On 07/12/2021 19:06, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <solpeo$47p$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:48:40 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 06/12/2021 18:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <soko64$ccm$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:52 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>> used  yet.
>>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>>>  How well does that work when you are stood in the station car
>>>>> park,  having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the
>>>>> ticket  machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>>>>  That's the use-case which started this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are
>>>>>> something  like "your tickets".
>>>>>
>>>> Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email address
>>>> they can access from the phone in their hand. Problem solved.
>>>  Only if they've previously set up a special account on that site
>>> under  that address. Otherwise it takes too long. And why should
>>> people have to  bend over backwards for train ticket vendors, when
>>> there are thousands  of other ecommerce services which don't put the
>>> same hurdles in the way  of prospective customers?
>>
>> You order stuff from Amazon you have to set up an account with email
>> address and credit card details, same with most e-commerce sites. What
>> is different about doing it with a railway company, apart, of course,
>> it would then deprive you of the opportunity to have one of your
>> ludicrous rants about how the railways are deliberately picking on you?
>
> Yes, but it doesn't have to be a special Amazon-only email address.
> Because the Amazon delivery driver doesn't insist I show them a pdf
> order acknowledgement on my phone before handing over the package.
>
>> Anybody who makes a habit of travelling on trains will have such
>> details already set up.
>
> Ah! You've finally got the memo. Most people don't have a habit of
> travelling on trains. Unless they are a commuter with a season
> ticket, when this entire discussion is moot.

But you do and are still, apparently, unable to cope with the basics.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 07/12/2021 19:15, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <son784$mkp$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:10 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
> Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>> 2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>> used yet.
>>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>
>>>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>>>> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>>>> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>
>>>>  I have never encountered an email client that does not, by default,
>>>> sort by time/date with newest on top.
>
>>>  You need to get out more, and also realise that email users
>>> sometimes  don't use the default settings.
>>
>> Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
>> choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
>> because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
>> problem would not present itself.
>
> My email configuration is the one which works best for 99.9% of the
> emails I receive.
>
>> That's your free choice, and perhaps the other benefits of organising
>> yourself this way make it worthwhile.  The implication of this is that
>> it is not possible to extrapolate from your sepcific unsatisfactory
>> user experience to the wider population.  This means that it is less
>> likely that a large public facing organisation is going to make
>> choices in how they do business to accommodate your unique way of
>> doing things, as opposed to going with a solution that works for
>> everyone else.  The question you have to consider is whether the
>> drawbacks of organising yourself in a way that creates these problems
>> provides wider benefits that outweigh these drawbacks.
>
> A bit repetitive there, old chap.
>
> And no, I'm not going to organise my entire email around the particular
> requirements demanded by a self-centred once every six month
> distress-purchase supplier such as Greater Anglia, who I am only using
> on the smartphone because they can't be bothered to:
>
> (a) Keep their ticket machines working adequately and
> (b) Have a fall back for when they aren't working, other than
>     fining their customers £100.
>
> A masterclass in telling your potential customers that you really wish
> they drove, instead.

