On 29/11/2021 12:09, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so2eme$8ot$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:48:30 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 10:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so2a8r$coh$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:58 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>>>> Am 29.11.2021 um 11:23 schrieb martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>> train  really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>> on  the  Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people  to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>> before  it reaches that stage.
>>>>
>>>> Is it typical in UK that there is not step in between "the
>>>> gripperissues a penalty fare" and "being prosecuted"?
>>>>
>>>> In Germany, the escalation steps are
>>>> 1) the gripper issues a penalty fare
>>>> 2) you challenge the penalty fare in writing, giving meaningful reasons
>>>> 3) the back office decides whether a penalty fare is appropriate
>>>> 4) prosecution
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it, the back office withdraws any penalty fares when
>>>> there is a reasonable doubt whether the technical infrastructure was
>>>> working correctly.
>
>>>  The issue here is how many people are confident at doing step #2,
>>> what  evidence do they have to support the appeal, and how often are
>>> they  upheld (or more pertinently, wrongly not upheld).
>>
>> The issue here is whether it is a real problem or just
>> scare-mongering. Fare evasion is a real problem, do we just ignore it
>> on the off-chance that one person in a thousand might have their
>> tender feelings hurt?
>
> It's not a case of hurt feelings, but the hassle of having to appeal and
> the stress of wondering if they'll accept what may well be anecdotal
> evidence. And if they don't a £100 penalty to pay.

I don't care about that I want to know if there is an actual problem or
we are just moaning about hypothetica cases

>
> Perhaps this increase will trigger a little more engagement in the
> public, reporting when things have gone wrong (like broken machines,
> excessive queues, and ultimately unfair penalties).
>
> While I accept there's a problem with systemic fare evasion by a
> minority, bear-traps for the well-meaning infrequent traveller are
> not good either.

So we are just dealing with hypothetical problems then.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <so2gml$o5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:22:45 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/11/2021 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <so2ef7$8ot$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:39 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Metrolink,  while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>caught  out  due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>/ nil  staff in ticket  offices, failure to believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>passengers when  ticket machines are  misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>when a
>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>unsuccessfully  prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>train really has been  told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>on the Nether is out of  action again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>
>>>>  You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case
>>>>study.
>>>
>>> That was how many decades ago?

>> Have the basic underlying rules changed since then?
>
>If the best you can do is refer to an event many years ago, I'll take
>it there is no real problem.

You can take whatever you like. I see honest passengers really
concerned at the conflict between "compulsory ticket area" signage,
and the inability to buy tickets. This needs resolving.

Back in the day when such zones were introduced, there were also "Permit
to travel" machines, but for whatever reason they are no longer.

A major change to the penalty fare should really trigger a major review
of that as well.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <so2gml$o5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:22:45 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so2ef7$8ot$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:39 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink,  while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught  out  due  to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>> / nil  staff in ticket  offices, failure to believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> passengers when  ticket machines are  misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>> train really has been  told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>> on the Nether is out of  action again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>>>>>  You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case
>>>>> study.
>>>>
>>>> That was how many decades ago?
>
>>> Have the basic underlying rules changed since then?
>>
>> If the best you can do is refer to an event many years ago, I'll take
>> it there is no real problem.
>
> You can take whatever you like. I see honest passengers really
> concerned at the conflict between "compulsory ticket area" signage,
> and the inability to buy tickets. This needs resolving.
>
> Back in the day when such zones were introduced, there were also "Permit
> to travel" machines, but for whatever reason they are no longer.
>
> A major change to the penalty fare should really trigger a major review
> of that as well.

ScotRail’s major stations are mostly barriered or, as at Waverley, they put
on a line of ticket-issuing staff when a ScR train arrives at or leaves
from an unbarriered platform. They also have ticket desks train-side of
the barriers so, if you’ve neglected or been prevented from buying a ticket
you can get one on arrival. They also (often) sell tickets on the train.
AFAICT they don’t try to penalise unticketed travel.

Most recent anecdata: I just caught a train at North Berwick (terminus).
I’d have missed it if I’d stopped to buy a ticket from the machine. I
expected there would be a ticket check on board, there often is, but not on
this occasion. I had no difficulty buying a single with a rail card from
one of the ticket sellers at the end of the unbarriered platform when we
arrived at Waverley. I was asking for a ticket from the far end of the
train’s route; I don’t know whether there would have been any question if
I’d asked for one from an intermediate station. There didn’t seem to be
any liaison with the train guard (fsvo “guard”).

