In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:

>I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been used yet.
>Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.

How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?

That's the use-case which started this thread.

>Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are something
>like "your tickets".

--
Roland Perry

In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>multiple accounts.

That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
dozen it gets unmanageable.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sogl50$sb9$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:04:32 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>>You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>
>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>>> purchases).
>>>>
>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>>
>>> Well you’d better get used to it or stop travelling by train. The direction
>>> of all ticketing is heading away from ticket offices and ticket machines,
>>> and especially the use of cash. It will be salami slices, with a few wrong
>>> turns along the way, but it will happen.
>>
>> Which is why I buy my ticket from the staffed ticket office at my local
>> station.

Lucky you. And what if the ticket office has a notice in the window
saying "I'm on my break, back in half an hour" - which is a favourite at
Ely? Unless there's another saying "due to staff shortages, closed
today".

That's the point when lots of people reluctantly start using the ticket
machines, which promptly gets a ten minute queue, and then runs out of
blanks, and the downward spiral begins.

>>I don’t want the local station staff to be thrown into the dole
>> queue. The traditional card ticket is appropriate technology, IMO. If the
>> battery on my phone dies I still have a valid ticket.
>
>Tried that approach with my bank. Doesn’t stop the branches closing.

Indeed. And at the moment I have one credit card whose app I am trialing
(to see if there's any utility in getting statements on demand rather
than monthly)
--
Roland Perry

In message <soer6a$iu7$4@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:22 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>>> were invented?
>>
>> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
>> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
>> expressly for that purpose.
>
>They still exist in many places, including Paddington,

Even on the Bakerloo Line?

>Reading and Bristol Temple Meads.

I suppose Reading is partly TfL these days.

ps I've actually given up wondering when the Elizabeth Line will open.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sofo39$j8e$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:41 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
>>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>>
>> Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.
>
>Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts. Scary
>notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry some and put
>others off the railways.

That's right. There are massive very scary signs at my station, right
where the barriers would be if they installed some. What are people
supposed to think, if they turn up and find the ticket office closed?

Los of them clearly have technophobia which rules out using the
machines, not surprising given the Balkanisation of the fares system,
and a user interface which hides essential elements away so you need
quite a bit of practice to find them.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sog1hq$4v1$3@dont-email.me>, at 15:30:02 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts.
>>Scary notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry
>>some and put others off the railways.
>
>Really? Please cite where this is the proven case. The penalty is going
>up from £80 to £100,

Ahem, it's going up from £20 to £100, for a lot of journeys.

>are you seriously asking me to believe that people are happy to be
>threatened with an £80 fine but I going to be scared out of their wits
>at the thought of £100 fine in this day and age?

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soer6a$iu7$4@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:22 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>>>> were invented?
>>>
>>> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
>>> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
>>> expressly for that purpose.
>>
>> They still exist in many places, including Paddington,
>
> Even on the Bakerloo Line?
>
>> Reading and Bristol Temple Meads.
>
> I suppose Reading is partly TfL these days.
>
> ps I've actually given up wondering when the Elizabeth Line will open.

Obviously, the Reading part is already open. The central London section is
currently expected to open next spring, but through services from the west
will be later.

I think it's physically complete, with the software almost ready, and now
it's a case of rehearsing lots of operational scenarios (ie, dealing with
various different problems, faults, evacuations, etc) and bedding down the
trial operations. Some of the NR stations are still incomplete, but that
won't delay the opening.

Latest update: https://youtu.be/WXZ2BEthYEc

In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>
>Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is intriguing and
>amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.

The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and hence
appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for purpose.

Perhaps you could remember that?
--
Roland Perry

On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>> multiple accounts.
>
> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
> dozen it gets unmanageable.

