Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08 on
> Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>> nonsense installed.
>>
>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>
> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer bond
> stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
> credential that they relate to you.
>
No it’s not an m-ticket. Delivering a QR code that points to the central
database is still an e-ticket, even if it is delivered via WhatsApp.
M-tickets, which are on their way out, are where there is no central
database. The ticket has to be delivered within a bespoke app to prevent
that ticket from being copied, tampered with etc as there is no independent
method of checking its validity.

In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>
>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>
>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>
>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>
>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>> unsuitable.
>>
>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>
>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>
>Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>viewing pdfs?

What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
person unwilling to sign-in-to.

I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.
--
Roland Perry

In message <5r86rgdf6lc0ejsson8ldo750b36kfr02s@4ax.com>, at 10:00:42 on
Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>>>buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>>multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>>
>>The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>>common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>
>And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.
>
>If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
>I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
>or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
>change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
>of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
>connection to the one I had been intending.
>
>If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
>accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
>irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
>otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.

Wrong type of interoperability. What you refer to there is the way that
barriers at stations operated by different TOCs might or might not
accept out-of-area tokens (be they PDF-QR codes on phones, ITSO cards,
or in-app ticket manifestations).

While that is *also* an issue, the one I'm trying to highlight here
is the way that EVEN WITHIN THE SAME TOC NETWORK there's often no
consistency between which flows are available as m-tickets, as ITSO
uploads, or merely TVM TOD.
--
Roland Perry

In message <fkg6rg5n2nql0rhoc9kddc6r6f1ejhkm1m@4ax.com>, at 12:13:41 on
Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:17:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I?ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can?t you just
>>>>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>>>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting
>>>>>offspring.
>>>>
>>>> The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>>>> common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>>>
>>> And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.
>>>
>>> If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
>>> I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
>>> or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
>>> change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
>>> of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
>>> connection to the one I had been intending.
>>>
>>> If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
>>> accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
>>> irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
>>> otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.
>>>
>>Having not travelled extensively of late, have we got to the point where
>>apps now present QR codes, and are these now accepted on most TOC trains?
>
>I don't know. A simple QR code would be the most sensible option,
>because that can be delivered by any mechanism and displayed on any
>device

Not much use when my ITSO card hasn't got a screen!

>(and, as a last resort, can be printed, even if you have to
>screenshot it to do so).

I think some TOCs expressly forbid screenshots. As an anti-cloning
measure I think.

>Given the choice between email and an app, I'd choose email because
>that Just Plain Works without me needing to install another app,

But to get a reasonable experience on my phone (and after much
discussion and recommendation here) I've had to install a new email app.

>and having been sent to me it's accessible on any device I own

Only if that's how your email is set up. Most people I know with
smartphones can't (or don't seen able to) access the email they
send/recive on that, at home on a PC.

>(and, having been downloaded once, it's subsequently available offline,
>which is useful if the gripper happens to come round in a mobile
>notspot).
>
>But, as I said elsewhere in this discussion, I'd quite like the option
>to get a ticket via WhatsApp. WhatsApp's push mechanism is more reliable
>than email and, because it won't be competing for my attention with
>potentially hundreds of emails, it will be much easier to spot in my
>message list. And, like email, once I've downloaded the ticket once
>(either a PDF or an image), it will be available offline until I
>explicitly delete it.

What sort of closed group of vendors do you expect to have registered to
your WhatsApp?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>>
>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>
>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>
>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>> unsuitable.
>>>
>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>
>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>
>> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>> viewing pdfs?
>
> What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
> attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
> person unwilling to sign-in-to.
>
> I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.

None of this is convincing me that I’ve overpaid to have an iPhone. I’ve
just double checked with a test - a pdf email attachment opens within the
AppleMail email client, no Adobe tools required. I then have the option of
sending the file elsewhere to preserve it. Apple Books is my favourite
place, as,it archives pdfs in their own area. If it were to be an e-ticket
things would be configured by the sender to allow the ticket to go to my
Apple Wallet.

