Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>
>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is intriguing and
>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>>>
>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and hence
>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for purpose.
>>
>> For you, with your 20th century mindset. They work just fine for the rest
>> of us.
>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>
>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were a
>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still stuck in
>> that era.
>>
>
> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of organisations
> or governments; the converse should be true.
>
> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a competent
> person at a station. A simple transaction should take as little as 10 -
> 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it takes that long to
> find the right website, never mind the time taken to find the required
> stations & tickets.

I 100% agree.

> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one I used
> (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a simple day
> return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time asking if I wanted
> someone's stupid "points" before it would issue a ticket.

Ticket machines seem to have got more user hostile and slower as time has
progressed.
--
Jeremy Double

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sofoo6$vdd$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:50 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2021 07:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of
>>>>>> fiddling with
>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>
>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). More
>>>> importantly, the price differences between them were reasonable. Now
>>>> returns have become Anytimes and are eye wateringly priced (£170 for 100
>>>> miles to London). And there was none of this Advance ticket rubbish that
>>>> restricts you to a given train. The argument for these is it gives people
>>>> the opportunity to buy an affordable ticket. We used to have affordable
>>>> flexible tickets before they were made very expensive. I can see an
>>>> argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
>>>> this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
>>>> can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
>>>> around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
>>>> have a reservation system.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry that is a load of golden age guff. There were more than the just 3
>>> types of ticket even in BR days. Complaints about the fares being too
>>> high were universal than as now.
>>
>> Depends where you live. Down south you appear to have remarkably good value
>> tickets compared to the East Midlands. Bet you don’t pay 85p/mile for an
>> Anytime ticket.
>
> Straw poll: Cambridge to Kings Cross, £53 for 45 miles (it wasn't clear
> if you meant the miles both ways).
>
> Nottingham to Leicester £28 for 21 miles [does seem a bit expensive].

Total mileage, so your Cambridge example would be 90 miles.

Loughborough to London. 100 miles, 200 there and back. Anytime return £188.
94p/mile.
cf HMRC mileage rate 45p/mile.

On 06/12/2021 18:30, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <soko64$ccm$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:52 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>> 2021,  nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been used
>>>> yet.
>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>  How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>>  That's the use-case which started this thread.
>>>
>>>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are
>>>> something  like "your tickets".
>>>
>> Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email address
>> they can access from the phone in their hand. Problem solved.
>
> Only if they've previously set up a special account on that site under
> that address. Otherwise it takes too long. And why should people have to
> bend over backwards for train ticket vendors, when there are thousands
> of other ecommerce services which don't put the same hurdles in the way
> of prospective customers?

You order stuff from Amazon you have to set up an account with email
address and credit card details, same with most e-commerce sites. What
is different about doing it with a railway company, apart, of course, it
would then deprive you of the opportunity to have one of your ludicrous
rants about how the railways are deliberately picking on you?

Anybody who makes a habit of travelling on trains will have such details
already set up.

>
> I know the answer by the way; the railway industry is convinced their
> product is a distress perchance and couldn't give a monkey's about the
> customer.

the 1950s are thataway ⟹

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2021,
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>>>>>
>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and
>>>>> hence
>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>> purpose.
>>>>
>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>> the rest
>>>> of us.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>
>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were a
>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still stuck in
>>>> that era.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>
>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a competent
>>> person at a station. A simple transaction should take as little as 10
>>> - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it takes that long
>>> to find the right website, never mind the time taken to find the
>>> required stations & tickets.
>>>
>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one I
>>> used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a simple
>>> day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time asking if I
>>> wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue a ticket.
>>
>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer nectar
>> points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>
>
> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I couldn't
> remember the name, as I have never used them).
>
> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things, and
> the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>
>

Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them, usually
you have to register your nectar account with the company and they
credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in to the
ticket machine.

NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from Sainsburys.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 06/12/2021 19:02, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sofoo6$vdd$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:50 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/12/2021 07:39, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of
>>>>>>> fiddling with
>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). More
>>>>> importantly, the price differences between them were reasonable. Now
>>>>> returns have become Anytimes and are eye wateringly priced (£170 for 100
>>>>> miles to London). And there was none of this Advance ticket rubbish that
>>>>> restricts you to a given train. The argument for these is it gives people
>>>>> the opportunity to buy an affordable ticket. We used to have affordable
>>>>> flexible tickets before they were made very expensive. I can see an
>>>>> argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
>>>>> this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
>>>>> can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
>>>>> around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
>>>>> have a reservation system.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry that is a load of golden age guff. There were more than the just 3
>>>> types of ticket even in BR days. Complaints about the fares being too
>>>> high were universal than as now.
>>>
>>> Depends where you live. Down south you appear to have remarkably good value
>>> tickets compared to the East Midlands. Bet you don’t pay 85p/mile for an
>>> Anytime ticket.
>>
>> Straw poll: Cambridge to Kings Cross, £53 for 45 miles (it wasn't clear
>> if you meant the miles both ways).
>>
>> Nottingham to Leicester £28 for 21 miles [does seem a bit expensive].
>
> Total mileage, so your Cambridge example would be 90 miles.
>
> Loughborough to London. 100 miles, 200 there and back. Anytime return £188.
> 94p/mile.
> cf HMRC mileage rate 45p/mile.
>

The HMRC mileage rate has been 45p/mile for at least 35 years, so is not
a good yardstick.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
>>> bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
>>> Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
>>> first place.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Those people are a large part of the reason we have penalty fare systems.
>>
>
> I don’t think I object to penalty fares for the deliberately ticketless.
> Where I do object is them being handed out for what might be called
> technical/mistaken infringements of a complex fare system.
>
>

The difficulty it telling the difference between those who made a genuine
mistake, and those who have done exactly the same thing on purpose.

My colleagues in the guard grade tell me they develop the knack of spotting
the genuine vs deliberate, mostly around attitude and demeanour…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and
>>>>>> hence
>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>> the rest
>>>>> of us.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>
>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were a
>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>> stuck in
>>>>> that era.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>
>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a competent
>>>> person at a station. A simple transaction should take as little as
>>>> 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it takes that
>>>> long to find the right website, never mind the time taken to find
>>>> the required stations & tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one I
>>>> used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue a
>>>> ticket.
>>>
>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>
>>
>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>
>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things, and
>> the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>
>>
>
> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them, usually
> you have to register your nectar account with the company and they
> credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in to the
> ticket machine.
>
> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from Sainsburys.
>

I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between companies
that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was using to buy
the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my statements used to
mention nectar points, but I could never be bothered to investigate further.

(There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a discount
-- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:05:45 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <soer6b$iu7$5@dont-email.me>, at 04:35:24 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2
>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are
>>>>>>>>>>>Collection, Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I
>>>>>>>>>>>have issues regarding an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>(although it does qualify as an e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO
>>>>>>>>>>>collection).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent
>>>>>>>>>>>(although the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!)
>>>>>>>>>>>Collection and PDF [so much for GTR's franchise commitment to
>>>>>>>>>>>roll ITSO out across their whole network by about four years ago].
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>>>> my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>>>
>>>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>>>> purchases).
>>>>
>>>> Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>>
>>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>
>>Can't you have an email client on your phone to access the one one specific
>>POP3 account which you tickets get delivered to?
>
>That would mean having a special account for tickets, and apart from
>having to go round all my Apps and browsers changing the login
>credentials, why should I have to, when other much less clunky ways of
>delivering tickets ought to be possible.
>
>Talking of clunky, I parked my car at a station recently, and the
>payment scheme wasn't any of the several apps I've had to set up (almost
>all of them subsequently only to be used once) and the ticket machine
>was very cumbersome. They clearly expect people to learn about it from
>experience, rather than actually having a decent user interface. Good
>news is, the screen was readable, the one at a hospital I visited a
>couple of years ago the backlight appeared to be broken, and in the
>absence of any street lighting, it was impossible to use without a
>torch.
>
Sounds like the machines round the back of Northwick Park Hospital
although I'm not sure if they actually had a backlight.

