In message <hvt3sgt7isfho097l0hn626p6p2fmqpqar@4ax.com>, at 15:51:30 on
Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:20:08 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <spsbcd$t9j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:40 on Tue, 21 Dec
>>2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>
>>>>>>  Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if
>>>>>>they  see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>>>>>>  We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
>>>>>>filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
>>>>>> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm having problems accessing the android sub-folders which I
>>>>>suspect is an Android limitation. What file manager are you using?
>>
>>>> CX File Explorer.
>>
>>>> (I note there's also one called simply "File Manager", which I
>>>>suppose must be part of the bundle from LG - I can't get it to
>>>>divulge any identifying information other than v6.20.7, which isn't
>>>>remotely the same as the Android version - hadn't noticed it before.)
>>>
>>>I was using CX File Explorer. I cannot see any files in either
>>>wales.tfw.rail.app or com.tfwrail although I can see some in other
>>>directories at the same level. I do have expired tickets in both apps.
>>
>>Which leaves us with the unresolved issue: where are the files
>>containing the in-app data stored, and how easy is it for people to
>>access, edit and use a substitute fraudulently?
>>
>>Tweed: over to you.
>
>Perhaps there are hidden folders or files, as on PCs?

Maybe there are. But surely people familiar with the way phones work
(and we seem to be surrounded by them) should be able to tell us this.
And unless the folders can be easily un-hidden, it rather makes the risk
of people hacking the tickets stored in them moot.

As sudden thought: rather than use the phone itself to explore the
folders - again, we are surrounded by people who claim all they need
is a phone - how about attaching it to a laptop?

And suddenly, there are 2,100 app data items to trawl through. About
quarter are folders, and of the rest the biggest set are .CNT which are
apparently help files. There are no pdf's nor anything showing in the
train app folders.

So I'm still on the hunt for where the app is putting the e-tickets, and
what format they are in.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spvmkk$kpf$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:18:12 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> Perhaps you could suggest a better email client than Spark, which was
>> the one that came out on top last groundhog day.
>>
>> It does "work", of course, but struggles with more than ten folders, or
>> ten emails, on the screen at once.
>
>I’ve never used Spark. At the moment I’m using a FastMail account accessed
>by IMAP from Apple Mail on the desktop and the FastMail app on Android and
>iPod.

Gets good reviews, but:

Note: You must be either a paid subscriber or have verified your
trial Fastmail account to use this app.

I'm trying to reduce the amount of outsourcing I do, rather than
increase it. Although if I get wet weekend in the New Year, I might
try migrating one of my domains to it, I presume they take over the
hosting, MX administration, etc.
--
Roland Perry

In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a document, but
>>>if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>
>>In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>thinks they are unsuitable for).
>
>I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>scenario under discussion here.

It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
scenario I was attempting to discuss.

In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.

It's almost like advocating to scrap the PIS at stations, which tell
people the times and platforms for next trains to various destinations.
Obviously, anyone with an iota of clue will already have that
information on their phone, courtesy of RTT or Opentraintimes.

And in case you think I'm exaggerating, I've had exactly that suggested
to me, here, when complaining about Kings Cross's policy of typically
only announcing platform numbers ten minutes before departure.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spvic7$hp1$3@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:27 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sput7s$5si$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:04:43 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>> 2021, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spk7nv$qil$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:56:31 on Sat, 18 Dec >
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps Roland's inbox is sorted in some unique-to-him way?
>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've said before, it's sorted into a hundred different folders,
>>>>>>> which doesn't work on a phone. But I regard as necessary to cope
>>>>>>> with the volume.
>>>>
>>>>>> ×Of course it works on a sodding phone! You just choose not to use
>>>>>> thetechnology that allows it work.
>>>>>> ×Sam (single email account, multiple addresses, 58 folders, all
>>>>>>accessible
>>>>>> from phone, tablet and desktop)
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed, Roland's problems with technology really are quite remarkable.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have problems with technology. I have problems with
>>>> inappropriate technology. Trying to make phones a one-size-fits-all
>>>> solution for IT needs is just bizarre.
>>>
>>> For you.
>>>
>>> Not for anyone under 40.
>>
>> I remain unconvinced an under-40 can receive and edit a 20 page Word
>> document on a phone. At least, within a shadow of the time it could be
>> done on a desktop.
>
>Nobody's
>Suggesting
>That
>A
>Phone
>Should
>Be
>Your
>Only
>Access
>To
>Email
>!!!
>
>But most people seem able to access their email with equal convenience on
>either phone or computer.

Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
require editing and sending back?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq049s$4jk$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:11:24 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a document, but
>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>
>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>
>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>> scenario under discussion here.
>
>Not a single person other than Roland has suggested using a phone to read
>or edit long documents. Specifically Recliner hasn’t suggested this.

