Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spaiki$uea$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:01:06 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp7uc4$nkk$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:03:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more
>>>>>>>> detail to see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid
>>>>>>>> geeks has a digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent
>>>>>>>> TVs, one on Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two
>>>>>>>> seconds apart.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add in he
>>>>>>> digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going to get
>>>>>>> noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't superficially explain why the terrestrial version is lagging
>>>>>> the satellite (although the explanation has to be the terrestrial
>>>>>> transmitter is getting a satellite feed, and is adding in a decode/
>>>>>> recode delay). It's about two seconds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are they the same model of TV/decoder? Do they have a PVR function that
>>>>> might be intercepting the signal before displaying it? I’m not familiar
>>>>> with digital TV or audio broadcasting but I do just about enough about
>>>>> media streaming to be dangerous.
>>>>
>>>> Let’s try that again: I do know just about enough about media streaming to
>>>> be dangerous.
>>>
>>> My impression is that the TV programme has to be explicitly
>>> de-multiplexed from the satellite receiver at the relay station, and
>>> then re-multiplexed with other channels before terrestrial transmission.
>>> Hence the delay of about two seconds.
>>
>> Nope. In the UK multiplexes are assembled centrally to allow for the gains
>> you get from statistical multiplexing and the cost of a decent on the fly
>> compressor. Sat feeds to far flung transmitter stations are from a
>> different satellite feed (and a different satellite position I think) to
>> the normal domestic ones and are the fully assembled multiplex. Some of the
>> emergency stations erected in the wake of the Billsdale main transmitter
>> fire are being fed this way.
>
> OK, so we have two distribution chains:
>
> Studio to FreeSat to home &
> Studio to (speculated via a proprietary satellite) to terrestrial
> transmitter, to home.
>
> And the latter takes two seconds longer. Why?
>
> I'm sticking my neck out that studio to landline to terrestrial
> transmitter to home, would normally be expected to be faster, rather
> than slower, than going via satellite.

We have:
Studio to central statistical multiplexing (SM) location - fibre landline
SM to most terrestrial transmitters. - fibre landline
SM to uplink station to Astra domestic broadcast satellites
SM to uplink station to satellite to terrestrial transmitter

The last one is intended only for emergency use.

It’s unlikely that the terrestrial transmitter serving Ely is being
satellite fed.

The delay for a single hop (up and back down) to a geostationary satellite
is only if the order of 260 milliseconds, so that doesn’t account for the
delays you observe.

Differences in decoder performance between receivers are likely to account
for a chunk of your observed offsets, as are differences in the
distribution chains, including error correction etc.

Although the BBC likes to claim platform neutrality between satellite and
terrestrial in terms of picture quality, there are fewer bandwidth
constraints on satellite. So the signals might require less processing by
the SM for the satellite, and might thus emerge out the other end that bit
quicker.

In message <hj1krgd8kf50t90sl47iqfnmh6r5444u47@4ax.com>, at 15:16:27 on
Wed, 15 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:14:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <spcpbp$qeu$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:08:09 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spcfdt$kum$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:37 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ul44rgh3pooqqimstcdg7bt0tv3npqfi12@4ax.com>, at 14:46:17 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gmail (on my phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both
>>>>>>> of them support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on
>>>>>>> Google Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and
>>>>>>> IMAP, and can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has
>>>>>>> a few features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the
>>>>>>> ability to schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them
>>>>>>> look like the killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A killer feature could be along the lines of "how can it show me a
>>>>>> display with a hundred or so waiting emails to pick from, on such a
>>>>>> small screen"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Use the search function?
>>>>
>>>> That only works if you know who has sent you an email, what the subject
>>>> might be, and so on. Even then I prefer to see them all so I can eyeball
>>>> the ones which need attention first, rather than doing a dozen
>>>> sequential speculative searches once an hour.
>>>
>>>Wait, wait, come back here with those goalposts!!
>>>
>>>I thought we were talking about standing in a rain-swept car park, trying
>>>to find the email containing the pdf you’ve just been sent after buying
>>>tickets through a TOC app, having found the ticket office closed and the
>>>TVM broken?
>>>
>>>So you know exactly what you're looking for, no need to prioritise other
>>>emails in that moment, or searching hourly…
>>
>>The general case is having all emails delivered to the phone, to be
>>somehow prioritised.
>>
>>The specific use-case is being expected to set up special email accounts
>>to receive PDF tickets on a phone. When the train company really ought
>>to be smarter than that.
>
>You are simply unable to accept that you're the one stuck in the last
>century.