Obviously I’m only seeing this through the prism of, mainly Roland’s,
second hand reports. However it seems that Android has useability issues.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <fkg6rg5n2nql0rhoc9kddc6r6f1ejhkm1m@4ax.com>, at 12:13:41 on
> Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:17:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I?ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can?t you just
>>>>>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>>>>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting
>>>>>> offspring.
>>>>>
>>>>> The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>>>>> common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>>>>
>>>> And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.
>>>>
>>>> If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
>>>> I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
>>>> or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
>>>> change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
>>>> of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
>>>> connection to the one I had been intending.
>>>>
>>>> If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
>>>> accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
>>>> irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
>>>> otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.
>>>>
>>> Having not travelled extensively of late, have we got to the point where
>>> apps now present QR codes, and are these now accepted on most TOC trains?
>>
>> I don't know. A simple QR code would be the most sensible option,
>> because that can be delivered by any mechanism and displayed on any
>> device
>
> Not much use when my ITSO card hasn't got a screen!
>
>> (and, as a last resort, can be printed, even if you have to
>> screenshot it to do so).
>
> I think some TOCs expressly forbid screenshots. As an anti-cloning
> measure I think.
>
That’s the fundamental difference between m and e-tickets. It doesn’t
matter if you clone an e-ticket. M-tickets are on their way out and were a
technology wrong turn.

In message <soveff$uuq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:39 on Fri, 10 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <soknoi$atl$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:38 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <soer6a$iu7$4@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:22 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>>>>>>> were invented?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
>>>>>> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
>>>>>> expressly for that purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> They still exist in many places, including Paddington,
>>>>
>>>> Even on the Bakerloo Line?
>>>>
>>>>> Reading and Bristol Temple Meads.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose Reading is partly TfL these days.
>>>>
>>>> ps I've actually given up wondering when the Elizabeth Line will open.
>>>
>>> Obviously, the Reading part is already open. The central London section is
>>> currently expected to open next spring, but through services from the west
>>> will be later.
>>>
>>> I think it's physically complete, with the software almost ready, and now
>>> it's a case of rehearsing lots of operational scenarios (ie, dealing with
>>> various different problems, faults, evacuations, etc) and bedding down the
>>> trial operations. Some of the NR stations are still incomplete, but that
>>> won't delay the opening.
>>>
>>> Latest update: https://youtu.be/WXZ2BEthYEc
>>
>> I made a special effort to be on the first [public] Thameslink train
>> through the core. They were handing out commemorate cup-cakes, although
>> something less perishable might have been welcome.
>>
>> If there's an equivalent train through the Crossrail Core, I'll probably
>> try to be there. But it's far less clear if that milestone should be
>> Paddington-Abbey_Wood, or a service that's through from further west.
>
>The latter will be months later than the former, so will probably attract
>much less razzamataz.
>
>But be warned that the first public train might be very early in the
>morning, as with the Battersea extension. There may be a VIP-only official
>opening train the previous day, possibly with HM in the cab. Perhaps that
>train will do what the initial public trains don't, and run through from
>west to east.

The first *public* train is what counts (if it's early in the morning so
be it, but that wasn't what happened at Thameslink and it was
mid-morning).

What might scupper it (depending on one's definitions) is a soft-launch
a day or two early, although of course the opposite is true of the Soham
Station re-opening, where the first day of "operation" [tomorrow] will
been bustituted!

And of course if Brenda is going to drive an inaugural train, to be
followed later by the first truly public one, she's hardly likely to
want to do that at 5am!
--
Roland Perry

On 11/12/2021 07:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>> phone?
>>>>
>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them
>>>> when
>>>> I do need to.
>>>>
>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>> compromise
>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>> deliver
>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways
>>>>> to do
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>
>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>> PDFs work everywhere.
>
> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
> with your Facebook password". No thanks.

It's not a demand, it's an option. Stop using apocalyptic language and
read what is actually written and you might find life gets a lot simpler.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08 on
> Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>> need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can
>>>>> wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them
>>>>> when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>> compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>>> deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways
>>>>>> to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>> nonsense installed.
>>
>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>
> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer bond
> stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
> credential that they relate to you.
>

Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 19:51:38 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>> nonsense installed.
>
>Well, until you give in to the entreaties to install Adobe Acrobat Reader
>DC or whatever it’s called, which keeps trying to log you into Adobe’s
>systems every time it opens. I deleted it. No, I can’t fill in PDF forms
>any more. I don’t care.

And I'm not interested in installing some Billy No Mates data trawling garbage
from facebook.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>nonsense installed.
>
>WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>
>The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.

Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
info? No.
Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.