What has been suggested, however, is that a phone is adequate for any
online IT task, and at one stage a suggestion that if I found reading
small screens a problem, perhaps I should get my eyes tested.

Now, who just mentioned reading RAIB reports on a phone, only yesterday?
I linked to one earlier, only 48 pages.

>My phone’s not suitable for baking a cake either, but it doesn’t
>stop me using it for ticketing.

Now you are just getting silly.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spvsm7$5vh$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:01:27 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 22/12/2021 18:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spvnue$tgl$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:40:30 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 22/12/2021 17:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <spvic7$hp1$3@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:27 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sput7s$5si$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:04:43 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <spk7nv$qil$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:56:31 on Sat, 18
>>>>>>>>Dec >
>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps Roland's inbox is sorted in some unique-to-him way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I've said before, it's sorted into a hundred different folders,
>>>>>>>>> which doesn't work on a phone. But I regard as necessary to cope
>>>>>>>>> with the volume.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ×Of course it works on a sodding phone!  You just choose not to use
>>>>>>>> thetechnology that allows it work.
>>>>>>>> ×Sam (single email account, multiple addresses, 58 folders, all
>>>>>>>>accessible
>>>>>>>> from phone, tablet and desktop)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed, Roland's problems with technology really are quite
>>>>>>>remarkable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have problems with technology. I have problems with
>>>>>> inappropriate technology. Trying to make phones a one-size-fits-all
>>>>>> solution for IT needs is just bizarre.
>>>>>
>>>>> For you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not for anyone under 40.
>>
>>>>  I remain unconvinced an under-40 can receive and edit a 20 page
>>>>Word document on a phone. At least, within a shadow of the time it
>>>>could be done on a desktop.
>>>
>>> Though they probably could, why would they want to? How many train
>>>tickets run to 20 pages?

>> Do try to keep up!

>> "One-size-fits-all solution for IT needs", of which editing and
>>sending back Word documents is but one example.
>
>No one but you expects a one size fits all solution.

You have that precisely backwards. I'm the one advocating that there
isn't a one-size-fits all solution.

And one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
(and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
is how many developers test their products).
--
Roland Perry

In message <spvnvo$vi4$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:12 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>> I can’t really help you here, but I see other contributors have answered.
>>> FTR in the last two years or so I have been on the following trains that I
>>> can remember:
>>>
>>> Edinburgh-Newcastle LNER
>>> Berwick-on-Tweed-Edinburgh LNER
>>> Edinburgh-Glasgow-Ardrossan and return ScotRail
>>> Norwich-Ely-King’s Lynn GA/GN
>>> North Berwick-Edinburgh ScotRail
>>> Edinburgh-Glasgow and return ScotRail
>>>
>>> I don’t remember proportions on each journey, but there were enough people
>>> using phones to be noticeable. I used paper tickets on every journey
>>> (though arriving from N Berwick I obtained the ticket at my destination!).
>>
>> I wonder how many were using the phone because they wanted to, rather
>> than being forced into it because the TVM was broken?
>
>For that to be an issue we’d have to know how many intended to buy tickets
>from a TVM and how many of those TVMs were not working.

And getting back to my original point, what actions should the railways
take to mitigate the effects of increasing the penalty fares in
situations where it does arise.

>All the stations I bought tickets at were staffed and either I bought
>the tickets on line (the Newcastle/Berwick trip) or I used the TVM.

My concern isn't entirely theoretical, because earlier in the year I
caught a train from an unmanned station which for two consecutive days
(I was unsighted about earlier and later days) the sole TVM was
broken[1].

The trip (whose fare was about £3) was somewhat spur of the moment, and
ordering such as ticket online in advance is a massive overkill.
Especially as I wasn't sure if I was going to be needing the train for
the return trip.

>I’ve just remembered there were also some Edinburgh-Prestonpans or
>vice versa trips; again TVMs worked.

Yes, they work most of the time (except when sulking and refusing to
take Amex).

>In my own recent experience (~5 years or more) I think I’ve only ever
>come across a single broken TVM and I had time to report that - it gave
>up the ghost while I was using it - and used the machine next to it.

I've seen them much more often than that. And it's not just those single
points of failure. Another station is "manned" (except the windows had
been closed for days due to staff shortages) and therefore the three
TVMs had run out of blank ticket stock.

Shit happens, but I'd like to see much more done to assure the public
that when this shit happens in compulsory tick zones, it's not the
passenger who suffers.

