In message <sq4fm6$c89$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:14 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>>>>> On my local Facebook group today there's someone who has lost their
>>>>>> iPhone at the station, or on the train (they don't know which, but it
>>>>>> could also have been pick-pocketed). Turns out they can't locate it or
>>>>>> do all the other clever iCloud stuff [which is what people immediately
>>>>>> suggest], because they know the phone's battery was dead before they
>>>>>> misplaced it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is a complete tangent, right?
>>>>
>>>> It shows that people with phones, on trains, don't always have a charged
>>>> battery, even when they knew that before travelling.
>>>
>>> But if they knew the battery was dead they’d also know it couldn’t have
>>> been used to display a valid ticket, so either they were travelling
>>> illegitimately or they had some other form of ticket available, so the
>>> incident is not relevant to the point you’re trying to make.
>>
>> It is related, because if the TVM had been broken, the suggestion here
>> is they should be prepared to buy an e-ticket through an app.
>
>Well, some people think so. I’d just get on the train and explain that
>there was no opportunity purchase a ticket. In the absence of an irate bus
>driver to tell me to go home and buy a ticket there I think that’s entirely
>reasonable. So far we don’t have any hard evidence that the TOC would
>disagree.

There's two aspects to this:

Firstly, the average passenger faced with hectoring signage probably
doesn't know that, nor have that much confidence in a conflict situation

Secondly, there are plenty of online forums with tales of woe.

Grippers don't have much of a reputation for sympathy. I was on an MML
train once where they reduced a well-dressed 80yr old lady to tears
because she'd done her best and bought an Anytime ticket (when an
off-peak one would have sufficed) but delayed her outbound leg until the
following day because something had cropped up, which until recently
before would have been quite OK [a month I think].

They later widened the outbound window to three days, and I see it's now
five days:

https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LEI&dest=STP&grpd=1072&tkt=SOR
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:22:30 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>
>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>
>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>
>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>
>>That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>toilets.
>
>What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>in the rake pre-refurbishment).

Slam doors was the accessibility issue. Non-retention tank toilets was the other main problem, for other reasons.

That's why the retained HSTs have new sliding doors and retention tank toilets.

In message <sq1lfj$rd3$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:43 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spvmkk$kpf$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:18:12 on Wed, 22 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>> Perhaps you could suggest a better email client than Spark, which was
>>>> the one that came out on top last groundhog day.
>>>>
>>>> It does "work", of course, but struggles with more than ten folders, or
>>>> ten emails, on the screen at once.
>>>
>>> I’ve never used Spark. At the moment I’m using a FastMail
>>>account accessed by IMAP from Apple Mail on the desktop and the
>>>FastMail app on Android and iPod.
>>
>> Gets good reviews, but:
>>
>> Note: You must be either a paid subscriber or have verified your
>> trial Fastmail account to use this app.
>
>Yes, it’s not a generalised mail client, but it does work very well.
>
>> I'm trying to reduce the amount of outsourcing I do, rather than
>> increase it. Although if I get wet weekend in the New Year, I might
>> try migrating one of my domains to it, I presume they take over the
>> hosting, MX administration, etc.
>
>You’ll have to check the options available at the various service levels
>they offer. I pay for extra storage and given your volumes you might too.
>Having used the free service I decided the relatively modest payment was
>worth it.

One of the things about running my own mail servers (in the past) was
having no pesky limits on storage, or size of individual emails. And for
several years avoided the typical hour-long delays that ISP servers took
to get around to processing my emails in the queue.

Nowadays outsourced servers are better (although recently I've noticed
times when gmail has taken up to ten minutes to send an email) and none
of the ones I use have crippling limits on the size of storage.

Although I'm keeping an eye on one of the two gmail accounts I use the
most, and it's almost half-filled the 15GB. My local client has a limit
of 4GB, and it was helpful when they increased it to that from 2GB (I
think these were MSDOS limits, not in the application software).
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq1me1$1a3$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:57 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
>> of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
>> (and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
>> Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
>> is how many developers test their products).
>
>I'd rather receive emailed PDFs than have to have a unique app installed
>for every vendor.

