On 09/12/2021 19:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>> multiple accounts.
>
>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about
>>> a dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>
>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>
> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
> the number of TOCs I might use).

Monopoly power. If Tesco deploys IT designed by a half-wit, I'll go to
Asda. If BP requires me to stand on my head whilst negotiating a UI in
Latvian, I'll buy from Shell. If a TOC[1] can't be bothered to make
its machines usable, that's tough: there's no alternative to modifying
my behaviour to suit their arcane systems, and they know it.

[1] other station operators are available, but not at this station

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:13:10 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>Tell you what, this is how it *should* work:
>
>First of all provide paper tickets for people who want them. Actually,
>there are stations on the line where paper tickets from a TVM are *all*
>you have, for car parking.
>
>But for travellers, write an app

....that works for every TOC and every ticket retailer, and works on
every mobile device...

>that they can call up just before the
>train is due (not least because if the train turns out to have been
>cancelled, they might want to make alternative arrangements rather than
>wait an hour for the next one). Refund the parking ticket - maybe.
>
>The app knows where they are, and what the traveller's favourite tickets
>are. Bring up a pick-list, but obviously with a "something else",
>leading to some queries, if they are being adventurous.
>
>Push the ticket to the phone, so that *all* they have to do is present
>their NFC to a validator or barrier.
>
>Note the time when they touched out at the other end (the app would have
>to be tickling the NFC in anticipation) and twice for the return trip.
>At the end of the day, work out what the most appropriate fare would be
>(anytime, off-peak, railcard validity etc) and charge that to the
>customer's credit card.

This is possibly something that Great British Railways might want to
invest in when it comes into being. It's the sort of thing that a
unified network can do, as evidenced by TFL's investment in Oyster. In
the meantime, Network Rail, the TOCs and third party ticket vendors have
little incentive to cooperate on a common platform and app. And unless
it is common to all sources of tickets, the ticket sellers won't be able
to rely on customers having it, so they will still need to provide
electronic delivery by other means, such as email.

Mark

On 09/12/2021 17:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec
>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>> 2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>>
>>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>>
>>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>>> district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
>>>>> "coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th Century,
>>>>> but a further separation in more recent years.
>>
>>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>>> based  in Manchester.
>>
>>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>>> Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>>> affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>>> couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them out,
>>>> a regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new organisation.
>>
>>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer
>>>> Affairs programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>>
>>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>>> programme.
>>
>> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly every
>> day, and this sequence of events played out.
>
> I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually take
> much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't work on
> that episode.

Off-topic even for us, but do you know how the digital clock behind the
Nationwide presenters was operated? It always showed the right time
but, in years of careful watching, I never saw its Solari style digits
flip over to the next minute on-screen, which struck me as curious.
flip digits as [obrail] Solari board

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>> multiple accounts.
>
>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>
>>You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>
>Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>the number of TOCs I might use).

You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
surely, than needing a dozen different apps.

Mark

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>
>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>
>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>
>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>
> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>
> Mark
>

I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:32:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <mk4lqgdglqpc327o7ukkp49ollpkk0mmln@4ax.com>, at 22:54:32 on
>Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>
>>>In theory if you aren't an invalid, you aren't supposed to use the
>>>concessions given to invalid carriages (of which mobility scooters are
>>>nowadays one of the most visible incarnations).
>>>
>>You can be an invalid without being a disabled person.
>
>Can you be an invalid entitled to take advantage of the concessions
>available to mobility scooter drivers, but not qualifying as whatever
>those rules define as "an invalid"?
>
You need to ask all of the multifarious service providers (e.g. TfL
will let you on the bus free without providing proof that you are
blind or unable to walk but others might not). Bear in mind also
(using someone known to me as an example) that mobility aids can be a
preventative measure against a person with degenerative conditions
reaching the state of being registered disabled.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 01:24:47 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:32:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <mk4lqgdglqpc327o7ukkp49ollpkk0mmln@4ax.com>, at 22:54:32 on
>>Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>In theory if you aren't an invalid, you aren't supposed to use the
>>>>concessions given to invalid carriages (of which mobility scooters are
>>>>nowadays one of the most visible incarnations).
>>>>
>>>You can be an invalid without being a disabled person.
>>
>>Can you be an invalid entitled to take advantage of the concessions
>>available to mobility scooter drivers, but not qualifying as whatever
>>those rules define as "an invalid"?
>>
>You need to ask all of the multifarious service providers (e.g. TfL
>will let you on the bus free without providing proof that you are
>blind or unable to walk but others might not). Bear in mind also
>(using someone known to me as an example) that mobility aids can be a
>preventative measure against a person with degenerative conditions
>reaching the state of being registered disabled.
>
Or maybe "disabled in terms of s.146 Transport Act 2000".