And just how often are the machines not working because they have been
vandalised yet again? That's presumably also the fault of the railways.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 19:00:11 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <0c2tqgh46kl0dehos0srkgpl6bpg670cgc@4ax.com>, at 22:16:41 on
>Mon, 6 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>
>>>Good news is, the screen was readable, the one at a hospital I visited
>>>a couple of years ago the backlight appeared to be broken, and in the
>>>absence of any street lighting, it was impossible to use without a
>>>torch.
>>>
>>Sounds like the machines round the back of Northwick Park Hospital
>>although I'm not sure if they actually had a backlight.
>
>I suppose it's possible they never had a backlight - I just assumed that
>given they systemically demand day patients arrive before dawn in the
>Winter, that they'd have equipped the ticket machines appropriately.
>
They are possibly more of a daytime anti-commuter measure, being
usually rather sparse at night with several bus routes available and
some unrestricted post-rush hour parking available nearby.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 19:20:14 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/12/2021 18:52, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 10:58:17 +0000, Bevan Price
>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/12/2021 07:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 22:13, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in
>>>>>>>>>>>> detail.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much,
>>>>>>>>>>> and hence
>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You
>>>>>>>>>> were a
>>>>>>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>>>>>> that era.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>>>>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a
>>>>>>>>> competent person at a station. A simple transaction should take as
>>>>>>>>> little as 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it
>>>>>>>>> takes that long to find the right website, never mind the time
>>>>>>>>> taken to find the required stations & tickets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one
>>>>>>>>> I used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>>>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>>>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue
>>>>>>>>> a ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>>>>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>>>>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>>>>>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>>>>>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>>>>>> and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>>>>>> usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>>>>>> they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in
>>>>>> to the ticket machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from
>>>>>> Sainsburys.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between
>>>>> companies that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was
>>>>> using to buy the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my
>>>>> statements used to mention nectar points, but I could never be
>>>>> bothered to investigate further.
>>>>>
>>>>> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>>>>> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>>>>> discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
>>>> you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
>>>> save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
>>>> you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
>>>> trying to rip you off.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I don't use Sainsburys, it is hardly surprising that I knew nothing
>>> about Nectar points
>>>
>> You seem to be describing Tesco who issue two types of voucher :-
>> 1.Money off, in proportion to the accumulated points.
>> 2.Money off, not obviously related to points and valid for limited
>> periods for purchases over a certain amount.
>> The second type seems to have arrived more often in recent times.
>>
>
>I am reliably (!) informed they both do that :-)
>
Sainsbury's money off vouchers are mostly chugged out by the till (I
don't remember getting any of the above type 2 ones in the post) with
no apparent connection to how many Nectar points you might or might
not have. Tesco's type 1 are posted quarterly and proportionate to
your points while type 2 seems to be mostly seasonal and with no such
clear connecrion.
Another difference is that Tesco vouchers have a very long validity
while Sainsbury's only last about a month at the most but effectively
get replaced by later vouchers for something else if not used; if you
have unused vouchers which have just expired around the same date, the
machine will often spew out quite a lot more than usual.

On 07/12/2021 20:50, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 19:20:14 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2021 18:52, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 10:58:17 +0000, Bevan Price
>>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/12/2021 07:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 22:13, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> detail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and hence
>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You
>>>>>>>>>>> were a
>>>>>>>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>>>>>>> that era.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>>>>>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a
>>>>>>>>>> competent person at a station. A simple transaction should take as
>>>>>>>>>> little as 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it
>>>>>>>>>> takes that long to find the right website, never mind the time
>>>>>>>>>> taken to find the required stations & tickets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one
>>>>>>>>>> I used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>>>>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>>>>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue
>>>>>>>>>> a ticket.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>>>>>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>>>>>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>>>>>>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>>>>>>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>>>>>>> and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>>>>>>> usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>>>>>>> they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in
>>>>>>> to the ticket machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from
>>>>>>> Sainsburys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between
>>>>>> companies that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was
>>>>>> using to buy the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my
>>>>>> statements used to mention nectar points, but I could never be
>>>>>> bothered to investigate further.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>>>>>> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>>>>>> discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
>>>>> you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
>>>>> save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
>>>>> you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
>>>>> trying to rip you off.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I don't use Sainsburys, it is hardly surprising that I knew nothing
>>>> about Nectar points
>>>>
>>> You seem to be describing Tesco who issue two types of voucher :-
>>> 1.Money off, in proportion to the accumulated points.
>>> 2.Money off, not obviously related to points and valid for limited
>>> periods for purchases over a certain amount.
>>> The second type seems to have arrived more often in recent times.
>>>
>>
>> I am reliably (!) informed they both do that :-)
>>
> Sainsbury's money off vouchers are mostly chugged out by the till (I
> don't remember getting any of the above type 2 ones in the post) with
> no apparent connection to how many Nectar points you might or might
> not have. Tesco's type 1 are posted quarterly and proportionate to
> your points while type 2 seems to be mostly seasonal and with no such
> clear connecrion.
> Another difference is that Tesco vouchers have a very long validity
> while Sainsbury's only last about a month at the most but effectively
> get replaced by later vouchers for something else if not used; if you
> have unused vouchers which have just expired around the same date, the
> machine will often spew out quite a lot more than usual.

