Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqhrir$tdg$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:59 on Wed, 29 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sq5k6q$90v$2@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:30 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sq1me1$1a3$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:57 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
>>>>>>> of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
>>>>>>> (and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
>>>>>>> Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
>>>>>>> is how many developers test their products).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd rather receive emailed PDFs than have to have a unique app installed
>>>>>> for every vendor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what happened to the "pass" system (as implemented on the
>>>>> PassWallet, and other, apps). That at least gathers all the e-tickets in
>>>>> one place, whereas I don't regard "scattered through my email spool" as
>>>>> 'one place'.
>>>>
>>>> ISTR you complained that extracting them from email to pass wallet was too
>>>> much of a chore.
>>>
>>> The chore is having to extract them at all. Why can't they be pushed to
>>> the app? Just like ITSO tickets are pushed to Apps, for local transfer
>>> transfer to a card (which is fairly straightforward).
>>
>> You complained that having in-app wallets was too difficult because you
>> wouldn't be able to remember which app you'd used to buy the ticket.
>
> There's two use-cases here.
>
> One is buying a ticket significantly ahead of travelling, where if sent
> as a PDF you'd have to remember which sender to look for in the email
> spool. The other is buying ticket at the last minute, where one probably
> still has the app in question open on the phone.

Or just use the apps, eg LNER, that deliver both an in app ticket and an
emailed pdf. (I’ve not tried it, but I suspect that if your order on you
laptop via the LNER site the ticket will be available on the app’s wallet).

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqhrir$tdg$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:00 on Wed, 29 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <oq59sg53f0onh5ci556d0o2mm169fn4heh@4ax.com>, at 15:37:05 on
>>> Thu, 23 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:51:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> But most people seem able to access their email with equal convenience on
>>>>>> either phone or computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>>>>> require editing and sending back?
>>>>
>>>> You can certainly access them, yes. Editing them is a different
>>>> function, which may be harder, or even practically impossible, depending
>>>> on the nature of the document. But an e-ticket doesn't require editing.
>>>> It only requires access.
>>>
>>> We really do have to concentrate on this business of accessing emails,
>>> versus accessing the processing the content of email versus the
>>> protocols used to send data from a supplier to a consumer. e-tickets
>>> ordered in-app, should never be in an email in the first place.
>>
>> Emailed PDFs are easier to forward to other people, for example if one
>> person books tickets for two people travelling together, in order to get
>> seats together.
>
> Agreed, but a bit of a rush if you ordered the tickets just before
> travelling (and in any event I rarely travel on trains with reserved
> seating).
>
> The somewhat separate business of one person being able to buy tickets
> for two people to use, raises its ugly head for contactless PAYG too.
>
> In many ways, buying paper tickets and handing them over, is still the
> "keep it simple" option.
>
>

I booked tickets for both of us for our first day in Portugal through the
CP website, because the trains are reservation-only and would probably have
sold out before we arrived. Paper tickets don't suitably substitute for
that; any paper involved would be postal and quite likely involve an
intermediary.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <sqi9ai$hf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:27:30 on Wed, 29 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sqhrir$tdg$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:00 on Wed, 29 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <oq59sg53f0onh5ci556d0o2mm169fn4heh@4ax.com>, at 15:37:05 on
>>>> Thu, 23 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:51:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But most people seem able to access their email with equal
>>>>>>>convenience on
>>>>>>> either phone or computer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>>>>>> require editing and sending back?
>>>>>
>>>>> You can certainly access them, yes. Editing them is a different
>>>>> function, which may be harder, or even practically impossible, depending
>>>>> on the nature of the document. But an e-ticket doesn't require editing.
>>>>> It only requires access.
>>>>
>>>> We really do have to concentrate on this business of accessing emails,
>>>> versus accessing the processing the content of email versus the
>>>> protocols used to send data from a supplier to a consumer. e-tickets
>>>> ordered in-app, should never be in an email in the first place.
>>>
>>> Emailed PDFs are easier to forward to other people, for example if one
>>> person books tickets for two people travelling together, in order to get
>>> seats together.
>>
>> Agreed, but a bit of a rush if you ordered the tickets just before
>> travelling (and in any event I rarely travel on trains with reserved
>> seating).
>>
>> The somewhat separate business of one person being able to buy tickets
>> for two people to use, raises its ugly head for contactless PAYG too.
>>
>> In many ways, buying paper tickets and handing them over, is still the
>> "keep it simple" option.
>
>I booked tickets for both of us for our first day in Portugal through the
>CP website, because the trains are reservation-only and would probably have
>sold out before we arrived. Paper tickets don't suitably substitute for
>that; any paper involved would be postal and quite likely involve an
>intermediary.