In message <sotp1a$epk$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:30:33 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 09/12/2021 17:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec
>>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>>2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>>>>district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
>>>>>>"coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th
>>>>>>Century, but a further separation in more recent years.
>>>
>>>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>>>>based  in Manchester.
>>>
>>>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>>>>Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>>>>affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>>>>couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them out,
>>>>>a regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new organisation.
>>>
>>>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer
>>>>>Affairs programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>>>
>>>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>>>>programme.
>>>
>>> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly
>>>every day, and this sequence of events played out.

>> I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually
>>take much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't
>>work on that episode.
>
>Off-topic even for us, but do you know how the digital clock behind the
>Nationwide presenters was operated? It always showed the right time
>but, in years of careful watching, I never saw its Solari style digits
>flip over to the next minute on-screen, which struck me as curious.
>flip digits as [obrail] Solari board

A school-friend of mine worked for BBC engineering, and was "in charge
of digital clocks", so I might ask him. His pride and joy was the Ceefax
clock, which was locked to Rugby (and completely custom built).

I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more detail to
see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid geeks has a
digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent TVs, one on
Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two seconds apart.

In other news, when the BBC went from having a slide projector behind
the presenter to show photographs illustrating the story they were
reading, to a digital system, I sold them the 33MB hard drive (very much
the state of the art at the time) onto which they digitised and stored
the photos before going on air. 1982 perhaps.

The price in those days was about the same as a small family car. I
think my sales target was about one a week.

Being a fully vertically integrated operation, as well as sales I was
also the one technician in the country with the full circuit diagrams
for the two-square-feet of TTL which comprised the drive's controller,
and was authorised to do component-level repairs.

[And then you had the customers like Aldermaston, who weren't allowed to
have off-site repairs done, but I digress]

Also designed and hand-built S100 adapter cards (just a fancy parallel
port, really) for the contemporary 8-bit microcomputers, and wrote
multi-tasking driver software for their operating systems. That last bit
was quite interesting, because it involved "elevator seeking".

Although the drives span pretty quickly, and data streamed off almost
too fast when positioned, the bottleneck was seeking across the 8"
platter, even with a voice-coil positioner. So rather than doing every
seek strictly in the order it was requested, if you were on the way from
(say) track 50 to track 200, and a request for data from track 150 came
in, you'd pause there and service that request first.

But none of this was the responsibility of the drive manufacturer (just
like storage device drivers weren't the responsibility of the OS
supplier). And because most of the customers just wanted something that
worked, and didn't have in-house engineering capability at that level,
to make the sale I had to provide that glue.

Youngsters today can barely comprehend understanding both hardware and
software at the same time, let alone being that kind of system
integrator.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sotodq$aj4$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:20:08 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 09/12/2021 19:17, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>
>>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about
>>>>a dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>
>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.

>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives
>>trains companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the
>>"dozen" is the number of TOCs I might use).
>
>Monopoly power. If Tesco deploys IT designed by a half-wit, I'll go to
>Asda. If BP requires me to stand on my head whilst negotiating a UI in
>Latvian, I'll buy from Shell. If a TOC[1] can't be bothered to make
>its machines usable, that's tough: there's no alternative to modifying
>my behaviour to suit their arcane systems, and they know it.
>
>[1] other station operators are available, but not at this station

Although this thread is more about the UI on apps, than the local TVMs.