I wonder what happened to the "pass" system (as implemented on the
PassWallet, and other, apps). That at least gathers all the e-tickets in
one place, whereas I don't regard "scattered through my email spool" as
'one place'.

>They can be viewed on any device, archived, printed or forwarded.

But only very clumsily on a phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq1me1$1a3$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:57 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> Not a single person other than Roland has suggested using a phone to read
>>> or edit long documents. Specifically Recliner hasn’t suggested this.
>>
>> What has been suggested, however, is that a phone is adequate for any
>> online IT task,
>
>Absolutely no-one has suggested that.

You need to pay better attention.

>But it's suitable for more online IT tasks than you think.

I use my phone for a very wide variety of online tasks, when it's suited
to it.

BBC News for example is just as good on my phone as my laptop, and
WhatsApp better than my laptop.

And while I was using my laptop as a satnav (with external GPS receiver)
back in 2000, it's far more useful to have my phone doing that task in
the car, than a laptop, nowadays.

While my laptop does have a camera, I find it easier to take and post a
photo to Facebook using a phone. Although the photo-editing available is
crude by comparison.

My laptop doesn't have NFC (although I have considered adding an
external reader) so if I want to read Smartcard data, that's another
task for the phone.

But I don't find the phone to be better at handling email attachments
(pdf, or otherwise).

--
Roland Perry

In message <sq46th$mj0$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:33 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq2bim$a4s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:50 on Thu, 23 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
>>>> Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a
>>>>>>> document, but
>>>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or
>>>>>>>large tablet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>>>
>>>> It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
>>>> scenario I was attempting to discuss.
>>>
>>> I'm sure in the past you've claimed that in-app tickets are too difficult
>>> because you have to remember which TOC you purchased the ticket from, thus
>>> which app it will be contained within?
>>
>> Yes, that's an issue for *me*, but I expect the average passenger only
>> has one or two apps to choose from.
>>
>> They are not as adventurous as some of us, investigating whether it's
>> possible to buy e-tickets for the Fen Line off TfW, when that option is
>> missing from the GA/GN apps.
>>
>>>> In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
>>>> advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
>>>> that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
>>>> no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.
>>>
>>> For the vast majority of mobile phone users, receiving, storing and viewing
>>> a PDF requires *absolutely nothing* to be "set up in advance".
>>
>> They need to set up the account with the TOC
>
>Same for in-app tickets, so it's not an extra for receiving PDFs.

Sure, but in-app tickets arrive in the expected place on the phone
without having to fiddle with email routing/filtering.

>> to point at the email
>> address they collect on the phone, as well as installing a PDF viewer
>> (which isn't built into Android, does it come baked into iOS?)
>
>Yup, already present and configured in iOS. As it was on my work Android
>devices, so I assumed it was on all Android things, but perhaps that was
>actually part of the company phone set up before it was issued to me.