You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been used yet.
>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>
> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>
> That's the use-case which started this thread.
>
>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are something
>> like "your tickets".
>
Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email address they
can access from the phone in their hand. Problem solved.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/12/2021 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sogl50$sb9$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:04:32 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>> You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have
>>>>> routine
>>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this
>>>>> kind of
>>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half
>>>>> of my
>>>>> purchases).
>>>>>
>>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Well you’d better get used to it or stop travelling by train. The
>>>> direction
>>>> of all ticketing is heading away from ticket offices and ticket
>>>> machines,
>>>> and especially the use of cash. It will be salami slices, with a few
>>>> wrong
>>>> turns along the way, but it will happen.
>>>
>>> Which is why I buy my ticket from the staffed ticket office at my local
>>> station.
>
> Lucky you. And what if the ticket office has a notice in the window
> saying "I'm on my break, back in half an hour" - which is a favourite at
> Ely? Unless there's another saying "due to staff shortages, closed today".
>
> That's the point when lots of people reluctantly start using the ticket
> machines, which promptly gets a ten minute queue, and then runs out of
> blanks, and the downward spiral begins.

Guildford station has two entrances, the main one with a staffed ticket
office on the down (town) side, and another on the up side that only has
a couple of ticket machines. This one is the one that is heavily used by
students from the university as the bus stops right outside. Most of
whom will be buying individual tickets for one-off journeys. I've never
known it to run out of ticket blanks and I suspect far more people use
it than the one at Ely.

Sounds like another hypothetical "can't work in East Anglia" problem.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sode7d$sv9$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:47:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>>>>>collection).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>>>>>(although
>>>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and
>>>>>>>>>>PDF [so much
>>>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>
>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>
>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>>> purchases).
>>>
>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>
>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>
>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> You'd have to ask the people who write mobile phone operating systems
>> why they are so fiddly to use for rather a lot of "one click" stuff on a
>> desktop. But of course another reason is that my phone doesn't have a
>> mouse, combined with a screen which has a mere fraction of the real
>> estate of my desktop.
>
>Doesn’t your email do imap?

IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
that's a rather strange comment to make.

ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but they've
worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and it's that
layer (not the transport) which has the operational issues.
--
Roland Perry

On 06/12/2021 09:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sofo39$j8e$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:41 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately
>>>> ticketless.
>>>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>>>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>>>
>>> Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.
>>
>> Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts. Scary
>> notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry some and
>> put
>> others off the railways.
>
> That's right. There are massive very scary signs at my station, right
> where the barriers would be if they installed some. What are people
> supposed to think, if they turn up and find the ticket office closed?

Rubbish, the people you think will be scared don't believe the signs
apply to them. The people who should be sacred don't think they will get
caught.

>
> Los of them clearly have technophobia which rules out using the
> machines,

That's their problem, how the devil did they cope with lockdown where
being able to use appropriate technology has been the only way to do
anything.

> not surprising given the Balkanisation of the fares system,
> and a user interface which hides essential elements away so you need
> quite a bit of practice to find them.

I assume Ely ticket machines have a totally different interface to all
the other machines on the network.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>
>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is intriguing and
>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>
> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and hence
> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for purpose.

For you, with your 20th century mindset. They work just fine for the rest
of us.

>
> Perhaps you could remember that?

We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were a
pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still stuck in
that era.

On 06/12/2021 10:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sode7d$sv9$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:47:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is  broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge
>>>>>>>>>>>> return
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket,  for example).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues
>>>>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify
>>>>>>>>>>> as an
>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>>>>>> collection).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>>>>>> (although
>>>>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and
>>>>>>>>>>> PDF [so much
>>>>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their
>>>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which
>>>>>>>>> requires
>>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my
>>>>>>> desktop, not
>>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have
>>>>> routine
>>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this
>>>>> kind of
>>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half
>>>>> of my
>>>>> purchases).
>>>>
>>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>>
>>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>>
>>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>
>>> You'd have to ask the people who write mobile phone operating systems
>>> why they are so fiddly to use for rather a lot of "one click" stuff on a
>>> desktop. But of course another reason is that my phone doesn't have a
>>> mouse, combined with a screen which has a mere fraction of the real
>>> estate of my desktop.
>>
>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>
> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>
> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but they've
> worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and it's that
> layer (not the transport) which has the operational issues.

Get a decent client, there are many around.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/12/2021 10:33, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/12/2021 09:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sofo39$j8e$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:41 on Sat, 4 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately
>>>>> ticketless.
>>>>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>>>>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>>>>
>>>> Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.
>>>
>>> Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts. Scary
>>> notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry some
>>> and put
>>> others off the railways.
>>
>> That's right. There are massive very scary signs at my station, right
>> where the barriers would be if they installed some. What are people
>> supposed to think, if they turn up and find the ticket office closed?
>
> Rubbish, the people you think will be scared don't believe the signs
> apply to them. The people who should be sacred don't think they will get
> caught.