>Anyway back at the station, rather than issue an actual ticket it did
>everything by ANPR, and had a somewhat hectoring: "You have overstayed
>by 7hrs, that will be £5". But I hadn't overstayed, I was wanting a
>day-ticket (which is £5). Luckily I was driving my own car, so I knew
>the registration number; had it been my wife's I would have no idea.
>Overall it was about a dozen "clicks", whatever happened to machines
>with a big button on the front which you press once for a day-ticket?
>
In the case of ASDA at Clapham Junction, they took them out of use and
covered them up to reduce the opportunity for transmission of COVID.
Other car parks still have the same basic machine but you now wave
your hand in front of a detector. Some also installed ANPR cameras so
those with nothing beyond the free period to pay for only have to wait
for the exit barrier to lift and don't have to exchange viral/faecal
particles on the payment machine.

On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:53:50 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in detail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and
>>>>>> hence
>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>> the rest
>>>>> of us.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>
>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You were a
>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still stuck in
>>>>> that era.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>
>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a competent
>>>> person at a station. A simple transaction should take as little as 10
>>>> - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it takes that long
>>>> to find the right website, never mind the time taken to find the
>>>> required stations & tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one I
>>>> used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a simple
>>>> day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time asking if I
>>>> wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue a ticket.
>>>
>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer nectar
>>> points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>
>>
>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I couldn't
>> remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>
>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things, and
>> the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>
>>
>
>Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them, usually
>you have to register your nectar account with the company and they
>credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in to the
>ticket machine.
>
>NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from Sainsburys.
>
You don't normally have to purposely register/login a Nectar Card with
a seller rather than merely present it (or enter its number in some
odd cases when purchasing as an anonymous "guest") and have it
recognised. The same applies with e.g. discount cards usable with
multiple retailers used either as payment cards or to generate
bar-coded (electronic or paper) vouchers. Registering is more likely
to be a matter of mutual convenience to avoid the faffing about when
there isn't a card reader available, especially with online purchases.

On 06/12/2021 22:13, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in
>>>>>>>> detail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much, and
>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You
>>>>>> were a
>>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>> that era.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>>
>>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a
>>>>> competent person at a station. A simple transaction should take as
>>>>> little as 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it
>>>>> takes that long to find the right website, never mind the time
>>>>> taken to find the required stations & tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one I
>>>>> used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue
>>>>> a ticket.
>>>>
>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>
>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>> and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>> usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>> they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in to
>> the ticket machine.
>>
>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from Sainsburys.
>>
>
> I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between companies
> that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was using to buy
> the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my statements used to
> mention nectar points, but I could never be bothered to investigate
> further.
>
> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a discount
> -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>
>

The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
trying to rip you off.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
> 2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>> 2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been used yet.
>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>
>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>
>> I have never encountered an email client that does not, by default,
>> sort by time/date with newest on top.
>
> You need to get out more, and also realise that email users sometimes
> don't use the default settings.

Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
problem would not present itself. That's your free choice, and perhaps
the other benefits of organising yourself this way make it worthwhile.
The implication of this is that it is not possible to extrapolate from
your sepcific unsatisfactory user experience to the wider population.
This means that it is less likely that a large public facing
organisation is going to make choices in how they do business to
accommodate your unique way of doing things, as opposed to going with a
solution that works for everyone else. The question you have to
consider is whether the drawbacks of organising yourself in a way that
creates these problems provides wider benefits that outweigh these
drawbacks.