Morrisons still have a data collection card but no longer give points.
They still seem to give vouchers at the till, which usually give 10% off
a shop about 50% larger than the current one, e.g. if I spend £40 I may
receive a voucher for £6 off a £60+ shop. The smart move with a full
trolley may be to put about a third of it through first as a separate
transaction, and hope for a voucher to cover the rest of the goods.

In message <solh2d$6v8$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:25:33 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 06/12/2021 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sokojc$g5b$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:56 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 06/12/2021 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sogl50$sb9$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:04:32 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it
>>>>>>>>>causes you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have
>>>>>>>>routine  e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need
>>>>>>>>to forward them  either to my desktop (which is my preferred
>>>>>>>>audit trail for this  kind of  thing, and also the appliance
>>>>>>>>with a printer, which my phone isn't) or  to the person who I
>>>>>>>>bought the ticket for (which is at least half  of my  purchases).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my
>>>>>>>>desktop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well you’d better get used to it or stop travelling by train.
>>>>>>>The direction  of all ticketing is heading away from ticket
>>>>>>>offices and ticket  machines,  and especially the use of cash.
>>>>>>>It will be salami slices, with a few  wrong  turns along the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is why I buy my ticket from the staffed ticket office at my
>>>>>>local
>>>>>> station.
>>
>>>>  Lucky you. And what if the ticket office has a notice in the
>>>>window saying "I'm on my break, back in half an hour" - which is a
>>>>favourite at  Ely? Unless there's another saying "due to staff
>>>>shortages, closed today".
>>
>>>>  That's the point when lots of people reluctantly start using the
>>>>ticket  machines, which promptly gets a ten minute queue, and then
>>>>runs out of  blanks, and the downward spiral begins.
>>>
>>> Guildford station has two entrances, the main one with a staffed
>>>ticket office on the down (town) side, and another on the up side
>>>that only has a couple of ticket machines. This one is the one that
>>>is heavily used by students from the university as the bus stops
>>>right outside. Most of whom will be buying individual tickets for
>>>one-off journeys. I've never known it to run out of ticket blanks
>>>and I suspect far more people use it than the one at Ely.
>>>
>>> Sounds like another hypothetical "can't work in East Anglia" problem.
>> Perhaps they have a more consistent demand for tickets from
>>machines, and therefore aren't caught on the hop when there's a surge
>>due to unscheduled ticket office closures.
>
>Tends to get busier at the end of the week with students going away for
>the weekend.
>
>> I discussed this with the staff the second or third time it
>>happened, and they said that someone would need to come out specially
>>from Cambridge to refill the machine. If *only* it had a 3tph train
>>service!!
>
>Must ask the guys at Guildford how often they refill the machines.

Also if they can do it themselves, or is it necessary to summon a person
from say Southampton to do it.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sooce3$vjs$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:24:51 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 07/12/2021 19:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <solpeo$47p$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:48:40 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 06/12/2021 18:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soko64$ccm$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:52 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4
>>>>>>Dec 2021,  nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>>>used  yet. Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found
>>>>>>>there on phone, tablet or computer, even if several days old.
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>  How well does that work when you are stood in the station car
>>>>>>park,  having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the
>>>>>>ticket  machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>>>>>  That's the use-case which started this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are
>>>>>>>something  like "your tickets".
>>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email
>>>>>address they can access from the phone in their hand. Problem solved.