I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
use.

Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
--
Roland Perry

In message <sqi7hk$3sv$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:57:08 on Wed, 29 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sqhrir$tdg$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:32:59 on Wed, 29 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sq5k6q$90v$2@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:30 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sq1me1$1a3$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:57 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> one of the things which doesn't fit well on a phone is emailed PDFs
>>>>>>>> of travel tickets, when an in-app delivery would be entirely acceptable
>>>>>>>> (and in turn wouldn't work very well on a laptop, unless you have an
>>>>>>>> Android phone emulator on it, which I suspect is slightly unusual, but
>>>>>>>> is how many developers test their products).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd rather receive emailed PDFs than have to have a unique app installed
>>>>>>> for every vendor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder what happened to the "pass" system (as implemented on the
>>>>>> PassWallet, and other, apps). That at least gathers all the e-tickets in
>>>>>> one place, whereas I don't regard "scattered through my email spool" as
>>>>>> 'one place'.
>>>>>
>>>>> ISTR you complained that extracting them from email to pass wallet was too
>>>>> much of a chore.
>>>>
>>>> The chore is having to extract them at all. Why can't they be pushed to
>>>> the app? Just like ITSO tickets are pushed to Apps, for local transfer
>>>> transfer to a card (which is fairly straightforward).
>>>
>>> You complained that having in-app wallets was too difficult because you
>>> wouldn't be able to remember which app you'd used to buy the ticket.
>>
>> There's two use-cases here.
>>
>> One is buying a ticket significantly ahead of travelling, where if sent
>> as a PDF you'd have to remember which sender to look for in the email
>> spool. The other is buying ticket at the last minute, where one probably
>> still has the app in question open on the phone.
>
>Or just use the apps, eg LNER, that deliver both an in app ticket and an
>emailed pdf. (I’ve not tried it, but I suspect that if your order on you
>laptop via the LNER site the ticket will be available on the app’s wallet).

The problem at the moment is finding that silver-bullet app[2] which
does the biggest set of available tickets and delivery mechanisms.

They *aren't* all equal. And that's before we consider special "buy
local" discounts only available to LNER customers and not for example on
the same ECML ticket bought from TfW, or delivery to a Smartcard, which
might be interoperable[1] with more than their native app.

[1] I've posted before that EMR and GA Smartcards appear to be
interoperable, perhaps sharing a common Abellio-commissioned back
office. But drawing up a matrix of this is going to be time
consuming. Also how, when I reported to Southeastern that their app
crashed when I presented an ITSO card to the phone, their first
response was "probably because it wasn't one of *our* ITSO cards".
Not that this is an acceptable excuse for crashing (rather than
ignoring) the card). Nor was it true - it crashed with their card
too!

[2] For a long time Hull Trains was the closest to a silver-bullet
website. But that's now been replaced by a horrible one. It also had
the same "same TOC" drawback of most booking sites (app or web), viz
not being able to customise seat reservations on other TOC's trains.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>(coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>the latest legislation.

Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
the 7Cities trains is in standard class.

Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.

I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
Scotrail?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>> the latest legislation.
>
> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>
> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.

Almost certainly. The disabled toilet would have been installed many years
earlier, and there's no way it would be compliant with every detail of the
latest legislation.

> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
> Scotrail?

All of the fleet will have had disabled toilets, but they'd have been
compliant with the rules in force when they were last refurbished years
earlier.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <aqdjsgdh9prtsa9j6tnh1ftpuegvhsk047@4ax.com>, at 12:53:57 on
>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:41:23 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
>>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT
>>>>>>>>>> EMUs were given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue
>>>>>>>>>> in that case being on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>>>>>>> the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>>>>> and it lists the following aspects:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>>>>> were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But going on...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>>>>>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>>>>> 5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>>>>> 5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>>>>>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>>>>>> of toilet control devices.
>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>>>>>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>>>>> 5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nothing about retention tanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>>>>> oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>>>>> 2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
>>>> accessibility list?
>>>
>>> No, it's because you seemed surprised that they weren't.
>>
>> Is it possible that's why I asked "What was the problem with the HSTs?"
>> and didn't get much of a reply.
>>
>> And all we've really established is that at least one HST has "had an
>> accessible toilet for 20yrs", and no detail about the pace of rollout.
>> Apart from two lots of anecdata about MML HSTs, which is roughly where I
>> came in.
>
> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
> the latest legislation.
>