Robin

On 07/12/2021 07:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 06/12/2021 22:13, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in
>>>>>>>>> detail.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much,
>>>>>>>> and hence
>>>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You
>>>>>>> were a
>>>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>>> that era.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a
>>>>>> competent person at a station. A simple transaction should take as
>>>>>> little as 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it
>>>>>> takes that long to find the right website, never mind the time
>>>>>> taken to find the required stations & tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one
>>>>>> I used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue
>>>>>> a ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>>
>>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>>> and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>>> usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>>> they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in
>>> to the ticket machine.
>>>
>>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from
>>> Sainsburys.
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between
>> companies that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was
>> using to buy the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my
>> statements used to mention nectar points, but I could never be
>> bothered to investigate further.
>>
>> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>> discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>>
>>
>
> The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
> you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
> save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
> you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
> trying to rip you off.
>

As I don't use Sainsburys, it is hardly surprising that I knew nothing
about Nectar points

In message <sodem5$qt$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:49 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodd60$l4q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:30:09 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 03.12.2021 um 14:39 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>>>> In message <sod3o8$i0o$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:49:12 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> You can even do it at home and print a paper version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s nothing to stop Roland forwarding the email from his neutered
>>>>>> work phone to something more adequate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from that being against the rules from the IT department. "NEVER
>>>>> forward emails to a private email account."
>>>>
>>>> The commandment immediately above being: "Never use your work
>>>> infrastructrue for private purposes".
>>>>
>>>> Most other companies have rules like
>>>> "Confidential or internal information must not be sent to any e-mail
>>>> account outside the company. Do not forward mails containing such
>>>> information to your private IT infrastructure or email accounts."
>>>>
>>>> Formally, this forbids me from synching my work calendar with my private
>>>> smart phone because the titles of some meetings are "internal"
>>>> (customers or competitors could theoretically learn things they are not
>>>> supposed to know - e.g. that customer 'XYZ' has certain IT problems or
>>>> that we consider a certain situation to be a bug before we have formally
>>>> acknowledged that to the customer).
>>>> Duplicating my free/busy information to the private smart phone would be
>>>> allowed though.
>>>
>>> Well exactly. Every *sensible* prohibition I’ve seen (I accept that the
>>> security services etc may differ) forbids auto forwarding emails to your
>>> private account and manually forwarding confidential email. You might have
>>> good cause to forward some emails to your private account, such as sending
>>> a copy of your P60 or pay slips that can only be accessed on the company
>>> Intranet.
>>
>> The employer would argue that you should print them off *from the
>> Intranet*, or perhaps point out that *they* have sent you copies to your
>> personal email [yes, I know, but banning all employees from sending any
>> external emails, cramps the style a bit], if you could only be bothered
>> to read them.
>>
>>> If your employer forbids you from forwarding a train ticket it
>>> might be good grounds to ponder a more sensible employer.
>>
>> Ah yes, the rather last-century "I'm C++ programmer in such demand I can
>> walk into a better job tomorrow" argument.
>
>The idea that you print a P60 or a pay slip rather than keep an electronic
>copy is a bit old school these days.

The solution, I think you'll find, is that the HR department will email
a copy of the pay slip to the employee's *private* address, and it won't
touch the work email address at all. So no rule has been infringed. One
organisation I know sends such emails encrypted, and employees have to
enrol in some whacky scheme to be able to read them. But at least the
information in them is much less likely to leak.

And many will indeed *also* provide them on the Intranet, but the
expectation there is for the employee to either print them off, or email
a copy home. Note, neither of those activities involves FORWARDING an
email from their work email account.

>Not a bit of dead tree has passed between me and my accountant for a
>number of years now.

Based on my observations, there are still plenty of employers sending
P60 and Payslips by snail mail.

>Au contraire - power is in the hands of employees at the moment. People are
>changing jobs in record numbers. Silly rules make good employees leave,
>leaving you with the rule observant duffers.

Lots of people in low-paid jobs are changing, because there's big
shortages in hospitality etc. Also drivers (of various kinds, apparently
there's a shortage of 160k taxi drivers because so many got other jobs
during lockdown). And this all skews the statistics.

