Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>
> Who carries coins in 2021?!

I carry a few, specifically a pound coin to release a trolley at the
supermarket, and 20p coins so I can use the local public toilets if I’m out
for a walk.

But I have noticed an increasing number of people reverting to cash in the
local shops. (Although not at work at Huddersfield University, where all
the shops are card/phone payments only). But my local shop that does
clothing repairs and alterations only takes cash.

--
Jeremy Double

On 19/12/2021 04:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 20:37:15 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>>
>> Who carries coins in 2021?!
>>
> <raises hand>
> Supermarket trolleys.

Got a token on my keyring

> Small purchases.

tap the phone

> Emergency backup for plastic.

See above

> Change for people unable to use plastic.

Vanishingly small after 18 months of Covid.

The only time I've used a coin this year is to undo a screw designed to
be manipulated with a coin.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/12/2021 23:31, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spj9nk$nop$5@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:20 on Sat, 18 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Checking tickets on the door happens, or used to, on certain notorious
>>> 'last' trains in the gWr area (eg Bristol-Weston); one door open and
>>> tickets checked. Also the first Swansea-Cardiff, though that's mostly to
>>> discourage the clubbers from bringing fast food on board what later in the
>>> journey becomes a peak-hour commuter train. Both those depend hugely on who
>>> the crew are on any particular day, though.
>>
>> I remember getting on the first Ely-Peterborough GA, one Sunday
>> (they must have been starting some there after overnight stabling,
>> rather than running them all to/from Colchester like they do today),
>> and it was figuratively knee deep in litter from the previous night.
>>
>
> Having recently experienced this a couple of times, I can say it's
> generally nothing to do with the crew on that morning.
>
> Most likely it's a planned-but-irregular overnight where the train is
> supposed to be cleaned while outstabled, but for some reason, isn't. Or
> more irresponsibly, depending on the TOC and location, someone has decided
> that cleaning isn't necessary.
>

I can remember when travelling on SWRland it was common to find th
previous days newspapers lying around or even Friday's on Monday.

Ir was refreshing to move to ATWland to find only that day's newspapers,
if any, and to find litter pickers travelling on the trains.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spag4t$bbf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:37 on Tue, 14 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spa1qc$mf$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:04 on Tue, 14 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sp9l43$ok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:37:23 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>>>>>>>>> on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>>> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts from different sources, several of which are high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> volume), so my experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can wait until I get back. But I don't have any real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difficulty reading them when I do need to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compromise when the train company is insisting on using 1992
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver train tickets, when there are numerous far better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more modern ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TOCs could offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar
>>>>>>>>>>>> social media nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>>>>>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>>>>>>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>>>>>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>>>>>>>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>>>>>>>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>>>>>>>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>>>>>>>> about the underlying processes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>>>>>>>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>>>>>>>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>>>>>>>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>>>>>>>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>>>>>>>> as just handing over a bit of paper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to support)
>>>>>> as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in which case it
>>>>>> would require a facility to export to a different phone to properly
>>>>>> qualify.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well you are alone in that characterisation. At the very basic level, if
>>>>> you can screenshot the in-app ticket (or even photograph it with another
>>>>> phone) and the copy remains valid it is an e-ticket.
>>>>
>>>> *If* the copy remains valid. Some TOCs specifically exclude a screenshot
>>>> from being valid, and other transport operators (buses, I've got
>>>> insufficient experience with TOCs) watermark the in-app m-ticket at the
>>>> point of display, so that it's obvious (if not already) that it's not
>>>> just a static screenshot.
>>>>
>>> That’s exactly the point. If the copy remains valid it’s an e-ticket.
>>
>> No, sometimes a TOC will accept a copy of an m-ticket, sometimes they
>> won't [accept it at all].
>>
>> Think of it like paper tickets - how likely is it that a TOC would
>> accept a photocopy of one?
>>
>> On the other hand, they positively encourage people [various wording has
>> been quoted the last few days] to make copies of PDFs to show them. But
>> that doesn't mean every such PDF is either literally, or transformed
>> into by the copying process, an e-ticket.
>>
>> They might be content that an AP ticket with seat number on a specific
>> train, is sufficient proof someone is entitled to occupy that empty
>> seat, without the gripper having to go online and query a database.
>>
>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>> actual ticket.
>>
>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>
>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>
>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>> to find on an m-ticket?
>
> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode seems very
> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>
>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>
>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>> them.
>>
>> Evidence, please.
>
> Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
> ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
> gates and grippers.