And there *is* competition in that market, hence why I have over twenty
on my phone. But not every one seems to have access to every facility.
For example being able to choose seat reservations is often something
that only the matching TOC's App will allow.
--
Roland Perry

In message <1ia5rg5tvo3okv08iei4krmdlomr02rnq6@4ax.com>, at 01:24:47 on
Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:32:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <mk4lqgdglqpc327o7ukkp49ollpkk0mmln@4ax.com>, at 22:54:32 on
>>Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>In theory if you aren't an invalid, you aren't supposed to use the
>>>>concessions given to invalid carriages (of which mobility scooters are
>>>>nowadays one of the most visible incarnations).
>>>>
>>>You can be an invalid without being a disabled person.
>>
>>Can you be an invalid entitled to take advantage of the concessions
>>available to mobility scooter drivers, but not qualifying as whatever
>>those rules define as "an invalid"?
>>
>You need to ask all of the multifarious service providers (e.g. TfL
>will let you on the bus free without providing proof that you are
>blind or unable to walk but others might not).

Is that allowing you on the bus with a mobility scooter, or are you
trying to move the goalposts?

>Bear in mind also (using someone known to me as an example) that
>mobility aids can be a preventative measure against a person with
>degenerative conditions reaching the state of being registered disabled.

Probably so, but how does that intersect with the concessions given to
riders of mobility scooters?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>
>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>
>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>
>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>
>I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.

The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.

And this thread is mainly about what happens when the TVM is broken,
dear Liza.

I doubt for example you'll find the Scotrail App offering to deliver you
an HS1 ticket to a Southeastern ITSO card pressed against the back of
the phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ukp4rg9vb6s0teemqs6966pemgmr9i07ub@4ax.com>, at 20:38:24 on
Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>
>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>
>>>You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>
>>Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>the number of TOCs I might use).
>
>You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>surely, than needing a dozen different apps.

The different apps are required because they have different features
(some of which are locked into the specific operator - although recently
I've seen some chinks of interoperability between different Abellio
franchises).

It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such as
railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier. Maybe once
re-nationalisation is complete, I'll set up fatcontroller@perry.uk

The way my Spark is set up at the moment it filters all emails with PDF
attachments, sent to one of my 'extra' Gmail accounts.

But I'd much prefer the TOCs used 21st Century delivery methods.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sotfh6$9no$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:48:22 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> My oldest Gmail account goes back to googlemail days as well. But
>>the oldest email in the account is dated 2007, so not as old as yours.
>
>As I was with Demon[1] then I had no need of gmail at the time, I could
>have as many mailboxes as I wanted. I still only use gmail as a source
>of throwaway addresses to log into pub wifi and similar

It's normally the case that Google locks their users into having Gmail
accounts for Android phones so comprehensively it's not worth the effort
to try to resist the borg.

For example when submitting photos to Google Maps, or giving restaurant
reviews. At least they contact you pretty much in-app, rather than
emailing you a PDF to fill in and return.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:11:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <57rrqgp2qelb6cfe8sjj3otebr3aeikhen@4ax.com>, at 11:00:46 on
>Mon, 6 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>>>>very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>>>>convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>>>>change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>
>>>>I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>>>well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>>>inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>>>specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>>>>through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>
>>>Emailing pdfs is also very clunky - why can't they push the tickets to
>>>the booking app, in the same way Google Play pushes new apps to your
>>>phone?
>>
>>As I have said at least twice this is exactly what does happen, with
>>GA at least. Buy a ticket from the app or on the web and they just
>>appear in the app ready for use.
>
>I'll give it another go when I have some time. But I can absolutely
>assure you that the other day when I tried this, the options the GA
>website gave for a selection of mystery purchases did not all include a
>pdf option, let alone a deliver-to-app version.
>
>As far as I could see they were also significantly averse to e-ticketing
>south of Tottenham Hale. Is that some issue with the barriers at
>Liverpool St, or some conflict with the Oyster zoning?
>
>Perhaps you could name a station pair where you know it to work (I'm not
>claiming it's never available, but GA's ticketing is very inconsistent,
>hence probably why there's been three different and incompatible lists
>at large as to what to expect to work, or not).