[1] I reported the issue at my destination, but the staff couldn't have
been less interested. Perhaps because the TVM first station was
operated by a different TOC. But we are straying into turf-wars
here, which is a rather different kettle of worms.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spvo2v$oi$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:42:55 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>
>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>
>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>
>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>
>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a Cineworld and
>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not investigated how the
>>> QR code was embedded.
>>
>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>> I've given this example.
>>
>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>
>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>
>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>
>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>
>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>
>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>> misplaced it.
>
>Which is a complete tangent, right?

It shows that people with phones, on trains, don't always have a charged
battery, even when they knew that before travelling.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq087k$ua$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:28 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>
>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>
>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>
>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a Cineworld and
>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>investigated how the
>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>
>>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>>> I've given this example.
>>>
>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>
>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>
>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>
>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>
>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>> misplaced it.
>>
>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>
>Nobody's ever lost a paper ticket. Ever. In the history of railways.

At least that's partly their fault, whereas broken TVMs are the TOC's
fault.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>
>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>Cineworld and
>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>investigated how the
>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>
>>>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>>>> I've given this example.
>>>>
>>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>>
>>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>>> misplaced it.
>>>
>>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>>>
>>
>> Nobody's ever lost a paper ticket. Ever. In the history of railways.
>
>Once, a long time ago, I left my wallet, with my ticket in it, on the train
>when I changed at Preston. The BTP phoned ahead to Warrington and the
>guard found it there and got it sent to Manchester Victoria, where I picked
>it up the next day. The staff at Preston gave me a pass to get to
>Manchester in the mean time.
>
>I also once left tickets on the buffet table at Bridlington (beautiful
>station, Bridlington) and the guard got in touch with the station, who gave
>the tickets to the guard of the next train and we picked them up from her
>at Hull.
>
>Of course I knew where the tickets were the whole time so they were never
>actually lost, thus proving your point.

And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
let alone helpful).

An acquaintance left a backpack on a train a couple of years ago, and
despite immediately phoning through to the next stop, and it being a
train with a guard, the company was completely disinterested in helping,
suggesting only that enquiries be made in a few days time in case it had
been found by the cleaners at the end of the day. Suggestions that
viewing the train's CCTV might reveal who could have (quite probably)
nicked it en-route were received with incredulity. Although I wasn't
surprised.
--
Roland Perry

On 22/12/2021 21:11, Tweed wrote:
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a document, but
>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>
>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>
>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>> scenario under discussion here.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> Not a single person other than Roland has suggested using a phone to read
> or edit long documents. Specifically Recliner hasn’t suggested this. My
> phone’s not suitable for baking a cake either, but it doesn’t stop me using
> it for ticketing.
>

I've used mine to check the recipe :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sq07ts$u8j$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:13:16 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:17 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spt2o7$5ua$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:26:31 on Tue, 21 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spq6ak$ui$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:08 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <spnt49$c99$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:53 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do
>>>>>>>>>>>> think set up special email addresses for different online
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it
>>>>>>>>>>>entirely unnecessary.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that
>>>>>>>>>>very few buy such tickets).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK let's leave train tickets out of it then. You said "what
>>>>>>>>>percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>>>>>> addresses for different online purchases?". I still maintain
>>>>>>>>>that vanishingly few ordinary members of the public do so.
>>>>>>>>>Surely you're not now going to claim that none of them buy anything online?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure loads of them buy things online, but they don't often
>>>>>>>>involve a fulfilment process that requires them to present a
>>>>>>>> merchant (or even the delivery man).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And even when they do, it's probably not on-the-hoof minutes after
>>>>>>>> having placed the order, thus requiring the barcode to be on their
>>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet for those things which do require the emailed barcode to
>>>>>>>be shown (theatre, museum, zoo, farm park etc) I'd suggest that
>>>>>>> majority will be quite successfully shown on phones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>
>>>>> When are you going to accept that most people just don’t care
>>>>>which it is?
>>>>
>>>> When there's some evidence that they are happy to be forced into using a
>>>> phone app to email them a pdf, because the TVM at their departure
>>>> station is unexpectedly broken.
>>>
>>> I’m sorry, but I can’t see the train of thought between your previous
>>> paragraph (apps good, email PDFs bad) and this comment. I’m suggesting
>>> that most people, unlike you, don’t seem to care whether the ticket is
>>> in-app or an emailed PDF. I don’t know where the idea of the app emailing
>>> a PDF comes from.
>>
>> Because many apps email a PDF, which is then fiddly to find and display.
>> At the very least, involving having a suitably fettled email client on
>> the phone, as well as having the train app. Why can't they just push the
>> ticket to the train app?
>
>Because Luddites

(I presume is a hapless distraction technique because you have no answer
to the underlying questions)

>like you would then complain that they couldn't store and print it on
>their desktop PCs.

I'm sorry to point out that an emailed PDF is likely to be an option
which a buyer can select, if that suits them better [than the in-app
option].