There are still large numbers of people in middle class career jobs
where resigning in a huff would be very theatrical, but results in them
being voluntarily unemployed - which is rarely a good look.

In terms of employment mobility during the pandemic - if it's not a
"hands on" role like being an Amazon delivery driver or a barman in
Wetherspoons, then there's a significant extra overhead involved in both
the [remote-access] recruitment and induction process.

From my observations, this does *not*, however, often translate into
employers being more receptive to being blackmailed by existing
employees when it comes to pay, T&C, or facilities provided for home
working. There's still a significant degree of "who blinks first - and
it's unlikely to be the employer". Because word will get round, and
cause an avalanche.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sodf33$46u$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:02:43 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>Roland seems to think we're still in the 1970s. Anyone with useful
>skills is in high demand now.

High demand does not equate to a salary commensurate.

One of the features of the current landscape is organisations which for
various reasons (be that public sector with fixed pay scales, or vulture
capitalists who refuse to blink first) cannot offer salaries to attract
those who would be tempted to make themselves voluntarily unemployed by
throwing a strop against their current employer.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sodovq$d1s$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:51:38 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my
>>desktop.
>
>Meanwhile in the real world I get such emails both on my phone and on
>the desktop, yes you can do such things now. If I have to then
>forwarding stuff from the phone is a couple of finger taps.

Yes, it works for some people who don't get hundreds of emails a day.

But even then it's nevertheless fiddlier than forwarding on a PC -
assuming you have taken the precaution of installing a better than
non-optimal email client on that PC.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sodpfr$im5$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:11 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>
>It is?

Clearly. And that's before we start looking at forwarding emails
from a phone in a snowstorm. Yes, I have gloves with special
conducting fingertips, but all that does it make it eventually
possible, not easily possible.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sodpfq$im5$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:00:10 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>
>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>
>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>> associated with it.
>>>
>>> And that is a problem how?
>>
>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>> my phone.
>
>So create, perhaps, rolandstickets@hotmail.co.uk and access it via
><http://www.hotmail.co.uk>, or Outlook app.

Creating multiple email accounts is easy. Managing them over the years
ahead is an extra load. And what's so special about the railways that we
have to jump through these hoops, simply because they can't be bothered
to deliver working TVMs at the station?
--
Roland Perry

In message <soevce$ohu$1@dont-email.me>, at 05:46:54 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sodffq$7c0$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:09:30 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>>>>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>
>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>
>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>e-ticket,
>>>>> for example).
>>>>
>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>
>>>
>>> "How to get your ticket(s)
>>> E-Ticket
>>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>>> it. Guide to E-Tickets
>>> Smartcard: load from the Greater Anglia app (Android or
>>> ¡OS 13 and above)
>>> You can load onto your Smartcard with just a tap. Please note only 5 smart
>>> products can be loaded onto your Smartcard"
>>>
>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>
>>> "E-Ticket
>>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>>> it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>>>
>>>> Ely to Kings Cross
>>>
>>> "E-Ticket
>>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>>> it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>>>
>>>> or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>
>>> "E-Ticket
>>> We will email your ticket to you - show it on your phone or print
>>> it. Guide to E-Tickets"
>>
>> What are you using - I picked the most obvious: Greater Anglia's
>> website.
>
>GA App.

Hmm, GA suffering from left-hand/right-hand issues it seems.