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 29/11/2021 12:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <so2gml$o5f$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:22:45 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/11/2021 11:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <so2ef7$8ot$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:39 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so28cg$vcb$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:00:48 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov  2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink,  while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught  out  due  to railway incompetence, e.g.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> insufficient / nil  staff in ticket  offices, failure to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe passengers when  ticket machines are  misbehaving,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>> train really has been  told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>> on  the Nether is out of  action again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people  to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully  prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>>>>>  You'd have to ask them. But I think Cherie Booth was an early case
>>>>> study.
>>>>
>>>> That was how many decades ago?
>
>>>  Have the basic underlying rules changed since then?
>>
>> If the best you can do is refer to an event many years ago, I'll take
>> it there is no real problem.
>
> You can take whatever you like. I see honest passengers really
> concerned at the conflict between "compulsory ticket area" signage,
> and the inability to buy tickets. This needs resolving.

Where do you see this concern?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <so337i$3fc$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:38:57 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> You can take whatever you like. I see honest passengers really
>> concerned at the conflict between "compulsory ticket area" signage,
>> and the inability to buy tickets. This needs resolving.
>
>Where do you see this concern?

Amongst fellow passengers.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>> the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for people
>>>> to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being unsuccessfully
>>>> prosecuted.
>>>
>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up before
>> it reaches that stage.
>
> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I want
> to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>

Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was "on
the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."

In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce complicated
ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make mistakes - and
treat them all as if they were criminals, even when much of the blame
lies with bad managements.

The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was inevitably
going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the correct fare.

On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29 Nov
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>> the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>> people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>
>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>
>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>> before it reaches that stage.
>>
>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I want
>> to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>
>
>
> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was "on
> the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."

Another fan site?

>
> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce complicated
> ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make mistakes - and
> treat them all as if they were criminals, even when much of the blame
> lies with bad managements.

That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line, from
machines at the stations and so on. Major stations still have ticket
offices. What is difficult about that. People can cope with complicated
ticketing systems when it comes to booking a trip to the Costa del
Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so difficult to buy a train ticket?

>
> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was inevitably
> going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the correct fare.

Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
many more people or just sit and whinge about it? And, just to annoy
Recliner, where are we going to find all these people to sit at Much
Binding in the Marsh twiddling their thumbs in the hope that someone
might want to buy a ticket?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 29/11/2021 19:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in
>>>>>>>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>>> the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>> people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>> before it reaches that stage.
>>>
>>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I
>>> want to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was "on
>> the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>
> Another fan site?
>
>>
>> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
>> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce
>> complicated ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make
>> mistakes - and treat them all as if they were criminals, even when
>> much of the blame lies with bad managements.
>
> That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line, from
> machines at the stations and so on. Major stations still have ticket
> offices. What is difficult about that. People can cope with complicated
> ticketing systems when it comes to booking a trip to the Costa del
> Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so difficult to buy a train ticket?
>
>>
>> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
>> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was
>> inevitably going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the
>> correct fare.
>
> Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
> many more people or just sit and whinge about it? And, just to annoy
> Recliner, where are we going to find all these people to sit at Much
> Binding in the Marsh twiddling their thumbs in the hope that someone
> might want to buy a ticket?
>

No point in continuing arguments with management apologists. No matter
what I write, you will disagree.

On 29/11/2021 21:06, Bevan Price wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 19:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>> on the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>> people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>> before it reaches that stage.
>>>>
>>>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I
>>>> want to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was
>>> "on the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>>
>> Another fan site?
>>
>>>
>>> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
>>> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce
>>> complicated ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make
>>> mistakes - and treat them all as if they were criminals, even when
>>> much of the blame lies with bad managements.
>>
>> That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line,
>> from machines at the stations and so on. Major stations still have
>> ticket offices. What is difficult about that. People can cope with
>> complicated ticketing systems when it comes to booking a trip to the
>> Costa del Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so difficult to buy a
>> train ticket?
>>
>>>
>>> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
>>> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was
>>> inevitably going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the
>>> correct fare.
>>
>> Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
>> many more people or just sit and whinge about it? And, just to annoy
>> Recliner, where are we going to find all these people to sit at Much
>> Binding in the Marsh twiddling their thumbs in the hope that someone
>> might want to buy a ticket?
>>
>
> No point in continuing arguments with management apologists. No matter
> what I write, you will disagree.
>

