Or £50 if paid within 21 days.

Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
TfL has an £80 penalty.

<https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
--
Roland Perry

On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>
> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>
> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>

OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.

But inevitably many honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
misbehaving, etc.

On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>
>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>
>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>
>
> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>
> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
> misbehaving, etc.
>

And how many times does that actually happen?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>
>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>
>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>
>>
>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>
>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>> misbehaving, etc.
>>
>
> And how many times does that actually happen?
>

The trouble with penalty fares is they are very easy to issue for a breach
of the ticket rules and impossible to dispute if those rules have indeed
been breached. They can become a fine for not being well informed enough
about our Byzantine ticketing system.

In message <so08i4$nag$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:32 on Sun, 28 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>
>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>
>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>
>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.

>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out
>>due to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>misbehaving, etc.
>
>And how many times does that actually happen?

Depends where you are. Many rural ticket machine are far too often
broken. And ticket windows failing to operate during their advertised
hours.

And that's before we look at the problem of insufficient capacity so
that people who are trying to buy a ticket for their 1tph give up
because there's too long a queue.
--
Roland Perry

On 28/11/2021 15:58, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>
>>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>
>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>
>>
>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>
>
> The trouble with penalty fares is they are very easy to issue for a breach
> of the ticket rules and impossible to dispute if those rules have indeed
> been breached. They can become a fine for not being well informed enough
> about our Byzantine ticketing system.
>

Again, how often does that happen?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 28/11/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so08i4$nag$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:32 on Sun, 28 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>
>>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>
>>>  OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>
>>>  But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out
>>> due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>
>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>
> Depends where you are. Many rural ticket machine are far too often
> broken. And ticket windows failing to operate during their advertised
> hours.

I'm not asking about broken ticket machines or ticket office openings.
I'm asking how often people are genuinely caught out by such things

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>
>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>
>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>
>>
>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>
>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>> misbehaving, etc.
>>
>
>And how many times does that actually happen?
>
In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.

In message <so0kos$ups$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:19:56 on Sun, 28 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 28/11/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so08i4$nag$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:32 on Sun, 28 Nov
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>
>>>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>
>>>>  OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>
>>>>  But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>out due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in
>>>>ticket offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines
>>>>are misbehaving, etc.
>>>
>>> And how many times does that actually happen?

>> Depends where you are. Many rural ticket machine are far too often
>>broken. And ticket windows failing to operate during their advertised
>>hours.
>
>I'm not asking about broken ticket machines or ticket office openings.
>I'm asking how often people are genuinely caught out by such things

People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
not that much of a thing round here).

Having to catch a train because the queue is too long is a rather
different matter.

I hope there's some re-thinking of the policy on that - currently it's
not clear that if a window queue is longer than the time stated as a
maximum, whether that's a legitimate excuse to ignore a "compulsory
ticket" area, and buy one at your destination.
--
Roland Perry

On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>
>>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>
>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>
>>
>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>
> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>

How many times have they been prosecuted?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>
>>>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>
>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>
>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>
>How many times have they been prosecuted?

Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people to
use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully prosecuted,
or worrying if the gripper on the train really has been told the ticket
machine at Much Wallop on the Nether is out of action again.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>
>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out
>>>>> due
>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>
>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>
>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>
> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people to
> use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully prosecuted,
> or worrying if the gripper on the train really has been told the ticket
> machine at Much Wallop on the Nether is out of action again.

I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>>>out due
>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>
>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>
>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?

>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>prosecuted, or worrying if the gripper on the train really has been
>>told the ticket machine at Much Wallop on the Nether is out of action
>>again.
>
>I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.

Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people to
use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully prosecuted.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink,
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>>>> out  due
>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>
>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>
>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>
>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>> to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>> prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the train really has been
>>> told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on the Nether is out of
>>> action again.
>>
>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>
> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people to
> use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully prosecuted.

Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink,
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>>>>> out  due
>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>
>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the train
>>>> really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on the
>>>> Nether is out of action again.
>>>
>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>
>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>> to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>
> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>
Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up before
it reaches that stage.

In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>><https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>>>>>out  due to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff
>>>>>>>>in ticket offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket
>>>>>>>>machines are misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>
>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the train
>>>>really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on the
>>>>Nether is out of action again.
>>>
>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.

>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>prosecuted.
>
>Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?

You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case
study.
--
Roland Perry

Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the train
>>>>> really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on the
>>>>> Nether is out of action again.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>
>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>> to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>> prosecuted.
>>
>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>
> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up before
> it reaches that stage.

Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the gripperissues
a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?

In Germany, the escalation steps are
1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
4) prosecution

As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
working correctly.

Rolf

In message <so2a8r$coh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:58 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>
>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>before it reaches that stage.
>
>Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the
>gripperissues a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?
>
>In Germany, the escalation steps are
>1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
>2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
>3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
>4) prosecution
>
>As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
>there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
>working correctly.