On the relatively few times I’ve been on trains in the last couple of years
I can echo other posters’ experience that a significant number of other
passengers wave phones at grippers and gates. I can’t tell if what they
are displaying are PDFs, if that’s what’s important to you. In-app wallets
might contain, PDFs, of course.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2021 04:00, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 20:37:15 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>>>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>>>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>>>
>>> Who carries coins in 2021?!
>>>
>> <raises hand>
>> Supermarket trolleys.
>
> Got a token on my keyring

I carry £1 coins for that purpose.

>> Small purchases.
>
> tap the phone
>
>> Emergency backup for plastic.
>
> See above

Had to pay with the folding kind in a cafe yesterday after both card
machines refused to connect to the Internet.

>> Change for people unable to use plastic.
>
> Vanishingly small after 18 months of Covid.
>
> The only time I've used a coin this year is to undo a screw designed to
> be manipulated with a coin.

I carry 20ps for exactly that purpose. I’ve also come across a garage
airline that didn’t take plastic, though the one I usually use does (though
the user interface would exasperate Roland - if you do things exactly right
it’s fine; if you mistime pressing buttons and waving plastic it gets
extremely unhelpful).

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <splr0q$35j$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:31:38 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spkupm$8id$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:58 on Sat, 18 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> But we are where we are, and it seems very likely that TfW's brand new
>>>> app has one foot firmly in the m-ticket camp.
>>>
>>> I've just tried two purchases on the new TfW app,
>>
>> It has more than one foot, I expect.
>>
>>> stopping short of payment. Soham-Ely is offered as e-ticket, a choice
>>> of emailed PDF or emailed Apple/Google Wallet ticket.
>>
>> The GA app offers it as an emailed PDF (but one of my gripes is they
>> failed to send one of those emails,
>
>Following this thread, I'm tempted to believe they have your email address
>blacklisted and deliberately don't send you valid tickets which you've
>purchased, just to increase their Usenet profile.

Only if they un-black-listed it the following day when successfully
delivering the next PDF purchase I made.

>> but they *have* later sent others);

Like I said above.

>>no option for an in-wallet ticket,
>
>I was offered both by the GA app for that journey.

Can you elucidate what you mean by "offered"? They later told me when I
opted for PDf, that I could add it to my wallet (although I can see no
mechanism for doing so, that's another support-ticket I have open with
them). It wasn't a separate option alongside ITSO and PDF (and I note
that paper TOD isn't offered).

The wording is as follows:

o E-ticket. We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or
print it.

o Smartcard load from the app - you can load onto your Smartcard with
just a tap.

I assume they forgot to say "as long as your phone is NFC" (and like the
next one, as long as you have our Smartcard on you).

o Smartcard collect at station - your ticket will be ready for
collection at the station 4hrs from now.

And there was me wanting to travel in 4 minutes. Oh darn.
--
Roland Perry

In message <28ctrgt9u06qhp5leopokklk5kn6obdu65@4ax.com>, at 04:24:36 on
Sun, 19 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>>I've not encountered it when buying from Screwfix, Amazon or AliExpress
>>>>to name but a few sites I buy from most frequently.
>>>>
>>>I get Screwfix invoices e-mailed as PDFs, (usually before I am out of
>>>the shop door).
>>
>>But if you order in advance, does the shop require you to show it on
>>your phone, before handing over the goods?
>>
>Stating last four digits and surname generally sufficed during the
>"only one person in the shop" period

I've only quoted the last-four-digits for ages (long before Covid) and
then they ask *me* if I'm Mr Perry.

>but I suspect if I had gone to collect something expensive then they
>might have been a bit more stringent.

Perhaps that depends on the definition of "expensive". My average order
is about £25.

>Now that I actually get to the counter

They didn't let you near the counter during Covid? here they did,
although with only two customers in the store at a time. The main
restriction was withdrawing the Argos-style order-in-store, and going
click-and-collect only.

>I usually hold the phone out anyway as a screen and mask tend to get in
>the way of conversation; at other collection places for online-order
>packages this is usual so that the barcode/ QR code can be scanned.

What other places? The main other on I've done click-and-collect is
Tesco, and all they've wanted is my name (yes, that does seem a little
informal, but then they have a very short [~1hr?] collection window,
rather than Screwfix's 21 days).

<Thread convergence> being divisible by seven, I presume that's calendar
days, not working days.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spn7ch$nbf$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:08:49 on Sun, 19 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is
>>>>>>>>>>not viable
>>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a
>>>>>>>>>specific email
>>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>>
>>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>>> them.
>>>
>>> Evidence, please.
>>
>> Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
>> ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
>> gates and grippers.
>
>On the relatively few times I’ve been on trains in the last couple of years
>I can echo other posters’ experience that a significant number of other
>passengers wave phones at grippers and gates. I can’t tell if what they
>are displaying are PDFs, if that’s what’s important to you. In-app wallets
>might contain, PDFs, of course.

