On 20/12/2021 14:45, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spq21s$2mg$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:12 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 20/12/2021 11:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spjh5m$pgb$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:18 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>>>>>> could  be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>>>>>> wallet.  Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TfW can and do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
>>>>> claimed was only available TOD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's
>>>>> rotted
>>>>> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>>>>>
>>>>> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with
>>>>> our new
>>>>> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
>>>>> register a new account to buy tickets."
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
>>>>
>>>> You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
>>>> about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
>>>> claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.
>
>>>  I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
>>> others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).
>
>>>  When I posted the above I wasn't aware they had replaced it with a
>>> new  one. (Without pushing the new one to me, which would be polite,
>>> and what  many other app vendors do automatically).
>>
>> They cannot push the new app to their passengers as the old one needs
>> to remain active until existing tickets expire.
>
> Why can't the new app be backwards compatible with the data stored on
> the phone by the old app?

They were using The Trainline to fulfil ticket purchase. I suspect this
has changed as I don't recall seeing that announcement on my recent
purchases although I may well not have noticed.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnosv$fbc$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:07:43 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <splr0q$35j$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:31:38 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spkupm$8id$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:58 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But we are where we are, and it seems very likely that TfW's brand new
>>>>>>> app has one foot firmly in the m-ticket camp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've just tried two purchases on the new TfW app,
>>>>>> stopping short of payment. Soham-Ely is offered as e-ticket, a choice
>>>>>> of emailed PDF or emailed Apple/Google Wallet ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>> no option for an in-wallet ticket,
>>>>
>>>> I was offered both by the GA app for that journey.
>>>
>>> Can you elucidate what you mean by "offered"? They later told me when I
>>> opted for PDf, that I could add it to my wallet (although I can see no
>>> mechanism for doing so, that's another support-ticket I have open with
>>> them). It wasn't a separate option alongside ITSO and PDF (and I note
>>> that paper TOD isn't offered).
>>>
>>> The wording is as follows:
>>>
>>> o E-ticket. We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or
>>> print it.
>>>
>>> o Smartcard load from the app - you can load onto your Smartcard with
>>> just a tap.
>>>
>>> I assume they forgot to say "as long as your phone is NFC" (and like the
>>> next one, as long as you have our Smartcard on you).
>>>
>>> o Smartcard collect at station - your ticket will be ready for
>>> collection at the station 4hrs from now.
>>>
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/annanoyddryver/status/1472613871152160771?s=21>
>
> I wonder why you see different options to me.

Apologies, that's what the TfW app offers me. The GA app offers emailed
PDF, or load to smartcard.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>
>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>
>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>
>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>
>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>
>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>
>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>
> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
> hundred emails a day on a phone.

How many people who receive that many emails (presumably for business
reasons?) don't have a separate personal email account?

> And ask them how they view and edit the
> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
> back.

Nobody's suggesting you should *only* do email on your phone.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnt49$c99$5@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:53 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:30:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>>> unnecessary
>>>>
>>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>>> such tickets).
>>>
>>> Wne I've been on long-distance train journeys over the last five years
>>> it's seemed to me that just about everyone under 40 proffers their
>>> phone to the gripper. So I don't think 'very few' stands.
>>
>> I see plenty of people offering their phone screen to the scanner on the
>> ticket barriers to exit the station, too.
>
> Care to estimate the percentage?

No, because I don't stand and study people going through the barriers, I
just see people ahead of me in the crowd waving phones.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnt49$c99$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:53 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>>
>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>> unnecessary.
>>>
>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>> such tickets).
>>
>> OK let's leave train tickets out of it then. You said "what percentage of
>> ordinary members of the public do you think set up special email addresses
>> for different online purchases?". I still maintain that vanishingly few
>> ordinary members of the public do so. Surely you're not now going to claim
>> that none of them buy anything online?
>
> I'm sure loads of them buy things online, but they don't often involve a
> fulfilment process that requires them to present a barcode to the
> merchant (or even the delivery man).
>
> And even when they do, it's probably not on-the-hoof minutes after
> having placed the order, thus requiring the barcode to be on their
> phone.

And yet for those things which do require the emailed barcode to be shown
(theatre, museum, zoo, farm park etc) I'd suggest that the majority will be
quite successfully shown on phones.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnngq$5d4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:09 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm
>>>>> sure in
>>>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>>>> and the
>>>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>>>
>>>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>>>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>>>> £10 in Morrisons.
>>> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm
>>> told it's coming up).
>>> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>>> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>>> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>>> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>>> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>>> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>>> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
>>> normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest
>>> of the year.
>>
>> I don't agree.
>>
>> Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price
>> in Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.
>
> Surely everyone has a Clubcard on their phone?