Are you sure it was coach B? I've found an old fGW HST seating plan, and
the accessible toilets are in coach C:
<https://www.pdffiller.com/jsfiller-desk12/?requestHash=64a3f1a26ebb5e363a8fe8062d694f72378f1ff7cbb4d41603a692baab9690c8&projectId=890394937&loader=tips&replace_gtm=false#25213171a90eb670c60b39f1c0e027b9>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqi9ai$hf5$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:27:30 on Wed, 29 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sqhrir$tdg$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:00 on Wed, 29 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <oq59sg53f0onh5ci556d0o2mm169fn4heh@4ax.com>, at 15:37:05 on
>>>>> Thu, 23 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:51:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sq087j$ua$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:18:27 on Wed, 22 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But most people seem able to access their email with equal
>>>>>>>> convenience on
>>>>>>>> either phone or computer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even when many of those emails have 20-page Word attachments, hat
>>>>>>> require editing and sending back?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can certainly access them, yes. Editing them is a different
>>>>>> function, which may be harder, or even practically impossible, depending
>>>>>> on the nature of the document. But an e-ticket doesn't require editing.
>>>>>> It only requires access.
>>>>>
>>>>> We really do have to concentrate on this business of accessing emails,
>>>>> versus accessing the processing the content of email versus the
>>>>> protocols used to send data from a supplier to a consumer. e-tickets
>>>>> ordered in-app, should never be in an email in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> Emailed PDFs are easier to forward to other people, for example if one
>>>> person books tickets for two people travelling together, in order to get
>>>> seats together.
>>>
>>> Agreed, but a bit of a rush if you ordered the tickets just before
>>> travelling (and in any event I rarely travel on trains with reserved
>>> seating).
>>>
>>> The somewhat separate business of one person being able to buy tickets
>>> for two people to use, raises its ugly head for contactless PAYG too.
>>>
>>> In many ways, buying paper tickets and handing them over, is still the
>>> "keep it simple" option.
>>
>> I booked tickets for both of us for our first day in Portugal through the
>> CP website, because the trains are reservation-only and would probably have
>> sold out before we arrived. Paper tickets don't suitably substitute for
>> that; any paper involved would be postal and quite likely involve an
>> intermediary.
>
> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
> use.
>
> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)

When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sqk8kr$cs$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:11 on Thu, 30 Dec 2021,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <aqdjsgdh9prtsa9j6tnh1ftpuegvhsk047@4ax.com>, at 12:53:57 on
>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:41:23 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
>>>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT
>>>>>>>>>>> EMUs were given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue
>>>>>>>>>>> in that case being on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten
>>>>>>>>>>>years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't
>>>>>>>>>think I ever
>>>>>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit
>>>>>>>>>the coaches
>>>>>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting
>>>>>>>>the letter of
>>>>>>>> the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>>>>>> and it lists the following aspects:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>>>>>> were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But going on...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>>>>>>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>>>>>>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>>>>>>> of toilet control devices.
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>>>>>>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nothing about retention tanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>>>>>> oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>>>>>> 2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
>>>>> accessibility list?
>>>>
>>>> No, it's because you seemed surprised that they weren't.
>>>
>>> Is it possible that's why I asked "What was the problem with the HSTs?"
>>> and didn't get much of a reply.
>>>
>>> And all we've really established is that at least one HST has "had an
>>> accessible toilet for 20yrs", and no detail about the pace of rollout.
>>> Apart from two lots of anecdata about MML HSTs, which is roughly where I
>>> came in.
>>
>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>> the latest legislation.
>
>Are you sure it was coach B? I've found an old fGW HST seating plan, and
>the accessible toilets are in coach C:
><https://www.pdffiller.com/jsfiller-desk12/?requestHash=64a3f1a26ebb5e36
>3a8fe8062d694f72378f1ff7cbb4d41603a692baab9690c8&projectId=890394937&loa
>der=tips&replace_gtm=false#25213171a90eb670c60b39f1c0e027b9>