Of a train with perhaps 200 people on it, how many? And are these
largely inner suburban, outer suburban, or intercity-style trains?
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:11:27 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <spl2gk$1n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:24 on Sat, 18 Dec
>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spj9nl$nop$6@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:21 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
>>>>> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
>>>>> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
>>>>> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>>>>
>>>> I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
>>>> number, to determine why your transaction failed.
>>>>
>>>> I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking on Usenet.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you missed the part where I said I *had* contacted them.
>>>
>>> Tick Tock, they are now five [*working* - I didn't notice that the first
>>> time] days into the 10 days they claim to answer 90% of enquiries. Feels
>>> like much longer.
>>>
>>> And of course, they are sending replies to the ticketing email address
>>> on my mobile phone, which I don't usually look at unless I'm expecting a
>>> ticket that I just bought to be delivered. But I did check again just
>>> now.
>>
>>Why don't you also get those emails on your PC?
>
>Because they are sent to the email address I set up specially (by
>popular demand) for my phone.

How long would it take you to add it to your PC email client accounts list?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spavjo$qqm$10@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:33 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>> Tesco's latest scam, which I'm now wise to after being stung twice [1], is
>> to have what looks like a meal deal or 3-for-£1.50 (etc) but which is
>> actually for clubcard holders only.
>
> Surely you have a Tesco Loyalty card on your phone?
>
> [I know they exist, because my wife went to Tesco six months ago and
> forgot to take her plastic card, so we spent an interesting fifteen
> minutes getting a work-alike pushed to her phone].
>

No, and I don't have one in my wallet either.

I used to have a clubcard, when I lived in the city centre and Tesco was my
nearest supermarket. I rarely remembered to use the vouchers before they
expired.

Then one holiday when I cleared stuff I wouldn't need abroad out of my
wallet, the clubcard, nectar card etc never went back in. Bite Card is the
only one I carry and that mostly gets used for keeping hotel room power on
when we need both keys…

There are only three occasions I use Tesco at the moment: when it's the
nearest place to buy a ready meal at work (Bristol Parkway/Temple Meads);
during the limited time-periods (basically Sunday evenings) when my nearby
24-hour supermarket is closed but the little Tesco is open; and when I've
been doing other stuff close to that little Tesco.

> As for the so-called "scam", those offers have quite distinctive yellow
> labelling.

As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc) and the
"for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spavjo$qqm$10@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:33 on Tue, 14 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Tesco's latest scam, which I'm now wise to after being stung twice [1], is
>>> to have what looks like a meal deal or 3-for-£1.50 (etc) but which is
>>> actually for clubcard holders only.
>>
>> Surely you have a Tesco Loyalty card on your phone?
>>
>> [I know they exist, because my wife went to Tesco six months ago and
>> forgot to take her plastic card, so we spent an interesting fifteen
>> minutes getting a work-alike pushed to her phone].
>>
>
> No, and I don't have one in my wallet either.
>
> I used to have a clubcard, when I lived in the city centre and Tesco was my
> nearest supermarket. I rarely remembered to use the vouchers before they
> expired.
>
> Then one holiday when I cleared stuff I wouldn't need abroad out of my
> wallet, the clubcard, nectar card etc never went back in. Bite Card is the
> only one I carry and that mostly gets used for keeping hotel room power on
> when we need both keys…
>
> There are only three occasions I use Tesco at the moment: when it's the
> nearest place to buy a ready meal at work (Bristol Parkway/Temple Meads);
> during the limited time-periods (basically Sunday evenings) when my nearby
> 24-hour supermarket is closed but the little Tesco is open; and when I've
> been doing other stuff close to that little Tesco.
>
>> As for the so-called "scam", those offers have quite distinctive yellow
>> labelling.
>
> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc) and the
> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
£10 in Morrisons.

In message <splr0q$35j$2@dont-email.me>, at 23:31:38 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spj9nk$nop$5@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:20 on Sat, 18 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Checking tickets on the door happens, or used to, on certain notorious
>>> 'last' trains in the gWr area (eg Bristol-Weston); one door open and
>>> tickets checked. Also the first Swansea-Cardiff, though that's mostly to
>>> discourage the clubbers from bringing fast food on board what later in the
>>> journey becomes a peak-hour commuter train. Both those depend hugely on who
>>> the crew are on any particular day, though.
>>
>> I remember getting on the first Ely-Peterborough GA, one Sunday
>> (they must have been starting some there after overnight stabling,
>> rather than running them all to/from Colchester like they do today),
>> and it was figuratively knee deep in litter from the previous night.
>
>Having recently experienced this a couple of times, I can say it's
>generally nothing to do with the crew on that morning.