"Surely everyone has a clubcard" is an incorrect assumption to begin with.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spjh5m$pgb$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:18 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>>>> could be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>>>> wallet. Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>>>
>>>> TfW can and do.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
>>> claimed was only available TOD.
>>>
>>> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
>>> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>>>
>>> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
>>> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
>>> register a new account to buy tickets."
>>>
>>> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
>>
>> You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
>> about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
>> claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.
>
> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
> others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).
>
> When I posted the above I wasn't aware they had replaced it with a new
> one. (Without pushing the new one to me, which would be polite, and what
> many other app vendors do automatically).

But you started a thread about the new TfW app ten days earlier? I'm
confused.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnt48$c99$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:52 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>>
>>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>
>> Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>>
>> By your definition, email is social media.
>
> A mailing list is, because there are usually many participants. One to
> one email not so much.
>

Oh, so perhaps one-to-one WhatsApp conversations aren't social media but
group chats using the same interface on the same software, are?

> Usenet is just a mailing list using a different transport protocol.
>
>> WhatsApp may allow communication in groups, but what you see is stuff
>> specifically sent to you.
>
> To everyone in the group.
>

Yes, obviously.

>> It doesn't allow you seek out other groups to join, it doesn't allow
>> you to post stuff for anyone to see.
>
> Neither of those are essential components of social media.
>

What are the essential components, then?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <spq6al$ui$6@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:09 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spjh5m$pgb$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:18 on Sat, 18 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>>>>> could be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>>>>> wallet. Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>>>>
>>>>> TfW can and do.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
>>>> claimed was only available TOD.
>>>>
>>>> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
>>>> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>>>>
>>>> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
>>>> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
>>>> register a new account to buy tickets."
>>>>
>>>> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.
>>>
>>> You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
>>> about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
>>> claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.
>>
>> I've had *a* TfW app on my phone for ages (along with about twenty
>> others, and people still dare to suggest I'm a refusenik).
>>
>> When I posted the above I wasn't aware they had replaced it with a new
>> one. (Without pushing the new one to me, which would be polite, and what
>> many other app vendors do automatically).
>
>But you started a thread about the new TfW app ten days earlier? I'm
>confused.

That was highlighting the drafting issues in the announcement that the
website was changing and that required a new account *on the website* no
mention of the app; and [a subtly different issue] not being able to use
the [|any TfW?] app.

There's nothing in that which precludes them pushing a new app.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq6al$ui$7@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:09 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnt48$c99$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:52 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>>>
>>>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>>>
>>> By your definition, email is social media.
>>
>> A mailing list is, because there are usually many participants. One to
>> one email not so much.
>
>Oh, so perhaps one-to-one WhatsApp conversations aren't social media but
>group chats using the same interface on the same software, are?

It's the platform which is social media (or not). If you use a social
media platform only for one-to-one conversations it doesn't suddenly
mean it isn't a social media platform.

>>> It doesn't allow you seek out other groups to join, it doesn't allow
>>> you to post stuff for anyone to see.
>>
>> Neither of those are essential components of social media.
>
>What are the essential components, then?

The ability to participate in shared online conversations.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>
>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>
>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>> back.
>>
>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>
> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>

Very rare for me to use email like that.

>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the document
>> they promised (just as an example).
>
> Tick.
>
>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>
> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>

What makes you so sure it's me who's unrepresentative, rather than you?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 20/12/2021 11:51, Recliner wrote:
>>
>> It's also perfectly possible to file attachments in something like
>> Dropbox, so they can be shared across devices. I
>> often do that.
>>
> I just FTP'd a PDF onto my phone and displayed it on an e-book reader
> which is another route with the advantage of being off line on my travels.
>

I usually download a number of RAIB reports into my phone's PDF viewer
before a flight!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sppj71$a8b$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:42:58 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spnv2m$ot5$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:53:10 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <splgpr$2tl$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>>>>>>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>>>>>>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who carries coins in 2021?!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a few, for supermarket trolleys etc. Or does your supermarket
>>>>> trolley park have barcode readers?
>>>>
>>>> The supermarkets I use don't have coin-trolleys,
>>>
>>> I prefer to use shops that don't, but increasingly councils make it a
>>> condition to try to combat customers dumping trolleys all over the town.
>>
>> Aah, the supermarkets I use (except ones too small to have trolleys) aren't
>> in town.
>
> The idea has spread though. Most recently I was caught out at the
> mega-Tesco on the edge of Peterborough (definitely not in-town). <thread
> convergence> I didn't have the car-keys with the token on them.
>
>>>> but in any case I rarely use a trolley anyway.
>>>
>>> And I rarely buy so few groceries that they would fit in a basket.
>>
>> Our main shopping is delivered, so visiting an actual physical shop is
>> usually only for top-ups.
>
> While deliveries certainly have a place, I often buy things I've not
> heard of before, because I see them while walking the aisles.
>

As do we, whilst browsing the 'aisles' of Ocado.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>
>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>
>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>> back.
>>
>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>
> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".

