On 10/12/2021 07:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sotfh6$9no$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:48:22 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>  My oldest Gmail account goes back to googlemail days as well. But
>>> the  oldest email in the account is dated 2007, so not as old as yours.
>>
>> As I was with Demon[1] then I had no need of gmail at the time, I
>> could have as many mailboxes as I wanted. I still only use gmail as a
>> source of throwaway addresses to log into pub wifi and similar
>
> It's normally the case that Google locks their users into having Gmail
> accounts for Android phones so comprehensively it's not worth the effort
> to try to resist the borg.

Yet another reason not to have an Android phone.

>
> For example when submitting photos to Google Maps, or giving restaurant
> reviews. At least they contact you pretty much in-app, rather than
> emailing you a PDF to fill in and return.

Neither of which I'm in the habit of doing. Google make enough money
without me donating my meagre efforts to the cause.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <sokotp$ii5$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:29 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 06/12/2021 09:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sofo39$j8e$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:48:41 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately
>>>>>ticketless.
>>>>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>>>>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>>>>
>>>> Still hasn't been demonstrated that this is a major problem.
>>>
>>> Doesn’t have to be a major problem. It’s perception that counts. Scary
>>> notices that you might get done for a £100 is enough to worry some
>>>and put
>>> others off the railways.

>> That's right. There are massive very scary signs at my station,
>>right where the barriers would be if they installed some. What are
>>people supposed to think, if they turn up and find the ticket office
>>closed?
>
>Rubbish, the people you think will be scared don't believe the signs
>apply to them. The people who should be sacred don't think they will
>get caught.

That's not the case. The people who don't want to work the TVMs are
generally timid folk who would also be fearful of travelling without a
ticket.

>> Los of them clearly have technophobia which rules out using the
>>machines,
>
>That's their problem, how the devil

That's the devil who catches the hindmost, I suppose.

>did they cope with lockdown where being able to use appropriate
>technology has been the only way to do anything.

You are assuming they are in employment that transferred to working-from
home. And even when they were, the answer is often "rather badly".

I was discussing this yesterday with someone who manages online
conference calls, and they still have participants who have not yet
worked out how to mute/unmute, and have to do it for them.

>> not surprising given the Balkanisation of the fares system, and a
>>user interface which hides essential elements away so you need quite
>>a bit of practice to find them.
>
>I assume Ely ticket machines have a totally different interface to all
>the other machines on the network.

It's common to other machines on the line, but that's not the issue.

(Although machines on different lines having completely different UIs is
a rather separate, but very real, issue)

Perhaps you can tell me: how many machines on other lines wilfully
obfuscate the availability of weekend-only super-off-peak tickets
(rather than offer them on the first screen at weekends only), then we
can compare notes.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/12/2021 08:33, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> .
>>
>> Youngsters today can barely comprehend understanding both hardware and
>> software at the same time, let alone being that kind of system
>> integrator.
>
> That’s another assertion that is plain inaccurate. There’s a huge number of
> young people that work with RPis, Arduino etc. Granted most fall by the
> wayside as time goes on, but some go on to professional engineering. I work
> at both the software and hardware level in addition to system architecture,
> as do many other people I know. People who work with FPGAs are probably the
> closest in the modern world to your days of fiddling with disk drive
> controllers. In the days when you were fixing disk drive controllers I was
> fixing mini computers at chip level, it’s what we did in those days. We
> probably had elderly engineers grumbling that integrated circuits took away
> all the understanding of building circuits out of a couple of transistors
> and a diode, and another bunch moaning that valves were much better.
>

That sounds familiar!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>
>>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>
>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>>
>> I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>
> The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
> common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>
> And this thread is mainly about what happens when the TVM is broken,
> dear Liza.
>
No, the point is if you are willing to engage with the appropriate means of
getting an electronic ticket you don’t need to even worry about the
existence of a TVM, working or not.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>> might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>> hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>> this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>>
>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>>> £100 fine.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>>> the car.
>>>
>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>
>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if the
>> TVM is working or not.
>
> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>
> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>
> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>
> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
> later).