Sacred? obviously a religious bunch! scared is what I meant.

>
>>
>> Los of them clearly have technophobia which rules out using the machines,
>
> That's their problem, how the devil did they cope with lockdown where
> being able to use appropriate technology has been the only way to do
> anything.
>
>> not surprising given the Balkanisation of the fares system, and a user
>> interface which hides essential elements away so you need quite a bit
>> of practice to find them.
>
> I assume Ely ticket machines have a totally different interface to all
> the other machines on the network.
>
>

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 12:59:50 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 07:39, Tweed wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>
>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). More
>>> importantly, the price differences between them were reasonable. Now
>>> returns have become Anytimes and are eye wateringly priced (£170 for 100
>>> miles to London). And there was none of this Advance ticket rubbish that
>>> restricts you to a given train. The argument for these is it gives people
>>> the opportunity to buy an affordable ticket. We used to have affordable
>>> flexible tickets before they were made very expensive. I can see an
>>> argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
>>> this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
>>> can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
>>> around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
>>> have a reservation system.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry that is a load of golden age guff. There were more than the just 3
>> types of ticket even in BR days. Complaints about the fares being too
>> high were universal than as now.
>>
>
>Depends where you live. Down south you appear to have remarkably good value
>tickets compared to the East Midlands. Bet you don’t pay 85p/mile for an
>Anytime ticket.

The first fare I looked up was Tottenham Hale to Liverpool St which is
91p/mile for its 6 miles.

I don't doubt the fare you quoted but it I suggest it's an outlier. I
am convinced that fares on National Rail in the southeast are on
average higher than elsewhere. Why wouldn't they be when the raiways
are trying to maximise income and the southeast's commuter market is
huge?

On 2021-12-04 04:35:24 +0000, Anna Noyd-Dryver said:

> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>
>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>
>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>>> purchases).
>>>
>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>
>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>
>
> Can't you have an email client on your phone to access the one one specific
> POP3 account which you tickets get delivered to?

The problem with POP3 is that it is designed around the idea that when
an email client downloads a message, it is no longer available on the
server. This made sense when a person would access their email account
from exactly one computer, and when 1 MB was big, and server-side
storage limits caused problems. In the modern era where 1 GB is not
big anymore, having all of your mail stored server side is not a
problem, and most people have multiple devices they want to access
their email on. The solution to this problem is IMAP, but for some
reason Roland does not wish to use this widely available solution, and
would rather complain about the problem.

Robin

In message <sodedr$uii$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:23 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are
>>>>>>>>>>Collection, Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I
>>>>>>>>>>have issues regarding an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket
>>>>>>>>>>(although it does qualify as an e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>>>>>collection).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>>>>>(although the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!)
>>>>>>>>>>Collection and PDF [so much for GTR's franchise commitment to
>>>>>>>>>>roll ITSO out across their whole network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>
>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>
>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>>> purchases).
>>>
>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>
>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>
>Why can't the email client access POP3 accounts?

Because I haven't set it up to do so (it has the capability; and IMAP
too, but that's not a relevant distinction).

>And what would be overwhelmed by a few email accesses?

The inbox/folder structure. Despite applying quite a bit of filtering,
and trailing it with an email address I don't use as much, it's got
almost 800 emails. Which is far more than can be usefully access through
a porthole.

>>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> You'd have to ask the people who write mobile phone operating systems
>> why they are so fiddly to use for rather a lot of "one click" stuff on a
>> desktop. But of course another reason is that my phone doesn't have a
>> mouse, combined with a screen which has a mere fraction of the real
>> estate of my desktop.
>
>Doesn't your phone have a touch screen? Unless you're disabled, it should
>be perfectly possible to forward mail using a single touch.

First you have to find the email you want to forward. And then find the
person you want to forward it to. So not quite "one" click. (On the
desktop it's not a single-click, but the process known as "one click"
can be done with literally three clicks).