404, but I agree, the plans I can find (FGW high and low density, and
GWR density unspecified) have it in standard class C.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sqk5k5$3b1$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:37 on Thu, 30 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>> the latest legislation.
>>
>> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>>
>> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>
>Almost certainly. The disabled toilet would have been installed many years
>earlier, and there's no way it would be compliant with every detail of the
>latest legislation.
>
>> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>> Scotrail?
>
>All of the fleet will have had disabled toilets, but they'd have been
>compliant with the rules in force when they were last refurbished years
>earlier.

So you are postulating there are three versions of these toilets

Original (non-compliant)
Updated/refurbished (also non-compliant)
As eventually refurbished for a second time by Scotrail (complaint)
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 14:25:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sqk8kr$cs$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:28:11 on Thu, 30 Dec 2021,
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <aqdjsgdh9prtsa9j6tnh1ftpuegvhsk047@4ax.com>, at 12:53:57 on
>>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:41:23 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
>>>>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT
>>>>>>>>>>>> EMUs were given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue
>>>>>>>>>>>> in that case being on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten
>>>>>>>>>>>>years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't
>>>>>>>>>>think I ever
>>>>>>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>>>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit
>>>>>>>>>>the coaches
>>>>>>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting
>>>>>>>>>the letter of
>>>>>>>>> the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>>>>>>> and it lists the following aspects:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>>>>>>> were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But going on...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>>>>>>>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>>>>>>>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>>>>>>>> of toilet control devices.
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>>>>>>>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>>>>>>> 5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nothing about retention tanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>>>>>>> oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>>>>>>> 2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
>>>>>> accessibility list?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's because you seemed surprised that they weren't.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible that's why I asked "What was the problem with the HSTs?"
>>>> and didn't get much of a reply.
>>>>
>>>> And all we've really established is that at least one HST has "had an
>>>> accessible toilet for 20yrs", and no detail about the pace of rollout.
>>>> Apart from two lots of anecdata about MML HSTs, which is roughly where I
>>>> came in.
>>>
>>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>> the latest legislation.
>>
>>Are you sure it was coach B? I've found an old fGW HST seating plan, and
>>the accessible toilets are in coach C:
>><https://www.pdffiller.com/jsfiller-desk12/?requestHash=64a3f1a26ebb5e36
>>3a8fe8062d694f72378f1ff7cbb4d41603a692baab9690c8&projectId=890394937&loa
>>der=tips&replace_gtm=false#25213171a90eb670c60b39f1c0e027b9>
>
>404, but I agree, the plans I can find (FGW high and low density, and
>GWR density unspecified) have it in standard class C.

Yes, that's the same as I found. There's also a wheelchair space in first class, but no disabled toilet.

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 14:27:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <sqk5k5$3b1$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:37 on Thu, 30 Dec
>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>>> the latest legislation.
>>>
>>> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>>> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>>> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>>>
>>> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>>> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>>
>>Almost certainly. The disabled toilet would have been installed many years
>>earlier, and there's no way it would be compliant with every detail of the
>>latest legislation.
>>
>>> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>>> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>>> Scotrail?
>>
>>All of the fleet will have had disabled toilets, but they'd have been
>>compliant with the rules in force when they were last refurbished years
>>earlier.
>
>So you are postulating there are three versions of these toilets
>
>Original (non-compliant)
>Updated/refurbished (also non-compliant)
>As eventually refurbished for a second time by Scotrail (complaint)

Yes, but each version would have been compliant with the rules of the day.

In message <sqkej6$o4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:42 on Thu, 30 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
>> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
>> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
>> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
>> use.
>>
>> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
>> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
>
>When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
>The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
>compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.

I thought composting was a way to prevent multiple-use of walk-up
tickets, whereas TGV ones are almost always [someone is bound to have a
counter-example] linked to one specific train like our AP tickets.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqkej6$o4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:42 on Thu, 30 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
>>> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
>>> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
>>> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
>>> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
>>
>> When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
>> The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
>> compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.
>
> I thought composting was a way to prevent multiple-use of walk-up
> tickets, whereas TGV ones are almost always [someone is bound to have a
> counter-example] linked to one specific train like our AP tickets.