Feck that.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 07:43:27 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>>Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>>PDFs work everywhere.
>
>Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>with your Facebook password". No thanks.

You are aware of who owns whatsapp arn't you? And last time I looked it didn't
work without an account set up.

>I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.

Maybe in your social circle.

>But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>unsuitable.

Quite. Paper tickets are universal, just work and should always be an option.

On 11/12/2021 07:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email
>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>> phone?
>>>>
>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them
>>>> when
>>>> I do need to.
>>>>
>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>> compromise
>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to
>>>>> deliver
>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways
>>>>> to do
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>
>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>> PDFs work everywhere.
>
> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>
>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>
> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>
> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
> unsuitable.
>
> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>
> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.

Have you looked at the TfW app and website? They're well integrated.

The website seems to give m-ticket, collect from ticket machines, and
PDF tickets.

Here are the penalty fare regulations:-
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

I note that "if there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a
travel ticket for that passenger’s journey" then the regulations don't
apply.

The regulations also seem to prevent a penalty charge if you have the
means to pay but are unable to use that method. This seems to me that
if you have a card but there is only a cash only machine or have cash
but it is a card only machine then you are entitled to obtain your
ticket on the train or at your destination.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>>>
>>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>>
>>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>>
>>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>>> unsuitable.
>>>>
>>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>>
>>> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>>> viewing pdfs?
>>
>> What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
>> attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
>> person unwilling to sign-in-to.
>>
>> I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.
>
> None of this is convincing me that I’ve overpaid to have an iPhone. I’ve
> just double checked with a test - a pdf email attachment opens within the
> AppleMail email client, no Adobe tools required. I then have the option of
> sending the file elsewhere to preserve it. Apple Books is my favourite
> place, as,it archives pdfs in their own area. If it were to be an e-ticket
> things would be configured by the sender to allow the ticket to go to my
> Apple Wallet.
>
> Obviously I’m only seeing this through the prism of, mainly Roland’s,
> second hand reports. However it seems that Android has useability issues.
>
>

No, not normal Android phones, whose ysers can vuew PDFs perfectly well
without any Adobe software or any need to log into any service. Just the
'special', second-hand ones Roland uses.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soveff$uuq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:39 on Fri, 10 Dec
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <soknoi$atl$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:38 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <soer6a$iu7$4@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:22 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>>>>>>>> were invented?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
>>>>>>> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
>>>>>>> expressly for that purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They still exist in many places, including Paddington,
>>>>>
>>>>> Even on the Bakerloo Line?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Reading and Bristol Temple Meads.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose Reading is partly TfL these days.
>>>>>
>>>>> ps I've actually given up wondering when the Elizabeth Line will open.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, the Reading part is already open. The central London section is
>>>> currently expected to open next spring, but through services from the west
>>>> will be later.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's physically complete, with the software almost ready, and now
>>>> it's a case of rehearsing lots of operational scenarios (ie, dealing with
>>>> various different problems, faults, evacuations, etc) and bedding down the
>>>> trial operations. Some of the NR stations are still incomplete, but that
>>>> won't delay the opening.
>>>>
>>>> Latest update: https://youtu.be/WXZ2BEthYEc
>>>
>>> I made a special effort to be on the first [public] Thameslink train
>>> through the core. They were handing out commemorate cup-cakes, although
>>> something less perishable might have been welcome.
>>>
>>> If there's an equivalent train through the Crossrail Core, I'll probably
>>> try to be there. But it's far less clear if that milestone should be
>>> Paddington-Abbey_Wood, or a service that's through from further west.
>>
>> The latter will be months later than the former, so will probably attract
>> much less razzamataz.
>>
>> But be warned that the first public train might be very early in the
>> morning, as with the Battersea extension. There may be a VIP-only official
>> opening train the previous day, possibly with HM in the cab. Perhaps that
>> train will do what the initial public trains don't, and run through from
>> west to east.
>
> The first *public* train is what counts (if it's early in the morning so
> be it, but that wasn't what happened at Thameslink and it was
> mid-morning).

Yes, that was unusual. Remember, I was on the same train, which I wouldn't
have been at 5am.

>
> What might scupper it (depending on one's definitions) is a soft-launch
> a day or two early, although of course the opposite is true of the Soham
> Station re-opening, where the first day of "operation" [tomorrow] will
> been bustituted!
>
> And of course if Brenda is going to drive an inaugural train, to be
> followed later by the first truly public one, she's hardly likely to
> want to do that at 5am!