>>>>  Only if they've previously set up a special account on that site
>>>>under  that address. Otherwise it takes too long. And why should
>>>>people have to  bend over backwards for train ticket vendors, when
>>>>there are thousands  of other ecommerce services which don't put the
>>>>same hurdles in the way  of prospective customers?
>>>
>>> You order stuff from Amazon you have to set up an account with email
>>>address and credit card details, same with most e-commerce sites.
>>>What is different about doing it with a railway company, apart, of
>>>course, it would then deprive you of the opportunity to have one of
>>>your ludicrous rants about how the railways are deliberately picking on you?

>> Yes, but it doesn't have to be a special Amazon-only email address.
>>Because the Amazon delivery driver doesn't insist I show them a pdf
>>order acknowledgement on my phone before handing over the package.
>>
>>> Anybody who makes a habit of travelling on trains will have such
>>>details already set up.

>> Ah! You've finally got the memo. Most people don't have a habit of
>>travelling on trains. Unless they are a commuter with a season
>> ticket, when this entire discussion is moot.
>
>But you do and are still, apparently, unable to cope with the basics.

My point is that "the Basics" should not include being compelled to set
up special email accounts and to carry a smartphone, and buy tickets in
a rush in the rain stood in the station car park, just to avoid a £100
fine if the TOC can't be bothered to keep their ticket machines working.

Or can't be bothered to implement a system of e-ticketing that's not as
cumbersome as emailing PDFs.

I have tried (both in the flesh, and as mystery purchases) every
conceivable combination of e-ticketing and m-ticketing and
smart-ticketing. After all, I have over a dozen ITSO cards, over thirty
ticketing apps on my phone, which also has NFC[1] for some of the more
hi-tech use-cases.

To suggest I "can't cope" is patently absurd.

However, I do perceive significant downsides to many aspects of
ticketing, which you and others appear oblivious to. Sadly, many people
who ask for my help with ticketing are firmly in the "travel a handful
of times a year, and the whole thing is a black art to them".

I've recently persuaded one of them to get a railcard on an app (rather
than a bit of plastic), but they aren't at all convinced. No doubt
that's another example of how travelling with a phone with a flat
battery might incur a £100 fine.

[1] Later this week I'll be trying my phone as a virtual Amex card, to
see if the TOC has figured out yet whether this is something they
expect the contactless pad on the TVM to accept. They've had two
years since I last tried, Covid having got in the way.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?

>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>that's a rather strange comment to make.

>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>they've worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>it's that layer (not the transport) which has the operational issues.
>
>Get a decent client, there are many around.

I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject dropped up
[Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly rated. But MRD
applies I suppose.

Which one would you suggest instead?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sokout$itq$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:05 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>
>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is intriguing and
>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>>
>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and hence
>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for purpose.
>
>For you, with your 20th century mindset. They work just fine for the rest
>of us.
>
>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>
>We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were a
>pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still stuck in
>that era.

See the reply I made to Grahame a few minutes ago. I'm quite sure I'm
using far more 21st century technology than either of you are, but
without the rose-tinted specs you clearly have.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sol6o9$n0j$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:28 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>
>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is intriguing and
>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>>>
>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and hence
>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for purpose.

>> For you, with your 20th century mindset. They work just fine for
>>the rest of us.
>>
>>> Perhaps you could remember that?

>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were
>>a pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>stuck in that era.
>>
>
>No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>organisations or governments; the converse should be true.

Exactly. We live in a world where all and sundry are externalising their
costs onto the public. And often not in a particularly easy to use way.

If we rewind a bit and go back to Oyster, that's a reasonably easy to
use system, as long as everything is working OK. Top the thing up on a
TVM, then use it for day after day. But if something went amiss, you
could guarantee to spend half an hour calling their helpline to sort it
out.