I know this is an old site, and there are many ticketing variants these
days, but check the ticket shown here:

<https://parisbytrain.com/france-tgv-train-ticket-validation-punching/>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>> the latest legislation.
>
> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>
> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>
> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
> Scotrail?

Perhaps even the updated ones still didn't meet the letter of the current
regulations (the refurb was a good few years ago, after all). Didn't you
detail the non-compliances a few posts ago (size of baby-changing table
etc.)?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <aqdjsgdh9prtsa9j6tnh1ftpuegvhsk047@4ax.com>, at 12:53:57 on
>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:41:23 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <igbjsg5n8d3853j22hrs30erj0mvr0abp4@4ax.com>, at 12:17:01 on
>>>>> Mon, 27 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:49:13 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sq5k6p$90v$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:13:29 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sq497o$41b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:08 on Fri, 24 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sq2bin$a4s$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:27:51 on Thu, 23 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere there's a list (updated from time to time) of train types
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are exempt from DDA rules,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds interesting! Where do I find this list?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I found it when looking at SIs issued around the time some SWT
>>>>>>>>>>> EMUs were given a dispensation to carry on operating (the issue
>>>>>>>>>>> in that case being on-train PIS in too small a font). Ten years ago, perhaps?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, since then, we've had much more serious dispensations for
>>>>>>>>>>> things like HSTs without accessible toilets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That wasn't the problem with the HSTs, which have long had accessible
>>>>>>>>>> toilets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What was the problem with the HSTs? (I have to say I don't think I ever
>>>>>>>>> saw [inside] one with an accessible toilet, although Scotrail may have
>>>>>>>>> retro-fitted them, and I have seen one of their HSTs, albeit the coaches
>>>>>>>>> in the rake pre-refurbishment).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HSTs have had accessible toilets, though perhaps not meeting the letter of
>>>>>>>> the current regulations, for at least 20 years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been looking at the derogation for Scotrail's pre-refurbished HSTs,
>>>>>>> and it lists the following aspects:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 Accessible toilet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does that mean they were not accessible at all, or that not all of them
>>>>>>> were accessible, or is that just a subtitle?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But going on...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.2 (2) A visual and tactile (or audible) indication given inside
>>>>>>> and outside the toilet to indicate when locked.
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.6 (3) Visual indication that call for aid has been operated
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (2) Standard toilet door width
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.2(3),(4) Force to operate any door control device, and other
>>>>>>> equipment inside the toilet compartment and contrast
>>>>>>> of toilet control devices.
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.3 (3) Provision of a fixed vertical and/or horizontal handrail
>>>>>>> adjacent to the toilet seat and the wash basin.
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.4 (9) Height of toilet seat
>>>>>>> 5.3.2.5 (1-2) Baby change table - height and load bearing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nothing about retention tanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/upl
>>>>>>> oads/attachment_data/file/953089/scotrail-short-form-hsts-
>>>>>>> 2020-dispensation-letter-timed-document.pdf>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I've told you already, retention tanks are a separate aspect from
>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that's possibly why I mentioned they weren't on the
>>>>> accessibility list?
>>>>
>>>> No, it's because you seemed surprised that they weren't.
>>>
>>> Is it possible that's why I asked "What was the problem with the HSTs?"
>>> and didn't get much of a reply.
>>>
>>> And all we've really established is that at least one HST has "had an
>>> accessible toilet for 20yrs", and no detail about the pace of rollout.
>>> Apart from two lots of anecdata about MML HSTs, which is roughly where I
>>> came in.
>>
>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>> the latest legislation.
>>
>
> Are you sure it was coach B? I've found an old fGW HST seating plan, and
> the accessible toilets are in coach C:
> <https://www.pdffiller.com/jsfiller-desk12/?requestHash=64a3f1a26ebb5e363a8fe8062d694f72378f1ff7cbb4d41603a692baab9690c8&projectId=890394937&loader=tips&replace_gtm=false#25213171a90eb670c60b39f1c0e027b9>
>
>

Page not found.