Surely even a visitor from the ladt century can appreciate that editing a
Word document is very different to reading and replying to email?

>
>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the document
>> they promised (just as an example).
>
> Tick.
>
>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>
> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.

Yes, the people posting here do less on their phones than most members of
the public.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:19:52 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>
>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>
>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>
>Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>
>By your definition, email is social media.

Some definitions of social media would, indeed, include email. And, for
that matter, Usenet. There isn't really a standard definition, because
there's no organisation with the authority to define standards.

>WhatsApp may allow communication in groups, but what you see is stuff
>specifically sent to you. It doesn't allow you seek out other groups to
>join, it doesn't allow you to post stuff for anyone to see.

The Wikipedia page on social media notes that WhatsApp (and similar
systems) is "sometimes" referred to as a social media service, but
doesn't include it in its list of examples of undisputed social media
services (such as Facebook, Twitter, TikTok and Baidu).

Personally, I wouldn't call WhatsApp social media. To me, one of the key
elements of social media is that it is media, in the same sense as
non-social media. That is, it is a means whereby people can use the
platform to publish their content to anyone who wishes to consume it.
Anyone can view my tweets, anyone can view my Instagram posts and anyone
can view the majority of my Facebook posts. To that extent, I am using
them all as a broadcast platform. Even with Facebook's ability to
restrict consumption of certain content to certain people, and the
ability to create closed groups in which content is not available to
non-members, it is still, fundamentally, structured around a system
whereby content is public. That's simply not possible on WhatsApp; the
system has no facility to make a public post and there are no
workarounds which can replicate that aspect. A group facility isn't the
same thing; plenty of instant messaging systems have had that for a long
time (anyone else remember IRC?), but even the largest groups are still
closed groups.

If people do want to describe WhatsApp et al as social media, then maybe
what we need is to define two subsets of social media: open and closed.
Open social media, such as Twitter and Facebook, includes the ability to
make public posts; closed social media, such as WhatsApp and Signal,
requires that all consumers of content have been explicitly granted
permission to consume it.

Mark

In message <spq857$7mf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:40:23 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the
>>>>>>>>>>>venue on your
>>>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as
>>>>>>>being too
>>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>>
>>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>>> back.
>>>
>>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>>
>> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
>> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>
>Very rare for me to use email like that.
>
>>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the
>>>document
>>> they promised (just as an example).
>>
>> Tick.
>>
>>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>>
>> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
>> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
>> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>
>What makes you so sure it's me who's unrepresentative,

The comment wasn't aimed specifically at you, but as you bring the
subject up, how many other people do you think post to Usenet on a
phone?

>rather than you?

I constantly put myself in other people's shoes. Maybe that's one way
I'm not representative!
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq858$7mf$3@dont-email.me>, at 15:40:24 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sppj71$a8b$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:42:58 on Mon, 20 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spnv2m$ot5$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:53:10 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <splgpr$2tl$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>>>>>>>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>>>>>>>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Who carries coins in 2021?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a few, for supermarket trolleys etc. Or does your supermarket
>>>>>> trolley park have barcode readers?
>>>>>
>>>>> The supermarkets I use don't have coin-trolleys,
>>>>
>>>> I prefer to use shops that don't, but increasingly councils make it a
>>>> condition to try to combat customers dumping trolleys all over the town.
>>>
>>> Aah, the supermarkets I use (except ones too small to have trolleys) aren't
>>> in town.
>>
>> The idea has spread though. Most recently I was caught out at the
>> mega-Tesco on the edge of Peterborough (definitely not in-town). <thread
>> convergence> I didn't have the car-keys with the token on them.
>>
>>>>> but in any case I rarely use a trolley anyway.
>>>>
>>>> And I rarely buy so few groceries that they would fit in a basket.
>>>
>>> Our main shopping is delivered, so visiting an actual physical shop is
>>> usually only for top-ups.
>>
>> While deliveries certainly have a place, I often buy things I've not
>> heard of before, because I see them while walking the aisles.
>
>As do we, whilst browsing the 'aisles' of Ocado.