In any event, ordering a ticket on an app, puts the balance of
probability on wanting to use it on that app. Your hypothetical
Luddite would be ordering them on his desktop.

I can't help it if long term greater exposure to mobile tech, >30yrs
now, means I'm rather more prone to pointing out when the emperor has no
clothes.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spvobo$tgl$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 22/12/2021 17:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many
>>>>>>PDFs
>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>
>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>
>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>
>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>
>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a Cineworld and
>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine.  I’ve not
>>>investigated how the
>>> QR code was embedded.
>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app
>>delivery. I've given this example.
>>
>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for
>>>>
>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>
>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>
>>>>  <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>
>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>
>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.

>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>misplaced it.
>
>So they are stupid as well as clumsy.

Victim blaming is always a good look, if you getting desperate and have
no better answer.

>There is no excuse in this day and age for having a phone with your
>ticket on and letting the battery go flat.

Ah yes, the let them eat cake defence ("doesn't everyone carry a power
block?").

>That probably qualifies as the second oldest excuse in the book for the
>average gripper. (After the dog ate my ticket).

However, that's not the scenario under discussion, which is arriving at
the station to find the TVM broken and needing to use the phone to buy
one instead. Rather than the train company assuring passengers of a
rather less user-hostile Plan-B.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spvmkk$kpf$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:18:12 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> Perhaps you could suggest a better email client than Spark, which was
>>> the one that came out on top last groundhog day.
>>>
>>> It does "work", of course, but struggles with more than ten folders, or
>>> ten emails, on the screen at once.
>>
>> I’ve never used Spark. At the moment I’m using a FastMail account accessed
>> by IMAP from Apple Mail on the desktop and the FastMail app on Android and
>> iPod.
>
> Gets good reviews, but:
>
> Note: You must be either a paid subscriber or have verified your
> trial Fastmail account to use this app.

Yes, it’s not a generalised mail client, but it does work very well.

> I'm trying to reduce the amount of outsourcing I do, rather than
> increase it. Although if I get wet weekend in the New Year, I might
> try migrating one of my domains to it, I presume they take over the
> hosting, MX administration, etc.

You’ll have to check the options available at the various service levels
they offer. I pay for extra storage and given your volumes you might too.
Having used the free service I decided the relatively modest payment was
worth it.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spvic7$hp1$3@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:27 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sput7s$5si$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:04:43 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spk7nv$qil$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:56:31 on Sat, 18 Dec >
>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps Roland's inbox is sorted in some unique-to-him way?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I've said before, it's sorted into a hundred different folders,
>>>>>>>> which doesn't work on a phone. But I regard as necessary to cope
>>>>>>>> with the volume.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ×Of course it works on a sodding phone! You just choose not to use
>>>>>>> thetechnology that allows it work.
>>>>>>> ×Sam (single email account, multiple addresses, 58 folders, all
>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>> from phone, tablet and desktop)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed, Roland's problems with technology really are quite remarkable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have problems with technology. I have problems with
>>>>> inappropriate technology. Trying to make phones a one-size-fits-all
>>>>> solution for IT needs is just bizarre.
>>>>
>>>> For you.
>>>>
>>>> Not for anyone under 40.
>>>
>>> I remain unconvinced an under-40 can receive and edit a 20 page Word
>>> document on a phone. At least, within a shadow of the time it could be
>>> done on a desktop.
>>
>> Nobody's
>> Suggesting
>> That
>> A
>> Phone
>> Should
>> Be
>> Your
>> Only
>> Access
>> To
>> Email
>> !!!
>>
>> But most people seem able to access their email with equal convenience on
>> either phone or computer.
>
> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
> require editing and sending back?

For the umpteenth time NOBODY is suggesting this other than you.

On 23/12/2021 10:55, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spvobo$tgl$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 22/12/2021 17:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many
>>>>>>> PDFs
>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm
>>>>>> parks and
>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>
>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>
>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>
>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>> Cineworld and
>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine.  I’ve not investigated
>>>> how  the
>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>  The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app
>>> delivery.  I've given this example.
>>>
>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for
>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>
>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>
>>>>>  <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>>
>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>
>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until
>>>>> they
>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>
>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>
>>>  On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it
>>> or do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people
>>> immediately suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead
>>> before they misplaced it.
>>
>> So they are stupid as well as clumsy.
>
> Victim blaming is always a good look, if you getting desperate and have
> no better answer.

Same old excuse, I just don't believe it.

>
>> There is no excuse in this day and age for having a phone with your
>> ticket on and letting the battery go flat.
>
> Ah yes, the let them eat cake defence ("doesn't everyone carry a power
> block?").