I'd have thought the crew the previous evening should at least do a
first-pass litter sweep (off the tables for example).

That's something MML always used to be good at, coming through the train
with bin-bags ahead of arrival at St Pancras.

>Most likely it's a planned-but-irregular overnight where the train is
>supposed to be cleaned while outstabled, but for some reason, isn't. Or
>more irresponsibly, depending on the TOC and location, someone has decided
>that cleaning isn't necessary.
>
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

--
Roland Perry

In message <spnfne$fdo$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:31:10 on Sun, 19 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
>Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc) and the
>"for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.

Just for you, yesterday in Tesco:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/clubcard-price.jpg

--
Roland Perry

In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc) and the
>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>
>Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>£10 in Morrisons.

That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm told
it's coming up).

Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".

Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.

Asda £11 ("was £15")

But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")

You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.

ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.

What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest of
the year.
--
Roland Perry

On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>> and the
>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>
>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>> £10 in Morrisons.
>
> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm told
> it's coming up).
>
> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>
> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>
> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>
> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>
> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>
> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>
> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest of
> the year.

I don't agree.

Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price in
Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
>>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>>> and the
>>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>>
>>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>>> £10 in Morrisons.
>>
>> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm told
>> it's coming up).
>>
>> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>>
>> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>>
>> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>>
>> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>>
>> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>>
>> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>>
>> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
>> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest of
>> the year.
>
> I don't agree.
>
> Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price in
> Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.
>

Thank you - you at least see the point.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnfne$fdo$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:31:10 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc) and the
>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>
> Just for you, yesterday in Tesco:
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/clubcard-price.jpg
>

Less obvious at a glance on an inch-high shelf label; especially coupled
with the expectation, brought from other shops, that the deals concerned
(not just a simple 'clubcard price' for the item as in your example) will
be available to all customers.

Anna Noyd-Dryvet

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <splr0q$35j$2@dont-email.me>, at 23:31:38 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spj9nk$nop$5@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:20 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Checking tickets on the door happens, or used to, on certain notorious
>>>> 'last' trains in the gWr area (eg Bristol-Weston); one door open and
>>>> tickets checked. Also the first Swansea-Cardiff, though that's mostly to
>>>> discourage the clubbers from bringing fast food on board what later in the
>>>> journey becomes a peak-hour commuter train. Both those depend hugely on who
>>>> the crew are on any particular day, though.
>>>
>>> I remember getting on the first Ely-Peterborough GA, one Sunday
>>> (they must have been starting some there after overnight stabling,
>>> rather than running them all to/from Colchester like they do today),
>>> and it was figuratively knee deep in litter from the previous night.
>>
>> Having recently experienced this a couple of times, I can say it's
>> generally nothing to do with the crew on that morning.
>
> I'd have thought the crew the previous evening should at least do a
> first-pass litter sweep (off the tables for example).
>

Practice undoubtedly varies by TOC; gWr have dedicated cleaning teams to do
overnight cleaning at locations where trains stable routinely.

> That's something MML always used to be good at, coming through the train
> with bin-bags ahead of arrival at St Pancras.
>

Again, varies by TOC; every gWr IET arrival at Paddington is met by a
cleaning team.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <splr0q$35j$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:31:38 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spkupm$8id$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:58 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> But we are where we are, and it seems very likely that TfW's brand new
>>>>> app has one foot firmly in the m-ticket camp.
>>>>
>>>> I've just tried two purchases on the new TfW app,
>>>
>>> It has more than one foot, I expect.
>>>
>>>> stopping short of payment. Soham-Ely is offered as e-ticket, a choice
>>>> of emailed PDF or emailed Apple/Google Wallet ticket.
>>>
>>> The GA app offers it as an emailed PDF (but one of my gripes is they
>>> failed to send one of those emails,
>>
>> Following this thread, I'm tempted to believe they have your email address
>> blacklisted and deliberately don't send you valid tickets which you've
>> purchased, just to increase their Usenet profile.
>
> Only if they un-black-listed it the following day when successfully
> delivering the next PDF purchase I made.
>
>>> but they *have* later sent others);
>
> Like I said above.
>
>>> no option for an in-wallet ticket,
>>
>> I was offered both by the GA app for that journey.
>
> Can you elucidate what you mean by "offered"? They later told me when I
> opted for PDf, that I could add it to my wallet (although I can see no
> mechanism for doing so, that's another support-ticket I have open with
> them). It wasn't a separate option alongside ITSO and PDF (and I note
> that paper TOD isn't offered).
>
> The wording is as follows:
>
> o E-ticket. We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or
> print it.
>
> o Smartcard load from the app - you can load onto your Smartcard with
> just a tap.
>
> I assume they forgot to say "as long as your phone is NFC" (and like the
> next one, as long as you have our Smartcard on you).
>
> o Smartcard collect at station - your ticket will be ready for
> collection at the station 4hrs from now.
>
> And there was me wanting to travel in 4 minutes. Oh darn.