Paperless ticketing, if we can call it that, has subsequently blossomed
into scores of different schemes, where you have to be acquainted with
the local foibles. About the only one which "just works" is the twirly
card. Used mine on a shuttle bus in Lincoln on Saturday for the first
time in about three years. I was half expecting them to say "sorry this
is a special service, not accepted" (it was a private operator and at a
lower fare than the regular Stagecoach bus on the same route, but it
worked).

>The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a competent
>person at a station. A simple transaction should take as little as 10 -
>15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it takes that long to
>find the right website, never mind the time taken to find the required
>stations & tickets.
>
>Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one I
>used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a simple
>day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time asking if I
>wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue a ticket.

The ones round here for several years obscured the availability of
"weekend-only super-off-peak" tickets to such an extent that almost
no-one even knew they existed, let alone were offered them as default on
a Saturday morning. The ticket type is CBA "can't be arsed".

>And I am not going to buy another phone just to use to store rail
>tickets, because my current phone battery will not last long enough to
>reliably store tickets for a full day. (I can think of more interesting
>things to buy; the phone currently does as much as I need.)

--
Roland Perry

In message <som1tm$veo$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:13:10 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one
>>>>>I used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>>simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>>asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue a ticket.
>>>>
>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>>physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>>nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>
>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>>couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>
>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>>Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>>and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>
>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>>usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>>they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in
>>to the ticket machine.
>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from
>>Sainsburys.
>
>I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between
>companies that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was
>using to buy the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my statements
>used to mention nectar points, but I could never be bothered to
>investigate further.
>
>(There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)

Proprietary storecards, with all sorts of gimmicky bonuses, were all the
rage at one time.

Guess what - being the early adopter that I am, I had about a dozen. Of
course you needed to carry all of them around with you. Gradually they
all rotted away, and the only ones left nowadays are in effect "dividend
cards". Like the CoOp (of course) and Tesco. Nectar has such a low
dividend it really isn't worth bothering with.

And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely different
organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
--
Roland Perry

In message <solgt3$6v8$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:22:43 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> And I am not going to buy another phone just to use to store rail
>>tickets, because my current phone battery will not last long enough to
>>reliably store tickets for a full day. (I can think of more
>>interesting things to buy; the phone currently does as much as I need.)

>
>Another one who lives in the past, it was sometime in the 1990s that I
>last had a phone that wouldn't last the day.

You can't have been an early adopter of 3G then, remaining stuck in the
past with 2G.

The first generation of 3G phones had batteries that lasted less than a
day - it was one of the main reasons the new service was slow to take
off.
--
Roland Perry

In message <43bvqgh90s24e2ibhe9hvp89gmetsdpt84@4ax.com>, at 18:52:05 on
Tue, 7 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:

>>>> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>>>> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>>>> discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>>>
>>> The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
>>> you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
>>> save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
>>> you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
>>> trying to rip you off.
>>
>>As I don't use Sainsburys, it is hardly surprising that I knew nothing
>>about Nectar points
>>
>You seem to be describing Tesco who issue two types of voucher :-

>1.Money off, in proportion to the accumulated points.

ie a dividend you can spend in-store.

>2.Money off, not obviously related to points and valid for limited
>periods for purchases over a certain amount.
>The second type seems to have arrived more often in recent times.

Very prevalent this time of year, giving an extra discount if you spend
more than $foo in one visit. These are clearly intended to nudge people
back to last-century "weekly shop" habits, rather than top-up shopping
at multiple stores.