--
Roland Perry

In message <sq49to$86b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:52 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sq2bim$a4s$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:50 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <gp37sg10p9hts2r1edq6grg951p40jqomp@4ax.com>, at 20:51:11 on
>>>>> Wed, 22 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:10:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <spvnvo$vi4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:13 on Wed, 22 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your one-size-fits-all jibe is a straw man, Roland. Most people would
>>>>>>>> agree that a phone is not a suitable technology for editing a
>>>>>>>> document, but
>>>>>>>> if they needed to do that they’d use a desktop, laptop or
>>>>>>>>tablet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that case you need to talk to recliner, who thinks I alone have
>>>>>>> problems with technology, specifically using phones (for things that
>>>>>>> maybe we are coming to the conclusion that almost everyone but him
>>>>>>> thinks they are unsuitable for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that a phone is a suitable device for a lot of the work I
>>>>>> do, including editing documents, writing code and engaging in a detailed
>>>>>> email conversation. But it is perfectly suitable as a means of receiving
>>>>>> and displaying an emailed PDF which acts as an e-ticket. And that's the
>>>>>> scenario under discussion here.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's even more suitable for displaying an in-app ticket, which was the
>>>>> scenario I was attempting to discuss.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure in the past you've claimed that in-app tickets are too difficult
>>>> because you have to remember which TOC you purchased the ticket from, thus
>>>> which app it will be contained within?
>>>
>>> Yes, that's an issue for *me*, but I expect the average passenger only
>>> has one or two apps to choose from.
>>>
>>> They are not as adventurous as some of us, investigating whether it's
>>> possible to buy e-tickets for the Fen Line off TfW, when that option is
>>> missing from the GA/GN apps.
>>>
>>>>> In any event, to display a pdf ticket requires things to be set up in
>>>>> advance, and while that's possible, not every member of the public is
>>>>> that much of a power-user to have achieved it, especially when they have
>>>>> no expectation of ever needing to buy mobile tickets.
>>>>
>>>> For the vast majority of mobile phone users, receiving, storing and viewing
>>>> a PDF requires *absolutely nothing* to be "set up in advance".
>>>
>>> They need to set up the account with the TOC
>>
>> Same for in-app tickets, so it's not an extra for receiving PDFs.
>>
>>> to point at the email
>>> address they collect on the phone, as well as installing a PDF viewer
>>> (which isn't built into Android, does it come baked into iOS?)
>>
>> Yup, already present and configured in iOS. As it was on my work Android
>> devices, so I assumed it was on all Android things, but perhaps that was
>> actually part of the company phone set up before it was issued to me.
>
>Yes, bare Android doesn't include a PDF viewer, but quite a few other apps
>can view them plus there are numerous PDF viewers in the app store.
>
>So, almost every Android device will have at least one PDF viewer
>installed. And when you migrate from one phone to the next, the PDF
>viewer(s) will come with you. So it was a problem users had to solve once,
>in the first few days of getting their first phone.

That can't possibly be the case for people whose first Smartphone was
ten years ago. The environment is not so set in stone that nothing new
needs configuring. And app writers in general (transport app writers in
particular) seem to have skipped the lectures at college about backwards
compatibility, so there's a baked-in churn of new apps that need
reconfiguring.

The TfW fiasco this month being but the latest example.

>If they were young, they'd have solved it effortlessly; if Roland's
>age, they'd have had help from someone much younger.

<Yawn> I was doing this stuff when those youngsters were literally still
in their nappies.

And I've also done enough migrations from phone to phone to know that
apps don't always migrate themselves. They have to be re-downloaded from
the Google App Store, which is why my RTT app got marooned on a phone
about three migrations ago (in the mean time having been withdrawn from
the store, which last time I checked applies to up to half the three
hundred apps I've downloaded and tried over the last ten years).

>Roland seems to treat mobile phones as curious lab samples to be probed and
>measured, not essential devices for a modern lifestyle. He doesn't
>configure them as normal users would, and comes unstuck on trivial issues
>that ordinary users wouldn't even notice.

I think part of the problem is that I use them far more intensively than
the average person and hence trip over issues much more often as a
consequence. I'm also less likely to write things off as "shit happens",
and want to explore exactly how and why that particular bit of clothing
is now missing from the emperor's wardrobe.
--
Roland Perry

In message <2pjbsglrab4ft936asdj91gest2aj5j936@4ax.com>, at 13:47:57 on
Fri, 24 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:22:30 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>
>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>
>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>
>>>That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>toilets.
>>
>>What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>
>Slam doors was the accessibility issue. Non-retention tank toilets was
>the other main problem, for other reasons.
>
>That's why the retained HSTs have new sliding doors and retention tank toilets.