What's a power block got t do with it. If they can't be bothered to
charge their phone what makes you think they would remember to charge
their power block?

>
>> That probably qualifies as the second oldest excuse in the book for
>> the average gripper. (After the dog ate my ticket).
>
> However, that's not the scenario under discussion, which is arriving at
> the station to find the TVM broken and needing to use the phone to buy
> one instead. Rather than the train company assuring passengers of a
> rather less user-hostile Plan-B.

No, you changed the discussion to someone who couldn't be bothered to
charge their phone when they knew they had a ticket on it that they
would need to show at some point. Or were they hoping there would be no
check at their destination?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spvo2v$oi$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:42:55 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>
>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>
>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>
>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a Cineworld and
>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not investigated how the
>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>
>>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>>> I've given this example.
>>>
>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>
>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>
>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>
>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>
>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>> misplaced it.
>>
>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>
> It shows that people with phones, on trains, don't always have a charged
> battery, even when they knew that before travelling.

But if they knew the battery was dead they’d also know it couldn’t have
been used to display a valid ticket, so either they were travelling
illegitimately or they had some other form of ticket available, so the
incident is not relevant to the point you’re trying to make.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq09ks$a8t$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:42:36 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spvmu5$n7a$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:23:18 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
>>>>>>>>> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMX all those are emailed. I don't think random museums, farm parks and
>>>>>>>> MailRail tend to have their own apps…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the booking agencies used by some "attractions" do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And our local movie theatre (Cineworld) has an app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you don’t have to use it - my last cinema trip was to a
>>>>>> Cineworld and
>>>>>> an email with embedded QR code worked fine. I’ve not
>>>>>> investigated how the
>>>>>> QR code was embedded.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposition was that booking apps can, and do, use in-app delivery.
>>>>> I've given this example.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most recent review: "This app deserves 0 stars but fortunately for its
>>>>>>> creaters, that's not an option."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However it does appear to have in-app tickets:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://play-lh.googleusercontent.com/M1jjc5QrL6zFW8o-QJ8f5MxgoyfVxyjh
>>>>>>> ZXz0Z6R9FufLHGGNVBLpsDgGEGEsJuL2AHk=w1050-h1567>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shame that phone's only got 14% battery left, I hope it lasts until they
>>>>>>> get to the cinema.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the image is (allegedly) taken at 17:10 but the film doesn’t
>>>>>> start until 11am, perhaps they’ll do what most people do and charge the
>>>>>> phone in the intervening 18 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>>>> misplaced it.
>>>>
>>>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nobody's ever lost a paper ticket. Ever. In the history of railways.
>>
>> Once, a long time ago, I left my wallet, with my ticket in it, on the train
>> when I changed at Preston. The BTP phoned ahead to Warrington and the
>> guard found it there and got it sent to Manchester Victoria, where I picked
>> it up the next day. The staff at Preston gave me a pass to get to
>> Manchester in the mean time.
>>
>> I also once left tickets on the buffet table at Bridlington (beautiful
>> station, Bridlington) and the guard got in touch with the station, who gave
>> the tickets to the guard of the next train and we picked them up from her
>> at Hull.
>>
>> Of course I knew where the tickets were the whole time so they were never
>> actually lost, thus proving your point.
>
> And you were lucky to be using trains where they had a guard (at all,
> let alone helpful).

I did say the first was a long time ago, so it would have been unheard of
for a train not to have a guard. The second was about 10 years ago; I
don’t know if the staffing of those services would have changed in the mean
time.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq049s$4jk$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:11:24 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a document, but
>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>>
>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>
>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>
>> Not a single person other than Roland has suggested using a phone to read
>> or edit long documents. Specifically Recliner hasn’t suggested this.
>
> What has been suggested, however, is that a phone is adequate for any
> online IT task,

Absolutely no-one has suggested that. But it's suitable for more online IT
tasks than you think.

> and at one stage a suggestion that if I found reading
> small screens a problem, perhaps I should get my eyes tested.
>
> Now, who just mentioned reading RAIB reports on a phone, only yesterday?
> I linked to one earlier, only 48 pages.
>
>> My phone’s not suitable for baking a cake either, but it doesn’t
>> stop me using it for ticketing.
>
> Now you are just getting silly.

Priceless!

