Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sodd6p$leg$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:30:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sod3o8$i0o$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:49:12 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>> machine is
>>>>>>>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>> e-ticket,
>>>>>>>>> for example).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then you have to poke around the phone to find the attachment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any decent email client will show it to you a an attachment that you
>>>>> may have to click on.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My work phone doesn't even have a PDF viewer on it (although that may be
>>>>>> unusual, it's apparently the default for the organisation who have lent
>>>>>> it to me).
>>>>>
>>>>> You have no phones of your own that you could use?
>>>>
>>>> Ah, I’d forgotten that this was a special Roland only problem. The rest of
>>>> us can get emailed pdfs without much problem.
>>>
>>> But not necessarily five minutes before the train is due to leave.
>>
>> Why would it take more than a few seconds?
>
> Because of all the poking around on your phone required to select a
> suitable ticket, and pay for it.
>
> Some sites even try quite hard to persuade people *not* to buy tickets
> for a train that's leaving in the immediate future, presumably on the
> grounds that they expect you to be doing it from home and don't want you
> missing the train.
>
> And it also assumes the flow you ant *even has* a PDF ticket. Was I
> wasting my time posting about specific examples of ones which for
> entirely non-intuitive reasons don't?
>
>>>> As I see it, most of the time it’s much less risky than hoping a
>>>> ticket machine is working, either to purchase the ticket or to print
>>>> one out you bought online, or,hoping the ticket office is open or
>>>> without a queue.
>>>
>>> False dichotomy. They should have other schemes in place when the
>>> facilities for buying tickets are broken (or not adequately manned).
>>>
>>> That's the whole point of my original posting. Not putting the entire
>>> burden for their failure onto the passenger.
>>>
>>>> You can even do it at home and print a paper version.
>>>>
>>>> There’s nothing to stop Roland forwarding the email from his neutered work
>>>> phone to something more adequate.
>>>
>>> Apart from that being against the rules from the IT department. "NEVER
>>> forward emails to a private email account."
>>>
>>>> My wife, who has little interest in computers other than as a work tool,
>>>> regularly travels for work on a pdf ticket. She orders it online through
>>>> the work travel portal, it gets sent to her work email address (which she
>>>> can only read on the works laptop) and she forwards it to her personal
>>>> iPhone.
>>>
>>> Obviously she has a less risk-averse IT department.
>>>
>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing machine
>>>> at the station.
>>>
>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might buy
>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fine!
>>
>> What palaver? Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the PDF
>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically. And, no, you don't need an
>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>
> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?

Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is intriguing and
amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sodd60$l4q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:30:09 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>> Am 03.12.2021 um 14:39 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>>> In message <sod3o8$i0o$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:49:12 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You can even do it at home and print a paper version.
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s nothing to stop Roland forwarding the email from his neutered
>>>>> work phone to something more adequate.
>>>>
>>>> Apart from that being against the rules from the IT department. "NEVER
>>>> forward emails to a private email account."
>>>
>>> The commandment immediately above being: "Never use your work
>>> infrastructrue for private purposes".
>>>
>>> Most other companies have rules like
>>> "Confidential or internal information must not be sent to any e-mail
>>> account outside the company. Do not forward mails containing such
>>> information to your private IT infrastructure or email accounts."
>>>
>>> Formally, this forbids me from synching my work calendar with my private
>>> smart phone because the titles of some meetings are "internal"
>>> (customers or competitors could theoretically learn things they are not
>>> supposed to know - e.g. that customer 'XYZ' has certain IT problems or
>>> that we consider a certain situation to be a bug before we have formally
>>> acknowledged that to the customer).
>>> Duplicating my free/busy information to the private smart phone would be
>>> allowed though.
>>
>> Well exactly. Every *sensible* prohibition I’ve seen (I accept that the
>> security services etc may differ) forbids auto forwarding emails to your
>> private account and manually forwarding confidential email. You might have
>> good cause to forward some emails to your private account, such as sending
>> a copy of your P60 or pay slips that can only be accessed on the company
>> Intranet.
>
> The employer would argue that you should print them off *from the
> Intranet*, or perhaps point out that *they* have sent you copies to your
> personal email [yes, I know, but banning all employees from sending any
> external emails, cramps the style a bit], if you could only be bothered
> to read them.
>
>> If your employer forbids you from forwarding a train ticket it
>> might be good grounds to ponder a more sensible employer.
>
> Ah yes, the rather last-century "I'm C++ programmer in such demand I can
> walk into a better job tomorrow" argument.