This video <https://youtu.be/kMh7WTytZmo> suggests you're right and I'd
misremembered; the accessible toilet is in coach C, at the end adjacent to
coach B.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqk5k5$3b1$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:37 on Thu, 30 Dec
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>>> the latest legislation.
>>>
>>> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>>> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>>> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>>>
>>> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>>> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>>
>> Almost certainly. The disabled toilet would have been installed many years
>> earlier, and there's no way it would be compliant with every detail of the
>> latest legislation.
>>
>>> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>>> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>>> Scotrail?
>>
>> All of the fleet will have had disabled toilets, but they'd have been
>> compliant with the rules in force when they were last refurbished years
>> earlier.
>
> So you are postulating there are three versions of these toilets
>
> Original (non-compliant)
> Updated/refurbished (also non-compliant)
> As eventually refurbished for a second time by Scotrail (complaint)
>

I'm pretty sure there were at least three iterations of them just within
the (f)GW(R) fleet, particularly as the fleet gained extra vehicles from
other operators (MML RIO and XC).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:06:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>(coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>the latest legislation.
>
>Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>
>Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>
Not something non-tiolet related such as the slam doors or
non-compliant signage/grabrails?

>I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>Scotrail?

In message <c3ktsgt0nfu0idrjs6h36e2fe9a0ng1oos@4ax.com>, at 09:42:55 on
Fri, 31 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:06:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>>automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>>(coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>>those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>>during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>>the latest legislation.
>>
>>Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>>tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>>the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>>
>>Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>>un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>>
>Not something non-tiolet related such as the slam doors or
>non-compliant signage/grabrails?

Those are itemised *AS WELL*

There would be no need to itemise the *TOILET* things if they didn't
need fixing. Was the document I posted really that unclear?

>>I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>>the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>>Scotrail?

--
Roland Perry

In message <sqko69$kbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:29 on Thu, 30 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sqkej6$o4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:42 on Thu, 30 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
>>>> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
>>>> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
>>>> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
>>>> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
>>>
>>> When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
>>> The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
>>> compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.
>>
>> I thought composting was a way to prevent multiple-use of walk-up
>> tickets, whereas TGV ones are almost always [someone is bound to have a
>> counter-example] linked to one specific train like our AP tickets.
>
>I know this is an old site, and there are many ticketing variants these
>days, but check the ticket shown here:
>
><https://parisbytrain.com/france-tgv-train-ticket-validation-punching/>

Composted 20 minutes before the specific train departed. Alternate
theory: do they allow refund of un-used tickets, afterwards?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqko69$kbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:29 on Thu, 30 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sqkej6$o4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:42 on Thu, 30 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
>>>>> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
>>>>> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
>>>>> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
>>>>> use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
>>>>> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
>>>>
>>>> When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
>>>> The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
>>>> compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.
>>>
>>> I thought composting was a way to prevent multiple-use of walk-up
>>> tickets, whereas TGV ones are almost always [someone is bound to have a
>>> counter-example] linked to one specific train like our AP tickets.
>>
>> I know this is an old site, and there are many ticketing variants these
>> days, but check the ticket shown here:
>>
>> <https://parisbytrain.com/france-tgv-train-ticket-validation-punching/>
>
> Composted 20 minutes before the specific train departed. Alternate
> theory: do they allow refund of un-used tickets, afterwards?

But notice the warning printed along the top of the ticket. It’s a TGV
ticket but it specifically needs to be composted.

Sam

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In message <sqpaf9$592$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:30:01 on Sat, 1 Jan 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sqko69$kbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:29 on Thu, 30 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sqkej6$o4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:42 on Thu, 30 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
>>>>>> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
>>>>>> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
>>>>>> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
>>>>>> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
>>>>>
>>>>> When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
>>>>> The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
>>>>> compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.
>>>>
>>>> I thought composting was a way to prevent multiple-use of walk-up
>>>> tickets, whereas TGV ones are almost always [someone is bound to have a
>>>> counter-example] linked to one specific train like our AP tickets.
>>>
>>> I know this is an old site, and there are many ticketing variants these
>>> days, but check the ticket shown here:
>>>
>>> <https://parisbytrain.com/france-tgv-train-ticket-validation-punching/>
>>
>> Composted 20 minutes before the specific train departed. Alternate
>> theory: do they allow refund of un-used tickets, afterwards?
>
>But notice the warning printed along the top of the ticket. It’s a TGV
>ticket but it specifically needs to be composted.