I've never found online shopping sites to be very browsable. How likely
are you to stumble over a new type of German Sausage while looking for a
routine dairy product.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq6aj$ui$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:07 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>
>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>
>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>
>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>
>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>> hundred emails a day on a phone.
>
>How many people who receive that many emails (presumably for business
>reasons?) don't have a separate personal email account?

More than half the emails I get are notification from various social
media (and other) platforms, circulars from vendors (eg TfW saying they
have a new website), mailing lists and so on. Very few are directly
concerned with the various professional activities I've been involved
with the last decade. Not least (and I suppose this might colour my
attitude) because few of the people I was working with used email very
much at all.

>> And ask them how they view and edit the
>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>> back.
>
>Nobody's suggesting you should *only* do email on your phone.

That's just back to the discussion we've already had, about multiple
email addresses and/or filtering what gets sent to a phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq85f$7rr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:40:31 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the
>>>>>>>>>>>venue on your
>>>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as
>>>>>>>being too
>>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>>
>>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>>> back.
>>>
>>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>>
>> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
>> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>
>Surely even a visitor from the ladt century can appreciate that editing a
>Word document is very different to reading and replying to email?
>
>>
>>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the
>>>document
>>> they promised (just as an example).
>>
>> Tick.
>>
>>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>>
>> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
>> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
>> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>
>Yes, the people posting here do less on their phones than most members of
>the public.

Given that "the public" is about 50m people, I don't think "most of
them" do as much on their phones as you claim. There must be some OFCOM
stats on this (they do general media literacy studies).
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>>
>>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and edit the
>>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>>> back.
>>>
>>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>>
>> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
>> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>
> Surely even a visitor from the ladt century can appreciate that editing a
> Word document is very different to reading and replying to email?
>
>>
>>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the document
>>> they promised (just as an example).
>>
>> Tick.
>>
>>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>>
>> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
>> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
>> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>
> Yes, the people posting here do less on their phones than most members of
> the public.
>
>

Roland is claiming to represent the public, who in general get few emails,
whilst simultaneously claiming everything is impossible because of his
large volume of email.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>
>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>
>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode seems very
>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>
>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>
>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>
>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
>> devious but dim.
>
> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.

Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop the
text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The common
fraud is to try to alter the date.

On 20/12/2021 17:11, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spq85f$7rr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:40:31 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the
>>>>>>>>>>>> venue on your
>>>>>>>>>>>> phone?  Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including
>>>>>>>> having an
>>>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as
>>>>>>>> being too
>>>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one
>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to
>>>>>>> do, as
>>>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring
>>>>>>> signage
>>>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because
>>>>>> they all
>>>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than
>>>>> perhaps a
>>>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and
>>>>> edit the
>>>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>>>> back.
>>>>
>>>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>>>
>>> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
>>> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>>
>> Surely even a visitor from the ladt century can appreciate that editing a
>> Word document is very different to reading and replying to email?
>>
>>>
>>>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you the
>>>> document
>>>> they promised (just as an example).
>>>
>>> Tick.
>>>
>>>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>>>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>>>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>>>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>>>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>>>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>>>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>>>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>>>
>>> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
>>> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
>>> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>>
>> Yes, the people posting here do less on their phones than most members of
>> the public.
>
> Given that "the public" is about 50m people, I don't think "most of
> them" do as much on their phones as you claim. There must be some OFCOM
> stats on this (they do general media literacy studies).

Try working down the street and counting the number of people who don't
have a mobile phone clutched in their hand.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <18d1sg1dchrbrhblonh3l4b9bjcrggnakk@4ax.com>, at 17:10:37 on
Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:19:52 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>>
>>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>
>>Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>>
>>By your definition, email is social media.
>
>Some definitions of social media would, indeed, include email. And, for
>that matter, Usenet. There isn't really a standard definition, because
>there's no organisation with the authority to define standards.

I've spent much of the past 20yrs talking to politicians, regulators and
so on, who were on a quest to find out "who is running the Internet",
and tell them to pull their socks up.

The lack of a central authority hasn't stopped them introducing
legislation that refers to social media, and it's fairly well understood
what the expression means.