The people stuck in the last century are the TOCs who apparently can't
be bothered to push tickets to their in-app wallets.

>Doing emails on the phone has been normal practice for many years, and
>that includes viewing PDFs without throwing a hissy fit.

Doing some emails, yes (I think I was first picking up emails via a
phone in about 1992, but using a PDA as the display).

The issue in this instance is that it doesn't scale, and however many
people say "use filters" or "do searches", they are just sticking
plasters over the underlying malaise.
--
Roland Perry

In message <vn1krgdr3pirmh8272gfju5ggtskkvgmiq@4ax.com>, at 15:17:50 on
Wed, 15 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:42:48 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <spb5g8$1vp$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:23:04 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Doesn't everyone carry a torch in their pocket these days?
>>>
>>>Roland probably doesn't know his phone includes a torch, or how to switch
>>>it on.
>>
>>I'm struggling to understand what possible motive you have for making
>>such crassly stupid postings.
>
>Well, do you know how to use the torch in your phone?

Obviously. My power pack also has a torch in it, if I have the power
pack about my person, which is unlikely if I've just popped to the
hospital for a clinic appointment, expecting the ticket machine not to
be in total darkness.
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2021 15:16, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spaiki$uea$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:01:06 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp7uc4$nkk$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:03:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more
>>>>>>>> detail to  see how far off they are, especially as one of their
>>>>>>>> Covid
>>>>>>>> geeks has a  digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two
>>>>>>>> adjacent
>>>>>>>> TVs, one on  Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two
>>>>>>>> seconds apart.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add
>>>>>>> in he
>>>>>>> digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going
>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>> noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't superficially explain why the terrestrial version is lagging
>>>>>> the satellite (although the explanation has to be the terrestrial
>>>>>> transmitter is getting a satellite feed, and is adding in a decode/
>>>>>> recode delay). It's about two seconds.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are they the same model of TV/decoder?  Do they have a PVR function
>>>>> that
>>>>> might be intercepting the signal before displaying it?  I’m not
>>>>> familiar
>>>>> with digital TV or audio broadcasting but I do just about enough about
>>>>> media streaming to be dangerous.
>>>>
>>>> Let’s try that again: I do know just about enough about media
>>>> streaming to
>>>> be dangerous.
>>>
>>> My impression is that the TV programme has to be explicitly
>>> de-multiplexed from the satellite receiver at the relay station, and
>>> then re-multiplexed with other channels before terrestrial transmission.
>>> Hence the delay of about two seconds.
>>
>> Nope. In the UK multiplexes are assembled centrally to allow for the
>> gains
>> you get from statistical multiplexing and the cost of a decent on the fly
>> compressor. Sat feeds to far flung transmitter stations are from a
>> different satellite feed (and a different satellite position I think) to
>> the normal domestic ones and are the fully assembled multiplex. Some
>> of the
>> emergency stations erected in the wake of the Billsdale main transmitter
>> fire are being fed this way.
>
> OK, so we have two distribution chains:
>
> Studio to FreeSat to home &
> Studio to (speculated via a proprietary satellite) to terrestrial
>  transmitter, to home.
>
> And the latter takes two seconds longer. Why?
>
> I'm sticking my neck out that studio to landline to terrestrial
> transmitter to home, would normally be expected to be faster, rather
> than slower, than going via satellite.

It's possible there's more digital buffering on the terrestrial signals
so that's not a safe assumption.

On 15/12/2021 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spavjo$qqm$10@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:33 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>> Tesco's latest scam, which I'm now wise to after being stung twice
>> [1], is
>> to have what looks like a meal deal or 3-for-£1.50 (etc) but which is
>> actually for clubcard holders only.
>
> Surely you have a Tesco Loyalty card on your phone?
>
> [I know they exist, because my wife went to Tesco six months ago and
> forgot to take her plastic card, so we spent an interesting fifteen
> minutes getting a work-alike pushed to her phone].
>
> As for the so-called "scam", those offers have quite distinctive yellow
> labelling.
Is that what they are? I don't go to Tesco often enough to be aware.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>>
>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>
>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>
> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
> nonsense installed.
>

WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:42:26 +0000
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
>>> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
>>> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
>>> later).
>>
>> Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.
>
> Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
> do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
> seat with first?
>
>

Back in the day is was so that an Inspector could board and check that the
driver wasn't pocketing the fares, or letting friends travel free.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>
>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>
>>> tickets2020@…
>>> tickets2021@…
>>> tickets2022@…
>>
>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>
>I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>the rest of us.

JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
up special email addresses for different online purchases?
--
Roland Perry

In message <spd21v$q1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:36:30 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 15/12/2021 15:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spcsv6$kn2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:41 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>
>>> I book my tickets on-line just before I leave home or the previous
>>>evening unless I'm using advance fares.
>>>
>>> Why can't Roland just order his tickets on an Android app so there's
>>>no problem transferring them to his phone?

>> Partly because it takes far longer than operating a TVM, but also
>>because I'm often not sure I want to travel until I get to the station.

>> Do you buy bus tickets, or tube fares in central London, in advance?

>It doesn't take far longer.

I reckon it must take at last five to ten times as long.

>I don't travel by bus.

Suddenly you are making yourself atypical.

>There no need because my local railway station is within walking
>distance.

And there are no places you ever need to go, where a bus would be more
convenient than a train?

>I don't travel to London.

And you can't put yourself in the shoes of someone who does?

--
Roland Perry

In message <spd2or$vc3$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spaiki$uea$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:01:06 on Tue, 14 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp7uc4$nkk$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:03:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more
>>>>>>>>> detail to see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid
>>>>>>>>> geeks has a digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent
>>>>>>>>> TVs, one on Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two
>>>>>>>>> seconds apart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add in he
>>>>>>>> digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going to get
>>>>>>>> noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't superficially explain why the terrestrial version is lagging
>>>>>>> the satellite (although the explanation has to be the terrestrial
>>>>>>> transmitter is getting a satellite feed, and is adding in a decode/
>>>>>>> recode delay). It's about two seconds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are they the same model of TV/decoder? Do they have a PVR function that
>>>>>> might be intercepting the signal before displaying it? I’m not
>>>>>>familiar
>>>>>> with digital TV or audio broadcasting but I do just about enough about
>>>>>> media streaming to be dangerous.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let’s try that again: I do know just about enough about media
>>>>>streaming to
>>>>> be dangerous.
>>>>
>>>> My impression is that the TV programme has to be explicitly
>>>> de-multiplexed from the satellite receiver at the relay station, and
>>>> then re-multiplexed with other channels before terrestrial transmission.
>>>> Hence the delay of about two seconds.
>>>
>>> Nope. In the UK multiplexes are assembled centrally to allow for the gains
>>> you get from statistical multiplexing and the cost of a decent on the fly
>>> compressor. Sat feeds to far flung transmitter stations are from a
>>> different satellite feed (and a different satellite position I think) to
>>> the normal domestic ones and are the fully assembled multiplex. Some of the
>>> emergency stations erected in the wake of the Billsdale main transmitter
>>> fire are being fed this way.
>>
>> OK, so we have two distribution chains:
>>
>> Studio to FreeSat to home &
>> Studio to (speculated via a proprietary satellite) to terrestrial
>> transmitter, to home.
>>
>> And the latter takes two seconds longer. Why?
>>
>> I'm sticking my neck out that studio to landline to terrestrial
>> transmitter to home, would normally be expected to be faster, rather
>> than slower, than going via satellite.
>
>We have:
>Studio to central statistical multiplexing (SM) location - fibre landline
>SM to most terrestrial transmitters. - fibre landline
>SM to uplink station to Astra domestic broadcast satellites
>SM to uplink station to satellite to terrestrial transmitter
>
>The last one is intended only for emergency use.
>
>It’s unlikely that the terrestrial transmitter serving Ely is being
>satellite fed.
>
>The delay for a single hop (up and back down) to a geostationary satellite
>is only if the order of 260 milliseconds, so that doesn’t account for the
>delays you observe.
>
>Differences in decoder performance between receivers are likely to account
>for a chunk of your observed offsets,

I've checked two completely different terrestrial receivers, and the
result is identical.

>as are differences in the
>distribution chains, including error correction etc.
>
>Although the BBC likes to claim platform neutrality between satellite and
>terrestrial in terms of picture quality, there are fewer bandwidth
>constraints on satellite. So the signals might require less processing by
>the SM for the satellite, and might thus emerge out the other end that bit
>quicker.

I'm going to file this under "work in progress" until I can check what
the two delays are compared to real time. And also maybe compare it with
iPlayer "live".