The idea that you print a P60 or a pay slip rather than keep an electronic
copy is a bit old school these days. Not a bit of dead tree has passed
between me and my accountant for a number of years now.

Au contraire - power is in the hands of employees at the moment. People are
changing jobs in record numbers. Silly rules make good employees leave,
leaving you with the rule observant duffers.

In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing machine
>>>> at the station.
>>>
>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might buy
>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fine!
>>
>> What palaver? Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the PDF
>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically. And, no, you don't need an
>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>
>Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.

My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
pre-navigating them through the maze.

Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
Vogon.
--
Roland Perry

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodd60$l4q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:30:09 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 03.12.2021 um 14:39 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>>>> In message <sod3o8$i0o$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:49:12 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> You can even do it at home and print a paper version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s nothing to stop Roland forwarding the email from his neutered
>>>>>> work phone to something more adequate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from that being against the rules from the IT department. "NEVER
>>>>> forward emails to a private email account."
>>>>
>>>> The commandment immediately above being: "Never use your work
>>>> infrastructrue for private purposes".
>>>>
>>>> Most other companies have rules like
>>>> "Confidential or internal information must not be sent to any e-mail
>>>> account outside the company. Do not forward mails containing such
>>>> information to your private IT infrastructure or email accounts."
>>>>
>>>> Formally, this forbids me from synching my work calendar with my private
>>>> smart phone because the titles of some meetings are "internal"
>>>> (customers or competitors could theoretically learn things they are not
>>>> supposed to know - e.g. that customer 'XYZ' has certain IT problems or
>>>> that we consider a certain situation to be a bug before we have formally
>>>> acknowledged that to the customer).
>>>> Duplicating my free/busy information to the private smart phone would be
>>>> allowed though.
>>>
>>> Well exactly. Every *sensible* prohibition I’ve seen (I accept that the
>>> security services etc may differ) forbids auto forwarding emails to your
>>> private account and manually forwarding confidential email. You might have
>>> good cause to forward some emails to your private account, such as sending
>>> a copy of your P60 or pay slips that can only be accessed on the company
>>> Intranet.
>>
>> The employer would argue that you should print them off *from the
>> Intranet*, or perhaps point out that *they* have sent you copies to your
>> personal email [yes, I know, but banning all employees from sending any
>> external emails, cramps the style a bit], if you could only be bothered
>> to read them.
>>
>>> If your employer forbids you from forwarding a train ticket it
>>> might be good grounds to ponder a more sensible employer.
>>
>> Ah yes, the rather last-century "I'm C++ programmer in such demand I can
>> walk into a better job tomorrow" argument.
>
> The idea that you print a P60 or a pay slip rather than keep an electronic
> copy is a bit old school these days. Not a bit of dead tree has passed
> between me and my accountant for a number of years now.

Yes, same here.

>
> Au contraire - power is in the hands of employees at the moment. People are
> changing jobs in record numbers. Silly rules make good employees leave,
> leaving you with the rule observant duffers.

Yes, indeed. Roland seems to think we're still in the 1970s. Anyone with
useful skills is in high demand now.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>
>> For which journeys, for example?
>>
>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
>> for example).
>
> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
> e-ticket I suppose).
>

"How to get your ticket(s)
E-Ticket
We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
it. Guide to E-Tickets
Smartcard: load from the Greater Anglia app (Android or
¡OS 13 and above)
You can load onto your Smartcard with just a tap. Please note only 5 smart
products can be loaded onto your Smartcard"

> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>

"E-Ticket
We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
it. Guide to E-Tickets"

> Ely to Kings Cross

"E-Ticket
We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
it. Guide to E-Tickets"

> or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
> network by about four years ago].
>

"E-Ticket
We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
it. Guide to E-Tickets"

> Nice try, but no cigar.