My reaction would be I don’t need to even contemplate the bus driver’s
broken ticket machine, because I’ve tapped on, or I’ve purchased a ticket
on my phone. Even here in the East Midlands we’ve done away with the need
to buy tickets on the bus.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 19:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>  If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>
>>>>  Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute
>>>> using their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on
>>>> pain of a £100 fine.
>>>
>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out
>>> of the car.
>>
>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>
> Doesn't stop you going back to the car to get out f the rain or even
> sheltering under the station canopy while you order the ticket. No need
> to stand in the rain.
>

The real point is that once you can cope with buying electronic tickets,
which seems to be Roland’s problem, you don’t need to worry about the
existence of a TVM, rain or no rain.

So far his arguments have been that he doesn’t like the apps (excuses
various), so folk have suggested he uses the emailed pdf, which then
generates a long list of spurious reasons why that’s not workable either.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 21:32, Tweed wrote:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>
>>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>
>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>>
>>
>
> That charges you a fee to use. I use the National Rail app but that
> hands you off to the relevant TOC to actually buy the ticket. Not caused
> me any significant problems over the years but then I haven't ventured
> by rail into the black hole of the Ely Triangle since about 1971.
>

I was under the impression that the Trainline didn’t charge a fee for
electronic tickets. Am I wrong?

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>>buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>
>The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.

And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.

If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
connection to the one I had been intending.

If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.

Mark

Am 10.12.2021 um 09:40 schrieb Graeme Wall:
> On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:

>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such as
>> railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
>> ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>
> Why?

I have (with the german words for) "Advertizing", "phone", "shopping",
and one "holidays" (plus "Sports" for the various sports clouds).

"Rolf" and "Holidays" are forwarded to the mobile phone, "railways" is
not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app whether I
buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.
The others have no reason to reach the mobile phone.

Rolf

Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic. You
>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.
>
> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer why
> I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies fining
> me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?

I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
their TVMs are broken.

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>>
>> The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>> common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>
> And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.
>
> If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
> I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
> or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
> change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
> of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
> connection to the one I had been intending.
>
> If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
> accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
> irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
> otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.
>
> Mark
>

Having not travelled extensively of late, have we got to the point where
apps now present QR codes, and are these now accepted on most TOC trains?

In message <3o26rgldmt59ln4p41vh2soqfl90tg66k2@4ax.com>, at 08:11:29 on
Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 12:11:34 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <57rrqgp2qelb6cfe8sjj3otebr3aeikhen@4ax.com>, at 11:00:46 on
>>Mon, 6 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>>>>>very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>>>>>convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>>>>>change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>>>>well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>>>>inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>>>>specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>>>>>through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>>
>>>>Emailing pdfs is also very clunky - why can't they push the tickets to
>>>>the booking app, in the same way Google Play pushes new apps to your
>>>>phone?
>>>
>>>As I have said at least twice this is exactly what does happen, with
>>>GA at least. Buy a ticket from the app or on the web and they just
>>>appear in the app ready for use.
>>
>>I'll give it another go when I have some time. But I can absolutely
>>assure you that the other day when I tried this, the options the GA
>>website gave for a selection of mystery purchases did not all include a
>>pdf option, let alone a deliver-to-app version.
>>
>>As far as I could see they were also significantly averse to e-ticketing
>>south of Tottenham Hale. Is that some issue with the barriers at
>>Liverpool St, or some conflict with the Oyster zoning?
>>
>>Perhaps you could name a station pair where you know it to work (I'm not
>>claiming it's never available, but GA's ticketing is very inconsistent,
>>hence probably why there's been three different and incompatible lists
>>at large as to what to expect to work, or not).
>
>It worked for Bishop's Stortford to Liverpool St. just fine.

I'll see what the website offers. But...

>Note that in my earlier replies I never claimed you were offered the
>option to have an mTicket. Just that if you select pdf you seem to get
>a single ticket than can be used as a pdf (e.g. printed) and also
>apears in 'My Tickets' on the GA app.

....I wonder why they don't tell customers that might happen?