But not ones big enough to accommodate a wheelchair user?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <2pjbsglrab4ft936asdj91gest2aj5j936@4ax.com>, at 13:47:57 on
> Fri, 24 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:22:30 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>
>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>
>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>> toilets.
>>>
>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>
>> Slam doors was the accessibility issue. Non-retention tank toilets was
>> the other main problem, for other reasons.
>>
>> That's why the retained HSTs have new sliding doors and retention tank toilets.
>
> But not ones big enough to accommodate a wheelchair user?

They obviously have both accessible and smaller normal toilets, just as
they did before. As I said, that wasn't the problem.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>
>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>
>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>
>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>
>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>> toilets.
>
> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
> in the rake pre-refurbishment).

HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
the current regulations, for at least 20 years.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq1me1$1a3$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:57 on Thu, 23 Dec
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
>>> of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
>>> (and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
>>> Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
>>> is how many developers test their products).
>>
>> I'd rather receive emailed PDFs than have to have a unique app installed
>> for every vendor.
>
> I wonder what happened to the "pass" system (as implemented on the
> PassWallet, and other, apps). That at least gathers all the e-tickets in
> one place, whereas I don't regard "scattered through my email spool" as
> 'one place'.
>

ISTR you complained that extracting them from email to pass wallet was too
much of a chore. And they've been mentioned at least once in this thread.
But it does seem odd that they're not being offered more widely alongside
PDFs.

There are easy ways (at least on iPhone) to gather all your PDFs in one
place, too…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <sq4rlb$mbh$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:14:36 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <2pjbsglrab4ft936asdj91gest2aj5j936@4ax.com>, at 13:47:57 on
>> Fri, 24 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:22:30 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>
>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>> toilets.
>>>>
>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>
>>> Slam doors was the accessibility issue. Non-retention tank toilets was
>>> the other main problem, for other reasons.
>>>
>>> That's why the retained HSTs have new sliding doors and retention
>>>tank toilets.
>>
>> But not ones big enough to accommodate a wheelchair user?
>
>They obviously have both accessible and smaller normal toilets, just as
>they did before. As I said, that wasn't the problem.

See the list I gave Anna, where the attachment includes doors, visual
aspects, and others.

Is the answer to the toilet conundrum that the carriages Scotrail
recycled didn't include any with accessible toilets already installed -
it appears to vary from rake to rake, with many just having one in First
Class, which is perhaps why I'd only encountered the old in-vestibule
ones. Although I did travel in FC with MML (using AP tickets) whenever
the fare was sufficiently cheaper than Standard walk-up.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>
>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>
>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>
>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>> toilets.
>>
>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>
>HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>the current regulations, for at least 20 years.

I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
and it lists the following aspects:

5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet

Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?

But going on...

5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
of toilet control devices.
5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing

Nothing about retention tanks.

<https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq4rlb$mbh$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:14:36 on Fri, 24 Dec
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <2pjbsglrab4ft936asdj91gest2aj5j936@4ax.com>, at 13:47:57 on
>>> Fri, 24 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:22:30 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>
>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>
>>>> Slam doors was the accessibility issue. Non-retention tank toilets was
>>>> the other main problem, for other reasons.
>>>>
>>>> That's why the retained HSTs have new sliding doors and retention
>>>> tank toilets.
>>>
>>> But not ones big enough to accommodate a wheelchair user?
>>
>> They obviously have both accessible and smaller normal toilets, just as
>> they did before. As I said, that wasn't the problem.
>
> See the list I gave Anna, where the attachment includes doors, visual
> aspects, and others.
>
> Is the answer to the toilet conundrum that the carriages Scotrail
> recycled didn't include any with accessible toilets already installed -
> it appears to vary from rake to rake, with many just having one in First
> Class, which is perhaps why I'd only encountered the old in-vestibule
> ones. Although I did travel in FC with MML (using AP tickets) whenever
> the fare was sufficiently cheaper than Standard walk-up.