<https://twitter.com/annanoyddryver/status/1472613871152160771?s=21>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm sure in
>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>> and the
>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>
>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>> £10 in Morrisons.
>
> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm told
> it's coming up).
>
> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>
> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>
> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>
> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>
> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>
> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>
> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest of
> the year.

Tesco's normal price was £15 on the two occasions I can find (2020):
<https://web.archive.org/web/20200804000414/https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/257356692>
<https://web.archive.org/web/20201029105715/https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/257356692>

The price elsewhere seems to yo-yo between about £10 normally and £15
for a short period just before a "reduction":
<https://mysupermarketcompare.co.uk/product/taylors-lbv-port-75cl/>
<https://www.trolley.co.uk/product/taylors-late-bottled-vintage-port/AZC061>

I'm assuming this is 75 cl LBV; other Taylor's ports are available at
different prices.

In message <splgpr$2tl$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>
>Who carries coins in 2021?!

I have a few, for supermarket trolleys etc. Or does your supermarket
trolley park have barcode readers?

It also seems a bit of an overkill to use a credit card via phone to pay
for 50p of off-peak parking at the station.
--
Roland Perry

In message <aseurgdied8c2mcvba76iv5lplotq1k8kq@4ax.com>, at 14:03:21 on
Sun, 19 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:11:27 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <spl2gk$1n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:24 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spj9nl$nop$6@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:21 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
>>>>>> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
>>>>>> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
>>>>>> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
>>>>> number, to determine why your transaction failed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking
>>>>>on Usenet.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you missed the part where I said I *had* contacted them.
>>>>
>>>> Tick Tock, they are now five [*working* - I didn't notice that the first
>>>> time] days into the 10 days they claim to answer 90% of enquiries. Feels
>>>> like much longer.
>>>>
>>>> And of course, they are sending replies to the ticketing email address
>>>> on my mobile phone, which I don't usually look at unless I'm expecting a
>>>> ticket that I just bought to be delivered. But I did check again just
>>>> now.
>>>
>>>Why don't you also get those emails on your PC?
>>
>>Because they are sent to the email address I set up specially (by
>>popular demand) for my phone.
>
>How long would it take you to add it to your PC email client accounts list?

Quite a while, because currently it only picks up classic email (to read
offline), not webmail like gmail being turned into offline mail.

I know it's possible, but hasn't been necessary so far.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <aseurgdied8c2mcvba76iv5lplotq1k8kq@4ax.com>, at 14:03:21 on
> Sun, 19 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:11:27 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <spl2gk$1n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:24 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spj9nl$nop$6@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:21 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
>>>>>>> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
>>>>>>> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
>>>>>>> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
>>>>>> number, to determine why your transaction failed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking
>>>>>> on Usenet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you missed the part where I said I *had* contacted them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tick Tock, they are now five [*working* - I didn't notice that the first
>>>>> time] days into the 10 days they claim to answer 90% of enquiries. Feels
>>>>> like much longer.
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course, they are sending replies to the ticketing email address
>>>>> on my mobile phone, which I don't usually look at unless I'm expecting a
>>>>> ticket that I just bought to be delivered. But I did check again just
>>>>> now.
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you also get those emails on your PC?
>>>
>>> Because they are sent to the email address I set up specially (by
>>> popular demand) for my phone.
>>
>> How long would it take you to add it to your PC email client accounts list?
>
> Quite a while, because currently it only picks up classic email (to read
> offline), not webmail like gmail being turned into offline mail.
>
> I know it's possible, but hasn't been necessary so far.

Why do you think gmail is webmail? I have a gmail account that I’ve never
read by webmail. Gmail supports IMAP.

In message <spmsgf$mqa$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:03:11 on Sun, 19 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> Change for people unable to use plastic.
>
>Vanishingly small after 18 months of Covid.

Get more than a few miles outside you major metro areas, and ask again!
--
Roland Perry