The issue here is how many people are confident at doing step #2, what
evidence do they have to support the appeal, and how often are they
upheld (or more pertinently, wrongly not upheld).
--
Roland Perry

Am 29.11.2021 um 11:43 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <so2a8r$coh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:58 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>> train  really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>> the  Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people  to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>
>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>> before  it reaches that stage.
>>
>> Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the
>> gripperissues a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?
>>
>> In Germany, the escalation steps are
>> 1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
>> 2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
>> 3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
>> 4) prosecution
>>
>> As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
>> there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
>> working correctly.
>
> The issue here is how many people are confident at doing step #2, what
> evidence do they have to support the appeal, and how often are they
> upheld (or more pertinently, wrongly not upheld).

A similary question is how many people are confident to appeal a
speeding ticket for the car?
Germany has an "Appeal" culture where the majroity of tickets are
appealed, even for spurious reasons, so nobody would worry about writing
"I tried to buy a ticket at station xy but the machine on platform 1 was
not working, and buying a ticket at platform 2 would have caused me to
miss my train because I sit in a wheelchair".
It's helpful but by no means necessary to take a photo of the
non-working ticket machine.

Rolf

On 29/11/2021 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink,  while
>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>>>>>> out  due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil
>>>>>>>>> staff in ticket  offices, failure to believe passengers when
>>>>>>>>> ticket machines are  misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>> train really has been  told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>> the Nether is out of  action again.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>
>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>> to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>> prosecuted.
>>
>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>
> You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case study.

That was how many decades ago?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught
>>>>>>>>> out  due
>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the train
>>>>> really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on the
>>>>> Nether is out of action again.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>
>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>> to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>> prosecuted.
>>
>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>
> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up before
> it reaches that stage.

Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I want
to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 29/11/2021 10:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so2a8r$coh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:58 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>> train  really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>> the  Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people  to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>
>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>> before  it reaches that stage.
>>
>> Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the
>> gripperissues a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?
>>
>> In Germany, the escalation steps are
>> 1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
>> 2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
>> 3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
>> 4) prosecution
>>
>> As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
>> there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
>> working correctly.
>
> The issue here is how many people are confident at doing step #2, what
> evidence do they have to support the appeal, and how often are they
> upheld (or more pertinently, wrongly not upheld).

The issue here is whether it is a real problem or just scare-mongering.
Fare evasion is a real problem, do we just ignore it on the off-chance
that one person in a thousand might have their tender feelings hurt?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <so2ef7$8ot$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:39 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/11/2021 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>Metrolink,  while
>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>><https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>caught out  due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient /
>>>>>>>>>>nil staff in ticket  offices, failure to believe passengers
>>>>>>>>>>when ticket machines are  misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>unsuccessfully  prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>train really has been  told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>the Nether is out of  action again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>
>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>
>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?

>> You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case
>>study.
>
>That was how many decades ago?

Have the basic underlying rules changed since then?
--
Roland Perry

In message <so2eme$8ot$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:48:30 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/11/2021 10:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so2a8r$coh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:58 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>> Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>train  really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>on the  Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>people  to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>before  it reaches that stage.
>>>
>>> Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the
>>>gripperissues a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?
>>>
>>> In Germany, the escalation steps are
>>> 1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
>>> 2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
>>> 3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
>>> 4) prosecution
>>>
>>> As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
>>>there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
>>>working correctly.

>> The issue here is how many people are confident at doing step #2,
>>what evidence do they have to support the appeal, and how often are
>>they upheld (or more pertinently, wrongly not upheld).
>
>The issue here is whether it is a real problem or just scare-mongering.
>Fare evasion is a real problem, do we just ignore it on the off-chance
>that one person in a thousand might have their tender feelings hurt?

It's not a case of hurt feelings, but the hassle of having to appeal and
the stress of wondering if they'll accept what may well be anecdotal
evidence. And if they don't a £100 penalty to pay.

Perhaps this increase will trigger a little more engagement in the
public, reporting when things have gone wrong (like broken machines,
excessive queues, and ultimately unfair penalties).

While I accept there's a problem with systemic fare evasion by a
minority, bear-traps for the well-meaning infrequent traveller are
not good either.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/11/2021 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so2ef7$8ot$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:39 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink,  while
>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>> caught  out  due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient
>>>>>>>>>>> / nil  staff in ticket  offices, failure to believe
>>>>>>>>>>> passengers when  ticket machines are  misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>> train really has been  told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>> the Nether is out of  action again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>
>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>
>>>  You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case
>>> study.
>>
>> That was how many decades ago?
>
> Have the basic underlying rules changed since then?

If the best you can do is refer to an event many years ago, I'll take it
there is no real problem.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.