Another one who descends to insults when you have no convincing argument.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 21:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 19:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>>> on the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>> people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>>> before it reaches that stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I
>>>>> want to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was
>>>> "on the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>>>
>>> Another fan site?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
>>>> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce
>>>> complicated ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make
>>>> mistakes - and treat them all as if they were criminals, even when
>>>> much of the blame lies with bad managements.
>>>
>>> That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line,
>>> from machines at the stations and so on. Major stations still have
>>> ticket offices. What is difficult about that. People can cope with
>>> complicated ticketing systems when it comes to booking a trip to the
>>> Costa del Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so difficult to buy a
>>> train ticket?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
>>>> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was
>>>> inevitably going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the
>>>> correct fare.
>>>
>>> Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
>>> many more people or just sit and whinge about it? And, just to annoy
>>> Recliner, where are we going to find all these people to sit at Much
>>> Binding in the Marsh twiddling their thumbs in the hope that someone
>>> might want to buy a ticket?
>>>
>>
>> No point in continuing arguments with management apologists. No matter
>> what I write, you will disagree.
>>
>
> Another one who descends to insults when you have no convincing argument.
>

How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
were invented?

On 29/11/2021 21:52, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 21:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 19:48, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>>>> Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caught out  due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>>>> people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>>>> train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop
>>>>>>>>>>> on the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>> people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>> unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>>>> before it reaches that stage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I
>>>>>> want to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was
>>>>> "on the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>>>>
>>>> Another fan site?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
>>>>> robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce
>>>>> complicated ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make
>>>>> mistakes - and treat them all as if they were criminals, even when
>>>>> much of the blame lies with bad managements.
>>>>
>>>> That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line,
>>>> from machines at the stations and so on. Major stations still have
>>>> ticket offices. What is difficult about that. People can cope with
>>>> complicated ticketing systems when it comes to booking a trip to the
>>>> Costa del Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so difficult to buy a
>>>> train ticket?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
>>>>> tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was
>>>>> inevitably going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the
>>>>> correct fare.
>>>>
>>>> Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
>>>> many more people or just sit and whinge about it? And, just to annoy
>>>> Recliner, where are we going to find all these people to sit at Much
>>>> Binding in the Marsh twiddling their thumbs in the hope that someone
>>>> might want to buy a ticket?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No point in continuing arguments with management apologists. No matter
>>> what I write, you will disagree.
>>>
>>
>> Another one who descends to insults when you have no convincing argument.
>>
>
> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
> were invented?
>

Far more prosecutions and higher fines.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:28:33 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester Metrolink, while
>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>
>>>>>   <https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>
>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get caught out due
>>>> to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient / nil staff in ticket
>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket machines are
>>>> misbehaving, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>
>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>
>
>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>
None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
Freedom Pass.

In message <so3aq3$st8$3@dont-email.me>, at 19:48:19 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/11/2021 19:06, Bevan Price wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 11:46, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 10:23, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 10:00, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:49, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <so27d4$pig$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:04 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 29/11/2021 09:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <so22vh$udj$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:28:33 on Mon, 29
>>>>>>>>Nov 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 23:33, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:51:32 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>>>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/11/2021 06:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or £50 if paid within 21 days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently this aligns National Rail with Manchester
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Metrolink, while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TfL has an £80 penalty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>><https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-penalty-fare-value-
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reform/outcome/penalty-fare-value-reform-consultation-outcome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK if only genuine fare dodgers are penalised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But inevitably many  honest passengers are likely to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>caught out  due to railway incompetence, e.g. insufficient
>>>>>>>>>>>> offices, failure to believe passengers when ticket
>>>>>>>>>>>>machines are misbehaving, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And how many times does that actually happen?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often
>>>>>>>>>>when a
>>>>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>>>people to  use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted,  or worrying if the gripper on the
>>>>>>>>train really has been told the ticket  machine at Much Wallop on
>>>>>>>>the Nether is out of action again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't ask if they had been successfully prosecuted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being successfully prosecuted isn't the only disincentive for
>>>>>>people to use the trains. It's pretty stressful being
>>>>>>unsuccessfully prosecuted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop avoiding the question, how many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>> Most people cannot afford to defend in court so the just pay up
>>>>before it reaches that stage.
>>>
>>> Again, how many people are involved? I know all the edge cases, I
>>>want to know whether it is a real problem or just another ukr moan.
>>>
>> Plenty of times according to another site I visit. One comment was
>>"on the railways you are guilty until proved innocent."
>
>Another fan site?
>
>> In my opinion, some railway managements are no better than historic
>>robber barons. They make it harder to buy tickets, introduce
>>complicated ticketing systems, and than blame passengers who make
>>mistakes - and treat them all as if they were criminals, even when
>>much of the blame lies with bad managements.
>
>That's just self-justifying waffle. You can buy tickets oonn line, from
>machines at the stations and so on.