🤷‍♀️

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>> machine is
>>>>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>> e-ticket,
>>>>>> for example).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>
>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>
>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>
>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>> associated with it.
>>
>> And that is a problem how?
>>
>>>
>>> And then you have to poke around the phone to find the attachment.
>>
>> Any decent email client will show it to you a an attachment that you
>> may have to click on.
>>
>>>
>>> My work phone doesn't even have a PDF viewer on it (although that may be
>>> unusual, it's apparently the default for the organisation who have lent
>>> it to me).
>>
>> You have no phones of your own that you could use?
>>
>
> Ah, I’d forgotten that this was a special Roland only problem. The rest of
> us can get emailed pdfs without much problem. As I see it, most of the time
> it’s much less risky than hoping a ticket machine is working, either to
> purchase the ticket or to print one out you bought online, or,hoping the
> ticket office is open or without a queue. You can even do it at home and
> print a paper version.
>
>

I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing machine
>>>>> at the station.
>>>>
>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might buy
>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fine!
>>>
>>> What palaver? Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the PDF
>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically. And, no, you don't need an
>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>
>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>
> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>
> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
> Vogon.

Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
user interfaces is going to fix that.

On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:09:30 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>
>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>
>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
>>> for example).
>>
>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>
>
>"How to get your ticket(s)
>E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets
>Smartcard: load from the Greater Anglia app (Android or
>¡OS 13 and above)
>You can load onto your Smartcard with just a tap. Please note only 5 smart
>products can be loaded onto your Smartcard"
>
>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>
>
>"E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>
>> Ely to Kings Cross
>
>"E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>
>> or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>> network by about four years ago].
>>
>
>"E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>
>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>
>????
>

And, as I just posted, you don't need to email the pdf, it just
appears in the app.
>
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>> machine is
>>>>>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>> e-ticket,
>>>>>>> for example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>
>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>
>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>
>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>> associated with it.
>>>
>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And then you have to poke around the phone to find the attachment.
>>>
>>> Any decent email client will show it to you a an attachment that you
>>> may have to click on.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My work phone doesn't even have a PDF viewer on it (although that may be
>>>> unusual, it's apparently the default for the organisation who have lent
>>>> it to me).
>>>
>>> You have no phones of your own that you could use?
>>>
>>
>> Ah, I’d forgotten that this was a special Roland only problem. The rest of
>> us can get emailed pdfs without much problem. As I see it, most of the time
>> it’s much less risky than hoping a ticket machine is working, either to
>> purchase the ticket or to print one out you bought online, or,hoping the
>> ticket office is open or without a queue. You can even do it at home and
>> print a paper version.
>>
>>
>
> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)

On 3 Dec 2021 15:32, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
[snip]
>>
>>Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>
> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.

The Gmail client on every current Android can happily cope with
multiple POP3 accounts.

> You'd have to ask the people who write mobile phone operating systems
> why they are so fiddly to use for rather a lot of "one click" stuff on a
> desktop. But of course another reason is that my phone doesn't have a
> mouse, combined with a screen which has a mere fraction of the real
> estate of my desktop.

forwarding using Gmail isn't very hard.

On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 17:35:52 +0000, Rupert Moss-Eccardt
<nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:

>On 3 Dec 2021 15:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>[snip]
>>>
>>>Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>
>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>
>The Gmail client on every current Android can happily cope with
>multiple POP3 accounts.

It can, although accessing POP3 accounts from multiple devices can cause
issues with availability of mail, since mail is supposed to be deleted
from a POP3 account once downloaded. There are workarounds to this, but
they're not reliable. Accessing multiple IMAP (or, for that matter,
Microsoft Exchange, which the Gmail app also supports) accounts is much
more robust and more reliable.

Having said that, POP3 is now such an antiquated means of handling email
that, in my opinion, anyone still choosing to use it instead of IMAP
deserves all the pain that they are inflicting on themselves. And I'd be
genuinely surprised if any organisation was mandating the use of POP3
for its staff, contractors or members, since IMAP or Exchange gives the
organisation much greater control over the mail (including enforced
retention and deletion schedules), something which is often necessary
for data protection reasons.

Mark

On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>> machine
>>>>> at the station.
>>>>
>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>> buy
>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>
>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>> PDF
>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>> need an
>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>
>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>
> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>
> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
> Vogon.

I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.

I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.

I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.