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spvsm7$5vh$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:01:27 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 22/12/2021 18:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spvnue$tgl$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:40:30 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 22/12/2021 17:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <spvic7$hp1$3@dont-email.me>, at 16:05:27 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sput7s$5si$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:04:43 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <spk7nv$qil$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:56:31 on Sat, 18
>>>>>>>>> Dec >
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps Roland's inbox is sorted in some unique-to-him way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I've said before, it's sorted into a hundred different folders,
>>>>>>>>>> which doesn't work on a phone. But I regard as necessary to cope
>>>>>>>>>> with the volume.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ×Of course it works on a sodding phone!  You just choose not to use
>>>>>>>>> thetechnology that allows it work.
>>>>>>>>> ×Sam (single email account, multiple addresses, 58 folders, all
>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>> from phone, tablet and desktop)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed, Roland's problems with technology really are quite
>>>>>>>> remarkable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have problems with technology. I have problems with
>>>>>>> inappropriate technology. Trying to make phones a one-size-fits-all
>>>>>>> solution for IT needs is just bizarre.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not for anyone under 40.
>>>
>>>>>  I remain unconvinced an under-40 can receive and edit a 20 page
>>>>> Word document on a phone. At least, within a shadow of the time it
>>>>> could be done on a desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Though they probably could, why would they want to? How many train
>>>> tickets run to 20 pages?
>
>>> Do try to keep up!
>
>>> "One-size-fits-all solution for IT needs", of which editing and
>>> sending back Word documents is but one example.
>>
>> No one but you expects a one size fits all solution.
>
> You have that precisely backwards. I'm the one advocating that there
> isn't a one-size-fits all solution.
>
> And one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
> of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
> (and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
> Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
> is how many developers test their products).

I'd rather receive emailed PDFs than have to have a unique app installed
for every vendor. They can be viewed on any device, archived, printed or
forwarded.

On 23/12/2021 10:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spvnvo$vi4$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:12 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> I can’t really help you here, but I see other contributors have
>>>> answered.
>>>> FTR in the last two years or so I have been on the following trains
>>>> that I
>>>> can remember:
>>>>
>>>> Edinburgh-Newcastle LNER
>>>> Berwick-on-Tweed-Edinburgh LNER
>>>> Edinburgh-Glasgow-Ardrossan and return ScotRail
>>>> Norwich-Ely-King’s Lynn GA/GN
>>>> North Berwick-Edinburgh ScotRail
>>>> Edinburgh-Glasgow and return ScotRail
>>>>
>>>> I don’t remember proportions on each journey, but there were enough
>>>> people
>>>> using phones to be noticeable.  I used paper tickets on every journey
>>>> (though arriving from N Berwick I obtained the ticket at my
>>>> destination!).
>>>
>>> I wonder how many were using the phone because they wanted to, rather
>>> than being forced into it because the TVM was broken?
>>
>> For that to be an issue we’d have to know how many intended to buy
>> tickets
>> from a TVM and how many of those TVMs were not working.
>
> And getting back to my original point, what actions should the railways
> take to mitigate the effects of increasing the penalty fares in
> situations where it does arise.
>
>> All the stations I bought tickets at were staffed and either I bought
>> the tickets on line (the Newcastle/Berwick trip) or I used the TVM.
>
> My concern isn't entirely theoretical, because earlier in the year I
> caught a train from an unmanned station which for two consecutive days
> (I was unsighted about earlier and later days) the sole TVM was broken[1].
>
> The trip (whose fare was about £3) was somewhat spur of the moment, and
> ordering such as ticket online in advance is a massive overkill.
> Especially as I wasn't sure if I was going to be needing the train for
> the return trip.
>
>> I’ve just remembered there were also some Edinburgh-Prestonpans or
>> vice versa trips; again TVMs worked.
>
> Yes, they work most of the time (except when sulking and refusing to
> take Amex).
>
>> In my own recent experience (~5 years or more) I think I’ve only ever
>> come across a single broken TVM and I had time to report that - it
>> gave up the ghost while I was using it - and used the machine next to it.
>
> I've seen them much more often than that. And it's not just those single
> points of failure. Another station is "manned" (except the windows had
> been closed for days due to staff shortages) and therefore the three
> TVMs had run out of blank ticket stock.
>
> Shit happens, but I'd like to see much more done to assure the public
> that when this shit happens in compulsory tick zones, it's not the
> passenger who suffers.
>
> [1] I reported the issue at my destination, but the staff couldn't have
>     been less interested. Perhaps because the TVM first station was
>     operated by a different TOC. But we are straying into turf-wars
>     here, which is a rather different kettle of worms.

I find TfW operatives and ATW before them most helpful in matters
relating to gWr and XC. They will happily sell me gWr only products
even from railway stations not served by gWr and hand over compensation
forms for "foreign" companies.

When I travelled on XC with only my email receipt the guard quite
happily gripped the receipt and said he would report the problem as I'd
been unable to do so. From my point of view gripping my receipt was a
good move as I had proof of authority to travel.