Can't get the staff!!
--
Roland Perry

In message <sokh3v$tt8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:15 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 06/12/2021 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sodlg7$m2g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:07 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>machine
>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>>>might  buy
>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds,
>>>>>>the  PDF
>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you
>>>>>>don't need an
>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>
>>>>  My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>>>general  public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far
>>>>as possible  pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>  Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even
>>>>without the  added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are
>>>>possible, and  others aren't (and you can't tell which until after
>>>>quite a  while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface
>>>>designed by a  Vogon.
>>>
>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on
>>>my phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>
>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets
>>>so they are easily accessible on my mobile.  It would be even more
>>>useful for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far
>>>as I know.
>>>
>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>> Once upon a time I used to create lots of unique email addresses,
>>for different ecommerce sites, mainly to see if any of them leaked to
>>spammers (they didn't, apart from one).
>> But it doesn't scale.
>> What's so special about train tickets that *I* have to bend over
>>backwards for *them*, rather than eBay, AirBnB, Tesco, and about two
>>hundred other people I might be buying things from online?
>> I did experiment, as an exception, with making some new email
>>addresses for the purposes of delay/repay claims, for myself and
>>wife, at three different TOCs; so that's six new addresses. But all
>>it did was convince me the tail was wagging the dog.

>> ps There's another wrinkle to this: my domain email is not
>>associated
>>    with my phone. Not only does Google go out of its way to force me to
>>    invent a new gmail address for the purpose, it would be completely
>>    unmanageable (aka yet again, doesn't scale) for my correspondence
>>    emails to all end up on a phone.
>
>Once again you are creating non-existent problems. One email address
>you only use for tickest, use IMAP so you can get it on your
>desktop/laptop/tablet and phone and Bob's a near relative. Works for
>the rest of the world.

If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it might,
just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a hundred, it's a
bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called this week to expect
me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.

Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
£100 fine.
--
Roland Perry

On 07/12/2021 17:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sokh3v$tt8$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:20:15 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 06/12/2021 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sodlg7$m2g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:07 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>> 2021,  martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is
>>>>>>>> last-minute
>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>>>> might  buy
>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, the
>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you
>>>>>>> don't  need an
>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>
>>>>>  My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>>>> general  public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far
>>>>> as possible  pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>  Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without
>>>>> the  added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible,
>>>>> and  others aren't (and you can't tell which until after quite a
>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed
>>>>> by a  Vogon.
>>>>
>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available
>>>> on my phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>
>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets
>>>> so  they are easily accessible on my mobile.  It would be even more
>>>> useful  for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far
>>>> as I know.
>>>>
>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>  Once upon a time I used to create lots of unique email addresses,
>>> for  different ecommerce sites, mainly to see if any of them leaked
>>> to spammers (they didn't, apart from one).
>>>  But it doesn't scale.
>>>  What's so special about train tickets that *I* have to bend over
>>> backwards for *them*, rather than eBay, AirBnB, Tesco, and about two
>>> hundred other people I might be buying things from online?
>>>  I did experiment, as an exception, with making some new email
>>> addresses  for the purposes of delay/repay claims, for myself and
>>> wife, at three  different TOCs; so that's six new addresses. But all
>>> it did was convince  me the tail was wagging the dog.
>
>>>  ps There's another wrinkle to this: my domain email is not associated
>>>     with my phone. Not only does Google go out of its way to force me to
>>>     invent a new gmail address for the purpose, it would be completely
>>>     unmanageable (aka yet again, doesn't scale) for my correspondence
>>>     emails to all end up on a phone.
>>
>> Once again you are creating non-existent problems. One email address
>> you only use for tickest, use IMAP so you can get it on your
>> desktop/laptop/tablet and phone and Bob's a near relative. Works for
>> the rest of the world.
>
> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it might,
> just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a hundred, it's a
> bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called this week to expect
> me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>
> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
> £100 fine.