I don’t recall anything that I’d call an accessible toilet on the HSTs that
ran on the MML, though perhaps some of the ones that were transferred from
the ECML in the last few months of HST service might have been so equipped.

In message <sqc6m8$9ae$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:05:44 on Mon, 27 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq4rlb$mbh$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:14:36 on Fri, 24 Dec
>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <2pjbsglrab4ft936asdj91gest2aj5j936@4ax.com>, at 13:47:57 on
>>>> Fri, 24 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 13:22:30 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT
>>>>>>>>EMUs were given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue
>>>>>>>>in that case being on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>>
>>>>> Slam doors was the accessibility issue. Non-retention tank toilets was
>>>>> the other main problem, for other reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why the retained HSTs have new sliding doors and retention
>>>>> tank toilets.
>>>>
>>>> But not ones big enough to accommodate a wheelchair user?
>>>
>>> They obviously have both accessible and smaller normal toilets, just as
>>> they did before. As I said, that wasn't the problem.
>>
>> See the list I gave Anna, where the attachment includes doors, visual
>> aspects, and others.
>>
>> Is the answer to the toilet conundrum that the carriages Scotrail
>> recycled didn't include any with accessible toilets already installed -
>> it appears to vary from rake to rake, with many just having one in First
>> Class, which is perhaps why I'd only encountered the old in-vestibule
>> ones. Although I did travel in FC with MML (using AP tickets) whenever
>> the fare was sufficiently cheaper than Standard walk-up.
>
>I don’t recall anything that I’d call an accessible toilet on the HSTs that
>ran on the MML, though perhaps some of the ones that were transferred from
>the ECML in the last few months of HST service might have been so equipped.

I've found a source which might be saying that Coach G (the middle one
of First Class) had an accessible toilet from 2012, by which time I was
no longer using the Midland Mainline.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>
>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>
>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>> toilets.
>>>
>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>
>>HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>>the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>
>I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>and it lists the following aspects:
>
>5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>
>Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>
>But going on...
>
>5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
> of toilet control devices.
>5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>
>Nothing about retention tanks.
>
> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>

As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from accessibility.

They're becoming a requirement on all stock running on NR, including charter trains (which make no pretence of meeting
accessibility standards). Fitting them is part of the life-extension programme for all Mk 3 coaches.

On 27/12/2021 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>
>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>
>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>> toilets.
>>>
>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>
>> HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>> the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>
> I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
> and it lists the following aspects:
>
> 5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>
> Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
> were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>
> But going on...
>
> 5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
> 5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
> 5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
> 5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
> of toilet control devices.
> 5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
> 5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
> 5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>
> Nothing about retention tanks.

Retention tanks are not part of disability regulations.
>
> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
> oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
> 2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>

In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>
>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>> toilets.
>>>>
>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>
>>>HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>>>the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>
>>I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>and it lists the following aspects:
>>
>>5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>
>>Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>
>>But going on...
>>
>>5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>> of toilet control devices.
>>5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>
>>Nothing about retention tanks.
>>
>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>
>As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>accessibility.

Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
accessibility list?
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:41:23 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
>Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT EMUs were
>>>>>>> given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue in that case being
>>>>>>> on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>
>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>
>>>>HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>>>>the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>>
>>>I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>>and it lists the following aspects:
>>>
>>>5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>>
>>>Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>>were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>>
>>>But going on...
>>>
>>>5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>>5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>>5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>>5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>>> of toilet control devices.
>>>5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>>5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>>5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>>
>>>Nothing about retention tanks.
>>>
>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>>oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>>2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>>
>>As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>>accessibility.
>
>Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
>accessibility list?

No, it's because you seemed surprised that they weren't.