It'll be on the previous day. Ideally, she'd travel from home to the office
non-stop (Slough to Bond Street), with no publc access to the platforms
used. But, more likely, she'll be on board for a much shorter journey, in
the central section.

On 11/12/2021 08:02, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>
>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>
>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>
>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>
>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>> unsuitable.
>>
>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>
>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>
> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
> viewing pdfs?
>
It depends on how the manufacturer decided to configure it. I've just
tried mine and the default settings do not allow me to save the PDF file
so I've no idea. (I call that good.)

In message <sp1v69$r5q$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:40:09 on Sat, 11 Dec
2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 19:51:38 -0000 (UTC)
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>
>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>> nonsense installed.
>>
>>Well, until you give in to the entreaties to install Adobe Acrobat Reader
>>DC or whatever it’s called, which keeps trying to log you into Adobe’s
>>systems every time it opens. I deleted it. No, I can’t fill in PDF forms
>>any more. I don’t care.
>
>And I'm not interested in installing some Billy No Mates data trawling garbage
>from facebook.

In which case you'll be blissfully ignorant (now there's a first, NOT)
that the people you communicate with on WhatsApp are *only* your mates.

That's what makes it such a useful app (no outsiders, spammers etc).
--
Roland Perry

On 10/12/2021 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic.
>>> You
>>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.
>>
>> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer
>> why I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies
>> fining me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?
>
> I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
> their TVMs are broken.

I have seen them *not* fine people when the ticket machines are broken.
A while back the London smart card system fell over for a while, and
they were letting people travel free (this is not umcommon on London
buses, where paying pax have to use the smart card or contactless
system). After all, ticket revenue is not a train operator's problem now...

--
Arthur Figgis

On 10/12/2021 19:51, Sam Wilson wrote:

> Well, until you give in to the entreaties to install Adobe Acrobat Reader
> DC or whatever it’s called, which keeps trying to log you into Adobe’s
> systems every time it opens. I deleted it. No, I can’t fill in PDF forms
> any more. I don’t care.

We have the full-fat bells-and-whistles versions at work, and its
surprising how often some random Adobe thing decides to ask for an email
address or password - and then sulks for the whole company because
someone used the wrong one and so everyone has to enter a different one
instead.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 11/12/2021 08:02, Tweed wrote:

> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
> viewing pdfs?

Things seem to get into fights about what should be used to do so, and
as ever with Android there is no clear "JFDI" option.

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <sp1n4t$46e$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:22:53 on Sat, 11 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08 on
>> Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>
>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer bond
>> stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>> credential that they relate to you.
>>
>No it’s not an m-ticket. Delivering a QR code that points to the central
>database is still an e-ticket,

If in fact it *is* acting as such a pointer, rather than a bearer bond.
It's got vastly more data in it than necessary for an e-ticket, where
almost all the data is centrally held rather than encoded into the
ticket.

>even if it is delivered via WhatsApp. M-tickets, which are on their way
>out, are where there is no central database. The ticket has to be
>delivered within a bespoke app to prevent that ticket from being
>copied, tampered with etc as there is no independent method of checking
>its validity.

There are several variants, but you are correct that "validity", in the
sense of anti-cloning, rather than being genuine (which can be assured
by crypto-signing it) is something which worries the train companies.

As a rule of thumb, any ticket that needs "activating", as a separate
activity to buy or using it, is highly likely to be a bearer-bond
m-ticket than an e-ticket needing multiple online checks en-route.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 08:17:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>>> I do need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere.
>>>
>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>
>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>
>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>> unsuitable.
>>>
>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>
>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>
>>Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>>viewing pdfs?
>
>What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
>attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
>person unwilling to sign-in-to.
>
>I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.