You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
the car.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 10:58:17 +0000, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 07/12/2021 07:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 06/12/2021 22:13, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in
>>>>>>>>>> detail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much,
>>>>>>>>> and hence
>>>>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You
>>>>>>>> were a
>>>>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>>>> that era.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a
>>>>>>> competent person at a station. A simple transaction should take as
>>>>>>> little as 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it
>>>>>>> takes that long to find the right website, never mind the time
>>>>>>> taken to find the required stations & tickets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one
>>>>>>> I used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue
>>>>>>> a ticket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>>>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>>>
>>>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>>>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>>>> and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>>>> usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>>>> they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in
>>>> to the ticket machine.
>>>>
>>>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from
>>>> Sainsburys.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between
>>> companies that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was
>>> using to buy the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my
>>> statements used to mention nectar points, but I could never be
>>> bothered to investigate further.
>>>
>>> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>>> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>>> discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
>> you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
>> save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
>> you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
>> trying to rip you off.
>>
>
>As I don't use Sainsburys, it is hardly surprising that I knew nothing
>about Nectar points
>
You seem to be describing Tesco who issue two types of voucher :-
1.Money off, in proportion to the accumulated points.
2.Money off, not obviously related to points and valid for limited
periods for purchases over a certain amount.
The second type seems to have arrived more often in recent times.

In message <0c2tqgh46kl0dehos0srkgpl6bpg670cgc@4ax.com>, at 22:16:41 on
Mon, 6 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:

>>Good news is, the screen was readable, the one at a hospital I visited
>>a couple of years ago the backlight appeared to be broken, and in the
>>absence of any street lighting, it was impossible to use without a
>>torch.
>>
>Sounds like the machines round the back of Northwick Park Hospital
>although I'm not sure if they actually had a backlight.

I suppose it's possible they never had a backlight - I just assumed that
given they systemically demand day patients arrive before dawn in the
Winter, that they'd have equipped the ticket machines appropriately.

--
Roland Perry

In message <solpeo$47p$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:48:40 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 06/12/2021 18:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <soko64$ccm$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:20:52 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 06/12/2021 09:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>2021,  nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>used yet.
>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>>  How well does that work when you are stood in the station car
>>>>park, having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the
>>>>ticket machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>>>  That's the use-case which started this thread.
>>>>
>>>>> Occasionaly a slight annoyance is when the e-mail titles are
>>>>>something  like "your tickets".
>>>>
>>> Anybody sensible standing in the car park will use an email address
>>>they can access from the phone in their hand. Problem solved.
>> Only if they've previously set up a special account on that site
>>under that address. Otherwise it takes too long. And why should
>>people have to bend over backwards for train ticket vendors, when
>>there are thousands of other ecommerce services which don't put the
>>same hurdles in the way of prospective customers?
>
>You order stuff from Amazon you have to set up an account with email
>address and credit card details, same with most e-commerce sites. What
>is different about doing it with a railway company, apart, of course,
>it would then deprive you of the opportunity to have one of your
>ludicrous rants about how the railways are deliberately picking on you?

Yes, but it doesn't have to be a special Amazon-only email address.
Because the Amazon delivery driver doesn't insist I show them a pdf
order acknowledgement on my phone before handing over the package.

>Anybody who makes a habit of travelling on trains will have such
>details already set up.

Ah! You've finally got the memo. Most people don't have a habit of
travelling on trains. Unless they are a commuter with a season
ticket, when this entire discussion is moot.
--
Roland Perry