In message <sq5k6q$90v$2@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:30 on Fri, 24 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq1me1$1a3$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:57 on Thu, 23 Dec
>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
>>>> of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
>>>> (and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
>>>> Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
>>>> is how many developers test their products).
>>>
>>> I'd rather receive emailed PDFs than have to have a unique app installed
>>> for every vendor.
>>
>> I wonder what happened to the "pass" system (as implemented on the
>> PassWallet, and other, apps). That at least gathers all the e-tickets in
>> one place, whereas I don't regard "scattered through my email spool" as
>> 'one place'.
>
>ISTR you complained that extracting them from email to pass wallet was too
>much of a chore.

The chore is having to extract them at all. Why can't they be pushed to
the app? Just like ITSO tickets are pushed to Apps, for local transfer
transfer to a card (which is fairly straightforward).
--
Roland Perry

In message <oq59sg53f0onh5ci556d0o2mm169fn4heh@4ax.com>, at 15:37:05 on
Thu, 23 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:51:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>>But most people seem able to access their email with equal convenience on
>>>either phone or computer.
>>
>>Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>>require editing and sending back?
>
>You can certainly access them, yes. Editing them is a different
>function, which may be harder, or even practically impossible, depending
>on the nature of the document. But an e-ticket doesn't require editing.
>It only requires access.

We really do have to concentrate on this business of accessing emails,
versus accessing the processing the content of email versus the
protocols used to send data from a supplier to a consumer. e-tickets
ordered in-app, should never be in an email in the first place.

Just like when I access my credit card account from an app, they show me
the balances/transactions on the screen - they don't email me a PDF
(*even when* in the past they might well have spent inordinate amounts
of time trying to persuade me to go "paperless" with a PDF emailed to my
desktop).
--
Roland Perry

In message <aqdjsgdh9prtsa9j6tnh1ftpuegvhsk047@4ax.com>, at 12:53:57 on
Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:41:23 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
>>Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT
>>>>>>>>EMUs were given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue
>>>>>>>>in that case being on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>>
>>>>>HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>>>>>the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>>>
>>>>I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>>>and it lists the following aspects:
>>>>
>>>>5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>>>
>>>>Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>>>were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>>>
>>>>But going on...
>>>>
>>>>5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>>>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>>>5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>>>5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>>>5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>>>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>>>> of toilet control devices.
>>>>5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>>>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>>>5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>>>5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>>>
>>>>Nothing about retention tanks.
>>>>
>>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>>>oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>>>2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>>>
>>>As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>>>accessibility.
>>
>>Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
>>accessibility list?
>
>No, it's because you seemed surprised that they weren't.

Is it possible that's why I asked "What was the problem with the HSTs?"
and didn't get much of a reply.

And all we've really established is that at least one HST has "had an
accessible toilet for 20yrs", and no detail about the pace of rollout.
Apart from two lots of anecdata about MML HSTs, which is roughly where I
came in.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sq1lid$roa$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:13 on Thu, 23 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>> require editing and sending back?
>
>For the umpteenth time NOBODY is suggesting this other than you.

There's at least one person who has said they haven't needed a desktop,
or printed anything out, for years.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sq1lid$roa$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:13 on Thu, 23 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>>> require editing and sending back?
>>
>> For the umpteenth time NOBODY is suggesting this other than you.
>
> There's at least one person who has said they haven't needed a desktop,
> or printed anything out, for years.

Perhaps that person has no need to edit 20 page word documents, or perhaps
they have an iPad as well as a phone.

In message <sqcfv9$27g$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:44:09 on Mon, 27 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sq1lid$roa$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:13 on Thu, 23 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>>>> require editing and sending back?
>>>
>>> For the umpteenth time NOBODY is suggesting this other than you.
>>
>> There's at least one person who has said they haven't needed a desktop,
>> or printed anything out, for years.
>
>Perhaps that person has no need to edit 20 page word documents, or perhaps
>they have an iPad as well as a phone.

Indeed, different people have different requirements. What's a bit
annoying is being pilloried for pointing out that one size doesn't
fit all.
--
Roland Perry