Curiously (and quite separate from this thread) I did use it this
morning to forward an email (a photo I'll be posting later, from my
desktop).

>You do seem to make a point of deliberately using under-specified phones.

I'm currently using an LG6, which I wouldn't describe as "under
specified", for its day. $700 when launched.

>And what's all this about your "work phone"? Didn't you retire years ago?

I retired from my work in Westminster (mainly because it dried up due to
Brexit, and clients suspected - correctly as it turned out - that
there'd be little Parliamentary head-space for anything else for years).

I have a part time job for almost three years now, in a completely
different industry (gets me out of the house).
--
Roland Perry

In message <mllkqgh7q13p5df5v2ap2gfjpvpqscnuqu@4ax.com>, at 17:46:56 on
Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 17:35:52 +0000, Rupert Moss-Eccardt
><nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>
>>On 3 Dec 2021 15:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>>
>>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>
>>The Gmail client on every current Android can happily cope with
>>multiple POP3 accounts.

It's the gmail client (although I'm using a third party one that
everyone says is better) that I have issues with.

>It can, although accessing POP3 accounts from multiple devices can cause
>issues with availability of mail, since mail is supposed to be deleted
>from a POP3 account once downloaded. There are workarounds to this, but
>they're not reliable. Accessing multiple IMAP (or, for that matter,
>Microsoft Exchange, which the Gmail app also supports) accounts is much
>more robust and more reliable.
>
>Having said that, POP3 is now such an antiquated means of handling email
>that, in my opinion, anyone still choosing to use it instead of IMAP
>deserves all the pain that they are inflicting on themselves. And I'd be
>genuinely surprised if any organisation was mandating the use of POP3
>for its staff, contractors or members, since IMAP or Exchange gives the
>organisation much greater control over the mail (including enforced
>retention and deletion schedules), something which is often necessary
>for data protection reasons.

You've completely missed the point. It's not the transport that's the
issue (although I admit I was using "POP3" to contrast with webmail, not
with IMAP) bu the usability of a phone to handle large quantities of
email, however it arrives there.

My other phone is connected up to an Exchange server, and the user
experience is appalling. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 07:38:31 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sog07r$dhj$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:07:38 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>>
>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>>very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>>convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>>change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>
>>I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>>through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>
>Emailing pdfs is also very clunky - why can't they push the tickets to
>the booking app, in the same way Google Play pushes new apps to your
>phone?
>

As I have said at least twice this is exactly what does happen, with
GA at least. Buy a ticket from the app or on the web and they just
appear in the app ready for use.

>Although that begs the question of "what is 'the App' ". As I said the
>other day I have rather a large number of train booking apps, as well as
>bus booking apps, an electric bike booking app, and all the other
>ecommerce apps on the phone.
>
>I have an inkling I might be needing the Uber app later in the week. So
>far I've avoided using it, mainly because they don't have any cabs in
>the part of the country I live. But if I do travel somewhere and use it,
>will I find they insist on emailing me a pdf with the booking details,
>or will it magically appear in-app?
>
>[Sort of a genuine question, but I'd be very surprised to find it needed
> a pdf viewer.]
>
>>Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>
>>I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>>apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
>>address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>
>>
>>
>>

In message <soer6b$iu7$5@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:24 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are
>>>>>>>>>>Collection, Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I
>>>>>>>>>>have issues regarding an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket
>>>>>>>>>>(although it does qualify as an e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>>>>>collection).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>>>>>(although the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!)
>>>>>>>>>>Collection and PDF [so much for GTR's franchise commitment to
>>>>>>>>>>roll ITSO out across their whole network by about four years ago].

>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>
>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>
>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>>> purchases).
>>>
>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>
>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>
>Can't you have an email client on your phone to access the one one specific
>POP3 account which you tickets get delivered to?

That would mean having a special account for tickets, and apart from
having to go round all my Apps and browsers changing the login
credentials, why should I have to, when other much less clunky ways of
delivering tickets ought to be possible.