What's difficult is that m-ticketing is very patchy. Greater Anglia, for
example, last time I looked, had three completely incompatible lists of
which flows had them available. At that point it's not surprising people
stick to paper ticketing.

[Let's park the "not everyone is joined at the hip to a smartphone"
thing for now]

>Major stations still have ticket offices. What is difficult about that.
>People can cope with complicated ticketing systems when it comes to
>booking a trip to the Costa del Fortune, how come it suddenly gets so
>difficult to buy a train ticket?

Because people expect to invest some time researching their holiday
bookings, plus by and large those booking sites are more user-friendly
than train ticketing ones.

I spent about 20 minutes yesterday in an ultimately futile attempt to
buy some Cambs-Z1 tickets online (see another thread) and I'm used to
the systems. Woe betide someone who isn't, or is perhaps at the station
five minutes before the train is due to leave, and doesn't have a
printer about their person.

That exercise was worth it (fsvo) because the total fare was in the
region of £100. The most common ticket I'm likely to buy is £2, after
railcard discount, and why should that be more effort to get than bus
ticket?

>> The solution to fare evasion is to pay trained staff to sell/check
>>tickets before journeys start. Removal of too many staff was
>>inevitably going to tempt a minority to try to evade paying the
>>correct fare.
>
>Are you going to pay the much higher fares involved with employing so
>many more people or just sit and whinge about it?

This is the conundrum. Either fare evasion is a huge problem costing the
network billions, or they can employ some staff (or other resources) to
drift towards a "more carrot, less stick" environment.

There's still quite a few people who have the view "if they can't be
bothered to sell_me/check_my ticket, why should I bother to pay".
Although that's a different problem to not being able to buy one in the
first place.

--
Roland Perry

In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>were invented?

In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
expressly for that purpose.
--
Roland Perry

In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>
>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>
>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>Freedom Pass.

How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?

One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?

This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <so3i39$h47$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:41 on Mon, 29 Nov
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> How did we manage in years gone by, before such things as penalty fares
>> were invented?
>
> In London and SE by being happy to let people pay at their destination.
> Whatever TfL was called that week even had "excess fares" windows
> expressly for that purpose.

See description of ScotRail setup in another subthread.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>
>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>
>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>Freedom Pass.
>
>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>
They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.
It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
interpretation of what is your usual residence.

>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>
No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.

"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
trams."
https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets

>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

In message <pegfqgdvhogujdojld1la6idac32145aev@4ax.com>, at 18:59:56 on
Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>
>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>
>>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>
>>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>>Freedom Pass.
>>
>>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>>
>They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.

As you well know, the Freedom Pass has much wider availability than a
regional ENCTS bus pass.

>It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
>own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
>common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
>interpretation of what is your usual residence.
>
>>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>>
>No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
>with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
>bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.
>
>"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
>trams."
>https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets

Does that include people illegally using mobility scooters, because they
aren't officially invalids?

>>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:09:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <pegfqgdvhogujdojld1la6idac32145aev@4ax.com>, at 18:59:56 on
>Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>>>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>
>>>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>>>Freedom Pass.
>>>
>>>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>>>
>>They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.
>
>As you well know, the Freedom Pass has much wider availability than a
>regional ENCTS bus pass.
>
As do various other concessionary schemes.

>>It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
>>own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
>>common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
>>interpretation of what is your usual residence.
>>
>>>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>>>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>>>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>>>
>>No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
>>with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
>>bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.
>>
>>"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
>>trams."
>>https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets
>
>Does that include people illegally using mobility scooters, because they
>aren't officially invalids?
>
It seems to be based on trust rather than the requirement for medical
certification as you board the bus.
My observation suggests most with such scooters are likely to be old
enough for a 60+ Oyster anyway. Most younger people seem to have
fairly obvious conditions so those on the fiddle are probably minimal.
With wheelchairs you would also have the difficulty of checking the
card of someone who has boarded at the rear doors and won't be able to
get near the driver.

>>>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

In message <nnifqgds5mvd3dvqrn28b4aq64vm3a5u3j@4ax.com>, at 19:29:20 on
Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:09:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <pegfqgdvhogujdojld1la6idac32145aev@4ax.com>, at 18:59:56 on
>>Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>>>>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>>>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>>>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>>>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>>>>Freedom Pass.
>>>>
>>>>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>>>>
>>>They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.
>>
>>As you well know, the Freedom Pass has much wider availability than a
>>regional ENCTS bus pass.
>>
>As do various other concessionary schemes.
>
>>>It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
>>>own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
>>>common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
>>>interpretation of what is your usual residence.
>>>
>>>>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>>>>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>>>>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>>>>
>>>No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
>>>with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
>>>bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.
>>>
>>>"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
>>>trams."
>>>https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets
>>
>>Does that include people illegally using mobility scooters, because they
>>aren't officially invalids?
>>
>It seems to be based on trust rather than the requirement for medical
>certification as you board the bus.
>My observation suggests most with such scooters are likely to be old
>enough for a 60+ Oyster anyway. Most younger people seem to have
>fairly obvious conditions so those on the fiddle are probably minimal.