That's a bit of a big mystery purchase to make, but I might have a poke
around to see what cheaper fares there are. Mountfitchet to BS perhaps
(I can get that down to £1.30 with a fictional Student Discount).
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sotp1a$epk$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:30:33 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>> On 09/12/2021 17:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>>>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>>>>>> district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was
>>>>>>>> a "coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th
>>>>>>>> Century,  but a further separation in more recent years.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>>>>>> based  in Manchester.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>>>>>> Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>>>>>> affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>>>>>> couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them
>>>>>>> out, a regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new
>>>>>>> organisation.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer
>>>>>>> Affairs programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>>>>>> programme.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly
>>>>> every  day, and this sequence of events played out.
>>
>>>>  I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually
>>>> take  much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't
>>>> work on  that episode.
>>>
>>> Off-topic even for us, but do you know how the digital clock behind the
>>> Nationwide presenters was operated?  It always showed the right time
>>> but, in years of careful watching, I never saw its Solari style digits
>>> flip over to the next minute on-screen, which struck me as curious.
>>> flip digits as [obrail] Solari board
>>
>> A school-friend of mine worked for BBC engineering, and was "in charge
>> of digital clocks", so I might ask him. His pride and joy was the Ceefax
>> clock, which was locked to Rugby (and completely custom built).
>>
>> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more detail to
>> see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid geeks has a
>> digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent TVs, one on
>> Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two seconds apart.
>
> One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add in he
> digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going to get
> noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.
>
>

I have two Amazon Echo devices, one 5" and one 8", in different rooms. When
playing the same digital radio station, there's definitely a longer delay
(indeed, an echo) in one compared to the other. Both are connecting via the
same (fast) broadband connection and WiFi network. Both devices are the
same age.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/12/2021 08:33, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> .
>>>
>>> Youngsters today can barely comprehend understanding both hardware and
>>> software at the same time, let alone being that kind of system
>>> integrator.
>>
>> That’s another assertion that is plain inaccurate. There’s a huge number of
>> young people that work with RPis, Arduino etc. Granted most fall by the
>> wayside as time goes on, but some go on to professional engineering. I work
>> at both the software and hardware level in addition to system architecture,
>> as do many other people I know. People who work with FPGAs are probably the
>> closest in the modern world to your days of fiddling with disk drive
>> controllers. In the days when you were fixing disk drive controllers I was
>> fixing mini computers at chip level, it’s what we did in those days. We
>> probably had elderly engineers grumbling that integrated circuits took away
>> all the understanding of building circuits out of a couple of transistors
>> and a diode, and another bunch moaning that valves were much better.
>>
>
> That sounds familiar!

That so makes me think of Mel.
<https://www.cs.utah.edu/~elb/folklore/mel.html>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 10.12.2021 um 09:40 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>> On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such as
>>> railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
>>> ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>>
>> Why?
>
> I have (with the german words for) "Advertizing", "phone", "shopping",
> and one "holidays" (plus "Sports" for the various sports clouds).
>
> "Rolf" and "Holidays" are forwarded to the mobile phone, "railways" is
> not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app whether I
> buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.
> The others have no reason to reach the mobile phone.

And yet you don’t complain about the terrible hardship you’re having to
suffer…

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 21:32, Tweed wrote:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>
>>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>
>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>
>> I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>>
>>
>
> That charges you a fee to use. I use the National Rail app but that
> hands you off to the relevant TOC to actually buy the ticket. Not caused
> me any significant problems over the years but then I haven't ventured
> by rail into the black hole of the Ely Triangle since about 1971.