In message <sodffq$7c0$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:09:30 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>
>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>
>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
>>> for example).
>>
>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>
>
>"How to get your ticket(s)
>E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets
>Smartcard: load from the Greater Anglia app (Android or
>¡OS 13 and above)
>You can load onto your Smartcard with just a tap. Please note only 5 smart
>products can be loaded onto your Smartcard"
>
>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>
>"E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>
>> Ely to Kings Cross
>
>"E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>
>> or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>> network by about four years ago].
>
>"E-Ticket
>We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>it. Guide to E-Tickets"

What are you using - I picked the most obvious: Greater Anglia's
website.
--
Roland Perry

On 03/12/2021 13:59, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>> machine is  broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>> e-ticket,  for example).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues
>>>>>>> regarding
>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>> collection).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>> (although
>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF
>>>>>>> [so much
>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>
>>>>>   This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>   Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>
>>>> And that is a problem how?
>
>>>  Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>> my phone.
>>
>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>
> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
> purchases).
>
> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>

Meanwhile in the real world I get such emails both on my phone and on
the desktop, yes you can do such things now. If I have to then
forwarding stuff from the phone is a couple of finger taps.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 03/12/2021 16:09, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>> machine is
>>>>>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>> e-ticket,
>>>>>>> for example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>
>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>
>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>
>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>> associated with it.
>>>
>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And then you have to poke around the phone to find the attachment.
>>>
>>> Any decent email client will show it to you a an attachment that you
>>> may have to click on.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My work phone doesn't even have a PDF viewer on it (although that may be
>>>> unusual, it's apparently the default for the organisation who have lent
>>>> it to me).
>>>
>>> You have no phones of your own that you could use?
>>>
>>
>> Ah, I’d forgotten that this was a special Roland only problem. The rest of
>> us can get emailed pdfs without much problem. As I see it, most of the time
>> it’s much less risky than hoping a ticket machine is working, either to
>> purchase the ticket or to print one out you bought online, or,hoping the
>> ticket office is open or without a queue. You can even do it at home and
>> print a paper version.
>>
>>
>
> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>

I switched to a laser printer, that solved the dried ink problem and
it's up and running within seconds of me wanting it rather than waiting
for the head clean and reset.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>
>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>
>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>
>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>> associated with it.
>>
>> And that is a problem how?
>
> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
> my phone.
>

So create, perhaps, rolandstickets@hotmail.co.uk and access it via
<http://www.hotmail.co.uk>, or Outlook app.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>

It is?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <so2eme$8ot$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:48:30 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 10:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so2a8r$coh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:58 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>> Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>> train  really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>> on the  Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people  to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>> before  it reaches that stage.
>>>>
>>>> Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the
>>>> gripperissues a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?
>>>>
>>>> In Germany, the escalation steps are
>>>> 1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
>>>> 2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
>>>> 3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
>>>> 4) prosecution
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
>>>> there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
>>>> working correctly.
>
>>> The issue here is how many people are confident at doing step #2,
>>> what evidence do they have to support the appeal, and how often are
>>> they upheld (or more pertinently, wrongly not upheld).
>>
>> The issue here is whether it is a real problem or just scare-mongering.
>> Fare evasion is a real problem, do we just ignore it on the off-chance
>> that one person in a thousand might have their tender feelings hurt?
>
> It's not a case of hurt feelings, but the hassle of having to appeal and
> the stress of wondering if they'll accept what may well be anecdotal
> evidence. And if they don't a £100 penalty to pay.
>
> Perhaps this increase will trigger a little more engagement in the
> public, reporting when things have gone wrong (like broken machines,
> excessive queues, and ultimately unfair penalties).
>
> While I accept there's a problem with systemic fare evasion by a
> minority, bear-traps for the well-meaning infrequent traveller are
> not good either.