They don't have a loyalty scheme but I do most of my shopping at Aldi,
and only go across the street to Sainsbury to top-up the things Aldi
didn't have.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/12/2021 06:40, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <solh2d$6v8$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:25:33 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 06/12/2021 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sokojc$g5b$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:56 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sogl50$sb9$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:04:32 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>>>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it
>>>>>>>>>> causes  you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have
>>>>>>>>> routine  e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need
>>>>>>>>> to forward them  either to my desktop (which is my preferred
>>>>>>>>> audit trail for this  kind of  thing, and also the appliance
>>>>>>>>> with  a printer, which my phone isn't) or  to the person who I
>>>>>>>>> bought  the ticket for (which is at least half  of my  purchases).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my
>>>>>>>>> desktop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well you’d better get used to it or stop travelling by train.
>>>>>>>> The  direction  of all ticketing is heading away from ticket
>>>>>>>> offices  and ticket  machines,  and especially the use of cash.
>>>>>>>> It will be  salami slices, with a few  wrong  turns along the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is why I buy my ticket from the staffed ticket office at my
>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>> station.
>>>
>>>>>  Lucky you. And what if the ticket office has a notice in the
>>>>> window  saying "I'm on my break, back in half an hour" - which is a
>>>>> favourite  at  Ely? Unless there's another saying "due to staff
>>>>> shortages,  closed today".
>>>
>>>>>  That's the point when lots of people reluctantly start using the
>>>>> ticket  machines, which promptly gets a ten minute queue, and then
>>>>> runs out of  blanks, and the downward spiral begins.
>>>>
>>>> Guildford station has two entrances, the main one with a staffed
>>>> ticket office on the down (town) side, and another on the up side
>>>> that  only has a couple of ticket machines. This one is the one that
>>>> is  heavily used by students from the university as the bus stops
>>>> right  outside. Most of whom will be buying individual tickets for
>>>> one-off  journeys. I've never known it to run out of ticket blanks
>>>> and I  suspect far more people use it than the one at Ely.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like another hypothetical "can't work in East Anglia" problem.
>>>  Perhaps they have a more consistent demand for tickets from
>>> machines,  and therefore aren't caught on the hop when there's a
>>> surge due to  unscheduled ticket office closures.
>>
>> Tends to get busier at the end of the week with students going away
>> for the weekend.
>>
>>>  I discussed this with the staff the second or third time it
>>> happened,  and they said that someone would need to come out
>>> specially from  Cambridge to refill the machine. If *only* it had a
>>> 3tph train service!!
>>
>> Must ask the guys at Guildford how often they refill the machines.
>
> Also if they can do it themselves, or is it necessary to summon a person
> from say Southampton to do it.

Why Southampton? It's not en on the same line.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely different
> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.

Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely different
>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>
>Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.

It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.

On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely different
>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>
>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>
> It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>

Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
"coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th Century, but
a further separation in more recent years.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 12:30:06 +0000, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely different
>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>
>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>
>> It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>
>
>Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
>"coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th Century, but
>a further separation in more recent years.
>

Yes, I wasn't aware of that separation. I knew there were (are?) regional Co-Ops, but didn't know they strayed into each
other's territory.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <son784$mkp$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:10 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
> Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>> 2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>> used yet.
>>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>
>>>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>>>> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>>>> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>
>>>> I have never encountered an email client that does not, by default,
>>>> sort by time/date with newest on top.
>
>>> You need to get out more, and also realise that email users
>>> sometimes don't use the default settings.
>>
>> Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
>> choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
>> because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
>> problem would not present itself.
>
> My email configuration is the one which works best for 99.9% of the
> emails I receive.

But clearly not the one that would work for 99.9% of the population have,
for whom tickets are rather more than 0.1% of the emails they receive.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