You’ll have noticed that I travelled by train through the Ely triangle in
September. We bought tickets from one of the bank of working TVMs in
Norwich and the tickets got us all the way to King’s Lynn, changing at Ely.
Fortunately it wasn’t raining and we weren’t marooned in any car parks,
though some of the folks we were with wanted to travel on a train that was
cancelled. I guess we were the execptions that proved the rule.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <solr19$glu$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:15:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>>>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>>>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>>>> first place.
>>>
>>> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>>>
>>
>> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
>> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
>> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>
>The difficulty it telling the difference between those who made a genuine
>mistake, and those who have done exactly the same thing on purpose.
>
>My colleagues in the guard grade tell me they develop the knack of spotting
>the genuine vs deliberate, mostly around attitude and demeanour…

I have a friend who does a traffic-wardeny-thing, and he says exactly
the same. After about a week in the job, the chancers might as well have
a flashing light on their heads.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotfh6$9no$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:48:22 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> My oldest Gmail account goes back to googlemail days as well. But
>>> the oldest email in the account is dated 2007, so not as old as yours.
>>
>> As I was with Demon[1] then I had no need of gmail at the time, I could
>> have as many mailboxes as I wanted. I still only use gmail as a source
>> of throwaway addresses to log into pub wifi and similar
>
> It's normally the case that Google locks their users into having Gmail
> accounts for Android phones so comprehensively it's not worth the effort
> to try to resist the borg.

I have an Android phone and a Google account which is used to back the
phone up and some other admin features. They send email to that address
once a month or so, but otherwise I ignore it and use the Fastmail app. I
also used to use K9 Mail for accessing IMAP folders and experimented with
Google’s IMAP implementation but rapidly decided not to bother. Very, very
occasionally I have used the Google account to access other services, but
that’s a vanishingly small number.

> For example when submitting photos to Google Maps, or giving restaurant
> reviews. At least they contact you pretty much in-app, rather than
> emailing you a PDF to fill in and return.

<shrugs>

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>> might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>> hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>> this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>>>
>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>>> £100 fine.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>>> the car.
>>>
>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>
>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if the
>> TVM is working or not.
>
> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>
> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>
> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>
> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
> later).

Do you have any evidence that that’s what the TOC’s response would be if
you boarded the train without a ticket because the TVM was broken?

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soknoi$atl$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:38 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <soer6a$iu7$4@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:22 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>>>>>> were invented?
>>>>>
>>>>> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
>>>>> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
>>>>> expressly for that purpose.
>>>>
>>>> They still exist in many places, including Paddington,
>>>
>>> Even on the Bakerloo Line?
>>>
>>>> Reading and Bristol Temple Meads.
>>>
>>> I suppose Reading is partly TfL these days.
>>>
>>> ps I've actually given up wondering when the Elizabeth Line will open.
>>
>> Obviously, the Reading part is already open. The central London section is
>> currently expected to open next spring, but through services from the west
>> will be later.
>>
>> I think it's physically complete, with the software almost ready, and now
>> it's a case of rehearsing lots of operational scenarios (ie, dealing with
>> various different problems, faults, evacuations, etc) and bedding down the
>> trial operations. Some of the NR stations are still incomplete, but that
>> won't delay the opening.
>>
>> Latest update: https://youtu.be/WXZ2BEthYEc
>
> I made a special effort to be on the first [public] Thameslink train
> through the core. They were handing out commemorate cup-cakes, although
> something less perishable might have been welcome.
>
> If there's an equivalent train through the Crossrail Core, I'll probably
> try to be there. But it's far less clear if that milestone should be
> Paddington-Abbey_Wood, or a service that's through from further west.

The latter will be months later than the former, so will probably attract
much less razzamataz.

But be warned that the first public train might be very early in the
morning, as with the Battersea extension. There may be a VIP-only official
opening train the previous day, possibly with HM in the cab. Perhaps that
train will do what the initial public trains don't, and run through from
west to east.

