere.
>>>
>>>> It also seems a bit of an overkill to use a credit card via phone to pay
>>>> for 50p of off-peak parking at the station.
>>>
>>> I used to think like that about 25 years ago. The world has moved on since
>>> then, though, and now it seems overkill to carry coins unused for months on
>>> the off-chance that I might one day make a transaction under £1.
>>
>> There are enough use-cases that it does seem necessary, although one of
>> them, the toilets at Kings Cross, went free-of-charge not so long ago.
>> The turnstiles there didn't take credit cards.
>
>Incidentally regarding forecourt airlines, one of the other use-cases
>mentioned here, one of the city centre petrol stations in Bristol obviously
>had a problem with cash thefts from the air machine, so it now takes tokens
>which you purchase from the shop. Perhaps this is a solution for paying for
>toilets.

I normally use the air-line at Sainsbury's, which is free.

--
Roland Perry

Am 20.12.2021 um 14:48 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>> back.
>>
>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>
> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".

I think we're all in agreement here. Having used e-mail for 30 years
and smartphones for 12 years, I still find my working styles changing
occasionally.

I now prefer an "extended pager" functionality on my phone (something
which "Spark" sadly does not offer):
The mail client provides a smart notification for each incoming mail.
I have the choice of Delete mail, Read mail, Discard notification
(ignore mail on phone).
Out of my private mails, I "deal with" 80% on the phone during the
weekend, leaving 20% or so to handle on the PC on Monday.

Rolf

In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>
>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>
>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>
>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>
>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode seems very
>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>
>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>
>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>
>Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
>devious but dim.

I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq2gd$2mg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:03:57 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 20/12/2021 13:40, Certes wrote:
>> On 20/12/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:

>>> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
>>>others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).

>> I don't think you're a refusenik, but you do use technology in a
>>very atypical way.  I do too; it's neither a compliment nor a
>>criticism.
>
>Which is a problem. Too many companies expect you follow their methods
>in an unbending way with no regard to it's practically for some.

I try to use the technology in every way I can. For example exercising
all the various delivery methods rather than just picking one. Maybe
that's why I find more bugs.

When I was doing product design, it was fairly important to find as many
bugs as possible [and get them fixed], before the customers did.

One of the bugs I consider most egregious was the original EMT ITSO
cards, where it turns out they coded the issue date into the
Date-of-Birth field. So when you rocked up at a TVM all it would offer
was Child tickets (they obviously thought they were being helpful, but
also overlooked the fact that infants only a few months old travelled
free anyway).

I could see what had happened (other than guesswork) because I had an
NFC phone, and an app which read the raw data off the ITSO card, not
something very many people did, I suspect. But not until I had the mk2
card to compare it with, because I didn't know what data was supposed to
be in which field.

But whatever field testing they'd done in advance of launching the
product, obviously didn't include any of their staff actually going to a
TVM and trying to buy a ticket with a production card, because then it
would have leapt out at them. Presumably all they did was load some
tickets onto the cards in the lab, and then see if the barriers/
validators/gripper-tools could read them, and maybe buy a ticket with a
card they had once again hand-carved in the lab, rather than whatever
process was used to process tickets applied for by the public.

--
Roland Perry

In message <spq21s$2mg$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:12 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 20/12/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spjh5m$pgb$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:18 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>>>>> could  be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>>>>> wallet.  Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>>>>
>>>>> TfW can and do.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
>>>> claimed was only available TOD.
>>>>
>>>> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
>>>> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>>>>
>>>> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
>>>> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
>>>> register a new account to buy tickets."
>>>>
>>>> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
>>>
>>> You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
>>> about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
>>> claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.

>> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
>>others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).

>> When I posted the above I wasn't aware they had replaced it with a
>>new one. (Without pushing the new one to me, which would be polite,
>>and what many other app vendors do automatically).
>
>They cannot push the new app to their passengers as the old one needs
>to remain active until existing tickets expire.

Why can't the new app be backwards compatible with the data stored on
the phone by the old app?
--
Roland Perry