>>WhatsApp may allow communication in groups, but what you see is stuff
>>specifically sent to you. It doesn't allow you seek out other groups to
>>join, it doesn't allow you to post stuff for anyone to see.
>
>The Wikipedia page on social media notes that WhatsApp (and similar
>systems) is "sometimes" referred to as a social media service, but
>doesn't include it in its list of examples of undisputed social media
>services (such as Facebook, Twitter, TikTok and Baidu).

I'm not the Wikipedia police, that's someone else's job.

>Personally, I wouldn't call WhatsApp social media. To me, one of the key
>elements of social media is that it is media, in the same sense as
>non-social media. That is, it is a means whereby people can use the
>platform to publish their content to anyone who wishes to consume it.

Oh dear, conflating online content with broadcasting is a road to hell.
For many different and non-overlapping reasons.

And separately, I'm sure you must have heard of private Facebook Groups.

>Anyone can view my tweets, anyone can view my Instagram posts and anyone
>can view the majority of my Facebook posts. To that extent, I am using
>them all as a broadcast platform. Even with Facebook's ability to
>restrict consumption of certain content to certain people, and the
>ability to create closed groups in which content is not available to
>non-members, it is still, fundamentally, structured around a system
>whereby content is public.

No, it's fundamentally structured around allowing people to interact,
online. Content being public or private is nothing to do with it.

>That's simply not possible on WhatsApp; the system has no facility to
>make a public post and there are no workarounds which can replicate
>that aspect. A group facility isn't the same thing; plenty of instant
>messaging systems have had that for a long time (anyone else remember
>IRC?), but even the largest groups are still closed groups.

Quite large groups of my colleagues in the mid-late noughties, used
Jabber groups to communicate. The fact that most (but by no means all)
the talk was business orientated, didn't disqualify it from being a form
of social media.

>If people do want to describe WhatsApp et al as social media, then maybe
>what we need is to define two subsets of social media: open and closed.
>Open social media, such as Twitter and Facebook, includes the ability to
>make public posts; closed social media, such as WhatsApp and Signal,
>requires that all consumers of content have been explicitly granted
>permission to consume it.

That breaks down a bit when some social media can have both open and
closed areas. I'm not sure what this distinction brings to the pry. Are
you suggesting for example that the laws of libel, or racial hatred, or
inciting terrorism (or back in the day of Yahoo Groups, swapping images
of child abuse), shouldn't apply to closed Facebook groups?

After all, email is email, whether sent to one individual or a mailing
list with a web archive; a website is a website, whether it's public or
subscription-only.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spqf87$uta$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:28 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>>
>>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode
>>>>>seems very
>>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>>
>>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
>>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>>
>>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
>>> devious but dim.
>>
>> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
>
>Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop the
>text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The common
>fraud is to try to alter the date.

You know that an in-app ticket is a pdf? They present quite differently
to the same information arriving by email.

Most people probably don't even have the equivalent of a "File Manager"
on their phone, to even start poking around to find where the travel app
has squirreled away the data.

But as you ought to expect by now, I have such an app on my phone, and I
see there's an "android" folder, with 129 sub-folders [I have a lot of
apps on my phone] including for example wales.tfw.rail.app created on
Dec 14, 2021 and com.tfwrail created on Dec 4, 2020.

Neither have any files inside (or ones it's prepared to disclose,
anyway).

Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if they
see a file inside, and what filetype it is.

We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spqf87$uta$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:28 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>>>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
>>>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
>>>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode
>>>>>> seems very
>>>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you mention in
>>>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>>>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>>>
>>>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by the
>>>> devious but dim.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
>>
>> Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop the
>> text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The common
>> fraud is to try to alter the date.
>
> You know that an in-app ticket is a pdf? They present quite differently
> to the same information arriving by email.
>
> Most people probably don't even have the equivalent of a "File Manager"
> on their phone, to even start poking around to find where the travel app
> has squirreled away the data.
>
> But as you ought to expect by now, I have such an app on my phone, and I
> see there's an "android" folder, with 129 sub-folders [I have a lot of
> apps on my phone] including for example wales.tfw.rail.app created on
> Dec 14, 2021 and com.tfwrail created on Dec 4, 2020.
>
> Neither have any files inside (or ones it's prepared to disclose,
> anyway).
>
> Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if they
> see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>
> We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
> filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).

It’s getting tiresome now. If the ticket is available as an e-ticket it’s
pretty likely that the Aztec code in an in app presentation is going to be
the same as one that can be emailed to you. Remember that if it is an
e-ticket you can get it as an emailed pdf. Even if it is obtained as an in
app ticket, if it’s an e-ticket it’s perfectly allowable to screen shot it.
It’s only m-tickets that have to remain app bound.