(I've always thought the obvious talk-back delay from studio to outside
broadcast correspondent, where they nod like a donkey for a couple of
seconds apparently to paper over the silence, before ever replying,
was something to do with satellite delays, but perhaps not, if it's
as little as a pair of half seconds.)
--
Roland Perry

In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>
>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>> nonsense installed.
>
>WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.

The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spd34h$vag$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 15/12/2021 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spavjo$qqm$10@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:33 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Tesco's latest scam, which I'm now wise to after being stung twice
>>>[1], is to have what looks like a meal deal or 3-for-£1.50 (etc) but
>>>which is actually for clubcard holders only.

>> Surely you have a Tesco Loyalty card on your phone?
>> [I know they exist, because my wife went to Tesco six months ago and
>>forgot to take her plastic card, so we spent an interesting fifteen
>>minutes getting a work-alike pushed to her phone].

>> As for the so-called "scam", those offers have quite distinctive
>>yellow labelling.

>Is that what they are? I don't go to Tesco often enough to be aware.

It's quite a new promotion I think. Less than a year. Although I think
they might have trialled it on a few items not in a combined deal,
slightly earlier.

<https://digitalcontent.api.tesco.com/v2/media/ghs-mktg/4085b51c-fc3d-
4ea0-9893-4a00a89e4beb/CCP-GHS-743x430-Tag.jpeg>
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2021 15:52, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not
>>>>>>> viable
>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific
>>>>>> emailM
>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not long.  But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>
>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>
>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>
>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>> the rest of us.
>
> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
I use a different email address for all organisations I deal with but it
all goes to the same mailbox. My ebay and paypal email addresses have
leaked all over the place. I regularly change the former and no longer
use the latter.

In message <sp7tbv$3b9$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:45:51 on Mon, 13 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp0kg0$seq$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:31:28 on Fri, 10 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sovdi3$o21$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:00 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> You’ll have noticed that I travelled by train through the Ely
>>>>>triangle in
>>>>> September. We bought tickets from one of the bank of working TVMs in
>>>>> Norwich and the tickets got us all the way to King’s Lynn,
>>>>> changing at Ely.
>>>>> Fortunately it wasn’t raining and we weren’t marooned in any
>>>>>car parks,
>>>>> though some of the folks we were with wanted to travel on a train that was
>>>>> cancelled. I guess we were the execptions that proved the rule.
>>>>
>>>> I'm very glad the TVMs worked for you, and the proof you've completely
>>>> lost the plot, which is about the unsatisfactory nature of e-ticketing
>>>> when TVMs you expected to use, aren't working.
>>>>
>>>> Or perhaps you do understand that, and are trying to create a
>>>> smokescreen?
>>>
>>> No, I was riffing on the fanciful idea (which you’ve snipped) that there
>>> might be an Ely triangle where modern technology fails to operate
>>> correctly.
>>
>> My technology, or that installed by the train companies?
>
>You’re our Ely correspondent and it’s mainly you who comments on the
>difficulties. How would you characterise it?

It's fortuitous stress-testing. Any product, whether it's a a phone or a
railway timetable, needs to be checked in difficult situations, as well
as perfect ones.

Just so happens that the mobile phone signal hereabouts has always been
bad, and the congestion through Ely with passenger trains from four TOCs
running to and from in seven directions (and that's counting LST and
Stansted as one) plus of course the busy freight movements, combined
with touch-and-go OHL and loads of level crossings, means it's very
sensitive to disruptions.

Add in bustitutions, on one or more of those flows, seemingly every
weekend, and the third most bashed bridge in the country, it's a perfect
place to observe how if things can go wrong, they will go wrong.
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2021 15:55, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spd21v$q1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:36:30 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 15/12/2021 15:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spcsv6$kn2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:09:41 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>
>>>> I book my tickets on-line just before I leave home or the previous
>>>> evening unless I'm using advance fares.
>>>>
>>>> Why can't Roland just order his tickets on an Android app so there's
>>>> no problem transferring them to his phone?
>
>>>  Partly because it takes far longer than operating a TVM, but also
>>> because I'm often not sure I want to travel until I get to the station.
>
>>>  Do you buy bus tickets, or tube fares in central London, in advance?
>
>> It doesn't take far longer.
>
> I reckon it must take at last five to ten times as long.
So you can purchase your tickets between five and ten seconds!
>
>> I don't travel by bus.
>
> Suddenly you are making yourself atypical.
>
>> There no need because my local railway station is within walking
>> distance.
>
> And there are no places you ever need to go, where a bus would be more
> convenient than a train?
Actually no. There are five railway stations in Cardiff close enough to
where I need to go and I use all four in Barry regularly. The journeys
are far quicker by rail and I enjoy travelling by train. Believe it or
not Cardiff does not have a bus station and I've no idea where the buses
from there to here leave from this week. I'm just grateful Cardiff
urinary authority cannot move the railway stations otherwise I'm sure
they would.