On 08/12/2021 06:56, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sooce3$vjs$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:24:51 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 07/12/2021 19:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <solpeo$47p$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:48:40 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 18:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soko64$ccm$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:52 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4
>>>>>>> Dec  2021,  nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>>>> used  yet.  Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found
>>>>>>>> there on phone,  tablet or computer, even if several days old.
>
>>>>>>>  How well does that work when you are stood in the station car
>>>>>>> park,  having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the
>>>>>>> ticket  machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>>>>>>  That's the use-case which started this thread.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are
>>>>>>>> something  like "your tickets".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email
>>>>>> address  they can access from the phone in their hand. Problem
>>>>>> solved.
>
>>>>>  Only if they've previously set up a special account on that site
>>>>> under  that address. Otherwise it takes too long. And why should
>>>>> people have to  bend over backwards for train ticket vendors, when
>>>>> there are thousands  of other ecommerce services which don't put
>>>>> the same hurdles in the way  of prospective customers?
>>>>
>>>> You order stuff from Amazon you have to set up an account with email
>>>> address and credit card details, same with most e-commerce sites.
>>>> What  is different about doing it with a railway company, apart, of
>>>> course,  it would then deprive you of the opportunity to have one of
>>>> your  ludicrous rants about how the railways are deliberately
>>>> picking on you?
>
>>>  Yes, but it doesn't have to be a special Amazon-only email address.
>>> Because the Amazon delivery driver doesn't insist I show them a pdf
>>> order acknowledgement on my phone before handing over the package.
>>>
>>>> Anybody who makes a habit of travelling on trains will have such
>>>> details already set up.
>
>>>  Ah! You've finally got the memo. Most people don't have a habit of
>>> travelling on trains. Unless they are a commuter with a season
>>> ticket, when this entire discussion is moot.
>>
>> But you do and are still, apparently, unable to cope with the basics.
>
> My point is that "the Basics" should not include being compelled to set
> up special email accounts and to carry a smartphone, and buy tickets in
> a rush in the rain stood in the station car park, just to avoid a £100
> fine if the TOC can't be bothered to keep their ticket machines working.
>
> Or can't be bothered to implement a system of e-ticketing that's not as
> cumbersome as emailing PDFs.
>
> I have tried (both in the flesh, and as mystery purchases) every
> conceivable combination of e-ticketing and m-ticketing and
> smart-ticketing. After all, I have over a dozen ITSO cards, over thirty
> ticketing apps on my phone, which also has NFC[1] for some of the more
> hi-tech use-cases.
>
> To suggest I "can't cope" is patently absurd.
>
> However, I do perceive significant downsides to many aspects of
> ticketing, which you and others appear oblivious to. Sadly, many people
> who ask for my help with ticketing are firmly in the "travel a handful
> of times a year, and the whole thing is a black art to them".
>
> I've recently persuaded one of them to get a railcard on an app (rather
> than a bit of plastic), but they aren't at all convinced. No doubt
> that's another example of how travelling with a phone with a flat
> battery might incur a £100 fine.
>
> [1] Later this week I'll be trying my phone as a virtual Amex card, to
>     see if the TOC has figured out yet whether this is something they
>     expect the contactless pad on the TVM to accept. They've had two
>     years since I last tried, Covid having got in the way.

Are there any cases of a penalty fare being successfully extracted, or
even demanded, when there was no way to buy a ticket without carrying a
smartphone? If not then just buy a paper ticket, or travel without one
if that is impossible.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <son784$mkp$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:10 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>> Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>> 2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>>> used yet.
>>>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>>
>>>>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>>>>> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>>>>> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>
>>>>> I have never encountered an email client that does not, by default,
>>>>> sort by time/date with newest on top.
>>
>>>> You need to get out more, and also realise that email users
>>>> sometimes don't use the default settings.
>>>
>>> Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
>>> choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
>>> because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
>>> problem would not present itself.
>>
>> My email configuration is the one which works best for 99.9% of the
>> emails I receive.
>
> But clearly not the one that would work for 99.9% of the population have,
> for whom tickets are rather more than 0.1% of the emails they receive.

s/ have//

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely different
>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>
>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>
> It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.

Ironic, isn’t it?

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>
>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>
>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>> they've worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>> it's that layer (not the transport) which has the operational issues.
>>
>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>
> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject dropped up
> [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly rated. But MRD
> applies I suppose.
>
> Which one would you suggest instead?

Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)

On 08/12/2021 14:02, Certes wrote:
> On 08/12/2021 06:56, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sooce3$vjs$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:24:51 on Tue, 7 Dec
>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 07/12/2021 19:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <solpeo$47p$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:48:40 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 18:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soko64$ccm$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:52 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4
>>>>>>>> Dec  2021,  nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>>>>> used  yet.  Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily
>>>>>>>>> found there on phone,  tablet or computer, even if several days
>>>>>>>>> old.
>>
>>>>>>>>  How well does that work when you are stood in the station car
>>>>>>>> park,  having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because
>>>>>>>> the ticket  machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>>>>>>>  That's the use-case which started this thread.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are
>>>>>>>>> something  like "your tickets".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email
>>>>>>> address  they can access from the phone in their hand. Problem
>>>>>>> solved.
>>
>>>>>>  Only if they've previously set up a special account on that site
>>>>>> under  that address. Otherwise it takes too long. And why should
>>>>>> people have to  bend over backwards for train ticket vendors, when
>>>>>> there are thousands  of other ecommerce services which don't put
>>>>>> the same hurdles in the way  of prospective customers?
>>>>>
>>>>> You order stuff from Amazon you have to set up an account with
>>>>> email address and credit card details, same with most e-commerce
>>>>> sites. What  is different about doing it with a railway company,
>>>>> apart, of course,  it would then deprive you of the opportunity to
>>>>> have one of your  ludicrous rants about how the railways are
>>>>> deliberately picking on you?
>>
>>>>  Yes, but it doesn't have to be a special Amazon-only email address.
>>>> Because the Amazon delivery driver doesn't insist I show them a pdf
>>>> order acknowledgement on my phone before handing over the package.
>>>>
>>>>> Anybody who makes a habit of travelling on trains will have such
>>>>> details already set up.
>>
>>>>  Ah! You've finally got the memo. Most people don't have a habit of
>>>> travelling on trains. Unless they are a commuter with a season
>>>> ticket, when this entire discussion is moot.
>>>
>>> But you do and are still, apparently, unable to cope with the basics.
>>
>> My point is that "the Basics" should not include being compelled to
>> set up special email accounts and to carry a smartphone, and buy
>> tickets in a rush in the rain stood in the station car park, just to
>> avoid a £100 fine if the TOC can't be bothered to keep their ticket
>> machines working.
>>
>> Or can't be bothered to implement a system of e-ticketing that's not
>> as cumbersome as emailing PDFs.
>>
>> I have tried (both in the flesh, and as mystery purchases) every
>> conceivable combination of e-ticketing and m-ticketing and
>> smart-ticketing. After all, I have over a dozen ITSO cards, over
>> thirty ticketing apps on my phone, which also has NFC[1] for some of
>> the more hi-tech use-cases.
>>
>> To suggest I "can't cope" is patently absurd.
>>
>> However, I do perceive significant downsides to many aspects of
>> ticketing, which you and others appear oblivious to. Sadly, many
>> people who ask for my help with ticketing are firmly in the "travel a
>> handful of times a year, and the whole thing is a black art to them".
>>
>> I've recently persuaded one of them to get a railcard on an app
>> (rather than a bit of plastic), but they aren't at all convinced. No
>> doubt that's another example of how travelling with a phone with a
>> flat battery might incur a £100 fine.
>>
>> [1] Later this week I'll be trying my phone as a virtual Amex card, to
>>      see if the TOC has figured out yet whether this is something they
>>      expect the contactless pad on the TVM to accept. They've had two
>>      years since I last tried, Covid having got in the way.
>
> Are there any cases of a penalty fare being successfully extracted, or
> even demanded, when there was no way to buy a ticket without carrying a
> smartphone?  If not then just buy a paper ticket, or travel without one
> if that is impossible.

Certainly a case on National Express coaches not so long ago. The girl
concerned claimed her battery had gone flat during the journey!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>
>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>
>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>> they've worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>> it's that layer (not the transport) which has the operational issues.
>>>
>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>
>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject dropped up
>> [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly rated. But MRD
>> applies I suppose.
>>
>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>
> Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>

Have something that just works? Perish the thought.

--
Graeme Wall
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