Talking of clunky, I parked my car at a station recently, and the
payment scheme wasn't any of the several apps I've had to set up (almost
all of them subsequently only to be used once) and the ticket machine
was very cumbersome. They clearly expect people to learn about it from
experience, rather than actually having a decent user interface. Good
news is, the screen was readable, the one at a hospital I visited a
couple of years ago the backlight appeared to be broken, and in the
absence of any street lighting, it was impossible to use without a
torch.

Anyway back at the station, rather than issue an actual ticket it did
everything by ANPR, and had a somewhat hectoring: "You have overstayed
by 7hrs, that will be £5". But I hadn't overstayed, I was wanting a
day-ticket (which is £5). Luckily I was driving my own car, so I knew
the registration number; had it been my wife's I would have no idea.
Overall it was about a dozen "clicks", whatever happened to machines
with a big button on the front which you press once for a day-ticket?
--
Roland Perry

On 06/12/2021 10:50, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <mllkqgh7q13p5df5v2ap2gfjpvpqscnuqu@4ax.com>, at 17:46:56 on
> Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 17:35:52 +0000, Rupert Moss-Eccardt
>> <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3 Dec 2021 15:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>> 2021,
>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>>>
>>>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>>>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>>
>>> The Gmail client on every current Android can happily cope with
>>> multiple POP3 accounts.
>
> It's the gmail client (although I'm using a third party one that
> everyone says is better) that I have issues with.
>
>> It can, although accessing POP3 accounts from multiple devices can cause
>> issues with availability of mail, since mail is supposed to be deleted
>> from a POP3 account once downloaded. There are workarounds to this, but
>> they're not reliable. Accessing multiple IMAP (or, for that matter,
>> Microsoft Exchange, which the Gmail app also supports) accounts is much
>> more robust and more reliable.
>>
>> Having said that, POP3 is now such an antiquated means of handling email
>> that, in my opinion, anyone still choosing to use it instead of IMAP
>> deserves all the pain that they are inflicting on themselves. And I'd be
>> genuinely surprised if any organisation was mandating the use of POP3
>> for its staff, contractors or members, since IMAP or Exchange gives the
>> organisation much greater control over the mail (including enforced
>> retention and deletion schedules), something which is often necessary
>> for data protection reasons.
>
> You've completely missed the point. It's not the transport that's the
> issue (although I admit I was using "POP3" to contrast with webmail, not
> with IMAP) bu the usability of a phone to handle large quantities of
> email, however it arrives there.
>
> My other phone is connected up to an Exchange server, and the user
> experience is appalling. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Simple solution, don't use Exchange.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/12/2021 11:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <soer6b$iu7$5@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:24 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is  broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge
>>>>>>>>>>>> return
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket,  for example).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are
>>>>>>>>>>> Collection,  Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I
>>>>>>>>>>> have issues regarding  an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket
>>>>>>>>>>> (although it does qualify as an  e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>>>>>> collection).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>>>>>> (although  the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!)
>>>>>>>>>>> Collection and PDF [so much  for GTR's franchise commitment
>>>>>>>>>>> to roll ITSO out across their whole  network by about four
>>>>>>>>>>> years ago].
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which
>>>>>>>>> requires
>>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my
>>>>>>> desktop, not
>>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have
>>>>> routine
>>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this
>>>>> kind of
>>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half
>>>>> of my
>>>>> purchases).
>>>>
>>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>>
>>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>
>> Can't you have an email client on your phone to access the one one
>> specific
>> POP3 account which you tickets get delivered to?
>
> That would mean having a special account for tickets, and apart from
> having to go round all my Apps and browsers changing the login
> credentials, why should I have to, when other much less clunky ways of
> delivering tickets ought to be possible.

You have a choice of living in the real world and getting on with your
life, or remaining in your fantasy world where everything has to happen
the way you, and no-one else, wants it to and blaming everyone for your
stubborness. I'm sorry but the Royal Mail is never going to go back to
delivering letters four times a day so you can invite someone to tea the
same day.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sodpeh$d1s$2@dont-email.me>, at 18:59:29 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a
>>working printer.

>>I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>
>I switched to a laser printer, that solved the dried ink problem and
>it's up and running within seconds of me wanting it rather than waiting
>for the head clean and reset.

I switched to an inkjet printer which does a periodic automatic
head-clean, although I use it almost daily anyway.
--
Roland Perry