And I wouldn't have seen the new TfW Basils if I'd not used the train to
Cardiff a couple of weeks ago.
>
>> I don't travel to London.
>
> And you can't put yourself in the shoes of someone who does?
>
I've not been to London or lived near there for so long that I have no
idea how the ticketing works nor needed to. I just used a travel card
from Clandon or Woking railway stations.

In message <spd5cd$kgl$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:16 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 15/12/2021 15:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not
>>>>>>>>viable as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which
>>>>>>>>provide the legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a
>>>>>>>specific emailM
>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not long.  But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>
>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>
>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>
>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>> the rest of us.
>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think
>>set up special email addresses for different online purchases?

>I use a different email address for all organisations I deal with

What percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think do the
same?

>but it all goes to the same mailbox.

The whole point of different email address for railway tickets is so
they can go into a separate mailbox, which does scale when accessed on a
phone.

>My ebay and paypal email addresses have leaked all over the place. I
>regularly change the former and no longer use the latter.

My ebay and paypal email addresses didn't ever leak (in 15yrs). I wonder
what else we are doing differently?
--
Roland Perry

In message <spd69h$rb7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:48:48 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:

>>>>> I book my tickets on-line just before I leave home or the previous
>>>>>evening unless I'm using advance fares.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can't Roland just order his tickets on an Android app so
>>>>>there's no problem transferring them to his phone?
>>
>>>>  Partly because it takes far longer than operating a TVM, but also
>>>>because I'm often not sure I want to travel until I get to the station.
>>
>>>>  Do you buy bus tickets, or tube fares in central London, in
>>>>advance?
>>
>>> It doesn't take far longer.

>> I reckon it must take at last five to ten times as long.

>So you can purchase your tickets between five and ten seconds!

TVM tickets to one of the stations in the "popular destinations" list,
the majority of the time is printing the bit of card.

Apps seem to want your inside leg measurement before proceeding.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>
>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>
>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>
>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>> the rest of us.
>
> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
> up special email addresses for different online purchases?

Almost none - but they also don’t claim all the difficulties reading emails
on their phone like you do.

On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 12:01:54 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <zByLTvf68buhFAJP@perry.uk>, at 10:11:06 on Wed, 15 Dec 2021,
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>That's interesting. Are you saying that the QR code is a jpeg embedded
>>>>in the PDF? (There's still the open question why an e-ticket needs so
>>>>much information, when an 8-digit code should be sufficient to index the
>>>>database).
>>>
>>>Well, I don't know for certain, since I don't happen to have a railway
>>>e-ticket available to inspect.
>>
>>I could send you one, if you like. [And I have, don't use it all at
>>once, because it's out of date and needs a child railcard]
>
>Bounced.

firstname at surname dot co dot uk will reach me.

Mark

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spd34h$vag$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 15/12/2021 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spavjo$qqm$10@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:33 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Tesco's latest scam, which I'm now wise to after being stung twice
>>>> [1], is to have what looks like a meal deal or 3-for-£1.50 (etc) but
>>>> which is actually for clubcard holders only.
>
>>> Surely you have a Tesco Loyalty card on your phone?
>>> [I know they exist, because my wife went to Tesco six months ago and
>>> forgot to take her plastic card, so we spent an interesting fifteen
>>> minutes getting a work-alike pushed to her phone].
>
>>> As for the so-called "scam", those offers have quite distinctive
>>> yellow labelling.
>
>> Is that what they are? I don't go to Tesco often enough to be aware.
>
> It's quite a new promotion I think. Less than a year. Although I think
> they might have trialled it on a few items not in a combined deal,
> slightly earlier.
>
> <https://digitalcontent.api.tesco.com/v2/media/ghs-mktg/4085b51c-fc3d-
> 4ea0-9893-4a00a89e4beb/CCP-GHS-743x430-Tag.jpeg>

Of course it’s a scam. Applied to things where you don’t actually know the
true price off hand. Like a bottle of port I purchased. Mark as £15 and
then sell at £10 club card price. Clearly the £15 was made up to make
suckers think they are special and getting a bargain at £10. Ooh look - I
saved £5, aren’t Tesco really cheap.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spcfdu$kum$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:38 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>> I don't find the concept of 'email a pdf to be shown on my phone' to be in
>> any way unique to TOCs.
>
> I've not encountered it when buying from Screwfix,

No, you get emailed an 11-digit code and present that with ID to a human;
presumably if they did automated pick-up points you'd get a barcode.