On 07/12/2021 18:52, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2021 10:58:17 +0000, Bevan Price
> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2021 07:41, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2021 22:13, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2021 19:53, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 18:43, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 17:22, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 14:29, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 10:34, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sodekh$ds$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:57 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You've not followed the thread very well, have you?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your tortuous inability to relate to the 21st century is
>>>>>>>>>>> intriguing and
>>>>>>>>>>> amusing, but not something I choose to study and memorise in
>>>>>>>>>>> detail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The real is problem is I relate to the 21st Century too much,
>>>>>>>>>> and hence
>>>>>>>>>> appreciate why it is, that so many IT solutions are not fit for
>>>>>>>>>> purpose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For you, with your 20th century mindset.  They work just fine for
>>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>> of us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps you could remember that?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We all know that you struggle with 21st century technology. You
>>>>>>>>> were a
>>>>>>>>> pioneer in low cost electronics 30-40 years ago, and are still
>>>>>>>>> stuck in
>>>>>>>>> that era.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. Some people think that we exist for the convenience of
>>>>>>>> organisations or governments; the converse should be true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The easiest and quickest way to buy rail tickets is from a
>>>>>>>> competent person at a station. A simple transaction should take as
>>>>>>>> little as 10 - 15 seconds. Unless you have superfast broadband, it
>>>>>>>> takes that long to find the right website, never mind the time
>>>>>>>> taken to find the required stations & tickets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ticket machines at stations can be almost as fiddly. The last one
>>>>>>>> I used (pre-Covid) eventually let me find the ticket I wanted (a
>>>>>>>> simple day return, not operator-specific), and then wasted time
>>>>>>>> asking if I wanted someone's stupid "points" before it would issue
>>>>>>>> a ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where was that, I've never been offred any sort of points at a
>>>>>>> physical ticket machine. Can think of a few websites that offer
>>>>>>> nectar points, IIRC gWr is one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Runcorn (before Covid) -- and it was offering nectar points (I
>>>>>> couldn't remember the name, as I have never used them).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was buying a day return to Crewe, where I intended to buy a West
>>>>>> Midlands Day Ranger ticket (The machines did not sell such things,
>>>>>> and the Runcorn ticket office was a little late in opening.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting, never come across ticket machine that offered them,
>>>>> usually you have to register your nectar account with the company and
>>>>> they credit them on each purchase but for that you'd have to log in
>>>>> to the ticket machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> NB, The reason I know about them is that SWMBO gets them from
>>>>> Sainsburys.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if there was some "dodgy" information sharing between
>>>> companies that allowed the machine to recognise the credit card I was
>>>> using to buy the tickets ? I vaguely remember that one of my
>>>> statements used to mention nectar points, but I could never be
>>>> bothered to investigate further.
>>>>
>>>> (There often seems to be a snag to such schemes, as I found with a
>>>> supermarket card; collect enough points and you qualified for a
>>>> discount -- but only if I spent far more than I needed.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The nectar scheme allowed you to build up basically a cash lump sum that
>>> you could use to part pay your next Sainsburys bill. My wife used to
>>> save the points up and use them to pay for the Xmas shopping. I suspect
>>> you didn't read up on the scheme properly and just assumed they were
>>> trying to rip you off.
>>>
>>
>> As I don't use Sainsburys, it is hardly surprising that I knew nothing
>> about Nectar points
>>
> You seem to be describing Tesco who issue two types of voucher :-
> 1.Money off, in proportion to the accumulated points.
> 2.Money off, not obviously related to points and valid for limited
> periods for purchases over a certain amount.
> The second type seems to have arrived more often in recent times.
>

I am reliably (!) informed they both do that :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <son784$mkp$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:10 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>used yet.
>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>
>>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>>>having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>>>machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?

>>> I have never encountered an email client that does not, by default,
>>>sort by time/date with newest on top.

>> You need to get out more, and also realise that email users
>>sometimes don't use the default settings.
>
>Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
>choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
>because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
>problem would not present itself.

My email configuration is the one which works best for 99.9% of the
emails I receive.

>That's your free choice, and perhaps the other benefits of organising
>yourself this way make it worthwhile. The implication of this is that
>it is not possible to extrapolate from your sepcific unsatisfactory
>user experience to the wider population. This means that it is less
>likely that a large public facing organisation is going to make choices
>in how they do business to accommodate your unique way of doing things,
>as opposed to going with a solution that works for everyone else. The
>question you have to consider is whether the drawbacks of organising
>yourself in a way that creates these problems provides wider benefits
>that outweigh these drawbacks.

A bit repetitive there, old chap.

And no, I'm not going to organise my entire email around the particular
requirements demanded by a self-centred once every six month
distress-purchase supplier such as Greater Anglia, who I am only using
on the smartphone because they can't be bothered to:

(a) Keep their ticket machines working adequately and
(b) Have a fall back for when they aren't working, other than
fining their customers £100.

A masterclass in telling your potential customers that you really wish
they drove, instead.
--
Roland Perry