On 23/12/2021 06:45, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <hvt3sgt7isfho097l0hn626p6p2fmqpqar@4ax.com>, at 15:51:30 on
> Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Perhaps there are hidden folders or files, as on PCs?
>
> Maybe there are. But surely people familiar with the way phones work
> (and we seem to be surrounded by them) should be able to tell us this.
> And unless the folders can be easily un-hidden, it rather makes the risk
> of people hacking the tickets stored in them moot.
>
> As sudden thought: rather than use the phone itself to explore the
> folders - again, we are surrounded by people who claim all they need
> is a phone - how about attaching it to a laptop?
>
> And suddenly, there are 2,100 app data items to trawl through.  About
> quarter are folders, and of the rest the biggest set are .CNT which are
> apparently help files. There are no pdf's nor anything showing in the
> train app folders.
>
> So I'm still on the hunt for where the app is putting the e-tickets, and
> what format they are in.

Android, based on Linux, has several features which this software may or
may not use. Roland will know all this, but others may be interested.

Files with names beginning with a dot are hidden by default but a decent
file manager app will reveal them on request. This is not a security
feature; it is for convenience when storing temporary files for internal
use, such as a note of which podcast to resume playing and where.

Each file is owned by a "user". One user will correspond to the actual
person using the phone, but others exist for internal use. Files can be
protected so that only the owning user can read them. In particular, a
directory (folder) might be protected so that only a special user
associated with a ticket app can list its files. The only way to
reveal them is to "root" (jailbreak) the phone. However, some software,
notably banking apps, refuses to run on rooted phones in case they have
been modified fraudulently. Ticketing software may well take the same
precaution in case m-tickets have been duplicated.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq049s$4jk$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:11:24 on Wed, 22 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a document, but
>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or large tablet.
>>>>
>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>
>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>
>> Not a single person other than Roland has suggested using a phone to read
>> or edit long documents. Specifically Recliner hasn’t suggested this.
>
> What has been suggested, however, is that a phone is adequate for any
> online IT task, and at one stage a suggestion that if I found reading
> small screens a problem, perhaps I should get my eyes tested.
>
The only person to have postulated the notion that a phone is adequate for
any online IT task is you. Nobody else has.

In message <spqhjn$gq6$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:21:43 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spqf87$uta$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:28 on Mon, 20 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>>>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>>>>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>>>>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode
>>>>>>> seems very
>>>>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>>>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
>>>>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>>>>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
>>>>> devious but dim.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
>>>
>>> Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop the
>>> text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The common
>>> fraud is to try to alter the date.
>>
>> You know that an in-app ticket is a pdf? They present quite differently
>> to the same information arriving by email.
>>
>> Most people probably don't even have the equivalent of a "File Manager"
>> on their phone, to even start poking around to find where the travel app
>> has squirreled away the data.
>>
>> But as you ought to expect by now, I have such an app on my phone, and I
>> see there's an "android" folder, with 129 sub-folders [I have a lot of
>> apps on my phone] including for example wales.tfw.rail.app created on
>> Dec 14, 2021 and com.tfwrail created on Dec 4, 2020.
>>
>> Neither have any files inside (or ones it's prepared to disclose,
>> anyway).
>>
>> Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if they
>> see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>>
>> We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
>> filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
>> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
>
>It’s getting tiresome now.

I can't tell if you know app developers (or whoever) and have asked
them these specific questions, or seen the answers somewhere else, or
are extrapolating the idea of pdf attachments possibly beyond breaking
point. But anyway, let's try to break the log-jam later, with some
hands-on testing.

>If the ticket is available as an e-ticket it’s pretty likely that the
>Aztec code in an in app presentation is going to be the same as one
>that can be emailed to you.

The code itself is obviously the same one, but the question is what form
does it arrive at the phone (and if we are speculating about editing it,
in the place is it stored).

Given the extent I can zoom into an emailed pdf ticket, and the edges of
the barcode remaining crisp, I conclude that the code is indeed a vector
representation, not a bitmap wrapped inside a pdf. My phone won't zoom
either in or out of an in-app ticket, but that's not conclusive proof
it's by that stage a bitmap, however if it is a pdf, then the app
obviously has to have an integral PDF viewer.

It's entirely possible, that if it is a bitmap, the conversion is done
on the server, and something other than a PDF sent to the App to embed
(not just the barcode, but all the other information about the ticket
too).

Some of the "other information" is always extracted (or is it again,
sent separately) in order to populate the catalogue of "tickets in this
wallet". As a minimum the date and end points.

>Remember that if it is an e-ticket you can get it as an emailed pdf.

So far, most of apps that have been tried out in this thread do have PDF
as a least one of the delivery options (the remainder of the options
being somewhat random - god forbid there was a map or something like the
GTR contactless one[1]). However, I loaded the GWR app just now and the
choice for a typical ticket with one change but predominantly GWR
served, is between:

"a digital e-ticket to use on your phone" and
"collect at station"

It doesn't actually *say* if the digital e-ticket is PDF or in-app.