> Amazon

Pick up from an Amazon Locker and you'll get emailed a barcode. Admittedly
not as a PDF but if they locker is in a not-spot that's more awkward!

> or AliExpress

Never heard of them 🤷🏼‍♂️

But presumably they deliver stuff to your house, in which case how would
showing a barcode on your phone be involved at all? Perhaps to prove you
were the person who ordered, but I’m really not aware of that being a
thing. And unless you expect GA to deliver a FLIRT to your door, not
comparable with rail tickets.

> to name but a few sites I buy from most frequently.
>

Theatre tickets, several things related to air travel currently (Covid
certificate, online health declaration, passenger locator form) all in pdf
format on my phone; tickets for activities while on holiday (eg boat trips,
coach trips, 4x4 trips, boat hire); walking tours, museum entry, farm park
tickets, MailRail!; travel tickets from CP and SBB (the latter an embedded
barcode rather pdf). At least one Swiss mountain railway. Wightlink
ferries. Fit note (sick note) from my GP.

Brompton bike hire works the other way around; you enter the emailed code
into the kiosk, it displays a QR code, you scan that with the App and the
locker door pops open!

> If you meant transport operators, not TfL or any of the station car park
> pirates, either.

Heathrow Airport parking. Bristol Airport parking emails an embedded
barcode.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spd2or$vc3$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spaiki$uea$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:01:06 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sp7uc4$nkk$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:03:00 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more
>>>>>>>>>> detail to see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid
>>>>>>>>>> geeks has a digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent
>>>>>>>>>> TVs, one on Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two
>>>>>>>>>> seconds apart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add in he
>>>>>>>>> digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going to get
>>>>>>>>> noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doesn't superficially explain why the terrestrial version is lagging
>>>>>>>> the satellite (although the explanation has to be the terrestrial
>>>>>>>> transmitter is getting a satellite feed, and is adding in a decode/
>>>>>>>> recode delay). It's about two seconds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are they the same model of TV/decoder? Do they have a PVR function that
>>>>>>> might be intercepting the signal before displaying it? I’m not
>>>>>>> familiar
>>>>>>> with digital TV or audio broadcasting but I do just about enough about
>>>>>>> media streaming to be dangerous.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let’s try that again: I do know just about enough about media
>>>>>> streaming to
>>>>>> be dangerous.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression is that the TV programme has to be explicitly
>>>>> de-multiplexed from the satellite receiver at the relay station, and
>>>>> then re-multiplexed with other channels before terrestrial transmission.
>>>>> Hence the delay of about two seconds.
>>>>
>>>> Nope. In the UK multiplexes are assembled centrally to allow for the gains
>>>> you get from statistical multiplexing and the cost of a decent on the fly
>>>> compressor. Sat feeds to far flung transmitter stations are from a
>>>> different satellite feed (and a different satellite position I think) to
>>>> the normal domestic ones and are the fully assembled multiplex. Some of the
>>>> emergency stations erected in the wake of the Billsdale main transmitter
>>>> fire are being fed this way.
>>>
>>> OK, so we have two distribution chains:
>>>
>>> Studio to FreeSat to home &
>>> Studio to (speculated via a proprietary satellite) to terrestrial
>>> transmitter, to home.
>>>
>>> And the latter takes two seconds longer. Why?
>>>
>>> I'm sticking my neck out that studio to landline to terrestrial
>>> transmitter to home, would normally be expected to be faster, rather
>>> than slower, than going via satellite.
>>
>> We have:
>> Studio to central statistical multiplexing (SM) location - fibre landline
>> SM to most terrestrial transmitters. - fibre landline
>> SM to uplink station to Astra domestic broadcast satellites
>> SM to uplink station to satellite to terrestrial transmitter
>>
>> The last one is intended only for emergency use.
>>
>> It’s unlikely that the terrestrial transmitter serving Ely is being
>> satellite fed.
>>
>> The delay for a single hop (up and back down) to a geostationary satellite
>> is only if the order of 260 milliseconds, so that doesn’t account for the
>> delays you observe.
>>
>> Differences in decoder performance between receivers are likely to account
>> for a chunk of your observed offsets,
>
> I've checked two completely different terrestrial receivers, and the
> result is identical.
>
>> as are differences in the
>> distribution chains, including error correction etc.
>>
>> Although the BBC likes to claim platform neutrality between satellite and
>> terrestrial in terms of picture quality, there are fewer bandwidth
>> constraints on satellite. So the signals might require less processing by
>> the SM for the satellite, and might thus emerge out the other end that bit
>> quicker.
>
> I'm going to file this under "work in progress" until I can check what
> the two delays are compared to real time. And also maybe compare it with
> iPlayer "live".
>
> (I've always thought the obvious talk-back delay from studio to outside
> broadcast correspondent, where they nod like a donkey for a couple of
> seconds apparently to paper over the silence, before ever replying,
> was something to do with satellite delays, but perhaps not, if it's
> as little as a pair of half seconds.)