My Android doesn't have Adobe Reader installed, so far as I know, and
I've never heard of their Reader on ay platform demanding that you
sign in.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 08:48:53 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp1lu8$ejb$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:16 on Sat, 11 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
>>>> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
>>>> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>>>>
>>>>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>>>>
>>>> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
>>>> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
>>>> unsuitable.
>>>>
>>>> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
>>>> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
>>>
>>> Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
>>> viewing pdfs?
>>
>> What I'm saying is that the email app, when asked to display a PDF
>> attachment, launches Adobe viewer, which it appears I'm not the only
>> person unwilling to sign-in-to.
>>
>> I can't see a "setting" in the email app to launch a browser instead.
>
>None of this is convincing me that I’ve overpaid to have an iPhone. I’ve
>just double checked with a test - a pdf email attachment opens within the
>AppleMail email client, no Adobe tools required. I then have the option of
>sending the file elsewhere to preserve it. Apple Books is my favourite
>place, as,it archives pdfs in their own area. If it were to be an e-ticket
>things would be configured by the sender to allow the ticket to go to my
>Apple Wallet.
>
>Obviously I’m only seeing this through the prism of, mainly Roland’s,
>second hand reports. However it seems that Android has useability issues.

The problem is the prism.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:44:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sov3pl$lb5$3@dont-email.me>, at 08:40:21 on Fri, 10 Dec
>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ukp4rg9vb6s0teemqs6966pemgmr9i07ub@4ax.com>, at 20:38:24
>>>on Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>>
>>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>
>>> The different apps are required because they have different features
>>>(some of which are locked into the specific operator - although
>>>recently I've seen some chinks of interoperability between different
>>>Abellio franchises).
>
>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>>as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
>>>ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>
>So they can see which of those suppliers leaked the address to spammers.

Why not just set up a Gmail account and use plus adressing, supported
by Gmail, M365 and some other providers? Then you have just one email
address but can distinguish their purpose by the part you provided
after the + sign when you registered or transacted with them.

So, if you set up rperrytickets@gmail.com then the email adddress that
you provide to the TOCs is rperrytickets+ga@gmail,com,
rperrytickets+gtr@gmail.com, rperrytickets.+xc@gmail.com and so on.
>
>Also, it helps filter emails into folders, although I tend to do that by
>using the sender address rather than additional email addresses.
>
>But when I wanted all my delay-repay claims (from three TOCs to begin
>with) automatically sorted into one folder, I did create new email
>addresses for them. Not least because they send the replies from a
>generic address, not one specifically associated with delay-repay
>claims.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:14:46 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <3o26rgldmt59ln4p41vh2soqfl90tg66k2@4ax.com>, at 08:11:29 on
>Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:11:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <57rrqgp2qelb6cfe8sjj3otebr3aeikhen@4ax.com>, at 11:00:46 on
>>>Mon, 6 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>>>>>>very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>>>>>>convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>>>>>>change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>>>>>well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>>>>>inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>>>>>specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>>>>>>through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>>>
>>>>>Emailing pdfs is also very clunky - why can't they push the tickets to
>>>>>the booking app, in the same way Google Play pushes new apps to your
>>>>>phone?
>>>>
>>>>As I have said at least twice this is exactly what does happen, with
>>>>GA at least. Buy a ticket from the app or on the web and they just
>>>>appear in the app ready for use.
>>>
>>>I'll give it another go when I have some time. But I can absolutely
>>>assure you that the other day when I tried this, the options the GA
>>>website gave for a selection of mystery purchases did not all include a
>>>pdf option, let alone a deliver-to-app version.
>>>
>>>As far as I could see they were also significantly averse to e-ticketing
>>>south of Tottenham Hale. Is that some issue with the barriers at
>>>Liverpool St, or some conflict with the Oyster zoning?
>>>
>>>Perhaps you could name a station pair where you know it to work (I'm not
>>>claiming it's never available, but GA's ticketing is very inconsistent,
>>>hence probably why there's been three different and incompatible lists
>>>at large as to what to expect to work, or not).
>>
>>It worked for Bishop's Stortford to Liverpool St. just fine.
>
>I'll see what the website offers. But...
>
>>Note that in my earlier replies I never claimed you were offered the
>>option to have an mTicket. Just that if you select pdf you seem to get
>>a single ticket than can be used as a pdf (e.g. printed) and also
>>apears in 'My Tickets' on the GA app.
>
>...I wonder why they don't tell customers that might happen?
>
>That's a bit of a big mystery purchase to make, but I might have a poke
>around to see what cheaper fares there are. Mountfitchet to BS perhaps
>(I can get that down to £1.30 with a fictional Student Discount).

That works. I bought one the other day (in the reverse direction) when
traffic in Stortford meant that my lift would be from Mountfitchet but
my rail ticket only went to BIS.