On 10/12/2021 10:59, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/12/2021 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sotp1a$epk$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:30:33 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 17:57, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>>>>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>>>>>>> district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was
>>>>>>>>> a "coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th
>>>>>>>>> Century,  but a further separation in more recent years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>>>>>>> based  in Manchester.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>>>>>>> Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>>>>>>> affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>>>>>>> couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them
>>>>>>>> out, a regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new
>>>>>>>> organisation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer
>>>>>>>> Affairs programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>>>>>>> programme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly
>>>>>> every  day, and this sequence of events played out.
>>>
>>>>>  I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually
>>>>> take  much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't
>>>>> work on  that episode.
>>>>
>>>> Off-topic even for us, but do you know how the digital clock behind the
>>>> Nationwide presenters was operated?  It always showed the right time
>>>> but, in years of careful watching, I never saw its Solari style digits
>>>> flip over to the next minute on-screen, which struck me as curious.
>>>> flip digits as [obrail] Solari board
>>>
>>> A school-friend of mine worked for BBC engineering, and was "in charge
>>> of digital clocks", so I might ask him. His pride and joy was the Ceefax
>>> clock, which was locked to Rugby (and completely custom built).
>>>
>>> I keep meaning to study the BBC Breakfast (etc) clocks in more detail to
>>> see how far off they are, especially as one of their Covid geeks has a
>>> digital clock on the wall behind him. I have two adjacent TVs, one on
>>> Freesat, the other on Freeview, and they are about two seconds apart.
>>
>> One has the signal travelling a lot further than the other. Add in he
>> digital delays on each tx chain (and rx chain) and you are going to get
>> noticeable variations between nominally the same stations.
>>
>>
>
> I have two Amazon Echo devices, one 5" and one 8", in different rooms. When
> playing the same digital radio station, there's definitely a longer delay
> (indeed, an echo) in one compared to the other. Both are connecting via the
> same (fast) broadband connection and WiFi network. Both devices are the
> same age.

It's the big problem with digital, every electronic item in the chain
introduces a delay that varies according to both the type and the
individual item.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10/12/2021 09:12, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 09/12/2021 21:32, Tweed wrote:
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>>
>>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can’t you just
>>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That charges you a fee to use. I use the National Rail app but that
>> hands you off to the relevant TOC to actually buy the ticket. Not caused
>> me any significant problems over the years but then I haven't ventured
>> by rail into the black hole of the Ely Triangle since about 1971.
>>
>
> I was under the impression that the Trainline didn’t charge a fee for
> electronic tickets. Am I wrong?
>

Its business model is charging commission on the tickets it sells.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:17:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I?ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can?t you just
>>>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why the need for
>>>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting offspring.
>>>
>>> The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>>> common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>>
>> And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.
>>
>> If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
>> I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
>> or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
>> change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
>> of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
>> connection to the one I had been intending.
>>
>> If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
>> accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
>> irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
>> otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.
>>
>Having not travelled extensively of late, have we got to the point where
>apps now present QR codes, and are these now accepted on most TOC trains?

I don't know. A simple QR code would be the most sensible option,
because that can be delivered by any mechanism and displayed on any
device (and, as a last resort, can be printed, even if you have to
screenshot it to do so). Given the choice between email and an app, I'd
choose email because that Just Plain Works without me needing to install
another app, and having been sent to me it's accessible on any device I
own (and, having been downloaded once, it's subsequently available
offline, which is useful if the gripper happens to come round in a
mobile notspot).

But, as I said elsewhere in this discussion, I'd quite like the option
to get a ticket via WhatsApp. WhatsApp's push mechanism is more reliable
than email and, because it won't be competing for my attention with
potentially hundreds of emails, it will be much easier to spot in my
message list. And, like email, once I've downloaded the ticket once
(either a PDF or an image), it will be available offline until I
explicitly delete it.

Mark

On 10/12/2021 10:05, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 10.12.2021 um 09:40 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>> On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>> as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
>>> ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>>
>> Why?
>
> I have (with the german words for)  "Advertizing", "phone", "shopping",
>  and one "holidays" (plus "Sports" for the various sports clouds).
>
> "Rolf" and "Holidays" are forwarded to the mobile phone, "railways" is
> not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app whether I
> buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.
> The others have no reason to reach the mobile phone.
>

But you don't, for example ,have one for Thomas Cook, One for Tui and so
on under holidays.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 10/12/2021 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic.
>>> You
>>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.
>>
>> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer
>> why I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies
>> fining me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?
>
> I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
> their TVMs are broken.
>

It's a straw man to beat non-goat herders with.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.