iPlayer live is very delayed, multiple seconds. That’s probably something
to do with propagating the stream via relatively local content distribution
network caches. I remember in one of the recent football contests (Euros?).
My wife was watching it in the garden and next door on TV. When a goal was
scored you could hear the cheers from next door and then quite a while
later it could be seen on the iPad iPlayer stream.

There’s betting scams relying on transmission delays - observer at
racecourse/match on the phone to assistant at getting shop, where the TV
feed is coming in a few seconds later.

In message <spdbot$7o8$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:22:21 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>
>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>
>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>
>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>> the rest of us.
>>
>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>
>Almost none - but they also don’t claim all the difficulties reading emails
>on their phone like you do.

That's probably

(a) Because almost none opt to have train tickets sent to their phone.

(b) They might not be trying to cope with 50k emails a year on their
phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spdcmj$e3r$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:38:11 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>>> I don't find the concept of 'email a pdf to be shown on my phone' to be in
>>> any way unique to TOCs.
>>
>> I've not encountered it when buying from Screwfix,
>
>No, you get emailed an 11-digit code and present that with ID to a human;
>presumably if they did automated pick-up points you'd get a barcode.

I'm never asked for ID, and all they want is a verbal 4-last digits,
which you write down from the screen at the end of the order.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spdc4j$a5i$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:28:36 on Wed, 15 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spd34h$vag$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Wed, 15 Dec
>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 15/12/2021 15:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <spavjo$qqm$10@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:33 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Tesco's latest scam, which I'm now wise to after being stung twice
>>>>> [1], is to have what looks like a meal deal or 3-for-£1.50 (etc) but
>>>>> which is actually for clubcard holders only.
>>
>>>> Surely you have a Tesco Loyalty card on your phone?
>>>> [I know they exist, because my wife went to Tesco six months ago and
>>>> forgot to take her plastic card, so we spent an interesting fifteen
>>>> minutes getting a work-alike pushed to her phone].
>>
>>>> As for the so-called "scam", those offers have quite distinctive
>>>> yellow labelling.
>>
>>> Is that what they are? I don't go to Tesco often enough to be aware.
>>
>> It's quite a new promotion I think. Less than a year. Although I think
>> they might have trialled it on a few items not in a combined deal,
>> slightly earlier.
>>
>> <https://digitalcontent.api.tesco.com/v2/media/ghs-mktg/4085b51c-fc3d-
>> 4ea0-9893-4a00a89e4beb/CCP-GHS-743x430-Tag.jpeg>
>
>Of course it’s a scam. Applied to things where you don’t actually know the
>true price off hand. Like a bottle of port I purchased. Mark as £15 and
>then sell at £10 club card price. Clearly the £15 was made up to make
>suckers think they are special and getting a bargain at £10. Ooh look - I
>saved £5, aren’t Tesco really cheap.

All the things I've bought on the promotion were genuinely cheaper.

But that wasn't the scam referred to earlier - which I think was not
understanding from the price label that the discount was "cardholders
only".

In fact I've been caught out once, when the cashier forgot to ask me for
my Clubcard, and I forgot to offer it either. But the customer service
desk sorted it out as soon as I realised what had happened.
--
Roland Perry