It worked for Bishop's Stortford to Liverpool St. just fine.

Note that in my earlier replies I never claimed you were offered the
option to have an mTicket. Just that if you select pdf you seem to get
a single ticket than can be used as a pdf (e.g. printed) and also
apears in 'My Tickets' on the GA app.

In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>> might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>> hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>> this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>
>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>> £100 fine.
>>>
>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>> the car.
>>
>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>
>If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if the
>TVM is working or not.

Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.

But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.

With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.

What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
"sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
later).
--
Roland Perry

On 10/12/2021 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sotp1a$epk$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:30:33 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>> On 09/12/2021 17:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec
>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>>>>> district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was
>>>>>>> a "coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th
>>>>>>> Century,  but a further separation in more recent years.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>>>>> based  in Manchester.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>>>>> Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>>>>> affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>>>>> couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them
>>>>>> out, a regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new
>>>>>> organisation.
>>>>
>>>>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer
>>>>>> Affairs programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>>>>> programme.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly
>>>> every  day, and this sequence of events played out.
>
>>>  I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually
>>> take  much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't
>>> work on  that episode.
>>
>> Off-topic even for us, but do you know how the digital clock behind the
>> Nationwide presenters was operated?  It always showed the right time
>> but, in years of careful watching, I never saw its Solari style digits
>> flip over to the next minute on-screen, which struck me as curious.
>> flip digits as [obrail] Solari board
>
> A school-friend of mine worked for BBC engineering, and was "in charge
> of digital clocks", so I might ask him. His pride and joy was the Ceefax
> clock, which was locked to Rugby (and completely custom built).
>
> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more detail to
> see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid geeks has a
> digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent TVs, one on
> Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two seconds apart.

One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add in he
digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going to get
noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.

Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 09/12/2021 18:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sotdh2$r3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:14:10 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized
>>>>>>>>>> screen, so
>>>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble
>>>>>>>>>> web-mail, and
>>>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>>>> dropped up  [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly
>>>>>>>> rated. But MRD  applies I suppose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>>>> on  required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>>>> two,  but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>>>> a  personal context.
>>>>
>>>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>>>
>>> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
>>> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
>>> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
>>> SMS.
>>>
>>>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>>>> traffic",  and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>>>> scores of  active folders".
>>>
>>>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>>>> Unless  of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>>>> Hands up  everyone who has one of these.
>>>>
>>>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>>>> better solutions available.
>>>
>>> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>>>
>>> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
>>> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
>>> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
>>> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
>>> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
>>> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
>>> Teams calls).
>>>
>>> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
>>> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
>>> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
>>> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>>>
>>> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
>>> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
>>> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
>>> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
>>> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.
>>
>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email
>> existence
>> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having
>> heavy
>> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>
> I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me. My phone would be
> pinging about once a minute.

Turn the ping off then.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 09/12/2021 18:46, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sotfku$9no$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:50:22 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>  I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email
>>> existence  on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad.
>>> However, an  iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in,
>>> and to compose  replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my
>>> multiple subfolder  mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access
>>> them if I need to. I can  also see multiple private email accounts.
>>> You are not special having heavy  email traffic, mine’s not trivial
>>> either.
>>
>> I get the impression what Roland really needs is a decent pair of
>> glasses.
>
> A decent pair of glasses doesn't fix a sub-optimal user interface. And
> Can I remind you that my main email screen is approx 100 lines by 120
> columns (or if a document, two full pages of A4 at once), and no amount
> of visiting the optician is going to get that to fit on a phone.

And you need that for every single email you ever receive? Even if it
only a qr code to open a ticket barrier.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 09/12/2021 19:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>> multiple accounts.
>
>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about
>>> a dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>
>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>
> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
> the number of TOCs I might use).

You don't need individual accounts for each TOC, it is possible to use
the same one for different companies to use.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 09/12/2021 19:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>  If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>
>>>  Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute
>>> using their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on
>>> pain of a £100 fine.
>>
>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out
>> of the car.
>
> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.