Probably not that many, but I did see a fit 30yr old delivering pizza
flyers from a large pile carried on a mobility scooter once.

>With wheelchairs you would also have the difficulty of checking the
>card of someone who has boarded at the rear doors and won't be able to
>get near the driver.
>
>>>>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:09:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <pegfqgdvhogujdojld1la6idac32145aev@4ax.com>, at 18:59:56 on
>Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>>>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>
>>>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>
>>>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>>>Freedom Pass.
>>>
>>>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>>>
>>They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.
>
>As you well know, the Freedom Pass has much wider availability than a
>regional ENCTS bus pass.
>
That depends on which version you have and where and when you are
trying to use it.

>>It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
>>own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
>>common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
>>interpretation of what is your usual residence.
>>
>>>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>>>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>>>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>>>
>>No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
>>with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
>>bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.
>>
>>"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
>>trams."
>>https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets
>
>Does that include people illegally using mobility scooters, because they
>aren't officially invalids?
>
You don't need official approval to be an invalid.

>>>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

In message <lf1gqgturl00lnhudm3nlgugvo8i8o8euj@4ax.com>, at 08:52:41 on
Thu, 2 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:09:57 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <pegfqgdvhogujdojld1la6idac32145aev@4ax.com>, at 18:59:56 on
>>Wed, 1 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 06:17:02 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <lqtaqgpa9poukvbekr1i7dr087rk4ps4d8@4ax.com>, at 01:03:12 on
>>>>Tue, 30 Nov 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> In the case of a disabled friend of mine it happens too often when a
>>>>>>> barrier is open or there is no barrier and there is no clear
>>>>>>> indication that a touch in/out has been unsuccesful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How many times have they been prosecuted?
>>>>>>
>>>>>None, it causes a maximum fare. There is an element of "getting out of
>>>>>here" so commencing a journey isn't done with as much hurry. I suspect
>>>>>if a failed touch-in led to a discussion with an RPI then most would
>>>>>realise they were dealing with someone who really ought to have a
>>>>>Freedom Pass.
>>>>
>>>>How does someone living outside London get a Freedom Pass?
>>>>
>>>They don't, if appropriate they get a card valid on buses in England.
>>
>>As you well know, the Freedom Pass has much wider availability than a
>>regional ENCTS bus pass.
>>
>That depends on which version you have and where and when you are
>trying to use it.

Can you cite any which give free travel on the tube in London?

>>>It can get complicated if more than one address is involved (e.g. your
>>>own and a relative's) but ISTR councils usually manage to use their
>>>common sense in the (deliberate?) absence of a rigid legal
>>>interpretation of what is your usual residence.
>>>
>>>>One of the party I'm buying tickets for this week has a Blue Badge, I
>>>>wonder if they took that with them they'd get free travel on the tube
>>>>(for themselves if not a person pushing the wheelchair)?
>>>>
>>>No but IIRC the instructions in the "Big Red Book" effectively do away
>>>with the need to possess (never mind show) an appropriate pass on a
>>>bus if you turn up in a wheelchair or are obviously blind.
>>>
>>>"All wheelchair and mobility scooter users travel free on buses and
>>>trams."
>>>https://tfl.gov.uk/transport-accessibility/fares-and-tickets
>>
>>Does that include people illegally using mobility scooters, because they
>>aren't officially invalids?
>>
>You don't need official approval to be an invalid.

In theory if you aren't an invalid, you aren't supposed to use the
concessions given to invalid carriages (of which mobility scooters are
nowadays one of the most visible incarnations).

>>>>This isn't so much about the money, as the accessibility issues.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
> not that much of a thing round here).
>

For which journeys, for example?

(I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
for example).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>
>For which journeys, for example?
>
>(I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
>for example).

I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
e-ticket I suppose).

Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).

Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
network by about four years ago].

Nice try, but no cigar.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the machine is
>>> broken I often saw them taking a photo with their phone (no, m-tickets
>>
>> For which journeys, for example?
>>
>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return e-ticket,
>> for example).
>
> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
> e-ticket I suppose).
>
> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>
> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
> network by about four years ago].
>
> Nice try, but no cigar.

What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?