Yes, I saw the warning, but why is it (the composting) necessary?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sqkrua$1gk$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:57:30 on Thu, 30 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button operated
>>> automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by 2000 at the latest
>>> (coach B in each set if someone can find some old fleetlists and correlate
>>> those to current numbers). Those toilets were replaced by updated ones
>>> during a later refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met
>>> the latest legislation.
>>
>> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>>
>> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>>
>> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>> Scotrail?
>
>Perhaps even the updated ones still didn't meet the letter of the current
>regulations (the refurb was a good few years ago, after all). Didn't you
>detail the non-compliances a few posts ago (size of baby-changing table
>etc.)?

Yes, I did.
--
Roland Perry

In message <p6hrsgpviv42avldqvc15d2lh6ppht0k9i@4ax.com>, at 14:40:59 on
Thu, 30 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 14:27:52 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sqk5k5$3b1$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:37 on Thu, 30 Dec
>>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sqhrit$tdg$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:33:01 on Wed, 29 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The fGW fleet all had a large toilet cubicle with push-button
>>>>>operated automatic sliding door, handrails on the wall etc, by
>>>>>2000 at the latest (coach B in each set if someone can find some
>>>>>old fleetlists and correlate those to current numbers). Those
>>>>>toilets were replaced by updated ones during a later
>>>>>refurbishment, presumably because they no longer exactly met the latest legislation.
>>>>
>>>> Coach B is the one-from-end Standard Class coach, and as far as I can
>>>> tell (it really shouldn't be this difficult) the accessible toilet in
>>>> the 7Cities trains is in standard class.
>>>>
>>>> Which must mean that the need for a dispensation for them when
>>>> un-refurbished means they were non-compliant in some way.
>>>
>>>Almost certainly. The disabled toilet would have been installed many years
>>>earlier, and there's no way it would be compliant with every detail of the
>>>latest legislation.
>>>
>>>> I wonder if all the fGW fleet was updated, or not, and it was perhaps
>>>> the latter which ended up at Papworth sidings to be later sent to
>>>> Scotrail?
>>>
>>>All of the fleet will have had disabled toilets, but they'd have been
>>>compliant with the rules in force when they were last refurbished years
>>>earlier.
>>
>>So you are postulating there are three versions of these toilets
>>
>>Original (non-compliant)
>>Updated/refurbished (also non-compliant)
>>As eventually refurbished for a second time by Scotrail (complaint)
>
>Yes, but each version would have been compliant with the rules of the day.

That's not really the point. I was exploring what aspects of end-of-life
HSTs made them either so non-compliant they need to be withdrawn, or in
the case of Scotrail, given a temporary dispensation.

As a side issue, were there no trailers at Papworth which had toilets
which didn't need further work (we agree that new doors and few other
things needed doing anyway).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sqpaf9$592$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:30:01 on Sat, 1 Jan 2022,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sqko69$kbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:53:29 on Thu, 30 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sqkej6$o4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:42 on Thu, 30 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've booked TGV tivkets for collection at the [departure] station, just
>>>>>>> like the Eurostar tickets for the cross-channel leg. Although SNCF did
>>>>>>> their best to complicate the matter by having three TVMs side by side on
>>>>>>> the concourse, and you needed to know (or eventually find out) which to
>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also never sure whether such tickets needed composting (cf off-putting
>>>>>>> signage about UK compulsory ticket areas)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When in doubt compostez! I once had an SNCF trip which started on a bus.
>>>>>> The driver stamped the tickets and when I asked her whether I needed to
>>>>>> compost them again at the station I got a (friendly) gallic shrug.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought composting was a way to prevent multiple-use of walk-up
>>>>> tickets, whereas TGV ones are almost always [someone is bound to have a
>>>>> counter-example] linked to one specific train like our AP tickets.
>>>>
>>>> I know this is an old site, and there are many ticketing variants these
>>>> days, but check the ticket shown here:
>>>>
>>>> <https://parisbytrain.com/france-tgv-train-ticket-validation-punching/>
>>>
>>> Composted 20 minutes before the specific train departed. Alternate
>>> theory: do they allow refund of un-used tickets, afterwards?
>>
>> But notice the warning printed along the top of the ticket. It’s a TGV
>> ticket but it specifically needs to be composted.
>
> Yes, I saw the warning, but why is it (the composting) necessary?

Parce que c’est la mode française!

Sam

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