Doesn't stop you going back to the car to get out f the rain or even
sheltering under the station canopy while you order the ticket. No need
to stand in the rain.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
..
>
> Youngsters today can barely comprehend understanding both hardware and
> software at the same time, let alone being that kind of system
> integrator.

That’s another assertion that is plain inaccurate. There’s a huge number of
young people that work with RPis, Arduino etc. Granted most fall by the
wayside as time goes on, but some go on to professional engineering. I work
at both the software and hardware level in addition to system architecture,
as do many other people I know. People who work with FPGAs are probably the
closest in the modern world to your days of fiddling with disk drive
controllers. In the days when you were fixing disk drive controllers I was
fixing mini computers at chip level, it’s what we did in those days. We
probably had elderly engineers grumbling that integrated circuits took away
all the understanding of building circuits out of a couple of transistors
and a diode, and another bunch moaning that valves were much better.

On 09/12/2021 20:30, Certes wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 17:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>>>> district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
>>>>>> "coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th
>>>>>> Century, but a further separation in more recent years.
>>>
>>>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>>>> based  in Manchester.
>>>
>>>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>>>> Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>>>> affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>>>> couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them out,
>>>>> a regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new organisation.
>>>
>>>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer
>>>>> Affairs programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>>>
>>>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>>>> programme.
>>>
>>> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly every
>>> day, and this sequence of events played out.
>>
>> I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually take
>> much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't work
>> on that episode.
>
> Off-topic even for us, but do you know how the digital clock behind the
> Nationwide presenters was operated?  It always showed the right time
> but, in years of careful watching, I never saw its Solari style digits
> flip over to the next minute on-screen, which struck me as curious.
> flip digits as [obrail] Solari board

To be honest I don't remember it all, it may have been added later,
after I left the BBC. There were no clocks in shot as I recall and
analogue clocks in the control room.

The last few minutes of <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWCBSu1Qzpc>
gives a flavour of the programme as I knew it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <soknoi$atl$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:38 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <soer6a$iu7$4@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:22 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>>>>> were invented?
>>>>
>>>> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
>>>> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
>>>> expressly for that purpose.
>>>
>>> They still exist in many places, including Paddington,
>>
>> Even on the Bakerloo Line?
>>
>>> Reading and Bristol Temple Meads.
>>
>> I suppose Reading is partly TfL these days.
>>
>> ps I've actually given up wondering when the Elizabeth Line will open.
>
>Obviously, the Reading part is already open. The central London section is
>currently expected to open next spring, but through services from the west
>will be later.
>
>I think it's physically complete, with the software almost ready, and now
>it's a case of rehearsing lots of operational scenarios (ie, dealing with
>various different problems, faults, evacuations, etc) and bedding down the
>trial operations. Some of the NR stations are still incomplete, but that
>won't delay the opening.
>
>Latest update: https://youtu.be/WXZ2BEthYEc

I made a special effort to be on the first [public] Thameslink train
through the core. They were handing out commemorate cup-cakes, although
something less perishable might have been welcome.

If there's an equivalent train through the Crossrail Core, I'll probably
try to be there. But it's far less clear if that milestone should be
Paddington-Abbey_Wood, or a service that's through from further west.
--
Roland Perry

On 09/12/2021 21:32, Tweed wrote:
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>
>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>
>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>
>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>
>

That charges you a fee to use. I use the National Rail app but that
hands you off to the relevant TOC to actually buy the ticket. Not caused
me any significant problems over the years but then I haven't ventured
by rail into the black hole of the Ely Triangle since about 1971.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ukp4rg9vb6s0teemqs6966pemgmr9i07ub@4ax.com>, at 20:38:24 on
> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>
>>>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>
>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>
>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>
>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>
> The different apps are required because they have different features
> (some of which are locked into the specific operator - although recently
> I've seen some chinks of interoperability between different Abellio
> franchises).
>
> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such as
> railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
> ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.

Why?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.