I tried a different station pair closer together and a cheaper fare (and
if it matters, GWR only metals), and the "collect at station" (but it
was the same GWR starting station!!!) disappears. Oh well, only £1.50
so...

Many hangups later (including after logging in, it throwing away the
journey details and going back to a blank OJP entry screen; and having
to log into the Card Company website to get a verification code for the
£1.50 transaction)...

....it won't allow me to take a screenshot of the receipt. I wonder if
it's been generically disabled in the app, or a co-incidence [in fact
I've never seen that message before]. Oh well, I have another phone so I
can take a photo[2].

And unsurprisingly it won't let me take a screenshot of the ticket
itself, either (which has silently arrived in-app, so it *is* possible).

Back at my email account, it did send me a PDF ticket too, but the
rubric is a little different, so it's not even just re-positioned the
various items, but several are noticeably recast; examples include:

PDF In-app

Field is Titled "Adult" Field is titled "Adult/Child"
Data is "16-17 Saver" Data is "Adult"

Field is absent Field is titled "Railcard"
(Data is absent) Data is "16-17 Saver"

Phone# is 0345 7000 125 Phone number is +44 345 700 0125

Silent about BOJ Mentions BOJ not permitted[3]

Issued subject to NRCOT and CIV Issued subject to NRCOC
^^^^^^^^^ ^
So they seem likely to have been produced by disjoint processes, and the
in-app is not only *not* the PDF being viewed in-app, but isn't
implausibly the PDF scraped locally on arrival, and reformatted.

>Even if it is obtained as an in app ticket, if it’s an e-ticket it’s
>perfectly allowable to screen shot it. It’s only m-tickets that have to
>remain app bound.

I haven't looked at the numerous T&C in detail, recently. Have you, or
is this speculation?

Of course, if the app prevents screenshots (like the GWR apparently
does), then they might think they don't need to mention this aspect. But
maybe you can buy the same ticket off other apps which might not have
crippled the screenshot facility when in the foreground.

[1] <https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-
pdfs-and-documents/key-documents/gtr-1805-ret-keygo-area-map-v27.pdf>

[2] My #1 phone reads the QR code in the photo taken by #2 phone, and
with a bit of framing and sizing I could probably get it to look
sufficiently like an original to fool a gripper. But that'd only be
cloning that ticket for that trip today [and who knows if the
gripper's scanner on the short trip, and the gates at the
destination, do real-time de-duping], and not as a mechanism for
creating forgeries for future trips, because that would require re-
authoring the barcode too.

In message <sq1pn3$stj$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:22:59 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 23/12/2021 06:45, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <hvt3sgt7isfho097l0hn626p6p2fmqpqar@4ax.com>, at 15:51:30
>>on Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> Perhaps there are hidden folders or files, as on PCs?

>> Maybe there are. But surely people familiar with the way phones work
>>(and we seem to be surrounded by them) should be able to tell us this.
>>And unless the folders can be easily un-hidden, it rather makes the
>>risk of people hacking the tickets stored in them moot.

>> As sudden thought: rather than use the phone itself to explore the
>>folders - again, we are surrounded by people who claim all they need
>> is a phone - how about attaching it to a laptop?

>> And suddenly, there are 2,100 app data items to trawl through. 
>>About quarter are folders, and of the rest the biggest set are .CNT
>>which are apparently help files. There are no pdf's nor anything
>>showing in the train app folders.

>> So I'm still on the hunt for where the app is putting the e-tickets,
>>and what format they are in.
>
>Android, based on Linux, has several features which this software may or
>may not use. Roland will know all this, but others may be interested.
>
>Files with names beginning with a dot are hidden by default but a decent
>file manager app will reveal them on request. This is not a security
>feature; it is for convenience when storing temporary files for internal
>use, such as a note of which podcast to resume playing and where.
>
>Each file is owned by a "user". One user will correspond to the actual
>person using the phone, but others exist for internal use. Files can be
>protected so that only the owning user can read them. In particular, a
>directory (folder) might be protected so that only a special user
>associated with a ticket app can list its files. The only way to
>reveal them is to "root" (jailbreak) the phone. However, some software,
>notably banking apps, refuses to run on rooted phones in case they have
>been modified fraudulently. Ticketing software may well take the same
>precaution in case m-tickets have been duplicated.

I recall that the Oyster app refused to run on a rooted phone I had
several years ago. [It had been rooted in order to receive new versions
of Android, which was being updated with terrifying regularity at the
time, and few OEMs felt compelled to keep up with, for the installed
base]
--
Roland Perry