Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sodffq$7c0$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:09:30 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>
>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>
>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
>>>> for example).
>>>
>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>
>>
>> "How to get your ticket(s)
>> E-Ticket
>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>> it. Guide to E-Tickets
>> Smartcard: load from the Greater Anglia app (Android or
>> ¡OS 13 and above)
>> You can load onto your Smartcard with just a tap. Please note only 5 smart
>> products can be loaded onto your Smartcard"
>>
>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>
>> "E-Ticket
>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>> it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>>
>>> Ely to Kings Cross
>>
>> "E-Ticket
>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>> it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>>
>>> or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>> network by about four years ago].
>>
>> "E-Ticket
>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>> it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>
> What are you using - I picked the most obvious: Greater Anglia's
> website.

GA App.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>
>

And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.

The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.

[1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
farebox' policy

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
>> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>>
>>
>
> Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
> Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
> supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
> business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
> printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
> postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
> they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)
>
>

Thanks for the recommendation; parcels to be collected from home is pretty
much the only thing which has been a particular frustration of not having a
printer.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>> first place.
>>
>
>
> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
>>> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
>> Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
>> supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
>> business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
>> printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
>> postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
>> they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for the recommendation; parcels to be collected from home is pretty
> much the only thing which has been a particular frustration of not having a
> printer.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Just another tip for parcels, but only works if you live in crime free
area. I’ve put a large plastic box with a hinged lid in our open porch,
marked parcels. It’s attached to the wall with an eye bolt and cable tie.
Parcels get dropped off into it, and collected from it. Postie said he
wished everyone had one. Obviously there’s a risk of getting stuff nicked,
but balanced against parcels that can’t be delivered going astray. Over a
couple of years I’ve never had a problem.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>
>>
>
> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>
> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>
> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
> farebox' policy
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). More
importantly, the price differences between them were reasonable. Now
returns have become Anytimes and are eye wateringly priced (£170 for 100
miles to London). And there was none of this Advance ticket rubbish that
restricts you to a given train. The argument for these is it gives people
the opportunity to buy an affordable ticket. We used to have affordable
flexible tickets before they were made very expensive. I can see an
argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
have a reservation system.

On 04/12/2021 04:35, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>> first place.
>>
>
>
> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>

The other advantages of the penalty fare system, unlike the the reliance
on prosecutions for theft are that it is a lot cheaper and quicker to
administer and also means the culprit doesn't necessarily end up with a
criminal record.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04/12/2021 07:18, Tweed wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>>> first place.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>

Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04/12/2021 07:39, Tweed wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>
>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>
>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>> farebox' policy
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). More
> importantly, the price differences between them were reasonable. Now
> returns have become Anytimes and are eye wateringly priced (£170 for 100
> miles to London). And there was none of this Advance ticket rubbish that
> restricts you to a given train. The argument for these is it gives people
> the opportunity to buy an affordable ticket. We used to have affordable
> flexible tickets before they were made very expensive. I can see an
> argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
> this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
> can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
> around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
> have a reservation system.
>

Sorry that is a load of golden age guff. There were more than the just 3
types of ticket even in BR days. Complaints about the fares being too
high were universal than as now.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 04:35:20 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>>>> what I write, you will disagree.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Another one who descends to insults when you have no convincing argument.
>>>
>>
>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>> were invented?
>>
>>
>
>Ticket offices in more places, staffed barriers in more places (I remember
>them being removed from Llandudno and Llandudno Junction, for example), and
>a 'managed-decline' policy of 'nobody actually cares' which got us to where
>we are today?
>
>

Except for the quietest places ticket offices were ubiquitous and open
for long hours. My return from honeymoon in 1979 was affected by a
late flight and an absence of ground staff at LGW, meaning that our
journey home involved the 0415 from Liverpool Street. When we got to
Bishop's Stortford about 50 minutes later the booking clerk was able
to recommend a taxi firm to get us home.

Barriers didn't decline under BR, they were formally abolished as an
'open stations' policy to make travelling more attractive. I think
that was the right thing to do.
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 07:18, Tweed wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>>>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>>>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>>>> first place.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>>
>
> Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.
>

Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts. Scary
notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry some and put
others off the railways.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 07:39, Tweed wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>
>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>
>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>> farebox' policy
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). More
>> importantly, the price differences between them were reasonable. Now
>> returns have become Anytimes and are eye wateringly priced (£170 for 100
>> miles to London). And there was none of this Advance ticket rubbish that
>> restricts you to a given train. The argument for these is it gives people
>> the opportunity to buy an affordable ticket. We used to have affordable
>> flexible tickets before they were made very expensive. I can see an
>> argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
>> this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
>> can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
>> around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
>> have a reservation system.
>>
>
> Sorry that is a load of golden age guff. There were more than the just 3
> types of ticket even in BR days. Complaints about the fares being too
> high were universal than as now.
>

Depends where you live. Down south you appear to have remarkably good value
tickets compared to the East Midlands. Bet you don’t pay 85p/mile for an
Anytime ticket.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>
>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>
>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>> my phone.
>>>
>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>
>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>> purchases).
>
> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>
>>
>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>
>
> Why?

It’s déja vu all over again…

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>
>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>
>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>> farebox' policy
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …

Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>> machine
>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>
>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>> buy
>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>
>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>> PDF
>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>> need an
>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>
>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>
>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>
>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>> Vogon.
>
>
> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>
> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>
> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.

Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>
>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>
>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>> farebox' policy
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>
> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>
> Sam
>

Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>> buy
>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>
>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>> PDF
>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>> need an
>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>
>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>
>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>
>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>> Vogon.
>>
>>
>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>
>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>
>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>
> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>
> Sam
>

The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
isn’t going to change especially for him.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
>>> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
>> Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
>> supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
>> business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
>> printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
>> postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
>> they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for the recommendation; parcels to be collected from home is pretty
> much the only thing which has been a particular frustration of not having a
> printer.

We have a neighbour, a student, who has a couple of times asked if other
folks in the stair could print off a return label for him. We’ve been
happy to oblige.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
>>>> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>>>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>>>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>>>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>>>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
>>> Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
>>> supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
>>> business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
>>> printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
>>> postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
>>> they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the recommendation; parcels to be collected from home is pretty
>> much the only thing which has been a particular frustration of not having a
>> printer.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> Just another tip for parcels, but only works if you live in crime free
> area. I’ve put a large plastic box with a hinged lid in our open porch,
> marked parcels. It’s attached to the wall with an eye bolt and cable tie.
> Parcels get dropped off into it, and collected from it. Postie said he
> wished everyone had one. Obviously there’s a risk of getting stuff nicked,
> but balanced against parcels that can’t be delivered going astray. Over a
> couple of years I’ve never had a problem.

Here we have 6 flats behind a locked door with an entryphone. It used to be
that when there was a delivery for someone who wasn’t in the delivery
person get another householder to take in the parcel, and make a note of
which flat it was in. Then, around the time lockdown started, they would
just leave it on the relevant doormat. Now they’ve taken to just asking
for the door to be opened, dropping the parcel inside and making a run for
it. I don’t know if they’re required to produce any kind of proof of
delivery. Even in earlier times we’ve had at least one theft - the
miscreant(s) left the packaging behind and just made off with the contents.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>
>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>
>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.

The particular quote I was replying to was implying there were only a very
small set of tickets. That wasn’t quite true, though clearly many fewer
variations than now.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>> need an
>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>
>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>
>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>> Vogon.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>
>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>
>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>
>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>

I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.

Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the legally
required link to remove myself for the same.

I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
address they use exactly who provided it to them.

On 04/12/2021 14:14, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
>>>>> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>>>>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>>>>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>>>>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>>>>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
>>>> Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
>>>> supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
>>>> business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
>>>> printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
>>>> postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
>>>> they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the recommendation; parcels to be collected from home is pretty
>>> much the only thing which has been a particular frustration of not having a
>>> printer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> Just another tip for parcels, but only works if you live in crime free
>> area. I’ve put a large plastic box with a hinged lid in our open porch,
>> marked parcels. It’s attached to the wall with an eye bolt and cable tie.
>> Parcels get dropped off into it, and collected from it. Postie said he
>> wished everyone had one. Obviously there’s a risk of getting stuff nicked,
>> but balanced against parcels that can’t be delivered going astray. Over a
>> couple of years I’ve never had a problem.
>
> Here we have 6 flats behind a locked door with an entryphone. It used to be
> that when there was a delivery for someone who wasn’t in the delivery
> person get another householder to take in the parcel, and make a note of
> which flat it was in. Then, around the time lockdown started, they would
> just leave it on the relevant doormat. Now they’ve taken to just asking
> for the door to be opened, dropping the parcel inside and making a run for
> it. I don’t know if they’re required to produce any kind of proof of
> delivery. Even in earlier times we’ve had at least one theft - the
> miscreant(s) left the packaging behind and just made off with the contents.
>

Some operatives seem to take photographs of the parcel on the doorstep.

My parcels go to an office with CCTV. Apparently they have video of a
Hermes operative taking a photograph of an empty doorstep.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>
>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>
>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>
>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>
>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>
>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>
>
> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
> well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
> inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
> specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
> through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>
> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the legally
> required link to remove myself for the same.
>
> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
> apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>
>
Can’t you just get the unwanted emails auto junked by a suitable filter
configured server side?
There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
multiple accounts.

On Sat, 04 Dec 2021 15:14:03 +0000, Tweed wrote:

> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>> machine at the station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is
>>>>>>>>> last-minute discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary
>>>>>>>>> I ticket I might buy is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a
>>>>>>>>> £100 fin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open
>>>>>>>> the PDF attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no,
>>>>>>>> you don't need an Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone
>>>>>>> else’s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>>>>> general public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as
>>>>>> possible pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without
>>>>>> the added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible,
>>>>>> and others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend
>>>>>> quite a while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface
>>>>>> designed by a Vogon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available
>>>>> on my phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets
>>>>> so they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more
>>>>> useful for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far
>>>>> as I know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email
>>>> setup.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>> very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>> convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>> change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>
>>>
>> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>> well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>> inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>> specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>> through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>
>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>
>> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>> apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
>> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>
>>
> Can’t you just get the unwanted emails auto junked by a suitable filter
> configured server side?
> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
> multiple accounts.

I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been used yet.
Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.

Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are something
like "your tickets".

nib

On 04/12/2021 12:48, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 07:18, Tweed wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>>>>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>>>>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>>>>> first place.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
>>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>>>
>>
>> Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.
>>
>
> Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts. Scary
> notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry some and put
> others off the railways.
>

Really? Please cite where this is the proven case. The penalty is going
up from £80 to £100, are you seriously asking me to believe that people
are happy to be threatened with an £80 fine but I going to be scared out
of their wits at the thought of £100 fine in this day and age?

I can remember when the penalty for the improper(!) use of a certain
item of railway furniture increased ten-fold overnight and no-one batted
an eyelid.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.