What this might change is the "I'll buy a ticket if I'm caught but
otherwise it's a free ride" crowd.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> You can take whatever you like. I see honest passengers really
> concerned at the conflict between "compulsory ticket area" signage,
> and the inability to buy tickets. This needs resolving.
>
> Back in the day when such zones were introduced, there were also "Permit
> to travel" machines, but for whatever reason they are no longer.
>

A few still exist, I saw one at Windsor last week.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 09:34:00 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <lf1gqgturl00lnhudm3nlgugvo8i8o8euj@4ax.com>, at 08:52:41 on
>Thu, 2 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:09:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <pegfqgdvhogujdojld1la6idac32145aev@4ax.com>, at 18:59:56 on
>>>Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>>>>>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>>>>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>>>>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>>>>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>>>>>Freedom Pass.
>>>>>
>>>>>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>>>>>
>>>>They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.
>>>
>>>As you well know, the Freedom Pass has much wider availability than a
>>>regional ENCTS bus pass.
>>>
>>That depends on which version you have and where and when you are
>>trying to use it.
>
>Can you cite any which give free travel on the tube in London?
>
I didn't mention tube trains.
An ENCTS card issued outwith Greater London does not inevitably have
the same hours of validity as a Freedom Pass. The authority in which
you are travelling decides the hours of validity of your Freedom Pass
not TfL; for a "foreign" ENCTS pass they are only obliged to grant the
national concession. In the vast majority of local authorities in
England a Freedom Pass only gives you the same travel privileges as
the locals get; AFAIAA e.g. you can use a Merseyside ENCTS card on
Mersey Ferries and Merseyrail but not a Freedom Pass.

>>>>It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
>>>>own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
>>>>common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
>>>>interpretation of what is your usual residence.
>>>>
>>>>>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>>>>>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>>>>>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>>>>>
>>>>No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
>>>>with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
>>>>bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.
>>>>
>>>>"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
>>>>trams."
>>>>https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets
>>>
>>>Does that include people illegally using mobility scooters, because they
>>>aren't officially invalids?
>>>
>>You don't need official approval to be an invalid.
>
>In theory if you aren't an invalid, you aren't supposed to use the
>concessions given to invalid carriages (of which mobility scooters are
>nowadays one of the most visible incarnations).
>
You can be an invalid without being a disabled person.

>>>>>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>
>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I want
>> to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>
>
>
> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was "on
> the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>
> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce complicated
> ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make mistakes - and
> treat them all as if they were criminals, even when much of the blame
> lies with bad managements.
>
> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was inevitably
> going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the correct fare.
>

Meanwhile some passengers seem to have the attitude that it's a free trip
unless they're actively challenged, ie by barriers or a staffed ticket
check. They'll happily walk right past open , queue-free, staffed ticket
offices/windows, past functioning, queue-free ticket machines, and only buy
a ticket when challenged.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>> were invented?
>
> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
> expressly for that purpose.

They still exist in many places, including Paddington, Reading and Bristol
Temple Meads.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>
>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>> my phone.
>>>>
>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>
>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>> purchases).
>>
>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>
> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>

Can't you have an email client on your phone to access the one one specific
POP3 account which you tickets get delivered to?

Anna Noyd-Dryvee

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 21:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 19:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>>>> on the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>>>> before it reaches that stage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I
>>>>>> want to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was
>>>>> "on the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>>>>
>>>> Another fan site?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
>>>>> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce
>>>>> complicated ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make
>>>>> mistakes - and treat them all as if they were criminals, even when
>>>>> much of the blame lies with bad managements.
>>>>
>>>> That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line,
>>>> from machines at the stations and so on. Major stations still have
>>>> ticket offices. What is difficult about that. People can cope with
>>>> complicated ticketing systems when it comes to booking a trip to the
>>>> Costa del Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so difficult to buy a
>>>> train ticket?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
>>>>> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was
>>>>> inevitably going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the
>>>>> correct fare.
>>>>
>>>> Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
>>>> many more people or just sit and whinge about it? And, just to annoy
>>>> Recliner, where are we going to find all these people to sit at Much
>>>> Binding in the Marsh twiddling their thumbs in the hope that someone
>>>> might want to buy a ticket?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No point in continuing arguments with management apologists. No matter
>>> what I write, you will disagree.
>>>
>>
>> Another one who descends to insults when you have no convincing argument.
>>
>
> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
> were invented?
>
>

Ticket offices in more places, staffed barriers in more places (I remember
them being removed from Llandudno and Llandudno Junction, for example), and
a 'managed-decline' policy of 'nobody actually cares' which got us to where
we are today?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
> first place.
>

Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.

Anna Noyd-Dryver